[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

About "sleep". Rosa falls asleep in ep1, Battler falls asleep around the same time in ep2. Eva falls asleep several times in ep3. I wonder about ep4...

Anyway I dunno, it's kinda strange that Battler falls asleep in ep2.

[Nih]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

About "sleep". Rosa falls asleep in ep1, Battler falls asleep around the same time in ep2. Eva falls asleep several times in ep3. I wonder about ep4...

Anyway I dunno, it's kinda strange that Battler falls asleep in ep2.

It's also implied that Maria falls asleep in ep4. At least I hope MARIA killing Rosa over and over was just a dream.

[Alair]

Why did Beatrice let so much go in Battler's challenges? I can only think of two seemingly plausible reasons,

1: Beatrice truly just wants to hury up and lose so she can finally die.

2: Beatrice regards all that as being inconsequential before trying to force him to remember his great, unremembered sin - which presumably her last riddle is linked to.

Originally Posted by Nih

It's also implied that Maria falls asleep in ep4. At least I hope MARIA killing Rosa over and over was just a dream.

I absolutely do not. I was cheering her on with every stomp.

Really Rosa was just... ghastly in this episode.

[SealedTime]

I hated Rosa since EPI 2 ..so I was pretty much cheering MARIA on when she did that.
>__>

I think his sin has something to do with Asumu.. Since he went on "strike" at the same time.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Nih

It's also implied that Maria falls asleep in ep4. At least I hope MARIA killing Rosa over and over was just a dream.

That's true, I have forgotten that. Maria does fall asleep in Ep4. And that mean each episode has a different person that falls asleep. However I wonder what implications that could have °°;

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's true, I have forgotten that. Maria does fall asleep in Ep4. And that mean each episode has a different person that falls asleep. However I wonder what implications that could have °°;

Personally I'm still of the opinion that it was really all just a dream by Maria eerily appended to Rosa's... well death by Siesta.

On another note, siesta would mean a nap or a rest. Similar to sleep. I think I may be seeing a connection here...

[Jan-Poo]

Being completely anti-fantasy myself I certainly do not think that it really happened XD.

The dream itself is a red herring imho, but the fact that people fall asleep could have some significance.

[rogerpepitone]

Like the fact that whoever falls asleep survives fairly long, except for Rosa in ep. 1 (or was it Natsuhi who fell asleep?).

[Jan-Poo]

It was Rosa after going berserk on Maria. Genji accidentally woke her up when he tried to cover her with a blanket

[June 1983]

Can I ask a question? It may have come up, but I haven't been able to make it through this whole thread. It's technically about the events of Ep 3, but about the way they are presented in 1998 in Ep 4.

How likely do you think it is that Eva's story about the deaths being "accidents" is true? The thing that kept puzzling me about that is that clearly the police eventually believed her, but I don't think we are ever given a description of how the bodies were found. If you are anti-fantasy, which I am (or at least, I think if magic does exist, it doesn't work the way Beatrice says it does, and it isn't the cause of the murders), it's pretty difficult to think of how Eva would have been able to kill all of them and then disguise it to look like some kind of mass accident, unless the manners of death we were shown were vastly different from what actually happened. Hell, if Battler was really shot by Eva, how would she disguise that as an accident? In EP 4, when Ange is having her revelation about the source of, shall we say, "black magic", she almost seems to accept that Eva might have been telling the truth, and of course Okonogi believed her too. This might not mean anything, but it's something that has been bothering me.

Sorry if this has been discussed already!

[rogerpepitone]

It's mentioned that Eva had to have at least some of the victims declared legally dead, so either the bodies weren't found (thrown into the ocean?) or were unrecognizable after death.

[Saerianne]

Originally Posted by ghost_zero5

@Saerianne:
Actually, Beatrice is more or less just "following" the Epitah's ressuraction ceremony.
It doesn't mean that she is really considering the family as interest. The was just what the family interpreted. She never said so.
AND even IF: If I am not mistaken: She can't act outside the island as long as Battler denies her existence.

Furthermore, we don't know if Ange survived all four times. After all, only one Ange appeared and that was the one from Ep3 where Eva was able to solve the riddle and therefore stop the collection of the interest. Actually, the question is: She also said that she would return everything that was already collected but that didn't happen - if we consider the "family" interest.

Ahh yup, yup. That makes sense. Sorry about that.

[Marion]

It's implied by Beatrice that no Ange survives more than a decade after 1986. Usually she's killed by Kasumi or commits suicide (hence being on the skyscraper)

[Klashikari]

No, that isn't implied like this. It just imply such kind of sorrow could span over a decade, but that's it.
You also have this line:
"Therefore, your anxiety over Ange's misfortune after this might be needless. ............She might, surprisingly, be able to live a casual life without having to work thanks to Rudolf's inheritance, right?"

Even if it would be a very rare occurence, it is probably possible even if there is that crazy Kasumi around.

[Marion]

But Ange's 6 when the murders occur. Wouldn't most of that money be transferred to her legal guardian, which is most likely Kasumi as the closest living relative?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by June 1983

Can I ask a question? It may have come up, but I haven't been able to make it through this whole thread. It's technically about the events of Ep 3, but about the way they are presented in 1998 in Ep 4.

How likely do you think it is that Eva's story about the deaths being "accidents" is true? The thing that kept puzzling me about that is that clearly the police eventually believed her, but I don't think we are ever given a description of how the bodies were found. If you are anti-fantasy, which I am (or at least, I think if magic does exist, it doesn't work the way Beatrice says it does, and it isn't the cause of the murders), it's pretty difficult to think of how Eva would have been able to kill all of them and then disguise it to look like some kind of mass accident, unless the manners of death we were shown were vastly different from what actually happened. Hell, if Battler was really shot by Eva, how would she disguise that as an accident? In EP 4, when Ange is having her revelation about the source of, shall we say, "black magic", she almost seems to accept that Eva might have been telling the truth, and of course Okonogi believed her too. This might not mean anything, but it's something that has been bothering me.

Sorry if this has been discussed already!

When I read Ep4 the second time, I've been reading carefully any hint that could tell what is the official story about that event.

In conclusion I think you can be pretty certain that the whole event was considered an accident, and not only Eva wasn't prosecuted, but no investigation, except maybe some preliminary course was made. Officially it wasn't a crime and no criminal or culprit has been searched.

When people refers to it they usually call it: "unfortunate accident". Of course sometimes even a crime can be called "accident" but there are a few sentences that prove otherwise:

Okonogi: "That crime was, ...no, that accident. If I call it a crime, I'll get in trouble."

Not sure what kind of "trouble" he was referring to, but if it was officially recognized as a crime he wouldn't say so.

Nanjo Jr: "That was an unfortunate accident. The only ones who want to make a fuss about it being a crime are the irresponsible TV shows and magazines. I am more than fed up with their attitude."

This sentence yet again proves that officially it wasn't a crime. If it was, Nanjo wouldn't say that it is irresponsible to say otherwise. Plus Nanjo clealry says that the "only ones" are TV shows and magazines. The police and the institutions aren't in the list.

Even so, for some reasons, probably because of the message in the bottle and the fact that Eva was hated, magazines and TV shows started on speculating that Eva killed her whole family. I don't think they can be trusted that much because the same media are said to have portrait George as a very bad person which afaik nothing could be farther from the truth.
This kind of pressure from the public forced the institutions to reopen the case and investigate further. However nothing of the sort was done before that. Also it doesn't appear that they have found anything that would compromise Eva or that would make them change their original conclusion that it was an unfortunate incident and not a crime.

[Kamar]

After finishing Alliance last week, it seemed to me that the 'final solution' has more or less been set in stone.

Bern and LD were triggering loser flags like crazy in that last hidden tea party; I half expected to hear a chime and see a counter in the corner. I can't see Beatrice not winning in some way, now.

[Jan-Poo]

Ha ha, that was my same reaction, and I think that Ryukishi did that on purpose to fuck with our mind again.

After showing that clearly the concept of "loser flag" it is almost impossible to look at the secret tea party without imagining a giant loser flag point there. The point is there was no need to confirm that strongly that Beatrice was never going to win, because that's what everyone is giving for granted. For Beatrice to win, Battler needs to accept witches, and if he does that he loses, and if he loses that's game over, bad end. No one is expecting a bad end, and therefore no one is expecting Beatrice to win. So that last scene strikes me as an incredibly clever reverse psychology attempt to make us doubt that Beatrice can't win.

Even so, Beatrice winning means that Battler cannot explain everything with human tricks, which mean everything was done by a witch. Such outcome is really unthinkable, are we being toyed until now? That can't be. Ryukishi in one of his latest interviews said that everything will be explained in the end, that this is a riddle with a solution. If everything was done with magic then this isn't even a riddle. With magic you can explain anything.

[Rias]

I wonder if the solution will be similar to Higurashi. Recall Higurashi's central question was similar, if things were really happening, or if it's all supernatural forces working in the background. In the end, it was actually both. While the supernatural forces didn't do enough to affect the mystery part, they do exist nonetheless.

If Umineko is similar, that means that all the tricks are still done by the humans, but there IS the witch Beatrice screwing around

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Rias

If Umineko is similar, that means that all the tricks are still done by the humans, but there IS the witch Beatrice screwing around

My problem with trying to explain everything with human tricks is that it makes everyone on the island into a culprit to an unrealistic extent, as Battler discovers over the course of the games.

I think that what matters more is not whether Battler's eventual explanation for events is true, but whether it makes sense.

But I'm Anti-Mystery and as such disagree with 99.9% of the fandom anyway. =P