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Old 2007-01-29, 09:52   Link #321
Skane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle View Post
Well, in that Shiori scene, Yuuichi pretty much took Nayuki for granted anyway. So maybe it could be from there that Yuuichi, while thanking Nayuki for helping him out, may begin to notice her slowly. I think I'll go ballistic if they turn Nayuki into another Kaede.
In which sense?

1) Animation studio pisses all over Kaede's character development.

or

2) Animation studio turns Kaede into a boxcutter-wielding lunatic.

I would be disappointed with 1), but delighted with 2).

Hehe.
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Old 2007-01-29, 09:54   Link #322
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle View Post
Well, in that Shiori scene, Yuuichi pretty much took Nayuki for granted anyway. So maybe it could be from there that Yuuichi, while thanking Nayuki for helping him out, may begin to notice her slowly. I think I'll go ballistic if they turn Nayuki into another Kaede.
You're making a newbie mistake here, Kinny. The Shuffle! game was first released in 2004:

Shuffle! Wikipedia Entry

while the Kanon game was first released in 1999:

Kanon Wikipedia Entry


Now you tell me, Kinny. Who's based on whom, again?

In a sense, Kaede is "Nayuki Extreme", if you get what I mean. Which means that yes.....we're going to get almost the same sense of neglect with Nayuki as we did with Kaede.
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Old 2007-01-29, 10:09   Link #323
Skane
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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
You're making a newbie mistake here, Kinny. The Shuffle! game was first released in 2004:

Shuffle! Wikipedia Entry

while the Kanon game was first released in 1999:

Kanon Wikipedia Entry


Now you tell me, Kinny. Who's based on whom, again?

In a sense, Kaede is "Nayuki Extreme", if you get what I mean. Which means that yes.....we're going to get almost the same sense of neglect with Nayuki as we did with Kaede.
Ah... actually, anime-Kaede is not game-Kaede. The treatment that Asread gave to Kaede in the anime was very explosive. There is a reason why fans reacted to 'psycho-Kaede' so much.

Besides, I believe Kinny Riddle is referring to AStudio treatment here, and not source material, due to the context of his post.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-01-29, 10:51   Link #324
Meophist
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I'm still in the middle of watching Shuffle!…(and have been for quite some time).

In any case, I'm pretty sure they're not going to make Nayuki go ballistic or anything.
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Old 2007-01-29, 11:28   Link #325
Kinny Riddle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
You're making a newbie mistake here, Kinny. The Shuffle! game was first released in 2004:

Shuffle! Wikipedia Entry

while the Kanon game was first released in 1999:

Kanon Wikipedia Entry


Now you tell me, Kinny. Who's based on whom, again?

In a sense, Kaede is "Nayuki Extreme", if you get what I mean. Which means that yes.....we're going to get almost the same sense of neglect with Nayuki as we did with Kaede.
Of course I bloody know Kanon pre-dates SHUFFLE! And who you calling a newbie? Want to see who has more bishoujo games in the shelf? Huh? (Actually I don't have a lot to brag about, but at least I can boast that I understand 75% of what's being written, while the rest of you have to make do with translations and word of mouth. ) Without sounding rude, I politely request you take back that "newbie" comment, for I feel rather indignant about it.

Anyway, thanks to Skane for elaborating. Like he said, I was talking about the anime adaptation, not the source material. What I meant was I would go ballistic if Kyo-Ani did a Kaede to Nayuki, not KEY.
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Old 2007-01-29, 12:45   Link #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
You know. This makes me kind of upset. Since it indicates you either didn't read my earlier posts on the matter in this thread( the serious discussion ones, not the light-hearted ones), or forgot about what I wrote.
This is a few days late as I've been away, but for the record, I both read and understood your previously-posted comments; my comment was actually made in light of all that. Perhaps it is the original anime's flaw that the "forest scene" was overdone to the point where it gave the illusion of finality. My point was that finality was not intended in the greater scheme of the story, given that the actual symbolism was that of a dream. The subsequent scene was as important as the forest scene, but if the 2002 anime gave the "tacked on" feel you described, then that is its flaw. Having Ayu wake from the dream and be reunited with Yuuichi was what was supposed to be accomplished, and I can't imagine them doing it any other way here. How they get there, of course, is another story.

Essentially, your argument is that with the way the played the forest scene, it provides enough finality that having her awaken feels cheap, tacked-on, and anti-climactic. My point was that having her awaken should actually be more important than any sense of finality in that scene, which is why I don't believe she can die (the "worst case" would be that she and Yuuichi wouldn't be reunited). So, if this adaptation can achieve the proper balance between the realization in the forest and the subsequent awakening and reuniting, it may address your criticism. So I actually think we were driving at the same point, just in very different ways.

Anyway, sorry for my late response.
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Old 2007-01-30, 02:07   Link #327
Richard 23
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Kinny Riddle is not a newbie and panzerfan deserves a cookie.
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Old 2007-01-30, 08:35   Link #328
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
Whatever impact Yuuichi (and Ayu) could have made on Shiori he made during their very first meeting already; remember Shiori went home laughing so hard that she cried in the end. (When exactly did the scene with the cutter take place in the game?)
Shiori doesn't need Yuuichi to survive - she needs Yuuichi to die happly (which Kaori is absolutely right about, by the way). If Shiori were to survive then she's need someone to live for - a big sister for example, as (again) Yuuichi isn't likely to commit himself to her for his whole life (given two more arcs are to be played in the game and the last surviving girl wins ).
And Yuuichi knows this by now. The girl he has to convince is Kaori, not Shiori. His reference about his date with Shiori being the girl's second best memory was quite appropriate.
After thinking about it, I am inclined to disagree with your opening statement, DD. Because, if we put that in the context of the original game, it translates approximately to, "I met Shiori today when baka-Ayu hit a tree and piled snow on her.....if I take the Shiori arc at this point, it's smooth sailing all the way! I don't have to do anything, and Shiori will still be destined to get her good ending anyway.....because she's in LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT with me!!! Yeehaw!!!!"

Which is hardly what happens in the actual game, is it? The player as Yuuichi has to make the effort to make the right choices throughout his playthrough of the Shiori arc, or he gets the bad ending. On the same note, this Yuuichi in the KyoAni adaptation has his task cut out for him.

Did he have an impact when he and Ayu first met Shiori?

Definitely. On that day itself, Shiori was actually going to do herself in with the cutter, but it was Yuuichi's initial impact on her that stopped her cold in her tracks, and started waiting for Yuuichi at school in the coming days.

However, the real question is.....is it enough to convince Shiori not to pass away quietly into the night, believing herself satisfied when her deepest wishes were as yet unfulfilled?

No.

For one thing, DD, you misintepreted my previous post. I said I was afraid that Yuuichi would fail to convince Shiori to live past the stroke of midnight; that in no way meant that I was hoping against hope for Shiori to beat her disease altogether. I had already long since accepted that Shiori was most likely than not going to die sooner or later. What I was afraid of for Yuuichi, was that he would fail to do even that for her. I know you see a superhero in KyoAni's Yuuichi, DD, but as for me, I see someone who is only human, someone who definitely has the possibility of failure.

And what I'm saying is, in all of the arcs I've seen so far in KyoAni's Kanon, no other arc has struck me with the feeling that Yuuichi could possibly fail, more than Shiori's arc did. Why, you ask?

1) When Yuuichi asked Shiori why she doesn't try to reconnect with Kaori, her answer was it was the only thing left she could do for her sister. What does that mean? It means that Shiori has given up hope on the one thing that would make her happy, something Yuuichi knows all too well.

2) Because he knows this all too well, that is why he promised Shiori to relive "the ordinary days" with her, and spends his time with her for the next two days in school. But being a pretend onii-chan is no perfect substitute for the real thing, and again, this is something that Yuuichi only knows too well. Otherwise, he wouldn't have tried to convince Kaori to share tea with him and Shiori after school.

3) However, if he knows this all too well, how come he hasn't tried to convince Kaori first instead?

No, it's not like he hasn't tried. Apart from the above example, he's also tried to convince Kaori not to keep avoiding Shiori on the night when Kaori confessed that Shiori was her sister (Episode 17, time frame 01:25-01:27). However, he got brushed off that night when Kaori replied that Shiori smiles when she's with him (Episode 17, time frame 01:30-01:33), and again afterwards when Kaori brushes off his invitation to tea with him and Shiori (Episode 17, time frame 19:05-19:10), by repeating her lie that she doesn't know Shiori, and told him to get out of her way (Episode 17, time frame 19:11-19:15).

What does that tell me? It tells me that Yuuichi isn't perfect, that he can't get everything his own way with a snap of his fingers. He can't even get past Kaori's stone wall on his own (and the women say stonewalling is one of men's most annoying of exclusive traits ). Which is why, by the next episode, he'll definitely be needing the help of Nayuki and/or Jun to finally turn Kaori's head around. But KyoAni has competently portrayed Kaori as a stubborn, intractable woman; that alone has made me uncertain as to whether he can successfully change his mind even with both Nayuki and Jun's help. And if he can't do that.....he would have seriously let Shiori down, and he knows it.

And even if he manages this feat, the next question is....would it be too little, too late? Once again, props to KyoAni; I know the basics of Shiori's storyline, but they could make me worry. That can only be put down to competent storyboarding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
2k2 isn't all about miracles; I guess it's more about sacrifices, and some of them even turning out bad decisions:
  • Makoto sacrificed her life to see Yuuichi again (we don't know whether it was worth the price, only Makoto could tell us);
  • Mai sacrificed her happiness of living as a normal girl (note that 2k2 hasn't her "power" backstory in all that detail!) to treasure her memories (and thus didn't understand that Sayuri is her future; fortunately Mai's error was corrected by Sayuri);
  • Kaori sacrificed her happiness with Shiori because she was afraid of the consequences (again, wrong decision - once Kaori overcame her selfishness she revived Shiori's will to live, thus causing Shiori's miracle to happen); and finally,
  • Nayuki sacrifices her affection for Yuuichi by guiding him to comatose Ayu in the hospital (best decision of all, making Nayuki the hero of 2k2, her kiss was well earned).

I've read in this thread that the Toei version were "all happy" - which I'd strongly object to. Let's have a look at the story development so far, and try to translate both 2k2 and 2k6 back into a game:
  • Makoto arc: In 2k6, Yuuichi "won" this arc as he was able to fulfill Makoto's final wish to marry her. In 2k2, Yuuichi "lost" this arc as Makoto dissolved before Yuuichi reached the hill, and Yuuichi cried bitterly about Makoto leaving him too soon.
  • Mai arc: In 2k6, Yuuichi "won" this arc by making Hope heal Mai due to him renewing his promise to her. In 2k2, Yuuichi "lost" this arc because even after he revealed his identity to Mai she still tried to commit suicide. The winner of the 2k2 Mai arc was Sayuri, not Yuuichi.
So Yuuichi "lost" both arcs in 2k2 while he "won" both arcs in 2k6! No wonder he's so depressed by now: Shiori's fate looks like his first defeat in 2k6 (note how Yuuichi himself states this at the start of episode 17: He was able to fix both Makoto's and Mai's problems but has no clue how to heal Shiori; he is about to get the right idea of healing Kaori first but had little success there so far) while it became his first success in 2k2 (well, actually more like Nayuki's success because it was her who convinced Kaori to speak her mind despite Yuuichi working so hard for making Kaori reconsider).
As for the forthcoming arcs: Yuuichi kind of "won" Ayu's arc in 2k2 by finding the doll but again it was Nayuki who "rallied the troops" and made Yuuichi actually give it a try, and it was Kitagawa who found the doll (the one least enthusiastic to help Yuuichi, nice touch). And Yuuichi certainly lost the Nayuki arc in 2k2, being unable to do anything to comfort his cousin or even answer her feelings for him. In 2k2 Yuuichi ended up winning not a single arc without significant help by the girls around him.

On another note, DD, I've also taken a few days to ruminate upon your observation that 2k6 Yuuichi is a "superhero" compared to his 2k2 version. To be honest, I was wondering whether I can sympathize with that sentiment, and I had to take that time to get my thoughts in order. But now I have, and my thoughts on that?

Once again, I disagree with that view. I do not believe that 2k6 Yuuichi is a superhero, a miracle-maker. I can convincingly see him as a regular guy just trying his best to make things right, and I don't even believe he's succeeded 100% so far. And I believe, DD, that you hold these sentiments about him....because you're comparing him unfairly with his 2k2 version using your hindsight.

Think about it. You think 2k6 Yuuichi is a superhero because he's done a whole lot better so far than his predecessor did. But you're being unfair to him, because as a character, 2k6 Yuuichi doesn't have the luxury of possessing the same hindsight as you and numerous other 2k2-viewers. You can't blame him for not knowing of the "alternate Kanonverse" of Toei, much less the differences between that Kanonverse and his own KyoAni Kanonverse.

- All he knows about himself is that he's a fairly average guy; it's not his fault he doesn't know how manly he is, when compared to his pathetic Jay Leno-chinned namesake he knows nothing of, who couldn't even take a piss without Nayuki being there to comment on his abysmal excuse for a symbol of manhood.

- Makoto Arc: It's also not 2k6 Yuuichi's fault that he doesn't know how well he did compared to his predecessor, who didn't even make it to the hill before Makoto kicked it on him. As far as he knew, the way he lost Makoto was painful and real enough; there was no way for him to save her, and all he could do was a mock wedding in which he was even questioning himself as to whether he had fulfilled Makoto's wish. He was only a regular guy who was helpless to save someone important to him, and to him, it was a real blow. Certainly, he wouldn't be thinking about how he "won" the "arc"; he knows nothing of that, and he certainly has no idea he could do any worse. That's hardly superhero material to me.

- Mai Arc: Your comparison of 2k2 and 2k6, I'm sorry to say, doesn't even make sense here. You said 2k2 Yuuichi "lost" this arc because Mai still tried to commit suicide after he revealed his identity to her; the thing is, isn't it exactly the same thing in 2k6? And 2k6 Yuuichi didn't "make" Hope heal Mai either; if anything, it can be said to be Mai's own doing. In any case, 2k6 Yuuichi certainly also knows nothing of how well he did compared to his predecessor; as far as he's concerned, he's still failed to keep Mai from attempting suicide, and it is by a miracle alone that things didn't get any worse. Again, if he's a superhero and a miracle-maker, would he even have allowed anything like this to happen? He certainly won't be thinking about how much better he did than his predecessor, if he doesn't know about it in the first place.

Therefore, my conclusion is that 2k6 Yuuichi is in no way a superhero; he only seems that way because his predecessor was just pathetic. So here's a suggestion; try to view Kanon 2k6 without keeping your prior experience with 2k2 in mind. If you do that, it might well be easier to view 2k6 Yuuichi as a normal human being trying his darndest, rather than a superhero.

In fact, try to watch Kanon like you're doing so for the first time, and know nothing of the story beforehand; a change in perspective might do you good in your viewing pleasure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle View Post
Of course I bloody know Kanon pre-dates SHUFFLE! And who you calling a newbie? Want to see who has more bishoujo games in the shelf? Huh? (Actually I don't have a lot to brag about, but at least I can boast that I understand 75% of what's being written, while the rest of you have to make do with translations and word of mouth. ) Without sounding rude, I politely request you take back that "newbie" comment, for I feel rather indignant about it.

Anyway, thanks to Skane for elaborating. Like he said, I was talking about the anime adaptation, not the source material. What I meant was I would go ballistic if Kyo-Ani did a Kaede to Nayuki, not KEY.
*takes it back*

My apologies, Kinny.

Moral of the story: Never post in a forum when you're half-dead from insufficient sleep.
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Old 2007-01-30, 16:27   Link #329
Devil Doll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
After thinking about it, I am inclined to disagree with your opening statement, DD. Because, if we put that in the context of the original game, it translates approximately to, "I met Shiori today when baka-Ayu hit a tree and piled snow on her.....if I take the Shiori arc at this point, it's smooth sailing all the way! I don't have to do anything, and Shiori will still be destined to get her good ending anyway.....because she's in LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT with me!!! Yeehaw!!!!"
You completely misunderstood my posting. I never said that Shiori was saved already (on the contrary I am hoping she will die now). And why do you unfairly invent rubbish like Shiori falling in love with Yuuichi? You're about to lose your reputation as reasonable discussion participant.
What Yuuichi (and Ayu) gave Shiori isn't love, it's the experience that life can be great, enjoyable, funny - something that Kaori denied to Shiori (just like Sayuri denied it to her brother, and we all know the consequences). End of Yuuichi's impact on Shiori - everything beyond this scene can only make Shiori die less painfully.
Therefore I said that Yuuichi can't make any more impact on Shiori because Shiori surviving depends on Kaori changing her mind. Yuuichi still has a lot of work to do, but it isn't work with Shiori, it's work with Kaori. Actually it won't even matter to Shiori who will make Kaori reconsider (remember that in 2k2 it wasn't the I-can-fix-everything-Yuuichi).
Think about this: If Yuuichi could still have any additional impact on Shiori at this stage then Kaori would be redundant for the whole arc! We wouldn't need her in this story, she would have been as irrelevant as the name of Shiori's illness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
You think 2k6 Yuuichi is a superhero because he's done a whole lot better so far than his predecessor did. But you're being unfair to him, because as a character, 2k6 Yuuichi doesn't have the luxury of possessing the same hindsight as you and numerous other 2k2-viewers. You can't blame him for not knowing of the "alternate Kanonverse" of Toei, much less the differences between that Kanonverse and his own KyoAni Kanonverse.
I'm not blaming Yuuichi for not knowing the 2k2 universe. I'm praising Toei for making Sayuri and Nayuki relevant for the story development by not letting Yuuichi solve each and every problem by himself (and even promising things he can't possibly deliver later, such as staying at Mai's side). This is exactly what I like 2k2 for - providing influential characters other than the player himself.
Yuuichi fixing everything is predictable and boring in an anime (while the same can be thrilling in a game where the player can make mistakes!); ever new characters developing and growing into crucial roles in 2k2 was a lot more exciting for me. (Consequently, Nayuki and Sayuri were my favourite characters in 2k2 because they were able to surprise me in a plausible way. I like Mishio in 2k6 for the same reason, her story works better in 2k6 than in 2k2, and the same goes for Makoto even though I still don't like her.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
Mai Arc: Your comparison of 2k2 and 2k6, I'm sorry to say, doesn't even make sense here. You said 2k2 Yuuichi "lost" this arc because Mai still tried to commit suicide after he revealed his identity to her; the thing is, isn't it exactly the same thing in 2k6?
Not at all, because Yuuichi's influence in the 2k6 arc ends after repeating his promise to Hope, a promise he never even broke (it was just Mai's misconception that put her into this mess). So in 2k6 Yuuichi saved Mai after her suicide (thus indirectly raising her from the dead even though it was Mai's own power that made her wound close) by doing nothing in particular, which I consider a horrible resolution of this story arc.
In 2k2 Yuuichi's influence ended before Mai's suicide, he failed to save Mai despite doing the best he could, thus allowing Sayuri to pay back her debt to Mai - which I consider a much better solution of this arc given Yuuichi has other girls to take care of.
The game solution only works in the game (whose goal is to make the player a hero) but not in an anime where all five arcs are to be shown, and Toei understood this. Consequently Toei removed Mai's healer ability that would ruin the other arcs, and upgraded certain side characters as to make the story less repetitive.

The main difference between 2k2 and 2k6 is that in 2k6 (for game compatibility's sake) Yuuichi must be the one to save each and every girl because he's the player of this game (regardless of how implausible the solution might look in the combination of all five arcs) while in 2k2 Toei tried to choose the most appropriate character to save the girl in question, which is Sayuri for Mai and Nayuki for Kaori (if Kaori is able to speak her mind to a stranger like Yuuichi but not to her best friend Nayuki then she's indeed a weird girl, and if Nayuki doesn't sense that Kaori has a serious problem how much of a best friend is she?).
We can argue about Nayuki being the best possible solution for the Ayu arc. I like the idea of Akiko playing this role as well, especially because Ayu earned brownie points by supporting Akiko already. In this aspect Toei decided to go the "love competition" path which is not necessarily better but just different - it depends on how much you like Nayuki's sacrifice (which I do), and I can absolutely understand that those who think game compatibility to be more important than anything else must have been angry about the 2k2 ending.
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Old 2007-01-31, 08:25   Link #330
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
You completely misunderstood my posting. I never said that Shiori was saved already (on the contrary I am hoping she will die now). And why do you unfairly invent rubbish like Shiori falling in love with Yuuichi? You're about to lose your reputation as reasonable discussion participant.
Let's get some things straight.

Perhaps you're not used to my style of over-exaggeration I sometimes make use of when the silly mood hits me. Fair enough, I was already expecting someone to misunderstand me at some point or other because of my occasional usage of hyperbole, and get pissed at me as a result. But if that is so, tell it to me straight, because if you haven't noticed already, I do not appreciate being told stuff like "losing reputation as a reasonable discussion participant". I consider that as flamebait, and I do not appreciate being baited; as it is, you're lucky my head is in a pretty cool state today. I have been pretty civil to you so far because you make good points and back them up with substance.....but if you keep giving me that kind of pissy attitude, I WILL get on your case.

But for now, I'm going to let it slide and continue being civil to you from here on in the light of the high probability that this is a misunderstanding on both our parts. Back to the discussion.

I'll start by addressing the point you made about me "unfairly inventing rubbish" about Shiori falling in love with Yuuichi. First off, that was just another example of my occasional use of hyperbole; get used to it, because as far as I know, everybody else does. However, I'll also have you note that I wasn't exactly coming up with my own inventions; I was giving my example in the context of the game, and in the game, there IS an element of romance between Shiori and Yuuichi if you take the Shiori arc, as far as I know. It just so happens that KyoAni's adaptation omitted that element and replaced it with an equally-suitable "onii-chan" element instead; taking into account the possibility that you may not be familiar with the game material, I'll accept the possibility that it was a misunderstanding. I'll just have you note that I wasn't "unfairly inventing rubbish" this time around....and even if I was in the past, or will do so in the future, it should just be taken rightfully as an attempt on my part to lighten the mood before plunging into the serious stuff.

And on the next point that I misunderstood your posting. When I read your original post, I saw,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
Whatever impact Yuuichi (and Ayu) could have made on Shiori he made during their very first meeting already; remember Shiori went home laughing so hard that she cried in the end. (When exactly did the scene with the cutter take place in the game?)
And when I saw that, I thought, "So what DD is trying to say is, the first meeting between Yuuichi and Shiori was the ONLY event that had any impact, and everything else that happened afterwards in Shiori's arc was meaningless? That can't be right."

I'll like you to look at your own post again, and review your methodology of your opinion-giving. Can you really blame me for misunderstanding that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
What Yuuichi (and Ayu) gave Shiori isn't love, it's the experience that life can be great, enjoyable, funny - something that Kaori denied to Shiori (just like Sayuri denied it to her brother, and we all know the consequences). End of Yuuichi's impact on Shiori - everything beyond this scene can only make Shiori die less painfully.
Therefore I said that Yuuichi can't make any more impact on Shiori because Shiori surviving depends on Kaori changing her mind. Yuuichi still has a lot of work to do, but it isn't work with Shiori, it's work with Kaori. Actually it won't even matter to Shiori who will make Kaori reconsider (remember that in 2k2 it wasn't the I-can-fix-everything-Yuuichi).
Think about this: If Yuuichi could still have any additional impact on Shiori at this stage then Kaori would be redundant for the whole arc! We wouldn't need her in this story, she would have been as irrelevant as the name of Shiori's illness.
NOW, if this had been your original post earlier, I would have understood fully, and I would have agreed. Granted, it may well be equally my fault for being slow-witted for the past couple of days (I wasn't feeling too well then ), so as far as I'm concerned, you gave your opinion, I misunderstood it and went off tangent, and you made your point to me a bit clearer, and I saw your point finally. Therefore, end of discussion on this part. Concur?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
I'm not blaming Yuuichi for not knowing the 2k2 universe. I'm praising Toei for making Sayuri and Nayuki relevant for the story development by not letting Yuuichi solve each and every problem by himself (and even promising things he can't possibly deliver later, such as staying at Mai's side). This is exactly what I like 2k2 for - providing influential characters other than the player himself.
Yuuichi fixing everything is predictable and boring in an anime (while the same can be thrilling in a game where the player can make mistakes!); ever new characters developing and growing into crucial roles in 2k2 was a lot more exciting for me. (Consequently, Nayuki and Sayuri were my favourite characters in 2k2 because they were able to surprise me in a plausible way. I like Mishio in 2k6 for the same reason, her story works better in 2k6 than in 2k2, and the same goes for Makoto even though I still don't like her.)
My point is, 2k6 Yuuichi isnot a superhero, and not even in the game was he anywhere close. In Makoto's arc, he actually required more help and advice from Mishio, and he required Mai's foresight too, to fully understand the situation before attempting to fix it; in fact, he was resisting the idea at first, too. Compare that with Toei's Yuuichi, who accepted Mishio's dubious testimony far too easily, and in his handling of Makoto's final days, barely allowed Mishio to speak a few words to her as opposed to KyoAni's Yuuichi letting Mishio meet Makoto twice, and with a lot more interaction to boot.

The end result of both approaches? Both versions of Yuuichi ended up facing the same inevitability of Makoto's impending demise all the same, and neither of them could "fix" anything. If KyoAni's Yuuichi somehow miraculously brought Makoto back from the dead, I'll concede your criticism of him as a superhero....but what did he actually do better than Toei's Yuuichi? At most, he managed to get her on top of the hill and do the wedding scene; and that's only because he's had more help from Mishio, who told him to grant Makoto's deepest wishes and set him on the path to thinking of that idea, than Toei's Yuuichi, whose Mishio didn't tell him anything of that sort. Not less. And that's not even factoring in Mai's additional assistance to KyoAni's Yuuichi.

Can you said KyoAni Yuuichi managed to "fix" Makoto's arc where Toei Yuuichi failed? I wouldn't say that because he didn't work a miracle to save Makoto. But I understand you might say that because he did manage to grant Makoto's final wish in a sense.....still, can you really still claim that he's managed to do it by himself, and thus is a "fix-it-all-by-himself" superhero as a result? Begging my pardon, but I really don't see how you can continue to defend that stand.

And, that's not even bringing in the point that all KyoAni Yuuichi could achieve in the end was a mock wedding.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
Not at all, because Yuuichi's influence in the 2k6 arc ends after repeating his promise to Hope, a promise he never even broke (it was just Mai's misconception that put her into this mess). So in 2k6 Yuuichi saved Mai after her suicide (thus indirectly raising her from the dead even though it was Mai's own power that made her wound close) by doing nothing in particular, which I consider a horrible resolution of this story arc.
In 2k2 Yuuichi's influence ended before Mai's suicide, he failed to save Mai despite doing the best he could, thus allowing Sayuri to pay back her debt to Mai - which I consider a much better solution of this arc given Yuuichi has other girls to take care of.
The game solution only works in the game (whose goal is to make the player a hero) but not in an anime where all five arcs are to be shown, and Toei understood this. Consequently Toei removed Mai's healer ability that would ruin the other arcs, and upgraded certain side characters as to make the story less repetitive.
Give me a couple more days to think about this and formulate a response. I've spent a great deal of my energy on the explanation of the Makoto arc, already......on the other hand, you might want to get the opinions of others as well, especially Skane, whose knowledge of the Mai arc is probably unparallelled.

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Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
The main difference between 2k2 and 2k6 is that in 2k6 (for game compatibility's sake) Yuuichi must be the one to save each and every girl because he's the player of this game (regardless of how implausible the solution might look in the combination of all five arcs) while in 2k2 Toei tried to choose the most appropriate character to save the girl in question, which is Sayuri for Mai and Nayuki for Kaori.
The part about KyoAni Yuuichi needing to be the one to dominate all the arcs, that much I can understand and, to a certain extent, agree with. It's the labelling of him as a "superhero" which, in the end, I cannot concur with. Reasons as given in the Makoto arc; he achieved as much only because he had a great deal of support from other characters, and I suspect much the same or something similar to that with the Mai arc as well, although I'm far too spent to make my thoughts sound coherent at the moment.
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Old 2007-01-31, 23:59   Link #331
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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
The part about KyoAni Yuuichi needing to be the one to dominate all the arcs, that much I can understand and, to a certain extent, agree with. It's the labelling of him as a "superhero" which, in the end, I cannot concur with. Reasons as given in the Makoto arc; he achieved as much only because he had a great deal of support from other characters, and I suspect much the same or something similar to that with the Mai arc as well, although I'm far too spent to make my thoughts sound coherent at the moment.
Perhaps the "superhero" is exaggerating from my side.

But look: Yuuichi is dealing with senpais like Sayuri and Mai as if they were his younger sisters. At this age girls are supposed to be about one year ahead in respect to maturity, so Yuuichi being one year younger than these two should make him appear less mature - which he is in 2k2.

In 2k6 Yuuichi is acting like two, if not three years older than he should - can we agree on this?
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Old 2007-02-01, 00:42   Link #332
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I'll stumble through and say that *is* one minor issue with this version of Kanon... Yuuichi behaves more maturely than one might expect at that age (but he is an unusual character -- stories aren't made about boring people usually).
However, it does seem a *little* off that the two senpai cozied up to him so easily and let him treat them like little sisters. The former is probably because Yuuichi isn't part of the school emotional baggage -- new friend, no history (since we know that M&S are somewhat isolated because of Mai's behavior and Sayuri's refusal to "play the game"). The "little sisters" part has to be taken as just these three *particular* individuals and how they play on each other rather than any sweeping generalization of how students act.

So I guess I'm saying I see what devil doll is pointing at (in relation to Yuuichi's behavior) ... but this is an unusual story about unusual individuals. And from what I know about the game, the 2k6-Yuuichi does reflect the game-Yuuichi more closely than the 2k2-Yuuichi.
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Old 2007-02-01, 03:46   Link #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
Perhaps the "superhero" is exaggerating from my side.

But look: Yuuichi is dealing with senpais like Sayuri and Mai as if they were his younger sisters. At this age girls are supposed to be about one year ahead in respect to maturity, so Yuuichi being one year younger than these two should make him appear less mature - which he is in 2k2.

In 2k6 Yuuichi is acting like two, if not three years older than he should - can we agree on this?
So you're saying you perfer a stereotypical theme? Where a lower classmate in every other school-drama shows suppose to act inferior to their seniors? I'm glad KyoAni didn't follow what the other shows does for under-classmate roles.

The age of maturity varies for everybody. Heck, if you even compare his maturity level to Akiko's, he seems more or less as matured as her. Even if he acts two or more years older than he should be, what are you basing this off on and for what reasons? Is there an age maturity chart somewhere that people must only be acting like so at certain age? Remember, we don't know exactly what Yuuichi went thru those previous 7years. Whatever happened past those 7yrs ago, clearly strenghten and made him how he acts like now in the present. We have a lot of characters in Kanon that act under their age. In real life, I know a lot of girls that don't even act their age. So what's your point? What's your problem with Yuuichi 2k6? He's acting/being too good for you?

I'd read your post and don't even see your point going on with this. It's so meaningless, just like my post!
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Old 2007-02-01, 05:22   Link #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
Perhaps the "superhero" is exaggerating from my side.

But look: Yuuichi is dealing with senpais like Sayuri and Mai as if they were his younger sisters. At this age girls are supposed to be about one year ahead in respect to maturity, so Yuuichi being one year younger than these two should make him appear less mature - which he is in 2k2.

In 2k6 Yuuichi is acting like two, if not three years older than he should - can we agree on this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'll stumble through and say that *is* one minor issue with this version of Kanon... Yuuichi behaves more maturely than one might expect at that age (but he is an unusual character -- stories aren't made about boring people usually).
However, it does seem a *little* off that the two senpai cozied up to him so easily and let him treat them like little sisters. The former is probably because Yuuichi isn't part of the school emotional baggage -- new friend, no history (since we know that M&S are somewhat isolated because of Mai's behavior and Sayuri's refusal to "play the game"). The "little sisters" part has to be taken as just these three *particular* individuals and how they play on each other rather than any sweeping generalization of how students act.

So I guess I'm saying I see what devil doll is pointing at (in relation to Yuuichi's behavior) ... but this is an unusual story about unusual individuals. And from what I know about the game, the 2k6-Yuuichi does reflect the game-Yuuichi more closely than the 2k2-Yuuichi.
Woah, woah, woah. Hang on a second there. How did the impression of Yuuichi treating them as little sisters come about? Was there a hidden scene of Mai mumbling onii-chan I missed out here?

If a girl is older than you by a year( just a year! Not even two!), does that automatically mean you cannot render them assistance? Yuuichi befriended Mai and Sayuri, and friendship knows no bounds.

Additionally... what has real age has to do with maturity? I have many cousins, and some of my younger cousins are much more mature than some of the elder ones. Heck, I'm pretty dang sure you can reflect upon your own relatives and recall a couple of young'uns who were more mature than their elders.

You can't pigeonhole maturity to an age bracket. It varies from individual to individual.

I'm really curious to know what were the reasons for stating a relation of 'big brother-little sisters'.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-02-01, 09:55   Link #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
Perhaps the "superhero" is exaggerating from my side.

But look: Yuuichi is dealing with senpais like Sayuri and Mai as if they were his younger sisters. At this age girls are supposed to be about one year ahead in respect to maturity, so Yuuichi being one year younger than these two should make him appear less mature - which he is in 2k2.

In 2k6 Yuuichi is acting like two, if not three years older than he should - can we agree on this?
I'll argue that point, but....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raniie View Post
So you're saying you perfer a stereotypical theme? Where a lower classmate in every other school-drama shows suppose to act inferior to their seniors? I'm glad KyoAni didn't follow what the other shows does for under-classmate roles.

The age of maturity varies for everybody. Heck, if you even compare his maturity level to Akiko's, he seems more or less as matured as her. Even if he acts two or more years older than he should be, what are you basing this off on and for what reasons? Is there an age maturity chart somewhere that people must only be acting like so at certain age? Remember, we don't know exactly what Yuuichi went thru those previous 7years. Whatever happened past those 7yrs ago, clearly strenghten and made him how he acts like now in the present. We have a lot of characters in Kanon that act under their age. In real life, I know a lot of girls that don't even act their age. So what's your point? What's your problem with Yuuichi 2k6? He's acting/being too good for you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Woah, woah, woah. Hang on a second there. How did the impression of Yuuichi treating them as little sisters come about? Was there a hidden scene of Mai mumbling onii-chan I missed out here?

If a girl is older than you by a year( just a year! Not even two!), does that automatically mean you cannot render them assistance? Yuuichi befriended Mai and Sayuri, and friendship knows no bounds.

Additionally... what has real age has to do with maturity? I have many cousins, and some of my younger cousins are much more mature than some of the elder ones. Heck, I'm pretty dang sure you can reflect upon your own relatives and recall a couple of young'uns who were more mature than their elders.

You can't pigeonhole maturity to an age bracket. It varies from individual to individual.

I'm really curious to know what were the reasons for stating a relation of 'big brother-little sisters'.

Cheers.
....they've pretty much argued that point for me. Therefore I shall say no more on this, at least until you come up with your next point.

Skane, do you have anything to say on the Mai arc, the way I dissected the Makoto arc earlier? I really think you can do a better job with the Mai arc than I can, when it comes to debating with DD his views on it.
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Old 2007-02-01, 11:22   Link #336
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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
~ Skane, do you have anything to say on the Mai arc, the way I dissected the Makoto arc earlier? I really think you can do a better job with the Mai arc than I can, when it comes to debating with DD his views on it.
? Hmm?

Devil Doll is free to compare and contrast Toei's version of Kanon with KyoAni's. He hasn't really erroneously made any fubars. I mean, Mai's arc was a totally different beast in Toei's version( much more than the other four girls).

Devil Doll likes them apples, I like them strawberries. I'm more willing to debate about the aspects where it overlaps, rather than the non-canon aspects of it, because frankly speaking, there are mainly two ways of seeing Toei's version.

1) Ignore the game canon and analyse Toei's version as a standalone story. If we do this, then of course Sayuri is going to be the star here, and we can flesh out all the reasons on how it showcased the intimacy of her friendship with Mai.

The main nitpick then, is the unresolvement of that Usagi-Mai vision. I mean... they literally just flashed the barley field and Hope, never explained a damn thing about that, and *poof!* the viewer is left befuddled over what the heck was that all about?

Another issue is the total disappearance of Mai after her arc's was resolved until the Kanon Kazahana special. KyoAni didn't fare much better here, but at least she still has an existence in Kanon(2006) thus far.

2) Compare with the game canon. Okay... if we do this, then there is almost no point in discussing Toei's version of Mai's arc.
~~~~ ~~~~

The thing here is, I am watching K06 because I want to see the game-canon being animated. I like K02 as a standalone story, but not as a game-adaptation.

That said however, between the two versions of Mai's arc, it made a whole lot more sense in K06, and the internal consistency was better.

KyoAni's version of Mai's arc is not... complete, but it was still a damn good ride, and while it left out Sayuri's struggle with Kuze, it compensated by animating Sayuri's and Mai's background stories. Lose one, gain two.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-02-01, 12:39   Link #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Woah, woah, woah. Hang on a second there. How did the impression of Yuuichi treating them as little sisters come about? Was there a hidden scene of Mai mumbling onii-chan I missed out here?

If a girl is older than you by a year( just a year! Not even two!), does that automatically mean you cannot render them assistance? Yuuichi befriended Mai and Sayuri, and friendship knows no bounds.

Additionally... what has real age has to do with maturity? I have many cousins, and some of my younger cousins are much more mature than some of the elder ones. Heck, I'm pretty dang sure you can reflect upon your own relatives and recall a couple of young'uns who were more mature than their elders.

You can't pigeonhole maturity to an age bracket. It varies from individual to individual.

I'm really curious to know what were the reasons for stating a relation of 'big brother-little sisters'.

Cheers.
I think you just loudly agreed with me ... I said what we see is simply the case for *these* particular characters. Yuuichi is mature for his age and Mai/Sayuri look up to him as their friendship progresses.

There's a little bit of japanese retro-culture rumbling around here as well, where girls present themselves as more childlike than they are for social purposes. Nothing wrong with the story per se and I was just pointing out that "yes, Yuuichi is mature for his age".

Pertaining to the Mai comments, I also am waiting for the "rest of the Mai arc" to unfold ... I don't think its done yet (though it may get covered in the last ep or two). I feel like Mai was the closest we've seen so far to a "romantic entanglement" Yuuichi but Shiori may be about to move into that assignment. Not that I'm expecting any entanglements, but there's a nice tension building -- I mean, good lord, he's surrounded by gorgeous women with spectacular issues
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Old 2007-02-01, 21:03   Link #338
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I think you just loudly agreed with me ... I said what we see is simply the case for *these* particular characters. Yuuichi is mature for his age and Mai/Sayuri look up to him as their friendship progresses.

There's a little bit of japanese retro-culture rumbling around here as well, where girls present themselves as more childlike than they are for social purposes. Nothing wrong with the story per se and I was just pointing out that "yes, Yuuichi is mature for his age". ~
I agree that Yuuichi is mature for his age, but I do not agree with the view that his relationship with Mai and Sayuri is that of a 'big brother-little sisters' one.

If we take the stereotypical view that the elder sibling needs to be the one that coddles the younger one, then this does not really apply to them as the coddling is done both ways.

Yuuichi may have had helped them a lot, but they have helped Yuuichi a lot too. They are treating each other as equals. There is no 'dominant' role here.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-02-01, 21:08   Link #339
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Ho ho... More lively discussion. Always good, always good. Though, I think it may be over until another point is raised for discussion.... Or should I give my two cents in.... Perhaps, perhaps....
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Old 2007-02-02, 09:46   Link #340
Devil Doll
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So what's your point? What's your problem with Yuuichi 2k6? He's acting/being too good for you?
Exactly. Yuuichi being able to solve all problems kills the surprise for me. That's the difference between the "drama" (apples) 2k2 and the "game" (strawberries) 2k6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Woah, woah, woah. Hang on a second there. How did the impression of Yuuichi treating them as little sisters come about? Was there a hidden scene of Mai mumbling onii-chan I missed out here?
What about the scene when Mai went berserk after they brought Sayuri to the hospital?
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