Umineko Playthrough Topic (Progressive spoilers and Discussions)

[FFTHEWINNER]

I would like to apologis for my delays. I arrived to america a week ago and already started it but the net connection in my house in america isnt working well at all forcing me to rely on my phone for net surfing thus i cant write the long messages i normally do simce phone keyboards suck. Hope to fix this problem asap

[FFTHEWINNER]

FINALLY returned to my usual rhythm! i sincerely apologise again :/

reached until after the chase scene in episode 4. My thoughts:

-ange cant exist on the game board because she wasnt in rokkenjima at that time. beato can exist on the gameboard. while beato was a ghost at the time,she was indeed in rokkenjima at that time. that could be why she is allowed to enter the game board.

-noticed it before,but why does bernacastel have a cat tail lol?it increases her cuteness and all,but still XD.

-expected that ronove's lines about battler were a trick lol. that being said,i find battler's quite genki mood to be illogical. after being tricked in such a huge way he should be far more angry/down. still,while it doesnt make sense,it served the purpose of delivering a nice joke,so whatever XD.

-menger sponge?what is that?

-Ange is beginning to piss me off. she is way too much tsun lol. hope they either fight or she turns dere soon.

-grehel?what a weird name. some sort of reference?

-the framing for the maria-ange discussion is the same one for meta world discussions. they should have designed a different one,since these discussions are imaginary stuff by ange,which(hopefully lol)is completely different from meta world discussions.

-damn did the poor girl have a hard life or what lol. You would think after such a life she would run to battler and hug him not be a huge ass to him lol

-this sakutaru stuff is both boring and cringe worthy.

-this conversation is weird. it is insinuating that "power of magic=power of imagination(and love too possibly)",but imaginations are things that others cant see,yet battler is seeing them even though he doesnt have magic power. ok,that can be explained by the fact that he is in a different dimension,but what about all the others during the episodes who saw magic and lived?in addition, i just really dont like this explanation. like i mentioned before,after all this time and thinking,i would truly loathe it if the explanation was"battler is dreaming/hallucinating/imagining everything".that would truly piss me off.
then again,i doubt that explanation even works,as we have two"real"people in the other realm now,so how and why would they both imagine the exact same things?that is impossible,and the fact that the 3rd realm still went on even without battler's imagination proves that world isnt imaginary.

-this guy's theory contradicts literally everything we were shown in episode 3,including everything battler saw. it cant be correct,otherwise noting we see i correct,even the battler stuff. eva clearly lied to him. however,it seems that the police found eva in the secret mansion,which means that she already knew its location. interesting.

-this continued"accident"talk is really pissing me off. they say the police investigated and found no evidence of a crime. how the f*** can this even be true?did she burn the whole mansion with all the bodies in it or something??!! even in that case there should be evidence outside,such as blood marks and what not. i cant imagine that to be true and it pisses me off that they still havent tried to explain it.

-eva oba-san. why would you callsomeone you loathe"san"lol?just call her plain"eva"or"oba".i know it is disrespectful but i think we are far past disrespect here lol.

-"you cant see objects in 3 dimensions using one eye" ummm what? what the heck is he talking about lol?you can see stuff in 3 dimensions just fime with one eye.it aint like the world will suddenly become 2D when you look at it with one eyee lol.

-she fell from the 3rd floor onto a car and survived with no injuries. boy oh boy is this dumb. atleast the original safety net situation was somewhat bearable,but this time this is really dumb.

-i dont get this scene. ange is over 18. there is no such thing as"guardian"to someone her age. are they literally trying to kidnap her then?with obvious witnesses?wouldnt they be arrested? also,why didnt ange herself hire like 10 or 20 armed guards to protect herself from them and everyone else who wants the money?

-seems like"serving drinks"is code for"torturing"lol XD

-we still havent learned how ange got into the other realm,since shew wasnt killed in that fall

-since the island murders took place in 1986,and maria's money had a face on it that was removed in 84,there is a high chance that those scenes happened 2 years prior to the island's,though to be fair,even after money's look gets changed,the old look remains in circulation for a bit,so this isnt conclusive evidence at all.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER

FINALLY returned to my usual rhythm! i sincerely apologise again :/

Welcome back! We missed you.

-ange cant exist on the game board because she wasnt in rokkenjima at that time. beato can exist on the gameboard. while beato was a ghost at the time,she was indeed in rokkenjima at that time. that could be why she is allowed to enter the game board.

Well, that and Beatrice is a central premise of the board, along with the Mystery side's position of "She doesn't exist on the gameboard, it's a trick."

-noticed it before,but why does bernacastel have a cat tail lol?it increases her cuteness and all,but still XD.

Shroedinger's cat.

-expected that ronove's lines about battler were a trick lol. that being said,i find battler's quite genki mood to be illogical. after being tricked in such a huge way he should be far more angry/down. still,while it doesnt make sense,it served the purpose of delivering a nice joke,so whatever XD.

Apparently Beatrice prepares her Games the same way a real person might, so Battler's had a few days. :P

-menger sponge?what is that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menger_sponge

Basically it's something with infinite surface and zero volume.

-grehel?what a weird name. some sort of reference?

Hansel and Gretel, the fairy tale? Hansel and Gretel fall into the hands of a witch, but it's Gretel who figures out how to kill her while Hansel just keeps stuffing his stupid face so the witch can eat him.

-this conversation is weird. it is insinuating that "power of magic=power of imagination(and love too possibly)",but imaginations are things that others cant see,yet battler is seeing them even though he doesnt have magic power. ok,that can be explained by the fact that he is in a different dimension,but what about all the others during the episodes who saw magic and lived?

Maybe they're just lying?

Or Beatrice's human counterpart is a stage magician.

-this guy's theory contradicts literally everything we were shown in episode 3,including everything battler saw. it cant be correct,otherwise noting we see i correct,even the battler stuff. eva clearly lied to him. however,it seems that the police found eva in the secret mansion,which means that she already knew its location. interesting.

Perhaps solving the Epitaph showed her where it was? Could it be what the "Golden Land" refers to?

-this continued"accident"talk is really pissing me off. they say the police investigated and found no evidence of a crime. how the f*** can this even be true?did she burn the whole mansion with all the bodies in it or something??!! even in that case there should be evidence outside,such as blood marks and what not. i cant imagine that to be true and it pisses me off that they still havent tried to explain it.

This is an extremely important question. Keep it in mind, along with Otonogi's theory about Eva's innocence.

-eva oba-san. why would you callsomeone you loathe"san"lol?just call her plain"eva"or"oba".i know it is disrespectful but i think we are far past disrespect here lol.

Because they're family; dropping it implies intimacy, not disrespect.

-"you cant see objects in 3 dimensions using one eye" ummm what? what the heck is he talking about lol?you can see stuff in 3 dimensions just fime with one eye.it aint like the world will suddenly become 2D when you look at it with one eyee lol.

Actually, you kind of do. If you take out someone's eye, their brain loses the ability to judge depth perception, so they have no means of judging distance.

-she fell from the 3rd floor onto a car and survived with no injuries. boy oh boy is this dumb. atleast the original safety net situation was somewhat bearable,but this time this is really dumb.

Indeed. Perhaps this part of the story is a lie, or perhaps ANGE-Beatrice is simply...a witch.

-i dont get this scene. ange is over 18. there is no such thing as"guardian"to someone her age. are they literally trying to kidnap her then?with obvious witnesses?wouldnt they be arrested? also,why didnt ange herself hire like 10 or 20 armed guards to protect herself from them and everyone else who wants the money?

The Sumadera family are basically the mafia. As for the guardian thing, sometimes paperwork can be signed that extends guardianship. I'm 26 and still considered a dependent due to medical issues, something could've been forged to spite Ange.

-we still havent learned how ange got into the other realm,since shew wasnt killed in that fall

I'm just going to say this since the manga clarifies it and the VN never does; as soon as Ange accepted Bernkastel's deal and jumped, she 'split'. One version of her landed on the safety net, the other entered the Meta-World. They're still connected and sometimes share memories and thoughts, similar to Battler and Meta-Battler, but with more awareness and shared power.

1998 is just another Gameboard, from Ange's perspective. She doesn't care about it.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER

-noticed it before,but why does bernacastel have a cat tail lol?it increases her cuteness and all,but still XD.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Shroedinger's cat.

I would say that it is rather a Higurashi reference.
Bernakastel has also a cat motif going on.

Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER

-i dont get this scene. ange is over 18. there is no such thing as"guardian"to someone her age. are they literally trying to kidnap her then?

I'm not certain, but i think I read something about that in Japan you are an adult at 21 instead of 18.

[AuraTwilight]

I would say that it is rather a Higurashi reference.
Bernacastel has also a cat motif going on.

It was a Shroedinger's cat reference there, too.

[FFTHEWINNER]

another apology for another(thankfully much shorter lol)delay.


reached until after the sibling kinzo discussion.

-"the final witch ange-beatrice". interesting.why"final"not"latest"?

-why does okonogi have a portrait instead of an avatar lol?pretty random.ryuukishi likes his face too much maybe XD?

-ok. let us find the problems here. first of all,if the"real killer/s"wasnt eva and survived,why would he even need to throw a bottle claiming that the witch did it?there is a clear and logical suspect in eva,so why would he throw a crazy"the witch did it"story?how does he benefit?(if eva did it she wouldnt benefit either,as the vast majority of people will dismiss the letter like ange originally did)and in a water bottle no less,which might not land on a shore or be found until ages later.
second,the legend of the witch beatrice existed for ages before the murders,and the portrait and puzzle for over 2 years prior,so the"witch theory"didnt begin with the letter. tons of stuff suggested it prior.
third,if ange truly saw berncastel before she jumped then how can she even think about denying witches in her world if she saw one with her own eyes in her world? and if she didnt see her then how did she move to the other realm?this is quite contradictory.

-a few weird points. battler,thinking,metaphored in his head what beato is doing as taking his light staff away. then beato mocked him saying that said staff was given by her. so,how did beato no what battler was thinking?he didnt say it outloud.
then ange says that beato has to answer"during this episode". unless this was a 4th wall breaking phrase,which would be quite dumb in such a serious situation and discussion,i dont see any meaning at all to her saying"in this episode". it doesnt make sense. what episode?

-why would battler accept "the blue rule"?it is a huge handicap to him with no benefits. they kept going on about how he can think of multiple theries and say them all together at the end using blue,but the simple fact is that he could hav done the exact same thing using normal speak. so is battler really that much of a follower that he simply cant refuse any new rule beatrice decides?former events say no,then why did he accept it?

-as for kinzo,let us count those who saw him:
-natsuhi
-krauss
-Battler
-Nanjo
-shannon
-kanon
-Gengi
-Episode 2 Beatrice
-Kumasawa?(not sure)
anyone else i forgot?i seem to recall other people hearing his voice hrough the door,but i am not sure of that.if not,that is 8(9?)people,including Natsuhi,who i fully consider to be pretty much a saint,shannon,who i highly doubt to be any kind of wolf,and battler himself.

i would like to say more,but the simple fact is that i am extremely biased towards kinzo,as he and beato are the only two characters that really and truly make me interested in the story and enjoying it,so losing him would make me lose a ton of my enjoyment in the story. heck,he was pretty much the only reason i enjoyed pre-murder episode 1,because that opening with him talking about beatrice truly entranced me.i wouldnt say the story would suck without him,but i would say that it wouldnt be "epic"anymore. it would be like Death Note after episode 26 pretty much(although i am 100% with light,but there is no denying that the episodes after 26,while good,werent nearly as great).
speaking of which,maybe it is because i havent played in a while,but i feel that there is something wrong with kinzo's eyes(took a peek at the beginning of next scene). cant put my finger on it though.




"Welcome back! We missed you."

thanks! i missed you guys and our discussions too

"Well, that and Beatrice is a central premise of the board, along with the Mystery side's position of "She doesn't exist on the gameboard, it's a trick."

fair points.

"Shroedinger's cat."
"higurashi reference"

because in higurashi she said"nyan"and what not right? however,i dont see what berncastel has to do with schrodinger's cat?maybe it will be more obvious later on?

"Apparently Beatrice prepares her Games the same way a real person might, so Battler's had a few days. :P"

also possible lol

"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menger_sponge

Basically it's something with infinite surface and zero volume."

oh. ok. that is what she meant then

"Hansel and Gretel, the fairy tale? Hansel and Gretel fall into the hands of a witch, but it's Gretel who figures out how to kill her while Hansel just keeps stuffing his stupid face so the witch can eat him."

oh yeah! read this story when i was really young lol. guess that ange calling herself grehel is another case of her mocking battler's"laziness" then XD.

"Maybe they're just lying?

Or Beatrice's human counterpart is a stage magician."

as i mentioned before,i find the number of people who saw magic and lived too big for"they were all lying"to be an accepted explanation. the stage magician theory does make sense,but some cases feel too weird for that either. however,main point is,as i have said,that there are 2 "confirmed real"people in beato's realm,so how can both imagine the exact same 10000 things?

"Perhaps solving the Epitaph showed her where it was? Could it be what the "Golden Land" refers to?"

i think she knew about kuadron prior. remember that when she was going to the place the gold was in she didnt show any signs of not knowing the buiding,or that she was going into the forest.and that place is quite far. i think the gold room is almost guarenteed to be inside the normal mansion not kuadron.

"This is an extremely important question. Keep it in mind, along with Otonogi's theory about Eva's innocence."

will do

"Because they're family; dropping it implies intimacy, not disrespect."

weird. i thought dropping "san"always means disrespect. please explain :?

"Actually, you kind of do. If you take out someone's eye, their brain loses the ability to judge depth perception, so they have no means of judging distance."

seems like you are right. now i got what he means

"Indeed. Perhaps this part of the story is a lie, or perhaps ANGE-Beatrice is simply...a witch."

or perhaps lazy writing,or perhaps foreshadowing to something. not sure which choice is correct so far.

"The Sumadera family are basically the mafia. As for the guardian thing, sometimes paperwork can be signed that extends guardianship. I'm 26 and still considered a dependent due to medical issues, something could've been forged to spite Ange."

oh. ok. i see your point. hope you get better btw

"I'm just going to say this since the manga clarifies it and the VN never does; as soon as Ange accepted Bernkastel's deal and jumped, she 'split'. One version of her landed on the safety net, the other entered the Meta-World. They're still connected and sometimes share memories and thoughts, similar to Battler and Meta-Battler, but with more awareness and shared power."

oh.ok.thanks for clarifying it

" 1998 is just another Gameboard, from Ange's perspective. She doesn't care about it. "

do you mean that litterally?if so who is the boss of this gameworld?obviously not beatrice.
maybe berncastel,so that 98 ange finds info in rokkenjima that will help 86 ange. yeah. that certainly makes sense

"I'm not certain, but i think I read something about that in Japan you are an adult at 21 instead of 18. "

really?that is surprising,since the legal age for sex in japan is 13 lol.


(replies to our old discussion)

"Especially when involving supernatural beings, are all "persons" also "humans"?"

in japanese she used"Ningen" both times,so it should be translated the same for both times,so the contradiction still exists.

"Kinzo was chosen because there was no one else young enough to produce heirs. He was basically from the most insignificant branch, is the reason for all this. There were other Ushiromiyas but they're all dead of old age."

ok,so you are saying that a family rhat was obviously quite large,with multiple branch families,had every single under 50yo male from all its branches die in the one earthquake and only kinzo miraculously survived unscathed?not a single one of tens and tens,if not hundreds,of them was living away from the area of the earthquake?or was on a buisness trip?or didnt get hurt when the earthquake hit?or got hurt not fatally?the old guys with brittle bones and canes managed to survive the earthquake but not a single one of the young and strong did? i know that this is the official explanation,but do you really think that this is in anyway a logical explanation?this is a plothole the size of everest lol.

"Pretty much exactly as you saw it. Umineko borrows a lot of tricks from classic novels, and Umineko's basic set-up of everyone being killed one by one is taken from Agatha Cristies "Ten Little Indians" or "And Then There Were None."

isnt it possible that it is also taken from the general"battle royale"idea too?
i meant what were the differences between how it happened in that novel and how it happened here,but if you dont remember that part well then no problem. i was just wondering

"This is the same Battler who whips out "Trap X", to be fair."

trap x was a way for him to counter beatrice based on the rules of their unique game. he himself said that such a rebuttal would never work in the normal world. here he was in the normal world,and he was making a grave accusation that no one would make,especially him,under the 3 points i stated unless he had clearly damning evidence.

"I already posited that Battler's thoughts and feelings influence the actions of his counterpart."

oh. ok. forgot that part.

"I'm proposing that she played it up and mocked him because she was just that insulted by her imagined culprit acting innocent in the face of her gun barrel. "

i got what you meant. i simply find it incredibly hard to accept,based on the tone of eva's voice and the exact words she said,that she was sarcastic/mocking battler. i am a person who is incredibly sarcastic IRL,so i have some expierence in that field lol XD


Also guys,what about my fan riddle?have you guys lost interest in it?would you like me to post the solution?or would you prefer to try some more?

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER

-"the final witch ange-beatrice". interesting.why"final"not"latest"?

Well, not like there's anyone to inherit it from her. And it sounds cooler.

-ok. let us find the problems here. first of all,if the"real killer/s"wasnt eva and survived,why would he even need to throw a bottle claiming that the witch did it?there is a clear and logical suspect in eva,so why would he throw a crazy"the witch did it"story?how does he benefit?(if eva did it she wouldnt benefit either,as the vast majority of people will dismiss the letter like ange originally did)and in a water bottle no less,which might not land on a shore or be found until ages later.
second,the legend of the witch beatrice existed for ages before the murders,and the portrait and puzzle for over 2 years prior,so the"witch theory"didnt begin with the letter. tons of stuff suggested it prior.
third,if ange truly saw berncastel before she jumped then how can she even think about denying witches in her world if she saw one with her own eyes in her world? and if she didnt see her then how did she move to the other realm?this is quite contradictory.

Would someone have time to release several witch bottles AFTER the killing? They're implied to be the Episodes themselves, that's not a quick writing project.

-a few weird points. battler,thinking,metaphored in his head what beato is doing as taking his light staff away. then beato mocked him saying that said staff was given by her. so,how did beato no what battler was thinking?he didnt say it outloud.
then ange says that beato has to answer"during this episode". unless this was a 4th wall breaking phrase,which would be quite dumb in such a serious situation and discussion,i dont see any meaning at all to her saying"in this episode". it doesnt make sense. what episode?

There's been 4th-wall leaning for a while now. It's the Meta-World. The Meta stands for Metaphysical, Metaphorical, Metafictional...

They're in a world between stories of a lower plane, it's probably hard not to adopt that sort of thinking.

-why would battler accept "the blue rule"?it is a huge handicap to him with no benefits. they kept going on about how he can think of multiple theries and say them all together at the end using blue,but the simple fact is that he could hav done the exact same thing using normal speak. so is battler really that much of a follower that he simply cant refuse any new rule beatrice decides?former events say no,then why did he accept it?

No, it's a strong advantage. Beatrice doesn't have to use the red, and can withhold disadvantageous information without saying the reason. The Blue Truth forces her to respond, meaning Battler can force the Red Truth out of her instead of hoping she's feeling merciful.

-as for kinzo,let us count those who saw him:
-natsuhi
-krauss
-Battler
-Nanjo
-shannon
-kanon
-Gengi
-Episode 2 Beatrice
-Kumasawa?(not sure)
anyone else i forgot?i seem to recall other people hearing his voice hrough the door,but i am not sure of that.if not,that is 8(9?)people,including Natsuhi,who i fully consider to be pretty much a saint,shannon,who i highly doubt to be any kind of wolf,and battler himself.

You can include Kumasawa. Battler only saw him in a highly suspect scene with magic, so that needs to be taken into account.

i would like to say more,but the simple fact is that i am extremely biased towards kinzo,as he and beato are the only two characters that really and truly make me interested in the story and enjoying it,so losing him would make me lose a ton of my enjoyment in the story. heck,he was pretty much the only reason i enjoyed pre-murder episode 1,because that opening with him talking about beatrice truly entranced me.i wouldnt say the story would suck without him,but i would say that it wouldnt be "epic"anymore. it would be like Death Note after episode 26 pretty much(although i am 100% with light,but there is no denying that the episodes after 26,while good,werent nearly as great).
speaking of which,maybe it is because i havent played in a while,but i feel that there is something wrong with kinzo's eyes(took a peek at the beginning of next scene). cant put my finger on it though.

Well if it makes you feel better, Ryukishi keeps adding characters either way. :P

"Shroedinger's cat."
"higurashi reference"

because in higurashi she said"nyan"and what not right? however,i dont see what berncastel has to do with schrodinger's cat?maybe it will be more obvious later on?

Spoiler for Higurashi:

In Higurashi, Rika Furude is trapped in a timeloop where she's constantly dying. Bernkastel is the part of Rika in the meta-world representing all the dead Rikas, and brings up the Shroedinger's cat comparison, trying to find the world where she's a living cat in the box instead of a dead one.

"Maybe they're just lying?

Or Beatrice's human counterpart is a stage magician."

as i mentioned before,i find the number of people who saw magic and lived too big for"they were all lying"to be an accepted explanation. the stage magician theory does make sense,but some cases feel too weird for that either. however,main point is,as i have said,that there are 2 "confirmed real"people in beato's realm,so how can both imagine the exact same 10000 things?

Mayhaps Beatrice is a figment of Battler's imagination~~~

Yea, I know it's dumb. Or maybe they're both ghosts, or the nature of the world they're in allows you to project holograms of your thoughts.

weird. i thought dropping "san"always means disrespect. please explain :?

San is respectful, but also adds formal distance. Imagine if you called your Mom "Mrs. [Last Name]". It's a passive-aggressive way of saying 'you're not my family' while sounding polite.

do you mean that litterally?if so who is the boss of this gameworld?obviously not beatrice.
maybe berncastel,so that 98 ange finds info in rokkenjima that will help 86 ange. yeah. that certainly makes sense

What I mean is she emotionally considers it a false reality since she wants to escape to one where her family never died, and thus her witch self treats it as a gameboard.

really?that is surprising,since the legal age for sex in japan is 13 lol.

That's the legal minimum; Japan allows each district to set their own age of consent but no one's allowed to go under that minimum. In practice, most of them keep the age of consent at 18 to 20. The one that goes lowest places it at 15.

in japanese she used"Ningen" both times,so it should be translated the same for both times,so the contradiction still exists.

Fair; I would translate it as human and define Witch as 'a human who can use magic', with human being also used as shorthand for 'humans who can't use magic'.

ok,so you are saying that a family rhat was obviously quite large,with multiple branch families,had every single under 50yo male from all its branches die in the one earthquake and only kinzo miraculously survived unscathed?not a single one of tens and tens,if not hundreds,of them was living away from the area of the earthquake?or was on a buisness trip?or didnt get hurt when the earthquake hit?or got hurt not fatally?the old guys with brittle bones and canes managed to survive the earthquake but not a single one of the young and strong did? i know that this is the official explanation,but do you really think that this is in anyway a logical explanation?this is a plothole the size of everest lol.

No, I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying everyone in the main branch died in such an earthquake, and that a bunch of others who WEREN'T THERE survived, just like Kinzo wasn't. These old men were the elders but not part of the main branch, so they would have gained the most authority in the family, but instead put it on Kinzo because they wanted the power but not the responsibility.

i got what you meant. i simply find it incredibly hard to accept,based on the tone of eva's voice and the exact words she said,that she was sarcastic/mocking battler. i am a person who is incredibly sarcastic IRL,so i have some expierence in that field lol XD

Eh, Japan culturally treats sarcasm a bit differently.

Also guys,what about my fan riddle?have you guys lost interest in it?would you like me to post the solution?or would you prefer to try some more?

Please post it. I tried, but I think we failed, lol.

[Jaden]

Yeah, I give up on that one....sorry. I thought of some more theories, but honestly they're too ugly and inconsistent to even bother posting.

[FFTHEWINNER]

Alright. here is the solution to the riddle(i actually wrote it all yesterday,and it took me well over an hour to write nd organize,but when i pressed"post"i found that the site randomly signed me out and thus i lost all i wrote. Grrr...):

First MRH(Major Red Herring):The gold room gold and rudolf's gold are similar,but not 100% identical.

Second MRH: The knife had gohda's fingerprints simply because he is the cook,nothing more.

Third MRH: when i said"Natsuhi, Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Battler, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Kanon are not relevant to the story.",i intentionally left genji out.

First MH(Major Hint): krauss is the only one to not be pierced.

Second MH:the gold in the gold room is generally organized except for a few ingots which are on the floor.

Third MH: Rudolf is the only one who i didnt mention where he was pierced,because it doesnt matter.

Using these,try to form one final theory,then read on below for the actual full answer

Spoiler for Full Solution:

eva and rosa solve a portion of the epitaph that points to a specific part of the mansion,so they go and bring maria and george and then thoroughly search every nook and cranny there for hidden doors until they find the entrance to the gold room. then they put george and maria as guards to watch in case someone comes. they then search for a way to open the door but cant find it,so they break the lock and get in. unbeknownst to them because they hadent fully solved the epitaph,there are tons of traps that kinzo installed in the room,and the only way to inactivate them is a series of hidden buttons and switches all over the house that only someone who fully solved and understood the epitaph can find. so,when rosa and eva enter,they press on trap blocks and tons of arrows with bladed ends pour out from the walls and kill them.

George and maria hear the sounds and run inside only to find their dead mothers,whom they hug,and wheep. krauss was sneakily following them all because he suspected from eva and rosa's weird behavior that they solved the epitaph,and he saw all that transpired. he sneaks on george and maria and quickly kills them through stabbing them in the neck with his knife. he then begins gathering the gold while standing on top of eva's body to make sure that no new trap blocks are activated. however,when the block trap was activated a 2nd trap was simultaneously activated that sprayed all the gold with a poison that is so powerful that it is deadly to the touch even through gloved hands,so krauss picks up a few ingots then falls to the ground dead.

in the boiler room,rudolf has some fake gold ingots,with one real one mixed in,that he and kyrie made based on how kinzo's legendary treasure supposedly looks like. they intended to use the gold as part of a scheme to take money from krauss and the rest through claiming that they found the gold and that there is so much of it that they are willing to help their family members out of their debt by giving it to them for"practically nothing compared to its actual value",and giving them the one real one as a sample. however,jessica secretly saw them with the gold. thinking it is real,and wanting to leave her entire life on the island behind and begin a new one with the money that gold will give her,she brings a knife and stabs rudolf. the sounds he makes attracts genji,and when jessica hears genji's footsteps she quickly grabs some ingots(missing the only real one) and runs to the boat which she uses to leave the island. when genji sees rudolf and the gold he goes to check on the gold's room and sees the carnage there,then he returns to rudolf and notices that the gold room gold and rudolf's gold are similar,but not 100% identical,which means that rudolf's gold was a fake based on how the stories told the gold looked like. then he goes and tells kinzo what he saw,and kinzo laughs long and hard at his rotten family's greed and how all of them lost everything in the end.

so,how did your final theory hold up?

i am quite curious about what you guys thought of the solution. i hope you liked it,and i welcome any feedback and thoughts about it

also jaden,i am curious about what the last theories you thought of were




"Why the blue true is a handicap??? Without it Beatrice can choose to not answer any theory he has. Basically with it you can avoid an eternal stalemate."
"Under the previous rules, Battler can suggest an idea, but Beatrice doesn't have to deny it. They can end up creating a stalemate as a result. Under the new rules, any Blue Truth that is not explicitly countered with Red Truth becomes the Red Truth, essentially. So Beatrice must provide responses. Looking another way, it basically shifts the burden of proof. In the past, if Battler wanted to prove Kinzo was already dead, he would have to show evidence of that being the case, but Beatrice could counter in Red with no proof. Now, Battler can use the Blue Truth even without a basis. Granted, Beatrice still doesn't need proof beyond "the Red Truth doesn't lie", but it does free up Battler's avenues of attack."
"No, it's a strong advantage. Beatrice doesn't have to use the red, and can withhold disadvantageous information without saying the reason. The Blue Truth forces her to respond, meaning Battler can force the Red Truth out of her instead of hoping she's feeling merciful."

you all are ignoring a simple thing:
Can an eternal stalemate theoratically happen under the old rules? Yes.
would it ever be allowed to happen? No.
remember that beatrice's goals are,in order of importance:to have fun instead of her eternal boredom,to not upset lambdadelta,and to defeat battler.
under such conditions,beatrice can never afford a long stalemate because it means she failed in all her goals. in fact,a short stalemate will be advantagous to battler as it will force her to give him new clues/powers/info in order for him to return to the game.

now think about what the rule he accepted instead means. before that,he could ONLY lose if he himself completely and utterly broke down and accepted witches with all his heart,which we all know he would never do. even in a case where he fully and undesputedly lost the game like in episode 2 he still didnt lose the war,and it was impossible that he will ever lose it. now however,under the new rule,if his first group of theories for even one of the twilights are countered at the end of the episode,and he is unable to come with a new theory within 1 minute(which is an utterly ruthless time limit)the he loses everything. he loses the war. so you have a very real and very major disadvantage yet not a single real advantage that he couldnt have gotten by simply being patent.

not only that,but blue severly limits what he can even say. for example, let us take the closed room of Eva and Hideyoshi in Ep1 and let's say Battler said this:

The culprit has one master key so that's how he closed the door!

originally,beatrice might or might not have answered this in red. thus,he may or may not have gotten a clue on the case. now however,it is guarenteed that she wont answer it,Because this doesn't explain the full mystery. The room was closed with a chain, so even if the culprit has a key, the chain part of the mystery remains and beato will only answer full theories. see how a potential source of clues was totally and utterly cut off?

So now Beatrice can simply not state any red truth during the game, Then in the end she counters Battler's blues in a way he probably won't predict. At that point Battler will have only one minute to think about another strategy or he lost the whole damn war. if this isnt shooting yourself in the foot i dont know what is.

"Well, not like there's anyone to inherit it from her. And it sounds cooler."

was there anyone to inherit it from virgilia before old beatrice asked her? witches are eternal,so they eventually find protegees. no,there is a reason for the wording,though i am not fully sure of it yet.

"Would someone have time to release several witch bottles AFTER the killing? They're implied to be the Episodes themselves, that's not a quick writing project."

many things to be addressed here:
-who said several were released?only one was found
-while it is somewhat implied to be the episodes,that wouldnt make sense. the only person who saw the entire episode was meta battler. everyone else just saw bits and pieces of it,and certainly none of the other realm stuff.
-yes they do have time.the letter could have been thrown in the ocean weeks after the murders,and not necessarily from rokkenjima.
-but like i said,how do they benefit of that?i dont see any benefits for them.same goes for if they were thrown before the murders took place,and another problem will arise in that case as how would they know who survived if the murdeds didnt happen yet? i doubt that they planned for eva to survive.
-also,it is logical that they would have neither the time nor the mentality to write them while the murders were taking place.

"There's been 4th-wall leaning for a while now. It's the Meta-World. The Meta stands for Metaphysical, Metaphorical, Metafictional...

They're in a world between stories of a lower plane, it's probably hard not to adopt that sort of thinking."

the "metaworld"name is a fan made term,not canonical.

also,this doesnt explain how beatrice replied to the staff comparison even though he didnt say it out loud,and he didnt even find anything weird with that

"You can include Kumasawa. Battler only saw him in a highly suspect scene with magic, so that needs to be taken into account."

ok. so that is 9 people,and i see your reservation about battler.

"Well if it makes you feel better, Ryukishi keeps adding characters either way. :P"

Near and Milo where also added as a substitute for L. that didnt work out well now did it? >_>

"Spoiler for Higurashi"

oh. ok. now i fully got how it is a double reference

"Mayhaps Beatrice is a figment of Battler's imagination~~~"

i actually did think of that possibility. the two"confirmed real"people i was talking about were Battler and Ange not Battler and Beato

" Yea, I know it's dumb. Or maybe they're both ghosts, or the nature of the world they're in allows you to project holograms of your thoughts."

them both being ghosts wouldnt change anything,and even if the world allows you to project your thoughts said thoughts you have will differ from the thoughts the other one has,thus he wont interact with you on the basis of your thoughts being real like they are interacting with each other now,because he knows that they arent real.

"San is respectful, but also adds formal distance. Imagine if you called your Mom "Mrs. [Last Name]". It's a passive-aggressive way of saying 'you're not my family' while sounding polite."

thanks for the perfect explanation. now i got it

"What I mean is she emotionally considers it a false reality since she wants to escape to one where her family never died, and thus her witch self treats it as a gameboard."

oh. ok. now i got what you mean

"That's the legal minimum; Japan allows each district to set their own age of consent but no one's allowed to go under that minimum. In practice, most of them keep the age of consent at 18 to 20. The one that goes lowest places it at 15."

surprising. i had heard that it is 13 but 13 to 18 people can only have sex with other 13 to 18 people not anyone older. is that info false then? :/

"Fair; I would translate it as human and define Witch as 'a human who can use magic', with human being also used as shorthand for 'humans who can't use magic'."

which would mean that the exact same word means one meaning and its opposite meaning too. wouldnt it be more logical for it to simply be a mistake that endless eva made because she was quite angry and flustered?

"No, I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying everyone in the main branch died in such an earthquake, and that a bunch of others who WEREN'T THERE survived, just like Kinzo wasn't. These old men were the elders but not part of the main branch, so they would have gained the most authority in the family, but instead put it on Kinzo because they wanted the power but not the responsibility."

...that is exactly what i said. this means that,other than kinzo,only old/ancient grandpas and grandmas survived. the huge problem here is that,in such a large family with multiple branches and sub brances,far more young(under 50 and fertile) ushiromyas should have survived the earthquake,and thus kinzo would have never been chosen since he is just a young teenager brat from the most insignificant branch out of all of them. he is literally the last ushiromya choice out of all the young ushiromyas.

"Eh, Japan culturally treats sarcasm a bit differently."

possible. i guess that could be cultural difference impeding analysis then.

"Please post it. I tried, but I think we failed, lol."

done

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER

...that is exactly what i said. this means that,other than kinzo,only old/ancient grandpas and grandmas survived. the huge problem here is that,in such a large family with multiple branches and sub brances,far more young(under 50 and fertile) ushiromyas should have survived the earthquake,and thus kinzo would have never been chosen since he is just a young teenager brat from the most insignificant branch out of all of them. he is literally the last ushiromya choice out of all the young ushiromyas.

Kinzo having 6 toes was also important in the decision of making him the new head.

[AuraTwilight]

you all are ignoring a simple thing:
Can an eternal stalemate theoratically happen under the old rules? Yes.
would it ever be allowed to happen? No.
remember that beatrice's goals are,in order of importance:to have fun instead of her eternal boredom,to not upset lambdadelta,and to defeat battler.
under such conditions,beatrice can never afford a long stalemate because it means she failed in all her goals. in fact,a short stalemate will be advantagous to battler as it will force her to give him new clues/powers/info in order for him to return to the game.

Uh, it does more than cause an eternal stalemate; it's also Beatrice's main strategy of almost winning, as demonstrated at the ends of EP2 and EP3.

now think about what the rule he accepted instead means. before that,he could ONLY lose if he himself completely and utterly broke down and accepted witches with all his heart,which we all know he would never do. even in a case where he fully and undesputedly lost the game like in episode 2 he still didnt lose the war,and it was impossible that he will ever lose it. now however,under the new rule,if his first group of theories for even one of the twilights are countered at the end of the episode,and he is unable to come with a new theory within 1 minute(which is an utterly ruthless time limit)the he loses everything. he loses the war. so you have a very real and very major disadvantage yet not a single real advantage that he couldnt have gotten by simply being patent.

Uh...no? It never said he loses the war.

not only that,but blue severly limits what he can even say. for example, let us take the closed room of Eva and Hideyoshi in Ep1 and let's say Battler said this:

The culprit has one master key so that's how he closed the door!

originally,beatrice might or might not have answered this in red. thus,he may or may not have gotten a clue on the case. now however,it is guarenteed that she wont answer it,Because this doesn't explain the full mystery. The room was closed with a chain, so even if the culprit has a key, the chain part of the mystery remains and beato will only answer full theories. see how a potential source of clues was totally and utterly cut off?

No, this is a perfectly valid Blue Truth, because the culprit having a Master Key explains several mysteries even if not all of them, and even its denial would be useful.

A case of an invalid blue truth would be "Maria was watching Cardcaptor Sakura" because it's a complete waste of time.

was there anyone to inherit it from virgilia before old beatrice asked her? witches are eternal,so they eventually find protegees. no,there is a reason for the wording,though i am not fully sure of it yet.

With her mindset, do you think Ange would last that long?

-who said several were released?only one was found
-while it is somewhat implied to be the episodes,that wouldnt make sense. the only person who saw the entire episode was meta battler. everyone else just saw bits and pieces of it,and certainly none of the other realm stuff.
-yes they do have time.the letter could have been thrown in the ocean weeks after the murders,and not necessarily from rokkenjima.
-but like i said,how do they benefit of that?i dont see any benefits for them.same goes for if they were thrown before the murders took place,and another problem will arise in that case as how would they know who survived if the murdeds didnt happen yet? i doubt that they planned for eva to survive.
-also,it is logical that they would have neither the time nor the mentality to write them while the murders were taking place.

By several episode, I meant the gameboard parts, my apologize. And I also apologize for a very slight spoiler; later in the episode reveals there were multiple bottles, but I thought you had passed that part.

The letters were found fairly quickly after the incident, right? and the letters describe scenarios where Eva is dead in a world where she isn't. Doesn't that imply they were released into the ocean before the tragedy happened at all?

the "metaworld"name is a fan made term,not canonical.

also,this doesnt explain how beatrice replied to the staff comparison even though he didnt say it out loud,and he didnt even find anything weird with that

The term is used by Ryukishi in interviews and such.

Maybe Battler mumbled it outloud and didn't include it in his mental narration. It's a common literary device in Japan, like in Haruhi Suzumiya and Steins;Gate.

i actually did think of that possibility. the two"confirmed real"people i was talking about were Battler and Ange not Battler and Beato

What if all this is Ange's dream as she copes with the loss of her family? What if Ange is just Battler's subconscious worrying about Ange? :P

But yea no it's probably another dimension.

them both being ghosts wouldnt change anything,and even if the world allows you to project your thoughts said thoughts you have will differ from the thoughts the other one has,thus he wont interact with you on the basis of your thoughts being real like they are interacting with each other now,because he knows that they arent real.

What I mean is, if Beatrice creates an image in her mind, she can project it so Battler can see it. Basically it's a shared dream and she's a lucid dreamer and he isn't. Or something.

Basically Battler is inside Beato's mind, perhaps.

surprising. i had heard that it is 13 but 13 to 18 people can only have sex with other 13 to 18 people not anyone older. is that info false then? :/

No, you're right, it's just something the district enforces, not the federal government.

which would mean that the exact same word means one meaning and its opposite meaning too. wouldnt it be more logical for it to simply be a mistake that endless eva made because she was quite angry and flustered?

It could be! Though either way I think the intent was "It wasn't anything long-distance or time-released, the murderer did it themselves, infront of Nanjo's face."

...that is exactly what i said. this means that,other than kinzo,only old/ancient grandpas and grandmas survived. the huge problem here is that,in such a large family with multiple branches and sub brances,far more young(under 50 and fertile) ushiromyas should have survived the earthquake,and thus kinzo would have never been chosen since he is just a young teenager brat from the most insignificant branch out of all of them. he is literally the last ushiromya choice out of all the young ushiromyas.

Right, and he was also the least politically relevant, and thus politically divisive, possible heir. So he was propped up for that reason as a puppet-ruler.

It's also possible that he genuinely was the only surviving young Ushiromiya. Kinzo's life is defined by, and filled with, really stupidly impossible miracles.

And like Alfa said, he had the six toes.

[Jaden]

Well done with the riddle, it is a good one. About my theories, then...

Spoiler for spoilers:

I had surmised that traps in the gold room were likely, ever since you shot down the possibility of a mutual kill. But it was hard to commit to that theory when there's no clues. Should've pushed you harder about the state of the bodies to find there's a bunch of arrows sticking out of them

Since Krauss wasn't the first to die in that room, I thought it likely he was the last. Touch-transmitted poison was what I considered the likely cause of his death, since most of the other possibilities were denied in red. It wouldn't make a lot of sense for him to die from his own trap, and the same goes for the other dead people in the room - so the true mastermind had to be one of Jessica, Rudolf, and Kinzo.

Rudolf is unlikely to be involved without Kyrie, so I kinda counted him out. I counted out Jessica because she just isn't the plotter type. I figured she probably killed Rudolf, but it wasn't premeditated. I figured she must have seen Rudolf as the culprit and killed him because of that. But then, why would she be running away? It must be because she realized her mistake, or that she had no proof of Rudolf's guilt, and that it was actually Kinzo behind the deaths. Then it makes sense she'd want to leave the island. That she simply did that out of greed I considered unlikely, which somewhat limited my ability to solve this.

Anyway, I was thinking to pin it all on Kinzo. Something like Krauss vented to Kinzo about how he should be the next head, and the riddle is impossible etc. so Kinzo got pissy and sent him to the gold room (with lethal traps) as a final test. How the other stiffs got involved, I couldn't really figure out. The solution of the partially solved epitaph was a good one, I couldn't think of it because I know how the epitaph and the gold room work in the original story, which made my mind somewhat inflexible on that issue.

[FFTHEWINNER]

Reached until rosa returns from her two day abscence

-something is wrong with kinzo. his eyes. his abnormal strength. i cant place my finger on it though,and i might not even want to...

-kanon told him about what happened?who said that kanon was there in the first place? he certainly wasnt in a place where he can be seen otherwise krauss would have used him as backup. did he secretly listen in order to tell kinzo whatever they say?possible and logical,but i somehow doubt this whole narrative. still,denying scenes where magic wasnt used opens a huge can of worms,as it means that you cant trust 95% of the story. that makes any attempt to solve the mysteries pretty much impossible as you have almost no clues. so,i might have to in the future,but for now i'd rather not doubt scenes that dont have any magic.

-ok. HUGE difference in the flower part here,and it makes no sense.
why is maria happy and not thinking about the rose at all?this is pretty much the only scene that happened exactly the same each episode until now,but all of a sudden maria doesnt care about the rose??
also,she"had"an umbrella? she wasnt"given" an umbrella?she had it?wtf?
this scene is unexplainable. maria shouldnt be happy. she should be woried sick about the flower like she was before. she couldnt have found it,otherwise she would have been talking about it happily nonstop. what the hell happened here?

-also,this lovey dovey version of rosa screams"fake"to me. not sure why she would fake it though,and maybe that is why ange broke her cup in anger. because she knew from reading maria's diary that rosa is faking it.

-"not beato either". first time the narrator said"beato"instead of "beatrice". might be meaningless,but an interesting observation nonetheless.

-seems like imaginary maria is pretty much the"pure side"of rosa. the side that wants to trust and to forgive others for what they did to her.

-i stated from the end of episode 2 how much i despise rosa and how much of a horrible person she is,and this is proving me right more and more. what if a thief or a kidnapper got wind that the famously rich ushriromya rosa only has a little kid in her apartment?what will happen then you idiot? atleast hire a guard for the f***ing house when you leave or have her stay with somebody else you know or something.

-also,those constant and sudden abscences make me very suspious. what is rosa doing?it cant all be work. maybe she was planning the murders?maybe she is the mastermind behind them?very possible. another possible alternative is that she is dating someone who is bleeding her money dry,as i find it weird that such a smart woman would fail so badly at her job. she may also subconciously see maria as the huge block towards her marrying that man,which would be a big reason for her pitiful rage fits.

-(1 minute after writing the previous sentence)"because she had a date or something,she would come home drunk". hmmm...

-I am calling it. Rosa is going to destroy sakutaro in a fit of rage,and that is how maria will get her "ouuu". sakutaro's imaginary"onyu"got abbreviated to"ou"and stuck in maria's mind.

-i dont dont think ange's analysis is correct. it wouldnt make any sense for maria to conciously lie in her own diary. what i think happened is that maria pretty much hypnotised herself into having fun by imagining sakutaro(who for her represents "good maria" just like maria for ange represents"good ange")convincing her to have fun. so i do think that,in maria's mind,everything she described literally happened.


"Kinzo having 6 toes was also important in the decision of making him the new head. "

hmmm. yeah. that didnt occur to me at all actually,but in such a traditional family it certainly makes sense. weird that this reason wasnt alluded to in-game at all though.

"Right, and he was also the least politically relevant, and thus politically divisive, possible heir. So he was propped up for that reason as a puppet-ruler.

It's also possible that he genuinely was the only surviving young Ushiromiya. Kinzo's life is defined by, and filled with, really stupidly impossible miracles.

And like Alfa said, he had the six toes."

so he wasnt the only survivor at all,but because he had 6 toes and was the easiest to control he was made the head? that certainly makes far more sense than the other explanation,though you'd think the other,more capable,ushiromyas would revolt on this. still,this is an explanation i can accept.

however,this enters us back into the original problem,why arent the families of the other surviving ushiromyas represented in the gathering in anyway? seems like we solved one plothole by opening another one lol >_>

"Uh, it does more than cause an eternal stalemate; it's also Beatrice's main strategy of almost winning, as demonstrated at the ends of EP2 and EP3."

i dont get what you mean here :?. explain please

"Uh...no? It never said he loses the war."

huh. weird. i thought her wording meant that the whole war is over. guess that reduces the danger a bit,but still...

"No, this is a perfectly valid Blue Truth, because the culprit having a Master Key explains several mysteries even if not all of them, and even its denial would be useful.

A case of an invalid blue truth would be "Maria was watching Cardcaptor Sakura" because it's a complete waste of time."

really?i thought that she only accepts full theories as blue. does that mean he can say anything in blue as long as it is relevant to the mystery?

"With her mindset, do you think Ange would last that long?"

if she got back her family,or at least battler?definitely. her depressed mindset is because she is alone against the world. if battler was with her and her magic allowed him too to live forever why wouldnt she want to enjoy her eternal life with him?

"By several episode, I meant the gameboard parts, my apologize. And I also apologize for a very slight spoiler; later in the episode reveals there were multiple bottles, but I thought you had passed that part.

The letters were found fairly quickly after the incident, right? and the letters describe scenarios where Eva is dead in a world where she isn't. Doesn't that imply they were released into the ocean before the tragedy happened at all?

--even for the gameboard parts,no one saw all of them except meta battler. everyone else saw only bits and pieces.
--actually,according to ep1's ending,ep1's letter was found YEARS after the murders. nothing about ep4's letters have been revealed yet other than that one was found and it talked about the witch.
--so,what you are saying about "scenarios where Eva is dead in a world where she isn't."is another thing that hasnt been revealed yet >_>
--and until we fully know the contents of said letters,the big question remains of what their benefit is to their writer.

"The term is used by Ryukishi in interviews and such."

interesting. never knew that.

"Maybe Battler mumbled it outloud and didn't include it in his mental narration. It's a common literary device in Japan, like in Haruhi Suzumiya and Steins;Gate."

now that you mention it,yeah. that makes sense.

"What if all this is Ange's dream as she copes with the loss of her family? What if Ange is just Battler's subconscious worrying about Ange? :P

But yea no it's probably another dimension."

it better be lol. it would be the epitomy of lame for it to be anything else XD

"What I mean is, if Beatrice creates an image in her mind, she can project it so Battler can see it. Basically it's a shared dream and she's a lucid dreamer and he isn't. Or something.

Basically Battler is inside Beato's mind, perhaps"

again,i was talking about battler and ange not battler and beato

"No, you're right, it's just something the district enforces, not the federal government."

so basically,if the district decides to allow 15yo to have sex then it must be with other 15-18yo. if it decides to make the minimum age 18 or more then no problem either,right?
what is the minimum age for tokyo?or osaka?

"It could be! Though either way I think the intent was "It wasn't anything long-distance or time-released, the murderer did it themselves, infront of Nanjo's face.""

yeah. i think her intent was that too,but she flustered and admitted her defeat with her mouth XD
the point that actually annoyed me in the whole thing was that battler didnt notice it!like,comeon man XD

also aura,i am curious about what you thought about the riddle solution!what you think about the narrative,any plot holes,what parts are great/bad,what i did right/wrong,etc,so that i can improve my writing ability if i ever decide to make another one of these in the future

" Well done with the riddle, it is a good one. About my theories, then..."

glad to hear you liked it!

Spoiler for spoiler replies:

i thought having different ways of death was a clue,otherwise what would the point be of that?

well,it was indeed not premediated,but sometimes the simplest explanation is also the best one . also,dont forget that i confirmed in red that she had gold on the boat

i fully see your point. that is actually exactly why i stated originally"when playing this game,you only know what battler knew at the end of episode 2.information that we discover in future episodes may or may not apply here,so forget all about them". To push the player into thinking of this riddle as standalone and ignore his umineko discoveries past ep2

also,did you consider that rudolf's gold isnt the same as the main gold?or gohda's relationship to the riddle?or genji not being denied?

[Jaden]

Spoiler for replies:

i thought having different ways of death was a clue,otherwise what would the point be of that?

It was a clue in the sense that multiple killing methods implied multiple killers, and a complicated sequence of events, but there wasn't much to go on for getting started on figuring out that sequence. My initial thought was that violence typically escalates after shit goes down, but in this case it was the opposite...

i fully see your point. that is actually exactly why i stated originally"when playing this game,you only know what battler knew at the end of episode 2.information that we discover in future episodes may or may not apply here,so forget all about them". To push the player into thinking of this riddle as standalone and ignore his umineko discoveries past ep2

You did. That was 100% my failure...

also,did you consider that rudolf's gold isnt the same as the main gold?or gohda's relationship to the riddle?or genji not being denied?

I never considered Rudolf the culprit, so no. I wrote off the servants since you cleared them in red, they may have been involved in relaying information between Kinzo and others, but a security camera and a phone could do the same. Gohda's finerprints always meant to me merely that knives were grabbed from the kitchen, and I took this as evidence of Jessica's thoughtless vengeful rampage.

[AuraTwilight]

-something is wrong with kinzo. his eyes. his abnormal strength. i cant place my finger on it though,and i might not even want to...

It's possible this scene is being exaggerated, what with Battler's absence and Beatrice being an unreliable narrator.

-kanon told him about what happened?who said that kanon was there in the first place? he certainly wasnt in a place where he can be seen otherwise krauss would have used him as backup. did he secretly listen in order to tell kinzo whatever they say?possible and logical,but i somehow doubt this whole narrative. still,denying scenes where magic wasnt used opens a huge can of worms,as it means that you cant trust 95% of the story. that makes any attempt to solve the mysteries pretty much impossible as you have almost no clues. so,i might have to in the future,but for now i'd rather not doubt scenes that dont have any magic.

No, this is a wrong way to think. Even if a scene didn't literally happen, they still have symbolic truth to them. They're being shown to you for a reason. For instance, if we say that Kanon wasn't really there listening in, per se, it still conveys that Kanon is an untrustworthy spy, perhaps, or that Kinzo has ways of obtaining impossible information and is thus himself a suspicious figure.

If we take the scene from episode 1 where Krauss shows Natsuhi a gold ingot he found, and say it didn't happen, we still have "The gold physically exists" and "Natsuhi isn't motivated or corruptible by money."

-ok. HUGE difference in the flower part here,and it makes no sense.
why is maria happy and not thinking about the rose at all?this is pretty much the only scene that happened exactly the same each episode until now,but all of a sudden maria doesnt care about the rose??
also,she"had"an umbrella? she wasnt"given" an umbrella?she had it?wtf?
this scene is unexplainable. maria shouldnt be happy. she should be woried sick about the flower like she was before. she couldnt have found it,otherwise she would have been talking about it happily nonstop. what the hell happened here?

It means the differences in this Gameboard happen earlier than in the others. Or perhaps it tells us that Maria was always acting up before to get an oppurtunity to see Beatrice at a scheduled time, which isn't a concern this time?

-I am calling it. Rosa is going to destroy sakutaro in a fit of rage,and that is how maria will get her "ouuu". sakutaro's imaginary"onyu"got abbreviated to"ou"and stuck in maria's mind.

Wasn't it already established that "Uuu" was her favorite magical spell?

hmmm. yeah. that didnt occur to me at all actually,but in such a traditional family it certainly makes sense. weird that this reason wasnt alluded to in-game at all though.

Ep1 brought it up.

however,this enters us back into the original problem,why arent the families of the other surviving ushiromyas represented in the gathering in anyway? seems like we solved one plothole by opening another one lol >_>

The accident was like 60 years ago, they all died of other causes and didn't leave behind kids or something. Kinzo might've been the only surviving YOUNG Ushiromiya.

i dont get what you mean here :?. explain please

Beatrice's main strategy was only giving Battler red that was advantageous to her. With the blue, she's forced to give out Red Truth that doesn't help her in any way.

really?i thought that she only accepts full theories as blue. does that mean he can say anything in blue as long as it is relevant to the mystery?

Yes. "Natsuhi doesn't care about the gold" is a valid Blue, for instance, because it removes a character motive for her, as is "Maria's rose was destroyed in the rain" because if true it implies that Beatrice's 'magic' (in a human theory) was tricking Maria with another rose.

if she got back her family,or at least battler?definitely. her depressed mindset is because she is alone against the world. if battler was with her and her magic allowed him too to live forever why wouldnt she want to enjoy her eternal life with him?

Right, but that's a significant change to her mindset. The current Ange is suicidal.

--even for the gameboard parts,no one saw all of them except meta battler. everyone else saw only bits and pieces.
--actually,according to ep1's ending,ep1's letter was found YEARS after the murders. nothing about ep4's letters have been revealed yet other than that one was found and it talked about the witch.
--so,what you are saying about "scenarios where Eva is dead in a world where she isn't."is another thing that hasnt been revealed yet >_>
--and until we fully know the contents of said letters,the big question remains of what their benefit is to their writer.

I'm pretty sure bullet point 3 should've been revealed already. My apologies for getting the order of scenes wrong. I JUST reread EP4 too.

also aura,i am curious about what you thought about the riddle solution!what you think about the narrative,any plot holes,what parts are great/bad,what i did right/wrong,etc,so that i can improve my writing ability if i ever decide to make another one of these in the future

To be frank, I don't enjoy these sorts of puzzles. I solved Umineko through the characterization and subtleties in the narrative, so a cold list of facts was useless to me. It all felt like it came out of nowhere compared to what you wrote down.

[FFTHEWINNER]

clarification of the situation: i am currently undergoing a most difficult trial known as the midterm exams. said trial is draining me dry. as soon as said trial ends,i will return to the crying seagulls

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER

clarification of the situation: i am currently undergoing a most difficult trial known as the midterm exams. said trial is draining me dry. as soon as said trial ends,i will return to the crying seagulls

That is good to hear

Success with your midterm exams.

[FFTHEWINNER]

Merry Christmas Everyone!!!

My severe apologies for not posting anything lately. i can only say that i have been really busy with tons of stuff. hopefully i will be able to post soon :/

also,quite excited about code geass season 3! just heard about it yesterday lol XD

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER

Merry Christmas Everyone!!!

My severe apologies for not posting anything lately. i can only say that i have been really busy with tons of stuff. hopefully i will be able to post soon :/

also,quite excited about code geass season 3! just heard about it yesterday lol XD

We're looking forward to your posts