Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

@ Kusa-san

So going by your reasoning, it means all merchandise showing Kira, Athrun, Shinn + random characters (without obligatory canon poses with whoever they are paired with at the moment) just side by side together have them in a very intimate relationship (this goes for all those spreads they do of other anime, showing just the male leads without their intended canon pairings)? Also, while we're in the discussion of SEED Nova, it must ALSO mean that Shinn wearing that Lacus cosplay must have also happened canonically by your logic.

Why do you have such a strong bias toward Kira and Lacus ? They don't need to kiss to show their love. For example, at the end of the Destiny SE 4 when they hugged each other. At the end of the final plus, when Lacus laid her head on Kira's shoulder etc...

That's what I mean by that. It shows how much they love each other. It's not for nothing that so much peoples like them. It's a strong couple which doesn't need to kiss to show their love toward each other.

Seed Nova, even if it's mostly something funny, still showed us that Kira and Lacus are fully in love.

[monster]

Originally Posted by winter45

Your 2nd point of you sentence is debatable from character reactions alone. My last post is in regards...

Which reactions?

Which i wanted to make myself clear in regards to destiny that kira is most cases is the offender not defender, which later on he is forced to defend his crew/friends/loved ones AFTER his actions forced/convinced ZAFT in this case to hunt AA down.

Look at it this way:

As a leader of Orb, Cagalli is obviously in favor of Orb. And as her brother, it's not unusual for Kira to side with her. Therefore, when he saw the Minerva about to fire a shot at the Orb fleet, obviously Kira would do what he can to try to stop the Minerva.

So when you say that Kira is the offender, it seems irrelevant when, if you look at the big picture, Orb and ZAFT is already on opposing sides. In that instant, Kira taking a shot at the Minerva would be no different if another Orb pilot would do it.

Now i may have been confused if you ment *he wants to protect his loved ones* in terms of *interests* which I would understand your last reply clearer.

I meant both in terms of interest, like accompanying Cagalli in Destiny, and in terms of actually seeing his loved ones in danger, like protecting Lacus from her would-be killers or protecting his friends in Heliopolis.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by winter45

Problem i have with kira when using force is for the most part is on an emotional basis. Nothing wrong with that at all. Problem i have is that not thinking thru what would happen if he wishes to exercise is where i get frustrated. Possibly because my way of thinking as being a soldier is on a professional basis, emotional level is where things can bite you on the ass which was shown when AA forced ZAFT to hunt her down due to unwarranted interventions.

I could understand if kira was trying to defend his friends etc But in most instances AA has already provoked multiple factions during Destiny.

I don't think the way AA acted in GSD was wrong or anything. At frist, they didn't want to participate in all of that but :

- Dullindal attacked them
- Cagalli was compeltely manipulated by Yuna and his father

They just can't sit down because of that especially if they have the power to do something.

During the most part of GSD, AA only defended ORB against Zaft. 24-28-40. At the same time, they tried to also know what was Zaft true motive (Lacus).

And at the end of Destiny, Kira is a white cost while Lacus seems to be more or less in control of Zaft. Therfore, you can say that they will take full responsability for what they did.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by monster

Which reactions?

Facial, but that is subjective..

Originally Posted by monster

Look at it this way:

As a leader of Orb, Cagalli is obviously in favor of Orb. And as her brother, it's not unusual for Kira to side with her. Therefore, when he saw the Minerva about to fire a shot at the Orb fleet, obviously Kira would do what he can to try to stop the Minerva..

As much as the viewers are aware who AA represents it was not official by their own government. In early engagements AA was not ID classified by both Zaft and ORB forces/goverment. So naturally ZAFT has just been fired upon from an unknown Target, while ORB official forces have no IDC on AA.

In this sense he is clearly the offender

Which does fall to my reply

Originally Posted by winter45

Now i may have been confused if you ment *he wants to protect his loved ones* in terms of *interests* which I would understand your last reply clearer.

Which is what i thought you ment originally but wasn't quite sure.

Originally Posted by monster

So when you say that Kira is the offender, it seems irrelevant when, if you look at the big picture, Orb and ZAFT is already on opposing sides. In that instant, Kira taking a shot at the Minerva would be no different if another Orb pilot would do it.

Was never against the fact ORB is fighting zaft, Last i checked during these engagements AA is not recognized as part of ORB. Even ORB leadership announced that AA is the enemy. Sure they may be fighting for ORB but are not recognized as part of ORB.

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

I don't think the way AA acted in GSD was wrong or anything. At frist, they didn't want to participate in all of that but :

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

- Dullindal attacked them

We have evidence but not the proof... heard this one before

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

- Cagalli was compeltely manipulated by Yuna and his father

Ever kidnapped an government official? Some countries in our current world would have a trial that lasts 5 minutes and you lose your head.

Guess your sense of actions of not doing wrong are different to mine.

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

They just can't sit down because of that especially if they have the power to do something.

Kidnapping is a bit extreme dont you think?

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

During the most part of GSD, AA only defended ORB against Zaft. 24-28-40.

Defended ORB by shooting ORB.. interesting concept of defending.

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

And at the end of Destiny, Kira is a white cost while Lacus seems to be more or less in control of Zaft. Therfore, you can say that they will take full responsability for what they did.

Elaborate *Take full responsibility*

[monster]

Originally Posted by winter45

As much as the viewers are aware who AA represents it was not official by their own government. In early engagements AA was not ID classified by both Zaft and ORB forces/goverment. So naturally ZAFT has just been fired upon from an unknown Target, while ORB official forces have no IDC on AA.

In this sense he is clearly the offender

Was never against the fact ORB is fighting zaft, Last i checked during these engagements AA is not recognized as part of ORB. Even ORB leadership announced that AA is the enemy. Sure they may be fighting for ORB but are not recognized as part of ORB.

Nevertheless, from Kira's perspective, it still fits what I said that Kira has accepted the use of force as part of "protecting his loved ones." Orb's recognition of his actions is irrelevant in that regard.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

Why do you have such a strong bias toward Kira and Lacus ? They don't need to kiss to show their love. For example, at the end of the Destiny SE 4 when they hugged each other. At the end of the final plus, when Lacus laid her head on Kira's shoulder etc...

That's what I mean by that. It shows how much they love each other. It's not for nothing that so much peoples like them. It's a strong couple which doesn't need to kiss to show their love toward each other.

Seed Nova, even if it's mostly something funny, still showed us that Kira and Lacus are fully in love.

They are fully in love? OK.

So...how would you explain Athrun's own insistence that Kira has to sortie out in the Strike Rouge to get to Lacus in time? You know, he was practically shoving Kira in the suit so just he could get to her. Athrun HAD to tell him to go save Lacus.

How about when Kira almost died when Freedom almost exploded, when Shinn destroyed the Freedom in Angel Down? Lacus didn't sense that. For having a "New Type" flash when Kira really wasn't in great danger during the last episode, this shows how they are so fully aware of each other that they are so fully in love with one another.

Oh, before I forget, Kira didn't push Lacus out of the assassin's gun's way until Haro ALERTED him there is a gun pointed at Lacus.

And all the time they have spent their time apart (when Lacus went to space), not once is there something that showed that Kira thought of Lacus specially, or even Lacus thinking about him specially.

And yeah, there's that evidence that even after 2 whole years, Kira was in some way aloof and distant to Lacus in the orphanage. I still remember that scene where Lacus was just staring out at Kira sitting in that chair (in episode 11). She could actually try cheering him up you know, calm him or soothe him? Yeah, they're so in love with each other, absolutely.

Also, trying to use a fan disc to point out something canon is also like you're saying fillers (they are in the same sense silly) point out canon stuff and say that such things really happened (when in canon, nothing of the sort happened). At least try to point out evidence you can find in the series itself for your arguments.

[monster]

All of is that simply mean that they're not as physically intimate with each other as some other couples might be. But at the very least, Kira and Lacus obviously cares for one another. And it's not a stretch to say that they're in love with each other.

And why are you bringing up some newtype stuff?

[Gundamx]

So you are saying they are in love only if they have body relation?
You do know that there is many people who don't love each other yet they have it, right?

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by monster

All of is that simply mean that they're not as physically intimate with each other as some other couples might be. But at the very least, Kira and Lacus obviously cares for one another. And it's not a stretch to say that they're in love with each other.

And why are you bringing up some newtype stuff?

Don't tell me you forgot Lacus' special reaction in the final confrontation (in SEED Destiny) when Kira was somehow "endangered"? If it's just some kind of special SEED mode Lacus only has...then...

As for their supposed closeness, can you please enumerate those instances that actually showed they cared about one another? We only have a few episodes to show up for that, and it feels so out of place sometimes I was actually wondering if it was really supposed to be there. If you can actually try to explain those situations I have posted for Kusa-San's reply...maybe we'll talk.

Originally Posted by Gundamx

So you are saying they are in love only if they have body relation?
You do know that there is many people who don't love each other yet they have it, right?

What I'm trying to say is, if you have read through my post, is actually trying to relate what actions/body language/intimate moments those 2 have in the series to even constitute a supposedly deep love for one another. I am aware that people can love one another even without being so physical with each other. But given those situations I have pointed out within the series, it's like we know they're only in love just because Morosawa/Fukuda said so - without giving proper or enough evidence.

Thing is, we have scant evidence...or maybe that's just stretching it out too much already.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Don't tell me you forgot Lacus' special reaction in the final confrontation (in SEED Destiny) when Kira was somehow "endangered"? If it's just some kind of special SEED mode Lacus only has...then...

I don't know. But just because there were no other examples of those sensing stuff doesn't mean anything.

As for their supposed closeness, can you please enumerate those instances that actually showed they cared about one another? We only have a few episodes to show up for that, and it feels so out of place sometimes I was actually wondering if it was really supposed to be there.

- They chose to live together.
- Kira wanted to go with Lacus to space.
- Their reaction when they finally met in the Eternal.
- Kira finally joining ZAFT when Lacus finally decides to go back to PLANTs.

If you can actually try to explain those situations I have posted for Kusa-San's reply...maybe we'll talk.

There's no need, none of the situations you mentioned is proof that Kira and Lacus are not in love with one another. Like I said, at best, they simply showed that they're not as physically intimate. But don't confuse that to mean they don't love each other.

[Gundamx]

And

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeWWce3geIM

...etc.

[aeriolewinters]

They chose to live together.

Kira's from Orb, it's his house. Lacus is just there freeloadin'

Kira wanted to go with Lacus to space.

episodes later, he's not worried anymore. Thank you for shoddy writing, moronsawa.

Their reaction when they finally met in the Eternal.

You mean when Athrun had to prod Kira to saving her, great.

Kira finally joining ZAFT when Lacus finally decides to go back to PLANTs.

Yeah, it's because Kira wants to take responsibility for it, personally, nothing more, nothing less.

There's no need, none of the situations you mentioned is proof that Kira and Lacus are not in love with one another. Like I said, at best, they simply showed that they're not as physically intimate. But don't confuse that to mean they don't love each other.

They're written badly, that's all. All you have to say is that the couple does not have the strength as one. Had Moronsawa given Lacus flaws, and had them exceed those flaws, she would've been a better pair for Kira. But then, !perfectness happened.

Ever wonder why people hate Bella? Ask yourselves that.

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Kira's from Orb, it's his house. Lacus is just there freeloadin'

No, it's not, they lived with Malchio.

episodes later, he's not worried anymore. Thank you for shoddy writing, moronsawa.

Why does that matter? Because they chose not to focus on Kira thinking about Lacus? They have enough on their hands as it is.

You mean when Athrun had to prod Kira to saving her, great.

So? Athrun being more worried than Kira about Lacus on one occasion does not mean Kira does not love Lacus.

Yeah, it's because Kira wants to take responsibility for it, personally, nothing more, nothing less.

Responsibility for what?

They're written badly, that's all. All you have to say is that the couple does not have the strength as one. Had Moronsawa given Lacus flaws, and had them exceed those flaws, she would've been a better pair for Kira. But then, !perfectness happened.

Ever wonder why people hate Bella? Ask yourselves that.

Irrelevant, I'm not here to argue whether you should like the couple. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that they're not in love.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by monster

Nevertheless, from Kira's perspective, it still fits what I said that Kira has accepted the use of force as part of "protecting his loved ones.".

Thats ok, ive posted what i originally thought you may have implied which is the same line of thinking i have.

Originally Posted by monster

Orb's recognition of his actions is irrelevant in that regard.

Since you replied to my non-kira perspective reply.

Disagree, not everyone shares the same view in the involved parties (both characters and political). And as a viewer i can be neutral and look at all sides POV and my make up my own mind who the offender and defender is.




Not want to get involved with the whole kiraxlacus talk here

i actually thought it was a platonic relation or at best, old couple relationship.

[monster]

Originally Posted by winter45

Disagree, not everyone shares the same view in the involved parties (both characters and political). And as a viewer i can be neutral and look at all sides POV and my make up my own mind who the offender and defender is.

I meant Kira doesn't care whether Orb thinks he's acting as part of Orb. To Kira, he is part of Orb and he's acting under Cagalli's watch.

[winter45]

@monster

that makes more sense thanks for clearing that up.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by winter45

We have evidence but not the proof... heard this one before

They were not sure at the moment yes, but it was enough

Ever kidnapped an government official? Some countries in our current world would have a trial that lasts 5 minutes and you lose your head.

Yes but soon after that, Cagalli said herself that she sided with AA. Futhermore not all Orb military are siding with Yuna and his father.

Guess your sense of actions of not doing wrong are different to mine.

Trying to stop a war is not wrong for me yes. And trying to defend our country which is attacked is not wrong either.

Kidnapping is a bit extreme dont you think?

Maybe it was a bit exterme yes but you should not focus only on that. futhermore, after that Cagalli explained her situation.

Defended ORB by shooting ORB.. interesting concept of defending.

Orb is not the military but the country. Futhermore, as I said Yuna and his fater =! all Orb military.

Elaborate *Take full responsibility*

They defeated Dullindal and it's thanks to them that he's not here anymore. But it's also because of them that Zaft has no ruler anymore. Therefore, Lacus and Kira will be here to help Zaft in its transition of power.

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

They are fully in love? OK.

So...how would you explain Athrun's own insistence that Kira has to sortie out in the Strike Rouge to get to Lacus in time? You know, he was practically shoving Kira in the suit so just he could get to her. Athrun HAD to tell him to go save Lacus.

Did you forget the promise he made to Lacus in ep26 ?

Futhermore, why are you always reffering to the same argument again and again ? How do YOU explain what I said before ?

How about when Kira almost died when Freedom almost exploded, when Shinn destroyed the Freedom in Angel Down? Lacus didn't sense that. For having a "New Type" flash when Kira really wasn't in great danger during the last episode, this shows how they are so fully aware of each other that they are so fully in love with one another.

Yes and ? What's your point ? So because Lacus didn't sense Kira from the Eternal make her not in love with him ?

Oh, before I forget, Kira didn't push Lacus out of the assassin's gun's way until Haro ALERTED him there is a gun pointed at Lacus.

WTF ? Dman this haro without him Lacus would be dezad just like Kira planned

And all the time they have spent their time apart (when Lacus went to space), not once is there something that showed that Kira thought of Lacus specially, or even Lacus thinking about him specially.

Lol what ? Because Kira and Lacus are the center of the world and Destiny ? Because you think that they should focus on Kira and Lacus thought during destiny instead of the story or other characters ? Did you forget their beautiful reunion in ep 39 ? Did you forget their superb seperation in ep 26 ? Did you forget the story actually ?

And yeah, there's that evidence that even after 2 whole years, Kira was in some way aloof and distant to Lacus in the orphanage. I still remember that scene where Lacus was just staring out at Kira sitting in that chair (in episode 11). She could actually try cheering him up you know, calm him or soothe him? Yeah, they're so in love with each other, absolutely.

Hey it's bot like Kira was broken from GS ! Oh wait....

Sorry, but your argumentation make no sense at all. You're not proving anything and you're denying all the scenes that showed them completly in love like they didn't exist at all.

At least try to point out evidence you can find in the series itself for your arguments.

You're saying that to me ? Serioulsy ? You didn't point out evidence and you didn't even answer about the scenes between Kira and Lcuas that I talked about.


Now, i f you want I can show you the official relationship chart ?

[Rising Dragon]

Let's face it, "ideal Japanese relationship" or not, KiraxLacus was not developed properly or written all that well. I know a lot of you are going to hate hearing that, but it's the truth. SEED, like so many other Gundam shows, had poor romantic writing.

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Let's face it, "ideal Japanese relationship" or not, KiraxLacus was not developed properly or written all that well. I know a lot of you are going to hate hearing that, but it's the truth. SEED, like so many other Gundam shows, had poor romantic writing.

I agree with this.
There's a few relationships that were written well, or at least better than the average (MwuxMurrue, KiraxFllay- until she died, that was unnecessary as well as probably DearkaxMiriallia just because it didn't work out and was just written off as such which is pretty realistic for real relationships. Doesn't happen often enough in anime), but KiraxLacus is one of those that wasn't done well.
Bad writing plays a role in it, but mostly that Lacus isn't done well as a character thanks to Morosawa's idiocy that made the poor girl a big fat self insert.

Shame, because personally I do like the couple- not as much as KiraxFllay maybe but it could've been much better than it was in the show.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Let's face it, "ideal Japanese relationship" or not, KiraxLacus was not developed properly or written all that well. I know a lot of you are going to hate hearing that, but it's the truth. SEED, like so many other Gundam shows, had poor romantic writing.

Your truth not mine.