2013-10-22, 14:47 | Link #2282 |
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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Even to a high degree, yes. Management gets the blame for putting the wrong people together. They are paid appropriately to make the right decisions so people get to keep their jobs and grow their business. To me, it seems like you and people who share your argument don't understand the notion that organizations need to be ... organized. An organisation sets goals so that each and every one of its members works towards it. For that to happen, there needs to be some sort of structure in place to keep the machine going. The management at the very least has a say in which direction the works should be taken, if not, they are lousy managers.
In the end, the product is out and us viewers get to decide whether we like it or not. The thing with hardcore fans such as yourself is that you don't just watch the product, you are also interested in the production schedule, so it is easy to say "well, Ishidate fucked up." But someone like me, I just see the product. I decide whether it's worth my attention or not and post about it. Yes, real people stand behind a brand, what a revelation! But this goes for everything else in life, not just your favorite anime studio. In fact, if I look at it with this in mind, I kind of feel sorry for Ishidate, not because he's taking so much crap from us and his loyal fans throwing him under the bus to protect The Brand, but because he probably didn't have complete control over the creation of this work. If he did, he probably would have been doing independent animation. But I understand what it means to be part of an organization, not sure you guys do. |
2013-10-22, 14:51 | Link #2283 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
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Freelance directors and newcomers aren't exactly reflecting the whole studio. Otherwise, you are telling me that KyoAni is completely schizophrenic considering how certain series like LS has glaring difference in term of scenes despite being the same studio and same series. Likewise, I really doubt you can define studio like A-1 picture considering the huge amount of directors they hire, and they aren't the only studios doing that. On the same tangeant, you can recognize gimmicks from the same director in different series from different studio: Kishi Seiji for his persistent tendency to add gameplay gimmicks in his adaptations, Yamauchi and his retro style and peculiar animation preferences, etc etc. Defining a studio with a director is not exactly applicable unless the said director has worked with a given studio for a certain time. On the other hand, depending of the director, you can easily recognize their "touch" and perspective due to how a series was produced, regardless of the studio involved.
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2013-10-22, 15:00 | Link #2285 | |
He Without a Title
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Location: The land of tempura
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2013-10-22, 15:04 | Link #2286 |
On a mission
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I really wish I could just say to a customer "It wasn't my fault, we just hired the guy that screwed up". That's never worked well in my experience though even if I successfully convince people it's someone else's fault.
Coming as someone that gets yelled at a lot for assigning people that screwed up, I can't say I care for such distinctions. A screw up on the company's worker part, is the company's fault. And the ones on top will pay regardless of who's at fault. Case in point-- people on Yelp don't review individuals. The lost revenue from mishaps is still lost revenue regardless of who did it. Doesn't matter if you fire the one at fault if the customer's trust is already hurt. I'd like to hear more from the numerous armchair businessmen on the internet though. There's those outlier cases where the employee went crazy or some shit, and sure in those cases you can't blame the business. I don't think we're discussing that. Blame shifting is just a business/politics game in which you try to avoid the axe. I do it all the time, but in reality most of us know we're just kidding ourselves. It has no place in legitimate discussions. This is why they always try to blame the customer. We can go on about how things are out of one's control and they are but a cog in the machine, but ultimately this is true of most jobs. This view is akin to scrunching against a building with a magnifying glass and deciding this is the truth. Missing the forrest for the trees, eh? And the truth is that a manager that hires subpar employees didn't do a good job of hiring. This is exactly why we view these entities as a whole; blaming the cogs isn't very meaningful. "Windows didn't crash, explorer.exe did!" And none of this makes Kyoto Animation any better or worse. There's no point in trying to shift blame or praise away or from stuff; what matters is the product that comes out.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-10-22 at 15:22. |
2013-10-22, 16:23 | Link #2287 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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No. Studios often suggest a particular director, but there's no rule of thumb. Sometimes the recommendation might come from an external producer (i.e. someone at Aniplex) or another staff member, such as the lead writer. At the end of the day, the production committee signs off on the selection as a group.
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2013-10-22, 16:31 | Link #2288 | ||
Nyahahahaha♥
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The role of ensuring that progress is made falls upon the Project Manager (and you'll see them credited for each episode they work on). They are in charge of ensuring that work is completed on time. There's the organization you are mentioning cyth. The Project Manager does not control the content; that is up to the director/series composer followed by episode director/storyboarder and then even the key animator makes some decisions upon how to present a scene. To me, when you say "KyoAni screwed up!" there is ton of ambiguity behind said statement to the point of nothingness. Instead of blaming the company as a whole (which happens frequently amongst anime fandom), it's certain people who are of fault, just like certain people are to credit when things go well. I know it takes more effort to learn who's in charge of things, but it's worthwhile to realize who you really want to blame and who you want to credit so you can make better viewing decisions later. The examples given of random organizations/programs don't really fit into the entertainment structure like they do elsewhere. There's a certain amount of control given to the director of a project that doesn't fit other corporate structures. They're more hands-on than project leads in gaming/software creation to counter Wing's example. This is their vision of the project. Klash gave great examples of directors that have their own quirks that would be present regardless of what studio was assigned to animate that particular project. Nope. Studios do not hire directors, the producers hire the director and pay them separately from the animation budget.
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2013-10-22, 17:40 | Link #2289 | |
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Age: 38
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Let me give an example, I used to be a big data geek as well, wanted to know all information about upcoming anime. Quite frequently I would find myself correcting others that such and such information hasn't been officially confirmed. This "official framework" was what to me was the scope of acceptable information. But we know that this world isn't ideal. The Japanese are very good at keeping information about their internal processes private unless they want to release it. They are usually very selective about what they release. Some simply lie, but the best lies are half-truths, the unfinished picture. This is just typical PR stuff, so I don't want to call anyone a liar, they are just doing their best to keep the brand as palatable and as presentable to the world as humanly possible. Japan's anime industry has to compete with new emerging otaku industries. Part of this effort is to look for new business models. Most new business models in the otaku biz these days talk about how to package what they call "communication." You can see this in the way many Japanese otaku buy BDs because of participatory reasons. Similarly, I would not exclude the possibility that the numerous interviews, booklets, guidebooks, even personal tweets can be part of making brands more engaging for fans. The way some fans refer to directors, script writers, lead animators etc. by their names, the amount of love the studio receives while the critics and the trolls aren't around, the kind words ... KyoAni fans really love the studio. I don't see so much love anywhere else. But I believe this is for a reason. There is more information available about them. Their PR works. They have a way to connect to their audience unlike many other studios (perhaps Trigger does this better because Twitter) and they say the right things. So when you talk about the internal structure of how entertainment production works, you're not really saying much about it, just what was told in these official, controlled interviews and publications. We all know how the creative process is supposed to be. The director is more like a coordinator who keeps the project going. They have more or less creative control, depending on the project. But because the public can cling to an established idea of how the creative process works, it's also easier to feed information and play to stereotypes. It's easy to say "director X worked tirelessly to produce the best storyboard with the writers", "we all enjoyed working on Y character, I fell in love with her ww" when you have the luxury to keep quiet about other things. The fans don't really have the right idea how the production played out. What you guys have is either presented to you, extrapolated or assumed. Who knows what kind of organizational structure they really have. Maybe it's flat, maybe it's hierarchical, maybe someone holds more creative control because he's favored with some investor, maybe the script writer is a stuck-up old man nobody dares to oppose, etc. Really, we don't know. The product is called a product because it's at an intersection of different parts of the creative process. The director had a big part in how that went, but who knows what has influenced his decisions, which of his decisions got overwritten etc. Example: Yamakan's control got taken away, he wasn't let to do his thing and was subsequently fired. That's why pointing the finger at Ishidate is irresponsible, especially if you're on a quest to promote higher awareness of the studio's inner workings. But at some point you have to realize what was presented to you is all made up to a certain degree. Last edited by cyth; 2013-10-22 at 17:55. |
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2013-10-22, 18:04 | Link #2290 | |||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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But that's not really my point. I'm talking about simple reputation. If A-1 as a company is unable to coordinate enough talented staff, or manage a project and a budget for each work they are contracted for, the quality of their works will suffer. If they consistently produce mediocrity across the board... Well yes, each individual project is going to matter in the grand scheme of things. Together, it builds the studio's portfolio, and hence reputation. I think maybe you're combining my view point with someone else because little of what I have been saying is about the "style" of the studio, and more about the reputation. I was simply commenting on the idea that somehow it is incorrect to levy criticism towards the studio as a whole simply because some of their staff members or contracted people screwed up. This is not how things work in the real world. Now if you want to pick and choose who deserves the most blame within a given project, that's another discussion. I think cyth did quite well to point out the dangers in such an approach. Quote:
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There is a reason why people freaked out when JC Staff chose to adapt Little Busters, including Klash if I am to call someone out here (Nothing personal). This is despite JC Staff being a huge studio with many many works, and many different directors filtering through their system.
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2013-10-22, 18:35 | Link #2291 |
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I think a pro sports analogy works pretty well here.
Let's say KyoAni is the New York Yankees. The New York Yankees General Manager is like whoever makes hiring decisions for KyoAni, and has some level of oversight over the company as a whole. The New York Yankees Manager (same as a Coach in most team sports) is like the Director for a KyoAni show. Now, the Yankees get off to a horrible start, and most Yankees fans blame the Manager. Let's say the fans are right. Then yes, most of the fault lies with the Manager. He takes the lion's share of the blame. But if the Yankees General Manager doesn't replace the Manager in a reasonably timely fashion (at the very least, having a new Manager to start next season), then the Yankees General Manager is going to start taking some flak himself. Unfortunately, we don't really know who makes hiring decisions for KyoAni (well, ultimatemegax might know, but most of us don't) so we can only talk about KyoAni as a full organization when it comes to their top-level decision-making because there's no other name to go to. Now, KnK might bounce back. Or it might simply have slow and steady improvement that means it eventually becomes a really good show for a solid majority of viewers. I'm not ruling that out. If that happens, then Ishidate becomes vindicated, and most of this conversation becomes moot. But, just for argument's sake, let's say that KnK becomes a disappointed and doesn't sell that well. Then at the very least I'd expect Ishidate to not be back for any KnK sequel, and I'd expect KyoAni to go to a different Director for their next couple of shows. Do we all agree on that much, at least? That if KnK bombs, then "KyoAni" (whoever makes hiring/oversight decisions there) bears responsibility to take corrective measures for that.
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2013-10-22, 18:54 | Link #2292 | |
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2013-10-22, 19:42 | Link #2293 | |
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Besides, if we take your argument to its logical conclusion then it means that absolutely everything KyoAni does becomes beyond criticism, and the studio can never be questioned for any of its decisions. I find that a very narrow and overly restrictive approach for anime viewers to take to the anime industry.
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2013-10-22, 21:14 | Link #2294 | |
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(And honestly, on some off-chance that any Kyoto Animation executive were to read this thread, the "here's how I'd run your business" or "here's who I choose to blame for the problem I perceive" stuff is totally useless because we simply can't know. What's valuable is the raw, honest opinion about the product itself.)
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2013-10-22, 22:15 | Link #2295 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2011
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Different directors have different approaches, which can be told apart; executive meddling and collab brainstorming exist, probably quite a bit in an organized business such as Kyoani (as opposed to, say, early 00s Studio 4ºC), but the big staffers, the guiding hands of the product give the final call, and it doesn't really matter who influenced them or where they got their ideas. You'll have other staffers to credit for their specialized tasks. I don't really care about marketing interviews and such things, I take them with a grain of salt. But reading the credits and building exposure give you a definite perspective on the approaches of the staffers. I wouldn't really hold it to Ishidate - KnK is well-produced, polished for what it is, even if it doesn't break any new ground. I just think the material is terrible. Of course it's the job of the director and screenwriter to make things palatable as they see fit, but they're not here to change the entire personality and core of what they're adapting. It's still a very commercial project with a clear target audience it wants to please. In the end, whether or not people generally blame "Kyoani" or "Ishidate" for a show they didn't like seems more a matter of semantics to me. You can't expect everyone to know the intricacies of the production process and get acquainted with the staff (not even fans; how many people are Kyoani fans because they find Haruhi moe?), and they shouldn't be expected to know the technical backstage details of the entertainment they consume. Of course, that doesn't excuse all the posts that happen in this thread whenever a show by this studio airs, and some people feel the need to repeat how they're "getting desperate", aren't using "the most profitable strategy" or other terrible diatribes on the "Kyoani brand". I do think you can talk about the studio as a sort of whole, especially a close-knit bunch like Kyoani. It's similar to Gainax in its early days where Anno and Sadamoto helmed everything. This shouldn't mean disregarding specificity and individuals, but they're all under the same name in the end. I think there's a distinct feel common to most Kyoani works, and I have already talked about it in this thread. At the same time, I can easily hold the opinion that Hyouka has a certain finesse and tact that is lacking in their other shows, or that Nichijou was a breakthrough in aesthetics and animation. |
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2013-10-25, 09:47 | Link #2299 | |
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Now Ishidate as a director, hmm, something tells me he needs to learn how to build a foundation for the premise and setting. I found it strangely off-putting in a KyoAni show that he missed that considering all other KyoAni shows manage to enamor me with their settings even stuff like Tamako Market, Nichijou, and FMP: the Second Raid. I don't have a rating until Kyoukai no Kanata is done, but something tells me he's going to feel a very heavy blow when that series doesn't become a hit compared to the last 2 upcoming directors Yamada and Utsumi who did made big hits with K-ON and Free respectively.
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2013-10-28, 09:43 | Link #2300 | |
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The production committee of course. Who else? |
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