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Old 2007-01-27, 20:05   Link #301
npal
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You know, Skane discussed this various times before giving her a chance. I'm just a tad bit harder on that aspect

Plus, I'm one who anticipates things rather than wait for them to happen and them pick up the pieces

And I DID say that it's LOOKING that it'll follow the same route and my whole previous post was a speculation comparing Toei's and KyoAni's versions and predicting the ending based on stuff so far. What was wrong about that? Or should I have kept my opinion on Toei's ending for myself? I believe it was well known before my last post My main point wasn't "I won't like it", it was "the way things are, I assume I won't like it". So yeah, of course a miracle can happen and I'll like it, but my speculation suggests otherwise and I voiced that. What's so wrong with that?
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Old 2007-01-27, 20:51   Link #302
orion
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Wow, what a lively discussion!

About Shiori...
I'm kind of skeptical that a doctor can actually say you will die after 12 midnight on X day of Y month. Just not possible with modern technology. Her doctor would have to be a supreme deity to do something like that. I think that her family misinterpreted the estimate. It's prob a range, like within so many months after your next birthday. She could die but not in ep. 18 (PSP release date 2/15/07). She looks to well imo, although she's not eating that much. Like maybe in the Spring, Fall or Winter of that year again... Life is uncertain. Death is certain. Time of death is uncertain.

About Ayu...
Yeah, it is possible that she could be killed off to create a lot of angst, angry the gamers and make Key/Visual Arts an eternal enemy (Clannad, Planetarian anyone?). Totally damper that PSP release that's planned next month...

I still think that this title is more about the miracle than the sacrifice to get to one. Miracles don't happen every day. Ayu is a miracle in the making imo. Besides, they make such a cute couple.

But, I do agree that the scenario needs to be reasonable. But, realism was tossed out the door a long time ago with Mai, Makoto and to a certain extent Shiori imo.

Oh yeah, I didn't feel cheated at all with the Ayu 2k2 ending. Though she needed another kiss imo. I'm rooting for Ayu to get more than just 1 kiss this time.

Ascaloth made a really neat insight into those ending types imo.

Welcome back, npal.
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Old 2007-01-27, 21:07   Link #303
npal
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Yeah, the doctor can predict, but doctors usually want to be safe, so I expect Shiori to NOT die on her birthday (some even live for months after the speculated deadline). However, there are rare cases when doctors err the other way and something happens and the condition gets terminal BEFORE what the doctor initially gives as deadline. Although if a doctor says "maximum of 2 years", you should note the possibility that it could happen earlier. The family doesn't need to ever concern themselves with that anyway, just to make the patient as happy as possible until the situation becomes critical. And Kaori fails in that aspect, but that's not the point right now

Well, a magic setting must draw the line somewhere, and I think I've said that on various threads. If writers justify everything with miracles, it'll get lame eventually, and many magic shows are plagued with magic being used everywhere to get the writers out of a difficult situation to think of something more plausible. In this case, KyoAni can still pull miracles and save people, but saving Shiori, Akiko AND Ayu is 3 more people saved by means of a miracle... I do think it's too high a count if you also add Mai. Makoto seems the only one to have just her original miracle happen and nothing more and so has Mai more or less. Ayu though is already getting a miracle of projecting herself, add her wishes to that, she's getting an insane amount of miracles. Then she uses her last one for Akiko, yet comes back again? As I look at it, one of those two has to be deprived of a miracle. Either Ayu uses her wish for Akiko or herself. Having both live is too much, even for a magic setting. At least, that's what I thought when I watched Toei's version.
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Old 2007-01-27, 21:30   Link #304
orion
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Shiori being saved means a complete recovery from her condition. Ain't going to happen, not with what she said in ep. 17 imo. At the most, they could probably give her an extension so that she dies after Spring. Leave it an open ending (Just like Air TV can be interpreted that way if you haven't played the game.).

I always viewed Ayu as being in between. Projecting herself isn't the true miracle, rather it's helping her to get to the point to make the miracle occur imo. The miracle occurs when she makes her final decision to face pain, suffering along with happiness and to return to reality. She can't run away from her mother's death forever imo.

I rationalized 2k2 this way... Ayu's miracle was a generalized one and affected the entire room, 'cuz even the flowers got a new lease on life in Akiko's room and spilled over next door and affected the real Ayu. Or Ayu got those good karma points for self-sacrifice and cashed them in.

In the immortal words of Ibarahime... Don't sweat the small stuff!
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Old 2007-01-27, 22:02   Link #305
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
You know, Skane discussed this various times before giving her a chance. I'm just a tad bit harder on that aspect

Plus, I'm one who anticipates things rather than wait for them to happen and them pick up the pieces

And I DID say that it's LOOKING that it'll follow the same route and my whole previous post was a speculation comparing Toei's and KyoAni's versions and predicting the ending based on stuff so far. What was wrong about that? Or should I have kept my opinion on Toei's ending for myself? I believe it was well known before my last post My main point wasn't "I won't like it", it was "the way things are, I assume I won't like it". So yeah, of course a miracle can happen and I'll like it, but my speculation suggests otherwise and I voiced that. What's so wrong with that?
Nothing wrong with it. It just makes you look like a bloodthirsty psychopath out for the blood of uguu~, that's all. No biggie. J/K

You're just freaking me out, that's about as bad as it gets. Again, no biggie. J/K

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
Yeah, the doctor can predict, but doctors usually want to be safe, so I expect Shiori to NOT die on her birthday (some even live for months after the speculated deadline). However, there are rare cases when doctors err the other way and something happens and the condition gets terminal BEFORE what the doctor initially gives as deadline. Although if a doctor says "maximum of 2 years", you should note the possibility that it could happen earlier. The family doesn't need to ever concern themselves with that anyway, just to make the patient as happy as possible until the situation becomes critical. And Kaori fails in that aspect, but that's not the point right now

Well, a magic setting must draw the line somewhere, and I think I've said that on various threads. If writers justify everything with miracles, it'll get lame eventually, and many magic shows are plagued with magic being used everywhere to get the writers out of a difficult situation to think of something more plausible. In this case, KyoAni can still pull miracles and save people, but saving Shiori, Akiko AND Ayu is 3 more people saved by means of a miracle... I do think it's too high a count if you also add Mai. Makoto seems the only one to have just her original miracle happen and nothing more and so has Mai more or less. Ayu though is already getting a miracle of projecting herself, add her wishes to that, she's getting an insane amount of miracles. Then she uses her last one for Akiko, yet comes back again? As I look at it, one of those two has to be deprived of a miracle. Either Ayu uses her wish for Akiko or herself. Having both live is too much, even for a magic setting. At least, that's what I thought when I watched Toei's version.
I'm not sure, but I'm thinking why you hated Toei's Kanon that much was because Toei screwed Ayu's arc so badly in the first place. Thus, giving Ayu-haters the impression that taiyaki-fangirl gets more than her fair share of miracles, when in fact that may not necessarily be the case.

Think about it. In Toei, Ayu's revival took all of one episode, and it was the last one, at that. Even I have to admit, that looks real cheap; Yuuichi tells her to wake up, and she does? Even so, for those baying for her blood, here's an observation I've made so far based on what limited knowledge of the Kanon-verse I have;

It's been stated repeatedly that Ayu has been in a coma for seven years. However, as far as I remember, there was never once a case where it's been stated that Ayu spent those seven years in critical condition.

Get the drift? She may never have woken up in seven years, but nowhere does it say she was in any real danger of expiring, either. So she takes a knock to the head and loses more blood than if someone popped her cherry. Sure, she definitively would be in critical condition after that.....but how long can your live be in serious danger after an accident? It may be a long time, but seven years certainly is stretching it a little, don't you think?

More likely, at least to my hypothesis, is that Ayu's physical condition stabilizes after some time, a while after Yuuichi skips town and doesn't come back, not until seven years later. But even so, she doesn't wake up because she's lost hope in life.....and it takes the trigger of Yuuichi returning by her side to wake her. Therefore, it's not really a miracle; it's just that the trigger for her accepting herself and her own grief has come back to her, thus the happy ending.

In fact, if it turns out in KyoAni's adaptation that Yuuichi has to spend days by the comatose Ayu's side, as opposed to in Toei when she literally wakes up the second he tells her to, wouldn't you concede that my hypothesis makes even more sense then? Because I have a feeling this is the path KyoAni would take with the Ayu arc.
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Old 2007-01-27, 22:24   Link #306
orion
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Oh, please God noooo! If he spends days by her side, then it's a series recap (Kanon Memories).

She better have that romantic reunion if we have to sit thru days of Yuichi sitting by her side.
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Old 2007-01-27, 22:26   Link #307
Richard 23
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Hairband: a nod and a wink to Kanon 2002, or something more? It wasn't in the game, so what's up? Discuss, or ignore, if you like....
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Old 2007-01-27, 22:28   Link #308
Ascaloth
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Oh, please God noooo! If he spends days by her side, then it's a series recap (Kanon Memories).
LOL.....okay, let me rephrase that. How does "he spends an indeterminate amount of time, which could be anything from minutes, to hours, to days", sound?

As long as it's not the Toei cheap shot of Ayu awakening immediately, then it might be a better way of handling the whole thing, no?
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Old 2007-01-27, 22:41   Link #309
orion
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Well, I actually prefer what I think is the game version true ending...

Ayu awakening alone in her hospital room. It is more realistic and has more impact. Allows Ayu to verbalize to us what she's thinking at the moment of awakening. Allow us to see her journey back to reality.

Akiko hears it on TV and tells him. Then Yuichi can run to the hospital, come into her room, tearful, cries, hugs her..... Stuff like that.


-----

The hairband was in the game IIRC. It wasn't presented in the same way as 2k2 (found in his packed box at the beginning of 2k2). I thought it was interesting that she remembers the hairband and not the events surrounding it.
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Old 2007-01-27, 22:52   Link #310
Devil Doll
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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
Think about it. In Toei, Ayu's revival took all of one episode, and it was the last one, at that. Even I have to admit, that looks real cheap; Yuuichi tells her to wake up, and she does?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
As long as it's not the Toei cheap shot of Ayu awakening immediately, then it might be a better way of handling the whole thing, no?
What exactly was the difference between this and the Mai ending in 2k6? Yuuichi literally told Mai to wake up from her long dream, and she did (using a strange method but still...). In both situations Yuuichi returned to this girl after a number of years and even brought a symbolic device along, one he gave to this girl as a present years ago. I don't think one is "cheaper" than the other. Both girls depend on Yuuichi (Mai in the 2k6 version does at least, causing a problem for me as Yuuichi can't stay at her side forever given he has two more arcs to go while Sayuri definitely can, making the 2k2 variant more consistent for me), and as Kanon is a magical show the medical diagnoses seem to be irrelevant (which I don't like but apparently is part of the scenario so I have to accept it; Kanon is Kanon, not KGNE).

As for the expectations for forthcoming arcs, I guess it has something to do with how we interpret the "Kanon" theme. Those who want Kanon to be five variations of the same theme with the lead being a hero will be happy about the game providing this story, those who want Kanon to be five different arcs with five surprising endings and the lead being Ikari Shinji will be happy about 2k2 providing this kind of story.
Not having played the game I am not sure in how far 2k6 took liberties away from the game but I get the feeling it will in fact be quite close to the game... making me expect Yuuichi to "win" all five arc, regardless of how cheesy that might look. The more superheroish Yuuichi appears, the less impact will the drama/tragedy have in the end - at least for me. Suspense has a lot to do with the audience believing that the hero might actually fail... which is the one department where 2k6 doesn't deliver so far. Kanon strangely reminds me of Record of Lodoss Wars: The OVA was short, rushed, incomplete but tasted like a drama; the TV series was long, detailed, complete but smelled like a game.

But given the discussion here so far, Kanon 2006 has definitely succeeded in the most important aspect: It has caused the fans to watch it breathlessly, regardless whether they'll be happy with the outcome.
I had the same feeling with Suzuka back then even though that series lost steam several episodes before the end - but siding with certain characters was the most fun while watching. Speculating about who will survive and who will not is definitely part of my fun while watching 2k6 for the first time; plausibility and stuff will rather be relevant for the number of times I'll rewatch this series.
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Old 2007-01-28, 10:23   Link #311
Ascaloth
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Well, I actually prefer what I think is the game version true ending...

Ayu awakening alone in her hospital room. It is more realistic and has more impact. Allows Ayu to verbalize to us what she's thinking at the moment of awakening. Allow us to see her journey back to reality.

Akiko hears it on TV and tells him. Then Yuichi can run to the hospital, come into her room, tearful, cries, hugs her..... Stuff like that.
You know, that might work just as well too, if KyoAni handles it properly. And who's the brave soul who'll dare to bet that they won't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
What exactly was the difference between this and the Mai ending in 2k6? Yuuichi literally told Mai to wake up from her long dream, and she did (using a strange method but still...). In both situations Yuuichi returned to this girl after a number of years and even brought a symbolic device along, one he gave to this girl as a present years ago. I don't think one is "cheaper" than the other. Both girls depend on Yuuichi (Mai in the 2k6 version does at least, causing a problem for me as Yuuichi can't stay at her side forever given he has two more arcs to go while Sayuri definitely can, making the 2k2 variant more consistent for me), and as Kanon is a magical show the medical diagnoses seem to be irrelevant (which I don't like but apparently is part of the scenario so I have to accept it; Kanon is Kanon, not KGNE).
Erm, why exactly are we comparing the 2k2 Ayu Conclusion with the 2k6 Mai Conclusion, again? Pardon me, but I kind of feel it's like comparing taiyaki to gyuudon (YES, pun FULLY intended ).

But yes, you do have a point there. If there's something I don't particularly like about KyoAni's Kanon so far, it would be that they didn't really do much of a better job closing Mai's arc than Toei did, although props must be given to them for focusing on the part of Mai's story that Toei and the manga entirely neglected altogether. Maybe they screwed up, maybe they couldn't avoid it, but yeah, I couldn't give Episode 15 the perfect 10 either because of that.

Nevertheless, comparing Mai's conclusion to Ayu is just putting things out of context, don't you think? We're talking about 2k2's handling of the Ayu conclusion, and the options that KyoAni will have in their coming handling of the Ayu conclusion. Don't throw Mai in the mix where she doesn't belong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
Not having played the game I am not sure in how far 2k6 took liberties away from the game but I get the feeling it will in fact be quite close to the game... making me expect Yuuichi to "win" all five arc, regardless of how cheesy that might look. The more superheroish Yuuichi appears, the less impact will the drama/tragedy have in the end - at least for me. Suspense has a lot to do with the audience believing that the hero might actually fail... which is the one department where 2k6 doesn't deliver so far. Kanon strangely reminds me of Record of Lodoss Wars: The OVA was short, rushed, incomplete but tasted like a drama; the TV series was long, detailed, complete but smelled like a game.
I disagree, DD, about the part where 2k6 fails to deliver suspense in the form of the audience believing that the hero might actually fail. I honestly am afraid for Yuuichi right now as of Episode 17, in fact. Afraid that he'll fail to convince Shiori to want to live past the stroke of midnight, or something to that effect, as it were.
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Old 2007-01-28, 11:58   Link #312
orion
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Yeah, if Shiori buys the big one after midnight, then we're going to see a massive spiral into depression from Yuichi. Then it's Ayu's and Akiko's turn. Those 2 could see setbacks imo if Shiori can't pull thru at least until Spring imo. Ayu's path gets tougher to climb (She could even die too since those 2 girls are close in storylines.) and Akiko spends more time in the hospital. Kanon will be an angst fest at this point imo. Shiori can die anytime after Spring as far as I'm concerned.


This definitely makes for good drama. Getting angsty over Shiori and what implications it means for Ayu and Akiko. Makes you wonder what the ratings will be next week.
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Old 2007-01-28, 13:35   Link #313
Devil Doll
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I honestly am afraid for Yuuichi right now as of Episode 17, in fact. Afraid that he'll fail to convince Shiori to want to live past the stroke of midnight, or something to that effect, as it were.
Whatever impact Yuuichi (and Ayu) could have made on Shiori he made during their very first meeting already; remember Shiori went home laughing so hard that she cried in the end. (When exactly did the scene with the cutter take place in the game?)
Shiori doesn't need Yuuichi to survive - she needs Yuuichi to die happly (which Kaori is absolutely right about, by the way). If Shiori were to survive then she's need someone to live for - a big sister for example, as (again) Yuuichi isn't likely to commit himself to her for his whole life (given two more arcs are to be played in the game and the last surviving girl wins ).
And Yuuichi knows this by now. The girl he has to convince is Kaori, not Shiori. His reference about his date with Shiori being the girl's second best memory was quite appropriate.

I wonder in how far Ayu can become an active player in the Shiori arc. This would be the most interesting aspect of the next two episodes for me.

By the way, where in the game was the birthday party used (as 2k2 and 2k6 put it into different arcs)?
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Old 2007-01-28, 14:50   Link #314
orion
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Now that I think about it...

Spoiler:


------

I couldn't find it in the game CGs online. Maybe it's a TV series only phenom. Those with the game could definitely answer with certainty.
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Last edited by orion; 2007-01-28 at 15:32.
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Old 2007-01-28, 18:52   Link #315
Boukenxha
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I actually spent some time today, going through the last part of Ayu's arc for both the 2k2 anime and the game again. I'm embarrassed to say that my memories are apparently jumbled up with god knows what other versions of Kanon exist in my head. So it seems that in both medium, there was indeed good closure and Yuuichi took to Ayu's departure not too badly, which means that he is a much stronger guy than I had imagined. I offer my apologies, if I misled anyone.

If anyone is interested, I can try to offer mediation since a reference of both is fresh in my mind (this time).


Spoiler for game spoilers vs 2k2 spoilers:
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Old 2007-01-28, 22:07   Link #316
orion
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But...

Spoiler:
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Old 2007-01-29, 06:03   Link #317
npal
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Yeah but apparently the game thinks otherwise And from the looks of it, Nayuki isn't even remotely a part of Ayu's arc, so mixing it up might yield the same Toei result. If you ask me, they have a better chance going with Nayuki, since Ayu is already involved in Nayuki's arc.

And that explains why the Toei ending felt so cheap. There weren't enough wishes to do everything, yet they did because they tried just that, using part of Nayuki's arc while going for Ayu's ending. And using Ayu's path intact is out of the question cause then you have successfully demoted Nayuki to secondary character in the whole Kanon, since she hasn't done nothing other than give some minor advice here and there and provided some comic relief.
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Old 2007-01-29, 09:30   Link #318
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In Shiori's story from the original game, one of the scene involves taking her to Nayuki's favourite sundae cafe. And by coincidence, Nayuki and Kaori came to the same cafe as well.

Kaori wanted to get out the moment she realized her sister and Yuuichi were inside, but couldn't convince Nayuki to go elsewhere, since Nayuki knows nothing about Shiori. At the same time, Shiori feels very awkward, not knowing whether to call out to her estranged sister. As Yuuichi, you have two choices: 1. pretend you didn't see them or 2. call them over.

By calling them over, Yuuichi is using Nayuki as the catalyst to "forcefully" have the Misaka sisters reconcile (Yuuichi skillfully doesn't tell Nayuki about them being sisters), or at least put them in a position where they can't be quickly separated. As Nayuki would be the one most of the talking as she asks about Shiori, eventually Kaori softens up after a stiff while and finally recognizes her sister once again.

Regardless of whether Shiori lives or not, maybe Kyo-Ani can adapt part of that scene concerning Nayuki's role into the more of less original birthday party scene, thus allowing for a seamless transition from Shiori's story into Nayuki's story, which has been largely neglected for some time now.
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Old 2007-01-29, 09:38   Link #319
Skane
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Well... the irony here is that it is exactly because Nayuki's arc is about Yuuichi's neglect of her that we have seen Yuuichi utterly neglecting her. First-timers won't know about her central theme yet, and so they get the impression that KyoAni is leaving Nayuki out cold when it could be rightfully said that KyoAni is treating Nayuki correctly.

Nayuki already has the 2nd-highest screentime in Kanon(2006), so I don't think KyoAni hates her or anything. It would just seem weird if Yuuichi starts treating Nayuki nicer before Nayuki spills everything onto Yuuichi.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-01-29, 09:43   Link #320
Kinny Riddle
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Well... the irony here is that it is exactly because Nayuki's arc is about Yuuichi's neglect of her that we have seen Yuuichi utterly neglecting her. First-timers won't know about her central theme yet, and so they get the impression that KyoAni is leaving Nayuki out cold when it could be rightfully said that KyoAni is treating Nayuki correctly.

Nayuki already has the 2nd-highest screentime in Kanon(2006), so I don't think KyoAni hates her or anything. It would just seem weird if Yuuichi starts treating Nayuki nicer before Nayuki spills everything onto Yuuichi.

Cheers.
Well, in that Shiori scene, Yuuichi pretty much took Nayuki for granted anyway. So maybe it could be from there that Yuuichi, while thanking Nayuki for helping him out, may begin to notice her slowly. I think I'll go ballistic if they turn Nayuki into another Kaede.
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