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Sixth · 2014-10-20, 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

So he going full Suzaku huh?

He IS SUZAKU. Always be and will.

It would be hilarious to see Slaine doing rape face when he slaughtering those poor Terran.

Some people vouched that Rayet will be the main force for Terran, and it would be delicious to see their heroine got torn apart by Slaine.

Either get Inaho back to live or die trying, Terran.

Thess · 2014-10-20, 14:01

Did I miss something? How come Slaine is Suzaku at all?

He doesn't consider himself Terran anymore, that was the crux of episode 12, he doesn't see them as his people on a subconscious level after Inaho shot him down in episode 7 and the random Versian soldier peptalk made him see the light about who his allies were: not the Terrans attacking him which was his mistake since episode 2. Don't get me wrong, because I like Suzaku, but the entire first half of the show was to push Slaine to become the hero Mars needed which was with the acknowledgement to crush the resistance of those who attempt against Vers needs and interests to survive which the director of the show calls a "great cause" no less.

Obviously this will involve fighting Terran forces when they endanger Mars interests and attack their headquarters (because they seem to be in the offensive in those audio clips). That's why I called that he was in a liminal state and shooting Inaho was an important rite of passage.

Marsala · 2014-10-20, 15:34

You know who else had a "great cause"? Hitler.

In fact, it's the same cause. Saazbaum wants lebensraum for Vers. But he also hates Hitler, i.e. Gilzeria, for inspiring all the hate and so wants to kill his innocent daughter in revenge. He's still going to fulfill Gilzeria's plan, just with himself (or Slaine) in charge of the new Empire. What a hero.

wisteria233 · 2014-10-20, 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsala

You know who else had a "great cause"? Hitler.

In fact, it's the same cause. Saazbaum wants lebensraum for Vers. But he also hates Hitler, i.e. Gilzeria, for inspiring all the hate and so wants to kill his innocent daughter in revenge. He's still going to fulfill Gilzeria's plan, just with himself (or Slaine) in charge of the new Empire. What a hero.

except that isn't what the series is even giving any evidence to going in that direction. There is trying to find comparisons and then there's drawing at straws, you guys are doing the latter.

Marsala · 2014-10-20, 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by wisteria233

except that isn't what the series is even giving any evidence to going in that direction. There is trying to find comparisons and then there's drawing at straws, you guys are doing the latter.

That's what Saazbaum was doing up through episode 12. It's not clear what he will do next, or if he is even still alive. But Saazbaum's "great cause" is monstrous.

leelee85 · 2014-10-20, 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsala

That's what Saazbaum was doing up through episode 12. It's not clear what he will do next, or if he is even still alive. But Saazbaum's "great cause" is monstrous.

Hell I don't know if Inaho is even alive as well as Sazzbaum All I am assuming is that the Princess is alive cause Slaine took her after getting shot and missing her vital organs

wisteria233 · 2014-10-20, 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsala

That's what Saazbaum was doing up through episode 12. It's not clear what he will do next, or if he is even still alive. But Saazbaum's "great cause" is monstrous.

Quote:

His maxim is essentially "I want to help the princess". That desire naturally continued to exist in his mind until the end of the story, but because of his meeting with Count Saazbaum, new values have grown inside of Slaine. Saazbaum is the powerful ringleader behind Asseylum's assassination attempt; as far as Slaine is concerned, he's an enemy he should be attacking. But to him there's a greater cause: "I want to improve the lives of the people residing on Mars". And so, touched by his way of thinking, inside of Slaine's head there's a conflict between "loyalty towards the princess" and "the great cause that Saazbaum stands for" that results in a waver in his values; I think that has something to do with saving Saazbaum's life during the final episode when he was about to be defeated by Inaho. However, as a consequence of that, one can say that Saazbaum, whose life he had saved, shooting Asseylum turned out to be an ironic ending.

Not the "great cause" that Aoki was talking about though.

leelee85 · 2014-10-20, 18:15

Yeah But is Asseylum really dead? My opinion I don't think so

Marsala · 2014-10-20, 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Not the "great cause" that Aoki was talking about though.

And Hitler just wanted to improve the lives of the Germans.

Thess · 2014-10-20, 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsala

You know who else had a "great cause"? Hitler.

In fact, it's the same cause. Saazbaum wants lebensraum for Vers. But he also hates Hitler, i.e. Gilzeria, for inspiring all the hate and so wants to kill his innocent daughter in revenge. He's still going to fulfill Gilzeria's plan, just with himself (or Slaine) in charge of the new Empire. What a hero.

If you want to go full Godwin, Asseylum is Martian Hitler's child and legacy, to be accurate, while Saazbaum is the dissident against Hitler and his heir.

I don't really get why are you even invoking Godwin's Law in this discussion. Slaine thinks his motive is noble and it is. He singled out what attracts him: improve the life of people in Vers. The actual parallel for the situation in the show is World War I, anyway.

eisai_haramasukoi · 2014-10-22, 05:07

What if Dr. Troyard is still alive somewhere in Vers?

wisteria233 · 2014-10-22, 08:11

After seeing full scans of the Slaine manga, I think that they'll probably show Dr. Troyard in the second half. But yeah on Slaine killing Trillram, I think his reaction may have been for a different reason. Though now the bird imagery makes more sense.

Thess · 2014-10-22, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by wisteria233

After seeing full scans of the Slaine manga, I think that they'll probably show Dr. Troyard in the second half. But yeah on Slaine killing Trillram, I think his reaction may have been for a different reason. Though now the bird imagery makes more sense.

It's pretty odd Slaine didn't harbor a grudge against Trillam and, even after all he did, he seemed pretty upset by having to kill him.

wisteria233 · 2014-10-22, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thess

It's pretty odd Slaine didn't harbor a grudge against Trillam and, even after all he did, he seemed pretty upset by having to kill him.

Maybe he wasn't really upset, just shocked that he actually killed his tormentor, because he thought himself as powerless to stand up to him. But the minute Trillram threatened his only friend that the gloves came off so to speak.

But also no wonder Saazbaum had no qualms about killing Cruhteo, Cruhteo broke his trust.

Thess · 2014-10-23, 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Maybe he wasn't really upset, just shocked that he actually killed his tormentor, because he thought himself as powerless to stand up to him. But the minute Trillram threatened his only friend that the gloves came off so to speak.

But also no wonder Saazbaum had no qualms about killing Cruhteo, Cruhteo broke his trust.

Why didn't Saazbaum take Slaine in himself? I think this is a plot hole if he dies and it's never explained.

Arya · 2014-10-23, 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thess

If you want to go full Godwin, Asseylum is Martian Hitler's child and legacy, to be accurate, while Saazbaum is the dissident against Hitler and his heir.

I don't really get why are you even invoking Godwin's Law in this discussion. Slaine thinks his motive is noble and it is. He singled out what attracts him: improve the life of people in Vers. The actual parallel for the situation in the show is World War I, anyway.

(A bit late as usual) I didn't know about Godwin's Law at all, and I don't care much to make comparisons with Nazi Germany either, but surely Saazbaum is a criminal responsible of a genocide, he has not explicitly aimed to the extermination of the human kind, but the result is the same. We could in fact assume that human kind's become an endangered species without sounding exaggerated.

And that's something I'd like to see and I'm expecting to be addressed sooner or later during S2. I don't know how or when, but it has to.
And about Slaine, it's also the reason I can't take well him being "touched by his [Saazbaum] way of thinking" at all as much as "the great cause that Saazbaum stands for" bit as explanation to save Saazbaum's life. Despite the "great cause" what he committed was atrocious and the fact that Slaine hadn't recognized it at all in his evaluations about the man detracts his character IMHO.
That's also why I think the director felt the necessity to justify him talking about "great cause" that sounds a bit of an odd choice of words, at least to me, given all the circumstances.

wisteria233 · 2014-10-23, 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arya

(A bit late as usual) I didn't know about Godwin's Law at all, and I don't care much to make comparisons with Nazi Germany either, but surely Saazbaum is a criminal responsible of a genocide, he has not explicitly aimed to the extermination of the human kind, but the result is the same. We could in fact assume that human kind's become an endangered species without sounding exaggerated.

And that's something I'd like to see and I'm expecting to be addressed sooner or later during S2. I don't know how or when, but it has to.
And about Slaine, it's also the reason I can't take well him being "touched by his [Saazbaum] way of thinking" at all as much as "the great cause that Saazbaum stands for" bit as explanation to save Saazbaum's life. Despite the "great cause" what he committed was atrocious and the fact that Slaine hadn't recognized it at all in his evaluations about the man detracts his character IMHO.
That's also why I think the director felt the necessity to justify him talking about "great cause" that sounds a bit of an odd choice of words, at least to me, given all the circumstances.

You're really drawing at straws.

Arya · 2014-10-23, 07:31

^ Since that was my key point, do you think that Saazbaum's didn't commit a genocide? Or if you prefer another word I can use the more generic mass murder.

wisteria233 · 2014-10-23, 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arya

^ Since that was my key point, do you think that Saazbaum's didn't commit a genocide? Or if you prefer another word I can use the more generic mass murder.

What you're arguing literally has nothing to do with it. Saazbaum is acting on revenge, but that's just him. An important thing to remember is that, even if Saazbaum wasn't there the very first episode shows us that the Knights had been itching to do start a war with Earth to begin with. How does recognizing that a society is messed up and needs help, condone genocide? Especially when by the way we were given no indication that Slaine actually condones Saazbaum's actions, especially when he made a point of saying that he doesn't.

Arya · 2014-10-23, 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by wisteria233

What you're arguing literally has nothing to do with it. Saazbaum is acting on revenge, but that's just him. An important thing to remember is that, even if Saazbaum wasn't there the very first episode shows us that the Knights had been itching to do start a war with Earth to begin with. How does recognizing that a society is messed up and needs help, condone genocide? Especially when by the way we were given no indication that Slaine actually condones Saazbaum's actions, especially when he made a point of saying that he doesn't.

The fact that other people shared his same feelings doesn't lessen the guilt or the gravity of his acts.

He committed mass murder. That was my point.
And by the way I didn't say Slaine condoned Saazbaum's, but that he didn't take it into account in that moment, but that is enough for me to judge him about his subsequent specifical action, namely saving Saazbaum's life.
So, starting from that, I'm expecting that they will address it in some way or another. I'm referring to the mass murder.

2014-10-20, 14:01	Link #2002
Thess Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010	Did I miss something? How come Slaine is Suzaku at all? He doesn't consider himself Terran anymore, that was the crux of episode 12, he doesn't see them as his people on a subconscious level after Inaho shot him down in episode 7 and the random Versian soldier peptalk made him see the light about who his allies were: not the Terrans attacking him which was his mistake since episode 2. Don't get me wrong, because I like Suzaku, but the entire first half of the show was to push Slaine to become the hero Mars needed which was with the acknowledgement to crush the resistance of those who attempt against Vers needs and interests to survive which the director of the show calls a "great cause" no less. Obviously this will involve fighting Terran forces when they endanger Mars interests and attack their headquarters (because they seem to be in the offensive in those audio clips). That's why I called that he was in a liminal state and shooting Inaho was an important rite of passage. __________________ *"Who* would understand you after I die? Who else would march forward by your side?"**

2014-10-20, 18:15	Link #2008
leelee85 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Atlanta,Ga	Yeah But is Asseylum really dead? My opinion I don't think so Last edited by leelee85; 2014-10-20 at 19:00.

2014-10-23, 07:31	Link #2018
Arya Senior Member Join Date: May 2004	^ Since that was my key point, do you think that Saazbaum's didn't commit a genocide? Or if you prefer another word I can use the more generic mass murder. __________________ *The meaning of things lies not in the things themselves, but in our attitude towards them.*

2014-10-20, 15:34	Link #2003
Marsala Delurker Join Date: Jan 2007	You know who else had a "great cause"? Hitler. In fact, it's the same cause. Saazbaum wants lebensraum for Vers. But he also hates Hitler, i.e. Gilzeria, for inspiring all the hate and so wants to kill his innocent daughter in revenge. He's still going to fulfill Gilzeria's plan, just with himself (or Slaine) in charge of the new Empire. What a hero.

2014-10-22, 05:07	Link #2011
eisai_haramasukoi Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014	What if Dr. Troyard is still alive somewhere in Vers?

2014-10-22, 08:11	Link #2012
wisteria233 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: New York, NY	After seeing full scans of the Slaine manga, I think that they'll probably show Dr. Troyard in the second half. But yeah on Slaine killing Trillram, I think his reaction may have been for a different reason. Though now the bird imagery makes more sense.