Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[lordgemini]

@Narutaro

tsk,tsk tsk, yes, maybe he is surprised, but not for the existance of the thrones, maybe he is surprised because they show themselves in this moment, when they should appear later. Like the orbital sniper an the existance of his lacus gundam, it's was early to show them, but all is impressions, let's wait until tomorrow ans see what happen. As we know, not even Veda can predict the whims of the people

[Mihaeru Trinity]

well i guess we will know tomorrow. but i just cant wait to hear the voices of the throne pilots and see them in action.

[Onizuka-GTO]

Originally Posted by lordgemini

not even Veda can predict the whims of the people

or maybe it can?


maybe that's why it choose those people to be the pilots of the Gundam? because they fit it's ideal psychological profile?

[JediNight]

Saw a 2.5gb satellite stream for Ep15 on SHARE lol ... wonder how that looks compared to the Conclave release.

[darkprimus]

First off I apologize it took me so long to respond, due to the weather we've been having service outages where I live.

Originally Posted by DJ_RockmanX

@darkprimus: I think you assume too much about Dynames' abilities to pinpoint such small targets from orbit. Dynames took care of ground-to-space sniping just fine sure, but that was hitting drifting parts of a space station. You also can't assume the same variables in the reverse process.

And granted that it was possible and that things play out according to the way you predict, the real problem I have with your plan is that you still leave the Gundam Meisters hanging out to dry after all of that battling.

At least Sumeragi's plan exploited every chance they had to evacuate all the Meisters to safety.

You realize it's harder to fire up than down? When shooting up you're fighting gravity and that requires more energy, when firing down gravity is working with you requiring less energy. There is no real difference between ground-to-space and space-to-ground besides that point. The extreme distance, Earth's rotation, etc... are all the same either way. Also, he might have been firing at some drifting space station, but he wasn't blindly firing at it, he still had specific targets (the connector bracings between the sections).

Heck in terms of movement speed the terrorists are probably moving slower than that drifting piece considering Sergei and Allelujah had both been accelerating it. Also, I'm not even saying for him to attack from orbit, I was saying the upper atmosphere, although more likely somewhere between the Mesosphere and Stratosphere. I mean, even without any special equipment Dynames is able to fire through the cloud layers giving him a range somewhere between 2-13 km. In the first ep he uses this range to support Setsuna and accurately hits mobile suits moving at high speed to engage Setsuna.

You can actually see as Setsuna crosses through the cloud layers throughout the fight scene. From the looks of it he ends up above Cirrus clouds, so the range would tend towards the upper end. Yet in episode 15 Kurios and Dynames descend below the cloud layer to attack. Why? If you look at the scene the clouds aren't dense enough in the area to have prevented Lockon from attacking on high. It was bad planning of not taking their abilities into full consideration.

As far as leaving them out to dry, it is necessary. Given the number of mobile units they have to split up and escape on their own to divide the enemy numbers otherwise they will be overwhelmed by sheer numbers (just as they were in the episode). The plan I gave still has them working together up until they have whitled the enemy numbers down to a few squads, something each Gundam has been able to handle on its own.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Is Dynames' weapon even capable of orbital fire?

From the looks of it he needs quite an awful lot of heavy equipment to carry around and stability in order to fire. It also looks like he needs an outside power source as well. Ground to space is one thing but reversing is another.

It doesn't need that much heavy equipment. From the looks of it a secondary sensor unit for the extreme range, a bracing unit to deal with the recoil and provide support in otherwise flat terrain and either a new gun or some kind of add-on for his existing gun to increase its range and power. It's not possible to have an outside power source though since there are only the 4 solar furnaces (as far as they knew at the time) so no other source of GN particles exists. Also like I said before, it's easier to fire down than up.

Originally Posted by Narutaro

I agree, I don't think Dynames can snipe from space. the episode where he have the space sniping, he have big equipment to aid him and probably recharge the power of the beam and for other purposes.

if space to ground sniping is really possible to the accuracy of hitting only one mobile suit, they really have no need to ever go down to earth, just spam space sniping for every mission and they'll be safe.

sorry darkprimus, I skim you long post and find out it all revolve around space sniping from above, which I think is not possible. and since I already post my reasoning on why it's not possible, I don't read the rest of your post in detail.

Well from episode 5 it appears to take in the neighborhood of 20-30 seconds for the super long range sniper beam rifle to recharge. Also, it's not a solution. It takes time (no spam fire), it can't attack an opponent if there is sufficient cover due to weather conditions or man-made obstructions and it will give away your position. If everyone knows that Dynames will be sniping from orbit then they can wait for it to happen and attack like in the Gundam capture episode, making Dynames a great big target and needing lots of support and protection. It's more or less a 1 time use strategy.

I already stated my reasons for why it could work with Lockon attacking from high up.

[AnimeFangirl]

...I don't get it. The Gundams were shelled for 15 hours and were still intact. If they're that hardy, why didn't they just shrug off all the enemy attacks and escape into the stratosphere right at the start of battle? Why land and stand around gasping for breath? Manufactured drama at its worst. But it kept me interested so I gave it 7/10.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by AnimeFangirl

...I don't get it. The Gundams were shelled for 15 hours and were still intact. If they're that hardy, why didn't they just shrug off all the enemy attacks and escape into the stratosphere right at the start of battle? Why land and stand around gasping for breath? Manufactured drama at its worst. But it kept me interested so I gave it 7/10.

They're not capable of flying into space on their own and that'd be a tall order precisely because they were getting shelled. Every time they'd try to fly, enemy bombardment would knock them down.

[AnimeFangirl]

Then keep retreating slowly while tanking the enemy fire. In 15 hours (!!!) they could have gotten somewhere, especially with the GN field up like Dynames showed. Their Gundams were barely even scratched. Move towards the nearest body of water and swim away. [Edit: actually an even better idea is for them walk towards the AEU/HRL/Union command centers. The enemies will have to let up on their missile barrage while you're in the middle of their base, making it easier to fight back]

Furthermore, instead of firing blindly into the sky, Tieria should have located the various command centers and blasted them to smithereens. A snake with its head cut off is as good as dead. That's what I thought Exia and Virtue were standing by to do from the start. After all in Moralia the retreat signal only went up when headquarters was attacked, so there's a precedent for attacking the command center. Sumeragi stinks like a fish as a combat advisor.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by AnimeFangirl

Then keep retreating slowly while tanking the enemy fire. In 15 hours (!!!) they could have gotten somewhere, especially with the GN field up like Dynames showed. Their Gundams were barely even scratched. Move towards the nearest body of water and swim away. [Edit: actually an even better idea is for them walk towards the AEU/HRL/Union command centers. The enemies will have to let up on their missile barrage while you're in the middle of their base, making it easier to fight back]

Furthermore, instead of firing blindly into the sky, Tieria should have located the various command centers and blasted them to smithereens. A snake with its head cut off is as good as dead. That's what I thought Exia and Virtue were standing by to do from the start. After all in Moralia the retreat signal only went up when headquarters was attacked, so there's a precedent for attacking the command center. Sumeragi stinks like a fish as a combat advisor.

They can't afford to tank anything. The second they stumble and go down, the enemy would close in and bombard them. The general plan was to slowly beat their way out with some outside support like Tieria blowing a trench, but they were too outnumbered and surrounded. The GN Field isn't all-powerful and they can't attack when it's up. Using it would just allow the enemy to close in and swarm them. Swim away? In the desert?

The command centers located far away and no doubt guarded to the teeth? You do know it's not required for command centers to be located in the battlefield right?

[AnimeFangirl]

That's why they should have located and targeted the command centers right from the start. And "armed to the teeth" is nothing in the face of Tieria's bombardment.
- Guys take out the terrorists
- Enemies attack
- Tieria and Setsuna take out the largest and most troublesome command center.
- Mission continues as before, but with an enemy with vastly reduced efficiency and limited ability to plan and resupply.

A mission of this size and scale must have one or more commanding centers to keep the mission coordinated, to resupply arms and give the enemy a place to standby between shifts. We saw at least two, one with the female commander and another where Graham was standing by. Being the clever strategist that Sumeragi is, she already had the guys map out their locations and plan measures to take them out and then... wait what? She didn't even think of that?

And that's why I say Sumeragi stinks like rotten durian fruit.

And I don't buy the "It's all over if they stumble" thing. They have GN fields and they stayed standing for 15 hours. I watched episode 16 and

Spoiler for spoiler:

they were flying just fine after all that bombardment.

And they couldn't even take a few steps? Even if you have to crawl to a command center it's better than staying put.

Swim away = I saw some ships in the episode so I assume they're not too far from the coast. I could be wrong on that one. Btw that reminds me, the trench was a TERRIBLE idea. Instead of being able to escape anywhere in the desert, now your crews are stuck in a pit and limited to only going forward or back, and there's a big line on the map that says "here we are, come get us!" Sumeragi stinks like... well, you get the picture.

[Rising Dragon]

Yes, they were standing for 15 hours. 15 hours of straight combat; the pilots are exhausted at that point and no longer up to par. They're still only human. Kind of the objective of the combined military force; they're trying to beat them into submission via attrition.

[AnimeFangirl]

That's why you get out of there before 15 hours of time elapse.... is the theory.

Actually my fundamental mistake is in assuming Sumeragi had any kind of plan to begin with. I don't think she thought of anything except "fly in low and hope you make it out in one piece." Seriously, a trench? So the enemy can just stand on the edges and shoot you while you can't even dodge left or right?

Hasn't she heard of simple reconnaissance? There's nowhere to hide in the desert. A few flyovers by Dynames and Kyrios as high up in the air as possible should be enough to spot most of the enemies, their types of armament, their chief concentrations, likely weaknesses, etc. Return to base, formulate a real strategy and THEN attack.

They act so surprised to see a few missiles, haven't they seen missiles before? Aren't they expecting some kind of attack? Didn't they learn anything from the Ptolemaeus fiasco? Gyaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!

....And yet I'm still watching. Time for episode 17.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

I think AnimeFangirl has a point.

I love 00 but I myself always think this episode dropped the ball a little bit in portraying how intense and hard-hitting the bombardment was to the point where it made the Gundam-team cornered. You can literally see a lot of open spaces in the sky for any of the Gundam to fly off while enduring the bombardment a bit and regroup at the altitude where the allied forces can’t reach you. They don’t need to fly into space to regroup and assess the situation. If the Flags & Enacts followed them up there, the Gundams can always waste them.

That said, I’m not trying to resurrect the fierce argument that happened ten years ago in this thread. A good number of people who like and dislike how the battle is executed in this episode had already said what’s needed to be said. Both sides already presented good arguments in the previous pages of this thread. All we have to do is read them (again) .

[Rising Dragon]

The problem with the argument is that everyone's forgetting just how many bodies were being thrown at the Meisters. The Gundams have superior mobility, not superior speed--we saw several times in that episode alone where Flags and Enacts and whatever else were matching or even exceeding the speeds of the Gundams.

There's also the munitions issue, in how they were filling the sky with it every time they moved. Had they gone into the air to try and escape, they'd just get hounded by aerial MS and blasted with yet more missiles. As powerful as the Gundams' armor was, it wasn't infallible. Dump enough rounds into a point and it'll break eventually. As seen with the Virtue, they can be dismantled with melee attacks--Virtue has the best armor, didn't stop Tieria from realizing that the Taozi could put its blade through a limb.

And finally, there's all the physics involved. Sure, GN-Armor and GN-Fields are strong. Doesn't stop the rounds that connect from throwing the pilots around their cockpits. Especially if they crash an entire mobile suit into them, like Graham did against the Dynames. It wears at their strength, and they can only react so fast and in so many directions at once. So no, retreating straight into the air is actually a really bad choice in this situation.

Especially if they start losing weapons in the air. God knows Setsuna has a bad habit of flinging his swords every which direction!

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

There's also the munitions issue, in how they were filling the sky with it every time they moved. Had they gone into the air to try and escape, they'd just get hounded by aerial MS and blasted with yet more missiles. As powerful as the Gundams' armor was, it wasn't infallible. Dump enough rounds into a point and it'll break eventually. As seen with the Virtue, they can be dismantled with melee attacks--Virtue has the best armor, didn't stop Tieria from realizing that the Taozi could put its blade through a limb.

Regarding the bolded part, that’s my main problem with the episode. It simply doesn’t look like it. That’s why I said they dropped the ball a bit in executing/presenting just how fierce the bombardment is. And I'm surely not alone in that sentiment.

Another problem is that we never saw the Gundams putting real coordinated effort to blast off to the sky early in the battle when they were still in prime condition. Maybe use Virtue as an umbrella or something. Gundams may not have the best speed but they are fast thanks to the GN particles that enable them to float in the sky and reduce friction. High altitude might not guarantee total safety, but it sure as hell a lot safer (thanks to GN drive) than the ground. Once the artillery can't reach them, all they have to deal with are just flying MSs & missiles, not the entire allied forces .

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

The problem with the argument is that everyone's forgetting just how many bodies were being thrown at the Meisters. The Gundams have superior mobility, not superior speed--we saw several times in that episode alone where Flags and Enacts and whatever else were matching or even exceeding the speeds of the Gundams.

The sourcebooks totally support this (specifically 2307-2312 Mission Complete book), as it's noted that the Flag and Enacts are even faster than the Ahead in Flight Mode.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Another problem is that we never saw the Gundams putting real coordinated effort to blast off to the sky early in the battle when they were still in prime condition. Maybe use Virtue as an umbrella or something. Gundams may not have the best speed but they are fast thanks to the GN particles that enable them to float in the sky and reduce friction. High altitude might not guarantee total safety, but it sure as hell a lot safer (thanks to GN drive) than the ground. Once the artillery can't reach them, all they have to deal with are just flying MSs & missiles, not the entire allied forces .

Well the original ideal plan was for Kyrios and Dynames not to be shot down in the first place after taking out the terrorists, which they totally were due the amount of bombs aimed at them.

The problem with high attitude is that they get they can still be pushed down from there even easier once they are hit. What happened to Kyrios and Dynames at the start of the battle more or less shows this. If the faster Kyrios and Dynames combo can't do it, there's way less chance for Virtue and Exia.

They're fast sure but I recall that the blocs are also executing Sergei's expensive many satellite spread maneuver thing from Episode 9/10 which allows them to know their rough location due to the radio blackout of the larger communication radius when the Gundams go active. They don't need to blanket the whole sky when they only need to blanket their rough location and pin them then. Both Celestial Being and the blocs know this.

Being on the ground also means they have more particles to use for offense and defense. A good example of this is Kyrios' GN Field, which it seemingly can only use when it's not doing anything else due to it not having as high particle reserves as Virtue does. It's not ideal but it's the only choice they have at that point.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by SonicSP

Well the original ideal plan was for Kyrios and Dynames not to be shot down in the first place after taking out the terrorists, which they totally were due the amount of bombs aimed at them.

The problem with high attitude is that they get they can still be pushed down from there even easier once they are hit. What happened to Kyrios and Dynames at the start of the battle more or less shows this. If the faster Kyrios and Dynames combo can't do it, there's way less chance for Virtue and Exia.

But those are more of attempts to fly off individually. We didn’t really see all four Gundams tried working together to fly off outta there early on. That’s why some audiences aren’t satisfied with the episode since they feel the meisters didn’t try all possible tactics using their Gundams.

In short, the episode should've shown how the Gundams 'tried and failed' (as long as it's not fatal) instead of assuming that every tactics will fail and just stand there in defense mode . That's how you present a satisfactory presentation to the audience. Simply being "pushed down" from the sky is not a fatal consequence. It's not even a suicidal move since they have more chance in high altitude.

[SonicSP]

I'm not sure what else they could have done really. Flying off individually seems to me would actually makes their chances better than anything else they could have done together since there's a better chance one of them (especially the faster Kyrios) would escape and you don't have the blocs concentrating their bombardment even more in one area that four of them might be in. Most of their current skillsets aren't really useful for counterattacking an army of this scale, other than their really strong armor.

That's why the plan was to breakthrough the ground instead since in the ground they would be disrupted less due to being able actually stay in defensive positions and wait for the enemy ammunition to run out since a battle of that scale would be costly.

The problem was the sheer frequency and strength of the bombing prevents them from even being able to get to a safe altitude and I wouldn't be surprised if the Union/AEU had special VMS squads ready to chase any strays that did escape the bombardment areas anyways - and push them back down. They had some that did that to them early on to bring them down in the first place.

==========

Though if I were Sumeragi, I would definitely have equipped Exia with Avalanche equipment and Kyrios with Gust equipment. Maybe that wouldn't have helped Virtue if it part came up but Gust might prevent Kyrios and Dynames from being shot down in the first place and Avalanche's ten minute boost will help Exia escape since it enables Exia to outrun conventional VMS.

Though it's probabaly not an option due to real life out-of-universe reasons (IE they are MSV and those tend not to get factored in). I mean the GN Arms were noted to be unavailable though the exact reason is not stated.

If I had a problem with the battle personally, it's less the tactics they did use with their standard equipment and more the equipment they could have used to help enchance their capability further that I know they possess. Situations like this are what specialized equipment are for. They have their limitations sure, but Avalanche and Gust would fit right in this battle.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by SonicSP

I'm not sure what else they could have done really.

Remember how the Gundams (+ Ptolemaios II) worked together to destroy Memento Mori? I was hoping for that kind of tactics and unity in this episode. Making the most out of what they got for a "hit & run" mission (or in this case, just the "run" part ). Maybe they can huddle together while climbing upwards and giving their GN particles to Virtue to enshroud them with better GN shield until they reach safer altitude? Things like that. Or I want more ingenuity from Sumeragi like you said without involving the Thrones.

[SonicSP]

I know what you mean, but as for teamwork

Later Spoilers

Spoiler:

One big difference between then and now is the actual state of the team. The Gundams not being a good team is actually a plot point right now, this is evidence by Kati Mannequin's monologue in Season 2 Episode 4 where she commented that the Gundams' teamwork was much better than before when reminiscing Episode 3's battle, certainly between the you know whos at least.

In addition, it is because of this current state of the team that moments like Episode 19 was meaningful because we get to see people on the team starting to get together when facing elements that unite them. The team in Episode 1 was barely a team with Lockon barely glueing them together. Then Allelujah sort of opened up and stopped being an asshole-like (really his personality in the early episodes are really different for some reason - more like a less crazy Hallelujah). This then leaves Tierra and Setsuna to be the problem children that always fight, especially Tieria since he kinda really dislikes the others more whenever they underperform like the time he deemed Allelujah unworthy and was about to shoot him.

In Episode 19 Setsuna and Tieria, two people who were more than ready to kill each other were doing good teamwork because they were united by a common enemy that gets their blood boiling (that was literally undoing their work) followed by moments that allowed them to understand each other more and understood where each of their actions were and where they develop a trust that each of them really do believe in the same cause as opposed to be someone who didn't. Especially since both of them did it with their own volition - hell breaking the organization's own rules while doing it.

There's another difference between that and Momento Mori too. Memento Mori was a fight in which everything more or less went to plan with no issues that forced them to deviate from the ideal scenario. By contrast, in the desert battle the ideal scenario was Kyrios and Dynames not getting shot down in the first place and escaping with Exia and Virtue just remaining there while cloaked. That led to a situation where more and more of the contingencies had to be used.

But aside from teamwork ability, I just don't think there was much they could have done in the desert battle than what they actually did from a strategic viewpoint. Sharing GN Particles is not an actual ability of the four Gundams suits at this point. It also doesn't help that that two pairs were separated from the start and for whatever reasons couldn't communicate directly since they are telling what stage of the battle plan they are from things like Virtue's Burst Mode beam appearing. Lockon I think made a comment that indicated as such when he saw Virtue's beam.

This is why my wish is more that they gave the Gundam better specialized and stronger equipment for the situation especially since some of the ones that exist will actually fit this situation. Part of the reason is probabaly because it's not the end of the show yet I guess - strong new stuff appears end of the show!