One Piece - Chapter 661 [manga]

[yakumo-chan]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Zoro and Sanji
You know, Just my opinion, I have always thought Zoro was more powerful then Sanji. In the beginning it seemed they were equal but further on Oda started treating Zoro different. Like Water 7 when Ussop left and the incident with Kuma on Moria's Island. Second Zoro always takeing on the second in command all the time. Zoro to me is like the Rayleigh of the crew.

me too, I also think that Zoro is more powerful than Luffy, since he absorbed all the pain of Luffy from Kuma,
which means the endurance of Zoro is much better than Luffy.
I mean how could he still be alive after taking all that pain??

just an opinion

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Jouten

Maybe Zoro will learn Haki or already knows the basics of Haki, because he is the first mate and resembles Rayleigh in Luffy's Crew and because Tashigi learned it, but I highly doubt Sanji will get Haki. I just don't see where Sanji is supposed to get the skill from. It's debatable if Ivan even had Haki and I doubt he will learn Haki if he doesn't have it by now.

Seriously if there are any more people who get Haki after the time skip, who didn't have it before (like any of the Supernovae), I'm gonna ragequit OP, because it makes Luffy's absence for two years completely pointless and ridiculous. Zoro is the only one and really the only one of the SH besides Luffy who MAYBE has learned a grasp of Haki, assuming Mihawk even has it.

are you saying that zoro is the straw hats' first mate? i'm pretty sure a lot of people would contest that. oda has never claimed such a thing. a lot of people are comparing him to rayleigh but i see very few similarities. he does act like the second in command but unless oda says so, we can't simply assume that. i doubt oda would choose a first mate for luffy. whitebeard had none, instead he had division commanders.

like i said, busoshoku haki is not that difficult to learn. the amazons in the isle of women know how to use it. it's the most common type of haki. most of the marine officers have it because it's the only thing that can be used against logia users and it's quite useful as a defensive technique as well. i don't doubt that zoro or sanji would have learned it or at least the basics of it, or try to learn it in the future. as strong as they have become, i doubt they'd be able to put a dent on any of the elite logia users without it. they need that type of haki if they want to survive in the new world.

the training that luffy went through for two years is kinda different though, he learned all three types of haki and very few people are known to have learned all three. i don't see what's so unbelievable if guys like law, for example, have busoshoku haki or even kenbunshoku haki. but i would find it unbelievable if he also happened to have all three types of haki like luffy.

me too, I also think that Zoro is more powerful than Luffy, since he absorbed all the pain of Luffy from Kuma,
which means the endurance of Zoro is much better than Luffy.
I mean how could he still be alive after taking all that pain??

don't underestimate the strength of a human heart. physical pain can be withstood, it can be overcome. it's just mind over matter. zoro's will to live is so strong that he was able to overcome the physical torment he endured.

[SOGESNAKE]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Zoro and Sanji
You know, Just my opinion, I have always thought Zoro was more powerful then Sanji. In the beginning it seemed they were equal but further on Oda started treating Zoro different. Like Water 7 when Ussop left and the incident with Kuma on Moria's Island. Second Zoro always takeing on the second in command all the time. Zoro to me is like the Rayleigh of the crew.

I'd agree that Zoro IS stronger than Sanji, but Sanji easily makes up for it with his speed~

[Mateus]

Originally Posted by aohige

It's here.

Probably gonna be posted everywhere soon.

Spoiler:

Law won. He has Smoker's heart now.

All I can say is uh-oh

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by ronin myael

like i said, busoshoku haki is not that difficult to learn. the amazons in the isle of women know how to use it. it's the most common type of haki. most of the marine officers have it because it's the only thing that can be used against logia users and it's quite useful as a defensive technique as well. i don't doubt that zoro or sanji would have learned it or at least the basics of it, or try to learn it in the future. as strong as they have become, i doubt they'd be able to put a dent on any of the elite logia users without it. they need that type of haki if they want to survive in the new world.

The amazons had the observation haki, not the armor haki.

And people still go past the point I was making.

It doesn't matter whether Zoro and Sanji had a haki teacher or not. If they never took the time to train their haki, they will not be able to use it effectively.

Furthermore, awakening haki on one's own seems to happen during stressful times... Which makes Sanji more likely to have learned a type of haki than Zoro. Since Sanji spent the most of his two years running away from gay people (which is how he learned, what was that skill again? Shigan?).

"sensing" enemies is a common warrior skill, you don't need haki for that.

[aohige]

No, the amazons had the amor haki.
The characteristics of imbuing haki into their arrows is the trait of CoA.

The one who used the observation haki, at least from what was shown to us readers, was one of the golgon sisters.
Whether or not other amazon could use CoO is not revealed, just assumed.

The amazon warriors were using CoA imbued arrows.
Whether they used it themselves or had higher ranked amzons imbue them for them is not explained.

My opinion? The ranking members of the Kuja pirates, the elites of the Amazons, probably all were fairly expert in either CoA or CoO, or both.

[Randrak42]

Dengar...check your facts before posting anything. Any point you try to make will just be overshadowed by the obvious mistakes...and you know people will jump on them first.

[Undertaker]

I don't know what you are expecting, but everyone has answered you question pretty clearly IMO.

But for your benefit,

To answer your post line by line then.

Originally Posted by Dengar

The amazons had the observation haki, not the armor haki.

Check your facts, as Aoihige has pointed out. Amazon are implied to have bunch of CoA users, at very least the ones on Kuja ship is able to use them.

Originally Posted by Dengar

And people still go past the point I was making.

what point? this?

Originally Posted by Dengar

It doesn't matter whether Zoro and Sanji had a haki teacher or not. If they never took the time to train their haki, they will not be able to use it effectively.

And what made you so sure that they haven't being training their Haki? While there is yet definitive facts to suggest otherwise as well, the simple logic would suggest that they "should" be able to. Besides we do know that at least Sanji, Zoro, and Robin is aware of the concept of Haki, it'll be highly illogical for Zoro and Sanji to know about it and decided not to acquired at least one for of it.

Originally Posted by Dengar

Furthermore, awakening haki on one's own seems to happen during stressful times... Which makes Sanji more likely to have learned a type of haki than Zoro. Since Sanji spent the most of his two years running away from gay people (which is how he learned, what was that skill again? Shigan?).

True, but again Rayleigh said himself that it is something that can be trained to brought out. The only one that can't be trained is CoC.

I mean, Luffy isn't stressful yet he still learned both CoO and CoA, If Rayliegh can teach him that what's to say that Mihawk or Iva can't do the same?

Originally Posted by Dengar

"sensing" enemies is a common warrior skill, you don't need haki for that.

Except so far most of those "sense" has been attribute to CoO in OP, warriors or not. Again Rayleigh said himself that CoO is basically the ability to drastically enhance the "sense" you are talking out.

As for normal sense of killing instinct or such that you are talking about, it only happens in short distance and only if the said subject is also giving off an aura. But that's really beside the point as OP has categorized it as part of CoO.

[Randrak42]

PS: You say it comes out during stressful times...but what about Luffy? His first real use of haki (unknown to him) was when he was fighting an oversized bull that posed no real threat to him...
Just standing next to Mihawk should be 100 times more stressful than that! Just because Coby needed to go mind break, doesn't mean that the same level of stress is needed for everyone...or that stress is even needed at all.

[marvelB]

Alrighty now, what say we postpone this whole debate for now in favor of the new thread?

[ronin myael]

oh, the others beat me to it! dang!

anyways, time for a new thread!

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

And what made you so sure that they haven't being training their Haki? While there is yet definitive facts to suggest otherwise as well, the simple logic would suggest that they "should" be able to. Besides we do know that at least Sanji, Zoro, and Robin is aware of the concept of Haki, it'll be highly illogical for Zoro and Sanji to know about it and decided not to acquired at least one for of it.

I said "if".