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Old 2007-02-02, 22:40   Link #361
Richard 23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
Exactly. Yuuichi being able to solve all problems kills the surprise for me. That's the difference between the "drama" (apples) 2k2 and the "game" (strawberries) 2k6.
Apples and strawberries? You lost me there.

Here I was thinking it was pears and bananas. *smacks self*
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Old 2007-02-02, 23:28   Link #362
Vexx
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I think the metaphors are about five seconds away from a glorious food fight.. problem is I much prefer seeing women covered in squashed fruit medleys....
;P
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Old 2007-02-03, 02:32   Link #363
Skane
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Well personally I don't think it is polite to stonewall and such. If one cannot reply to a query directly, just concede or admit that one does not have an answer. There is no need to be able to 'win' everything in a discussion. Heck, I conceded multiple times in this thread before. Dragging the issue and/or evading the questions will only serve to taint one's credibility over other points of contention where said one does have concrete arguments.

No one has bothered to answer the question of how one can perceive Yuuichi's relationship with Mai as a 'Big Brother-Little Sister' one, so I am going to take it that this argument has been rescinded.
~~~~ ~~~~

With that issue out of the way, I am going to give my take on Yuuichi's 'superhero' status.

Before I begin however, I would like to bring to attention two key phrases. Artistic License and Dramatic Effect.

Anime is filled with physics-defying situations. These... highly exaggerated scenes are usually done to really emphasise a point, bring comedy to a violent scene, or to simply just make a scene look pretty.

Yuuichi has been shown in scenes where he could make a facial imprint into a thrown metal bucket, had the ability to crush a fire extinguisher with a wooden sword, dead-drop from the 3rd-4th floor before crushing a metal fence with his spine and barrel-rolling onto the courtyard, etc...

One could point out that Kanon already has many supernatural elements, and that this alone can justify Yuuichi's feats. However, this is a rather weak argument since it balances precariously over the line of internal consistency.

The better reason is, it was done for dramatic effect. Kanon is a story, not a documentary. There will be a certain flair to the storytelling. Those scenes I mentioned earlier were not directly crucial to the main points of their relevant arc, but they served to bring that extra omph to their respective scenes.
~~~~ ~~~~

The next issue I wish to discuss about, is about the opinion that Yuuichi is single-handedly solving all the girls' problems.

I will be blunt.

This is flat-out WRONG.

Before I continue, some analogies. Many people view Lance Armstrong as THE best cyclist in the world, and he received many accolades with regards to his sporting achievements. However... Lance Armstrong did not get where he was on his own. Without his team supporting him, Lance Armstrong would have never achieved what he achieved, on his own.

The same applies to football. The strikers usually get all the glory because they are the ones who score the goals, but I would like to see a football team trying to win games without their goalkeepers and/or defenders.

Makoto's Arc:
---- ----
Where would Yuuichi be if he had never received the help from Mishio and Mai? Even Nayuki helped out a bit by playing with Makoto in her dying days, and Akiko was also a source of information.

Yuuichi didn't wave a magic wand and just magically knew what to do next, he needed the aid of several characters in order to resolve Makoto's issue.

How does this make him 'superheroish'? He did not single-handedly resolve Makoto's issue on his own. He requested the help of several people, and they obliged him.

Just because the final scene was focused solely on him and Makoto on Momomi Hill, it doesn't mean we should discard the rest of the events that led up to that finale.

Mai's Arc:
---- ----
Nayuki, Sayuri and Jun.

These were the secondary characters that helped Yuuichi in resolving Mai's arc. Due to the secretive nature of Yuuichi's meetings with Mai and the setting of having most of the scenes in school at night, the contact with the rest of the girls was kept to a minimal.

Ayu did get to interact with Mai, but Mai was the one who helped Ayu's arc, not the other way around. Now... if they have a touching heart-to-heart talk in this Kanon's finale( due to their endings overlapping), then we can include Ayu in Mai's 'healing'. In fact, this may be one of the reasons why KyoAni chose to make sure Ayu and Mai met each other early.

When Yuuichi sought to aid Mai, he went to Nayuki for advise. Both the dance and bunny-ears were due to Nayuki's influence. Without Nayuki, there would be no dance.

Sayuri's influence in K06 was significantly less than her influence in K02, but she still had influence in K06. Once introduced to the plan about the dance, Sayuri ended up being the one who saved the day by supplying the dresses for the dance. She was also the one who organised Mai's birthday, not Yuuichi.

I do admit however, that I am a little disappointed that they did not fully flesh out the Kuze issue, as that was one of Sayuri's biggest contributions to the Mai's arc. Still, K06 was able to fully flesh out Mai's backstory.

Mai's arc is probably the only one thus far that requires watching of both K02 and K06 in order to get the most of Mai's arc( still praying for a Mai-centric remake ).

Shiori's Arc:
---- ----
Do I really need to explain this one?!?!

Ayu, Nayuki, Kaori, and Jun.

Tell you what, I already did two out of three. I am pretty sure it should be intuitive by now on how one should re-examine Shiori's arc and see how the various characters rallied around Yuuichi in order to help him resolve Shiori's issue.

To bring across one point bluntly, without Kaori helping him, Shiori's issue would NEVER be resolved. Kaori is the more important person here, in terms of Shiori's issue. Not Yuuichi. K06 has taken great pains to emphasise this point over and over again.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-02-03, 02:44   Link #364
CrowKenobi
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^^Skane makes absolutely the best points about Yuuichi's "superhero-ness."

I think what is being overlooked here is not that Yuuichi is a superhero who tries to solve everyone's problems, the more important (and more interesting) question is how he goes about to try and solve those problems.

The end product is getting all the attention, not the journey to get there.
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Old 2007-02-03, 04:31   Link #365
DanielSong39
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To be perfectly fair, there are HUGE differences in how Yuuichi is portrayed in various media. Kanon 2006 is probably the closest to the original source material in that he literally behaves like a protagonist in a bishoujo game - he somehow forms the deepest bonds with 5 different girls, to the point that they become dependent on him. Toei portrayed him as a typical clueless teenager, who tries to be nice to others - but also makes mistakes due to his immaturity. And the manga even went a step further, as Yuuichi develops a very close relationship with Nayuki, and they work as a team to help their friends.

To their credit, KyoAni has done their best to produce a faithful adaptation, but there's some value to reinventing the story, as well. The truth is that the various adaptations cater to different audience, and all play a role in introducing people to the story. If someone doesn't like the 2006 adaptation, that's their preference - but there's always the chance that they will like one of the other adaptations, and become a fan of Kanon.
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Old 2007-02-03, 06:41   Link #366
panzerfan
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What a sudden change of heart- suppose that humanity is like that.

As said countless times before, KyoAni has the mindset of making Yuuichi into a fatherly figure that has a healing touch and reaches the ethoes of those around him. This is a more mature Yuuichi that knows he can seek out resources and support than the Toei incarnation, and he has quite a conviction behind his acts as he makes good of his words. Seeing him triumph to me is to see a reasonable person able to do good...
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Old 2007-02-03, 06:45   Link #367
npal
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What I don't like is that in the end Yuuichi's contribution in Mai's and Shiori's arc is overemphasized, which didn't happen in Toei's version. In that aspect, I prefer Toei's version. I mean, it's easy to tell the difference with the examples I used before. Getting help wasn't emphasized, it was still Yuuichi who does most of the crucial work, and it's exclusively Yuuichi that gets the spotlight in the end of Mai's and Shiori's arc, which was not the case in 2k2 and I much preferred that version.

And I'll agree with DanielSong for once. It DOES seem like a ero game adaptation, which wasn't the case with Toei's version. And I liked how I didn't think Toei's version wasn't a simple ero game conversion. This version does show its origins, and while it's a good story, I believe Toei did a better work (despite the ending) in hiding aspects of the game in favor of something different.

It's not that much of a deal breaker, this version has its merits, but it does make KyoAni's version less memorable from where I stand. As it is, I still consider Toei's version, with its strange animation to be a superior version as far as storytelling is concerned. Of course, that's my opinion and I take most didn't like Toei's version so much, but whatever. I'd gladly give Toei 24 episodes to work on instead of KyoAni. Some might feel that Yuuichi always being in the spotlight like your usual ero game hero isn't bad, or that's what it's all about, an exact ero game conversion, but I'd rather have Toei do it.

The show is enjoyable as it is, but I think that some things shouldn't have been sacrificed for a close ero game replication and godly animation. I don't know whether it was in the game or not, but the comedy in this version is very good and at least Makoto's arc was very nicely done. For me, both Mai's and Shiori's arc were lacking things I appreciated in Toei's version, despite the lower episode count and the omission of valuable clues.

Anyway, I hope that they'll give me something that was seriously missing from Toei, an ending I can appreciate.
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Last edited by npal; 2007-02-03 at 07:03. Reason: yeah, that was 24 episodes :heh:
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Old 2007-02-03, 06:49   Link #368
panzerfan
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Well, here's to hoping for a Toei Kanon with KyoAni animation... as I would love to having watched 26ep KyoAni Kanon, then turn to the abridged Toei version. (you can always read the script of Kanon for the best experience possible. I now mentally picture the KyoAni designs as I read through it.)
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Old 2007-02-03, 11:13   Link #369
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielSong39 View Post
To be perfectly fair, there are HUGE differences in how Yuuichi is portrayed in various media. Kanon 2006 is probably the closest to the original source material in that he literally behaves like a protagonist in a bishoujo game - he somehow forms the deepest bonds with 5 different girls, to the point that they become dependent on him. Toei portrayed him as a typical clueless teenager, who tries to be nice to others - but also makes mistakes due to his immaturity. And the manga even went a step further, as Yuuichi develops a very close relationship with Nayuki, to the point where he couldn't take a piss without Nayuki there to laugh in her sleeves at the mediocre size of his manhood.
Fixed for accuracy. (Actually, it's more for laughs. So don't take it too personally. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielSong39 View Post
To their credit, KyoAni has done their best to produce a faithful adaptation, but there's some value to reinventing the story, as well. The truth is that the various adaptations cater to different audience, and all play a role in introducing people to the story. If someone doesn't like the 2006 adaptation, that's their preference - but there's always the chance that they will like one of the other adaptations, and become a fan of Kanon.
Once again, DanielSong39, you surprised me by actually making sense. What's going on here?! *freaking out*

Nevertheless, while I can't argue with the fact that there's some value to reinventing a story, I still say that when it comes down to it, there still has to be a line drawn between sensible alteration of a storyline, and going too far. To many fans of the original story, Toei's version crossed that line; yes it was a good enough story on its own, but the problem was, it wasn't Kanon. If an adapatation of something else makes so much changes to the source material that it loses the original spirit, then it's a failure as an adaptation as far as true aficionados of the original material are concerned.

That, to most fans of the original story, was the failing of ToeiKanon; anyone can make a few more changes in the plot, switch out the original cast and put similar personalities in their place, drop the Kanon brand name, and it'll be something entirely different altogether; or worse, even a generic harem comedy like certain people seem to keep thinking it is. *eyes* And while DanielSong39 has a point in that different adaptations of Kanon serve to attract more fanbase, my counterpoint to that point of his is this: adaptations that stray too far from the source material also serve to attract the wrong kind of fans. Specifically, anime viewers who would otherwise not have identified with the original material, and instead get the wrong ideas from the watered-down versions that they devour. And that's not even mentioning those who get the wrong impression from even the watered-down versions, and end up going "hentai secks gaemz LOL" everywhere. End result? Not only do they give the true Kanon fans grief with comments that seem utterly n00bish to them (and rightfully so), they spread the disease of negative impressions to the wider multitude, discouraging even those who may be new to the anime scene, but who might have developed an interest in these kinds of storylines if not for the fact that they were repelled by the "hentai secks gaemz LOL" comments.

In other words, in some cases widening the fan base through different adaptations may be a good thing, but Kanon was made to be a niche title. It's not supposed to appeal to the general multitude; all it's supposed to need is a small, but vocal band of supporters who truly understand the genre and the piece itself, as opposed to a larger group with all the wrong impressions about it.
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Old 2007-02-03, 11:47   Link #370
Skane
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I would also like to point out that KyoAni has been altering the Kanon-canon as well. The most noticeable example being Jun's interference with Kuze.

None of the anime adaptations that KyoAni has done has been 100% faithful, and all of them without exception have been altered in some way or another from the canonical source material.

What KyoAni excels in however, is retaining the spirit of the original source material. Much like how Peter Jackson retained the spirit of LotR, despite making substantial alterations to the storyline.

I mentioned a quote earlier in this thread, which I think bears repeating,

Click Here

If you want a totally different story, then make one. Don't rob a name and claim it to be the real thing.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-02-03, 12:05   Link #371
npal
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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post


Nevertheless, while I can't argue with the fact that there's some value to reinventing a story, I still say that when it comes down to it, there still has to be a line drawn between sensible alteration of a storyline, and going too far. To many fans of the original story, Toei's version crossed that line; yes it was a good enough story on its own, but the problem was, it wasn't Kanon. If an adapatation of something else makes so much changes to the source material that it loses the original spirit, then it's a failure as an adaptation as far as true aficionados of the original material are concerned.

That, to most fans of the original story, was the failing of ToeiKanon; anyone can make a few more changes in the plot, switch out the original cast and put similar personalities in their place, drop the Kanon brand name, and it'll be something entirely different altogether; or worse, even a generic harem comedy like certain people seem to keep thinking it is. *eyes* And while DanielSong39 has a point in that different adaptations of Kanon serve to attract more fanbase, my counterpoint to that point of his is this: adaptations that stray too far from the source material also serve to attract the wrong kind of fans. Specifically, anime viewers who would otherwise not have identified with the original material, and instead get the wrong ideas from the watered-down versions that they devour. And that's not even mentioning those who get the wrong impression from even the watered-down versions, and end up going "hentai secks gaemz LOL" everywhere. End result? Not only do they give the true Kanon fans grief with comments that seem utterly n00bish to them (and rightfully so), they spread the disease of negative impressions to the wider multitude, discouraging even those who may be new to the anime scene, but who might have developed an interest in these kinds of storylines if not for the fact that they were repelled by the "hentai secks gaemz LOL" comments.

In other words, in some cases widening the fan base through different adaptations may be a good thing, but Kanon was made to be a niche title. It's not supposed to appeal to the general multitude; all it's supposed to need is a small, but vocal band of supporters who truly understand the genre and the piece itself, as opposed to a larger group with all the wrong impressions about it.
This whole thing does seem like it's some sort of flamebait. "Noobish (and rightfully so)" , "wrong type of fans". You are effectively accusing people because they find flaws, just because you think that the show and the game is flawless. Nothing is flawless. Damn, I could even break down masterpieces and still come up with some sort of flaw.

The attitude of "everything is perfect" is something I utterly despise and I've seen it more than enough times around the forum. It's one thing to consider flaws but still take a liking to something and another trying to convince others that there are no flaws whatsoever and only true fans can appreciate the "superior" writing of X while everyone else is below the critical IQ threshold to marvel at the genius of an ero game conversion.

The case with LoTR was the other way around. I had read the whole thing, then it comes out in cinemas and I was fretting about so many stuff omitted and some stuff added to make it marketable to the larger audience. As a set of movies, it's still pretty good, the larger audience liked it indeed, but I was a bit discontent at the stuff that was changed or omitted. However, having essentially 3 people hold a fort against 10k was too much for a movie if you don't know the history behind middle earth, so they sent the elves in. They included a story found in one of the appendices because they wanted romance added to the movies. There were changes here and there that felt weird, but for a movie adaptation, having it otherwise would sprung a series of drawbacks, the main one of course being that only people who liked it in the first place would watch it. And these changes on something that's an exceptional work of art.

Kanon is not even close to be considered a masterpiece. It's one of its own kind, it's one of the diamonds among its kind, but it's still an ero game, and as an ero game, it shares some of the genre's faults, which cripple storytelling at various points when you try to convert them. Depending on the approach it takes, it's judged accordingly. A strictly romantic comedy warrants disregarding many flaws. Something that wants to be serious should be ready to accept serious criticism. And Kanon 2k6 isn't helped with already having another version to compare itself to. Game players may think that strict adherence to the original material must be applauded and we should worship KyoAni for the animation quality. I don't mind the animation as long as the story's good, so while animation is a plus, it's only a plus and not an incredible benefit. However, if the original material is flawed (ero games not only have ero genre flaws but they are also games, which means that they give too much focus on 1 main character instead of creating many characters and spreading the focus -although I know a number of games that are very good to avoid this flaw), it warrants changes to eliminate as many flaws as humanely possible. Toei's version didn't give me the impression that this was taken from an ero game. I was actually surprised that it was an ero game adaptation. KyoAni stays closer to the original material, and thus stays closer to the inherent flaws that the ero game Kanon has, while the only extra things they give is the animation and comedy, which don't make up for the flaws that are part of the original concept.

You can't actually compare the LoTR conversion to Kanon conversion for all the reasons above. They don't stand on an equal level to be judged equally. In LoTR and any other literature masterpiece, retaining the spirit of the original material is essential. In ero game conversions, which are inherently flawed in a number of aspects, retaining more of the original than necessary means that the end result will also be flawed.

To sum up, I believe that if something is inherently flawed, you should take steps to make it better (as was the case of some other ero game conversions like Canvas 2 or the Toei Kanon adaptation -although I thought the ending was cheap, and I'll see in this version whether it's Toei's fault or I should blame the original material for that, too). It's called artistic license and it's one of those times when you can actually make good use of it. Now, if people like it despite the flaws, no argument there. I can point out various flaws in my favorite series and like them despite that. But to be so fervent about Kanon being perfect and KyoAni's adaptation being excellent and that only true fans understand it is going too far.
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Old 2007-02-03, 12:39   Link #372
Skane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
This whole thing does seem like it's some sort of flamebait. "Noobish (and rightfully so)" , "wrong type of fans". You are effectively accusing people because they find flaws, just because you think that the show and the game is flawless. Nothing is flawless. Damn, I could even break down masterpieces and still come up with some sort of flaw.

The attitude of "everything is perfect" is something I utterly despise and I've seen it more than enough times around the forum. It's one thing to consider flaws but still take a liking to something and another trying to convince others that there are no flaws whatsoever and only true fans can appreciate the "superior" writing of X while everyone else is below the critical IQ threshold to marvel at the genius of an ero game conversion.

The case with LoTR was the other way around. I had read the whole thing, then it comes out in cinemas and I was fretting about so many stuff omitted and some stuff added to make it marketable to the larger audience. As a set of movies, it's still pretty good, the larger audience liked it indeed, but I was a bit discontent at the stuff that was changed or omitted. However, having essentially 3 people hold a fort against 10k was too much for a movie if you don't know the history behind middle earth, so they sent the elves in. They included a story found in one of the appendices because they wanted romance added to the movies. There were changes here and there that felt weird, but for a movie adaptation, having it otherwise would sprung a series of drawbacks, the main one of course being that only people who liked it in the first place would watch it. And these changes on something that's an exceptional work of art.

Kanon is not even close to be considered a masterpiece. It's one of its own kind, it's one of the diamonds among its kind, but it's still an ero game, and as an ero game, it shares some of the genre's faults, which cripple storytelling at various points when you try to convert them. Depending on the approach it takes, it's judged accordingly. A strictly romantic comedy warrants disregarding many flaws. Something that wants to be serious should be ready to accept serious criticism. And Kanon 2k6 isn't helped with already having another version to compare itself to. Game players may think that strict adherence to the original material must be applauded and we should worship KyoAni for the animation quality. I don't mind the animation as long as the story's good, so while animation is a plus, it's only a plus and not an incredible benefit. However, if the original material is flawed (ero games not only have ero genre flaws but they are also games, which means that they give too much focus on 1 main character instead of creating many characters and spreading the focus -although I know a number of games that are very good to avoid this flaw), it warrants changes to eliminate as many flaws as humanely possible. Toei's version didn't give me the impression that this was taken from an ero game. I was actually surprised that it was an ero game adaptation. KyoAni stays closer to the original material, and thus stays closer to the inherent flaws that the ero game Kanon has, while the only extra things they give is the animation and comedy, which don't make up for the flaws that are part of the original concept.

You can't actually compare the LoTR conversion to Kanon conversion for all the reasons above. They don't stand on an equal level to be judged equally. In LoTR and any other literature masterpiece, retaining the spirit of the original material is essential. In ero game conversions, which are inherently flawed in a number of aspects, retaining more of the original than necessary means that the end result will also be flawed.

To sum up, I believe that if something is inherently flawed, you should take steps to make it better (as was the case of some other ero game conversions like Canvas 2 or the Toei Kanon adaptation -although I thought the ending was cheap, and I'll see in this version whether it's Toei's fault or I should blame the original material for that, too). It's called artistic license and it's one of those times when you can actually make good use of it. Now, if people like it despite the flaws, no argument there. I can point out various flaws in my favorite series and like them despite that. But to be so fervent about Kanon being perfect and KyoAni's adaptation being excellent and that only true fans understand it is going too far.
You mentioned ero-genre flaws in K06, and aside from the mention of character focus, exactly what kind of flaws are you talking about here? I am willing to discuss criticism of K06 with you, but I want to know what exactly are these flaws that you are talking about.

I may not have been vocal about it, but I do have my fair share of nitpicks with K06 as well. It is just that K06 has been relatively much more positive than negative for me.

Also, it should also be noted that part of the reason why the Kanon game became famous is that it only has superficial similarities to the typical ero-game. It was the story that sold the game, and it is almost universally accepted that the sex scenes in Kanon were unnecessary and usually detrimental to the mood. An unusual stance by ero-gamers by all accounts.

Furthermore, notice if you will, the changes that have been made in K06 and pointed out by the veteran gamers. You argued that KyoAni should take steps to improve the storyline. Well... what do you think they have been doing these past 18 episodes?

I repeat again. KyoAni does not adhere to the canonical source material 100%. There was no 3D CGI space battles in the SHnY novels. They left out the second cheat in that same episode. They almost completely rewrote the material of Lone Island Syndrome. And much more.

The same applies to K06. The Kanon game was very well loved by the masses that played it, and to completely change the spirit of the story is akin to slapping them in the faces.

By all means please fix the flaws, but don't drastically alter the spirit/meaning of the story. I really wish people would stop saying that KyoAni adheres to the source material to a fault.

They DON'T.

Not even with Air(TV). And don't even get me started on the changes they made to the source material of FMP!~TSR( the gender of the twins is just the tip of the iceberg).

What KyoAni does is to present and animate faithfully, the spirit of the show. In some cases( or most, if you want to be a KyoAni fanboy), they even succeed in exceeding the source material. That is the 'golden touch' of KyoAni. That is why people heap so much praises on them. They don't just take what's good and animate it to a T. They take what's good and try to make it even better without disrespecting the spirit of it.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-02-03, 13:31   Link #373
npal
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Well, I've already voiced my concerns on the subject in various points I still don't know about the ending, but I'll find out soon.

My gripe is that scenes that were more forceful in Toei's version somehow seem toned down in Kanon and I feel that at least in Mai's arc and Shiori's arc, Yuuichi got too much focus, whereas Toei's version used the most important characters in that specific arc to make a point and close the arc (Kaori for Shiori, Sayuri for Mai). Here, Yuuichi is the main focus of anything. And I can't help but think that it resembles an ero game in that respect. And Yuuichi getting the focus there helps see that he gets the focus in everything else in Kanon, instead of most other characters that can't solve any problem among themselves. Sure he's the main character, but Toei's version didn't feel like he was getting undue focus and actually utilized more characters to key points instead of Yuuichi. That didn't really cheapen Yuuichi's involvement, it felt like everyone got what they should have.

Would I have a problem with that if Toei's version didn't have an alternate telling? Well, no, I don't expect that much of eroge conversions to think that far ahead, but seeing Toei's Yuuichi giving away the spotlight to other characters was a huge plus to the overall plot and made both Mai's and Shiori's arc being more emotional and if I may add, they seemed better written than what I am assumed to suppose from KyoAni's version. It's not like it's bad, but I believe that Toei's version, even with the omitted material, was better in using all characters effectively. KyoAni uses characters here and there, but in the end it's always Yuuichi, which makes Sayuri and Kaori in the respective arcs lose the extra value Toei had given them. Which makes me feel disappointed for 2 out of 3 arcs so far, even after the addition of stuff that Toei's version didn't have. And KyoAni has the double Nayuki-Ayu arc still to go and this arc was already for Yuuichi alone to solve anyway, so they really can't do anything about it now.

My other main gripe was with Toei's ending, but that's not an ero game's fault and I haven't seen KyoAni's version so I can't compare the two or criticize KyoAni's ending version.

Well, I don't perceive Air as an ero game conversion And they did a very good job there. And since you say that, while they don't stick 100% to the original material, they stick pretty close to convey the spirit of the story, it just makes me think that Air was better written than Kanon. Air's story was good enough to be told more or less as is without feeling like an ero game conversion. Misuzu got a heavy deal of focus, so did Yukito, and in the middle, Yukito's role ended in favor of another character, but the series was still a success even without the male lead. It's a far better story than Kanon if you ask me. Air is still in my favorites list, while even Toei's Kanon was removed because of the ending (AND because some "true fans" fervently defended it as being the "true" ending, which of course made me think bad for the original material). In a Kanon-Air adaptation comparison, Air sweeps the floor with both Kanon adaptations (and maybe the Kanon game in general).

For the other ero game flaws, no matter how KyoAni tried to interweave them, it's still "arc start-arc resolve" and if you take a look at the episode threads, you'll notice that everyone can tell . A smart interweaving would actually use Toei's suggestion and have OTHER characters than the male lead solve the problem, while allowing the lead to act as a catalyst, so that they can focus on different arcs at once, since the male lead doesn't need to explicitly solve everything, just make events move.

The rest of the flaws.

Thankfully both Kanon adaptations don't share two major conversion flaws a) inability of the character to decide ANYTHING and b) totally lame story where girls just like the protagonist, while having some problems that seem minor to the general idea that the lead must choose. I mean, I know of some conversions that bring a totally lame aspect of the game onscreen, like the ridiculous F/SN "mana recharge". I mean, it's ok for a game, even though it's still crap, but making it into the series? It made me wonder "who the hell writes this crap?" Or some other stuff being animated that are equally lame.

The other flaw that many ero games share is abundance of girls. Too many girls isn't a problem in a game, since your choices affect the outcome and focus on less girls depending on what path you're in, but when adapting the game, it becomes a problem. Too many characters that are supposedly necessary makes less screentime available for each one and makes creating a decent story for the series very difficult, since you can't focus on the characters who need the focus. Of course, animators could decide to take ONE path alone and animate it, but a)the story is questionable at best, most ero games don't share Kanon's interesting stories, and b)the market for the animation is small as it is, displeasing most of the fans by animating only one arc won't yield good revenues. So they are forced to give screentime to everyone, put the stories in a blender and come up with an abomination most of the time.

So what does that leave us? You can't accuse Kanon for crappy story, a moron for a lead or many girls that can't stand together. That leaves us with the main lead taking too much focus and taking away focus from characters that appear more important in an arc than himself and the more or less modular arc adaptation. Interweaving remains on too low levels to be considered as such. Having Mai strolling around talking about Makoto or Ayu while her arc isn't really progressing isn't interweaving. Having 2 or more arcs progressing at the same time is successful interweaving, and doing that when just one character is the master solver can't be done, no matter how hard you try. In essence, the first flaw makes the second more apparent. Toei's version also followed a modular approach, although they didn't try to include clues of the other arcs here and there, but they gave the spotlight to important characters at the expense of the main lead when it made sense and that worked.

So, as far as I'm concerned, KyoAni's Kanon has more flaws than did Toei's in the storytelling department. KyoAni just uses more material. My only gripe with Toei's version was the ending. In KyoAni's version I'm already seeing flaws that I didn't see in Toei's. Although Toei's approach was strictly modular, the use of the characters made up for it. KyoAni isn't really interweaving and it's Yuuichi's game. So yeah, so far I have more gripes for KyoAni's storytelling than Toei's.
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Last edited by npal; 2007-02-03 at 17:25. Reason: correcting correcting
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Old 2007-02-03, 16:24   Link #374
Meophist
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npal: I disagree.

I wish I could just end the post with just that, but then I know you(or someone else) are going to tear me apart if I do.

When I watched Kanon '02, I didn't really know much about the ero-game genre. I mean, I've heard about it, but it only went to that extent. However, when I watched Kanon for the first time, I still got the feeling that this is just one of those "dating sims". That feeling never went away, even though I did enjoy it.

I think one of the problems was Yuuichi. He seemed way too typical, with no real character. His amnesia seemed just convenient, even when it was explained. I don't really remember him doing much. (But then again, I don't remember much of Kanon '02 as a whole. I should watch it again.)

Kanon '06 feels different to me. I don't think it feels like an ero-game conversion, it feels like something else entirely. I don't know what though. Yuuichi feels like a person now, rather than a placeholder. He's kinda wierd, but it's not like the other characters don't point that out.

I don't disagree that Kanon '06 does have its flaws. The "arc-start arc-end" does seem somewhat sudden, at least for Makoto and Mai, but I think it interweaved well for Shiori's arc. There's still a good amount of the show left, so it's hard to comment on its entirely. There's also the case about the secondary characters not getting too much attention. By this, I'm mostly talking about Amano. I felt that after she basically became friends with Yuuichi at the end of Makoto's arc, they should include her into future stories, even if her role is very minor. I'm disappointed that this didn't happen.

As for the other secondary characters, I felt that they were handled well. I like the fact that each arc so far starts with Yuuichi and the girl and ends that way. It adds a feel of repetition that I enjoy.

…I was going to post more, but I can't think of anything to post at the moment.
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Old 2007-02-03, 17:26   Link #375
Devil Doll
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Originally Posted by Richard 23 View Post
Apples and strawberries? You lost me there.

Here I was thinking it was pears and bananas. *smacks self*
I was referring to

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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Devil Doll likes them apples, I like them strawberries.
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Originally Posted by panzerfan View Post
Well, here's to hoping for a Toei Kanon with KyoAni animation... as I would love to having watched 26ep KyoAni Kanon, then turn to the abridged Toei version. (you can always read the script of Kanon for the best experience possible. I now mentally picture the KyoAni designs as I read through it.)
This might then become one of my favourite animes of all times.

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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
To many fans of the original story, Toei's version crossed that line; yes it was a good enough story on its own, but the problem was, it wasn't Kanon. If an adapatation of something else makes so much changes to the source material that it loses the original spirit, then it's a failure as an adaptation as far as true aficionados of the original material are concerned.
This appears to be the fundamental point of the discussion. I don't care whether Kanon (2002 as well as 2006) is an adaptation of a game - all I care about is whether it is a good, reasonable, plausible story. Are we anime fans or marketing managers?

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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
my counterpoint to that point of his is this: adaptations that stray too far from the source material also serve to attract the wrong kind of fans.
Thanks for making it absolutely clear to every reader of this thread that you consider yourself the only person on this earth to decide who's the "right" kind of fan.

Last edited by Devil Doll; 2007-02-03 at 19:00.
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Old 2007-02-03, 21:08   Link #376
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IMHO, I prefer Toei's resolution of Shiori's arc had a stronger effect than KyoAni's one, even though KyoAni may have been sticking to the game material. In KyoAni's remake, I didn't feel that Shiori and Kaori's relationship was completely mended. The closest they came together was when Kaori suggested to Shiori that they talk a lot later. But Toei's version had a more dramatic approach that convinced me that Kaori felt sorry for shunning her sister and the part where they expressed themselves to each other had a stronger impact than KyoAni's, emotionally.
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Old 2007-02-03, 21:31   Link #377
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Merridew: If they're sticking to the game material, then Shiori's arc isn't done and should be revisited in the spring (or perhaps even next episode...the preview suggested Shiori will at the least be discussed)
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Old 2007-02-04, 01:48   Link #378
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Originally Posted by npal View Post
This whole thing does seem like it's some sort of flamebait. "Noobish (and rightfully so)" , "wrong type of fans". You are effectively accusing people because they find flaws, just because you think that the show and the game is flawless. Nothing is flawless. Damn, I could even break down masterpieces and still come up with some sort of flaw.

The attitude of "everything is perfect" is something I utterly despise and I've seen it more than enough times around the forum. It's one thing to consider flaws but still take a liking to something and another trying to convince others that there are no flaws whatsoever and only true fans can appreciate the "superior" writing of X while everyone else is below the critical IQ threshold to marvel at the genius of an ero game conversion......

.....To sum up, I believe that if something is inherently flawed, you should take steps to make it better (as was the case of some other ero game conversions like Canvas 2 or the Toei Kanon adaptation -although I thought the ending was cheap, and I'll see in this version whether it's Toei's fault or I should blame the original material for that, too). It's called artistic license and it's one of those times when you can actually make good use of it. Now, if people like it despite the flaws, no argument there. I can point out various flaws in my favorite series and like them despite that. But to be so fervent about Kanon being perfect and KyoAni's adaptation being excellent and that only true fans understand it is going too far.
Weeeeeeeell.........what I said certainly doesn't sound very good, now that I think about it. My apologies, npal. I'll back down from that stand.

Nevertheless, I still stand by the point I was trying to make, although I'm all for rewording it, which I'll do right now. In actuality, I don't really mind viewers who look for flaws in something I like; it actually makes me think about what I like so much about it, and it gives me a reason to exercise my critical thinking faculties. Nevertheless, you do understand where I was really going with what I said the last time round, right? It's those viewers who profess a dislike without giving a substantiated argument, and those who profess a certain view without any attempt to understand the underlying spirit of the story, that I cannot stand, leading me to think that perhaps Kanon is the kind of niche title that would do better without attempting to appeal to the general audience.

I never once believed Kanon to be a perfect story, nor did I believe that it is flawless to the point where those who understand it must definitely have a lower class of IQ. Nevertheless, though I can recognize that Kanon does indeed have its inherent flaws, I have my doubts about taking the approach of taking steps to "make it better" in an adaptation through artistic license. And for a very good reason too; such an approach would also be inherently subjective. Sure, it's not a bad idea to try to "make it better".....but as this is the world that we live in, we invariably have to deal with the fact that "making it better" means different things to different people. One might take a source material, and make his or her tweaks to it to "make it better" according to his own lights, but if it turns out to be something so unlike to the source material that the spirit of the original story is lost, is it necessarily better?

Therefore, my stand on adaptations has always been not how faithful it is to the source material, but on how faithful it is to the spirit of the original storyline. This is where Peter Jackson's LoTR won it for me. This is where Toei's Kanon lost it for me. This is where KyoAni's AIR (TV) won it for me. And this is where KyoAni's Kanon won it for me, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
My gripe is that scenes that were more forceful in Toei's version somehow seem toned down in Kanon and I feel that at least in Mai's arc and Shiori's arc, Yuuichi got too much focus, whereas Toei's version used the most important characters in that specific arc to make a point and close the arc (Kaori for Shiori, Sayuri for Mai). Here, Yuuichi is the main focus of anything. And I can't help but think that it resembles an ero game in that respect. And Yuuichi getting the focus there helps see that he gets the focus in everything else in Kanon, instead of most other characters that can't solve any problem among themselves. Sure he's the main character, but Toei's version didn't feel like he was getting undue focus and actually utilized more characters to key points instead of Yuuichi. That didn't really cheapen Yuuichi's involvement, it felt like everyone got what they should have.
Forgive me for Omnislashing your post into bits, but I needed to do so to organize my thoughts better.

For your second point where Yuuichi seems to be the main focus of everything, that's something I can see from your POV, to a certain extent. But, it's also where the charm of the original Kanon game storyline comes from.

A reviewer of Kana: Imouto once used this line to describe it: "It is still a bishoujo game, and bishoujo games live or die by the extent that you are willing to throw yourself into them."

I liked this sentence, not only because it applied to Kana, but once I had thought about it, it felt like it applied to Kanon as well. Indeed, in the original game, Aizawa Yuuichi was a faceless character, and for a very good reason; the player of the game has to throw himself into the role of Yuuichi to fully appreciate the true extent of each of the girls' storylines. Making Yuuichi faceless makes it easier for the player to immerse himself into Yuuichi's role, to actually believe he is Yuuichi, and thus to feel like he could actually form a bond with the girls.

Let's take it, firstly, to Toei Kanon. Obviously, while the "faceless immersion" approach of the original Kanon VN worked well within its own media, a conversion into anime simply couldn't work as well. So Toei made the obvious decision in order to appeal to the majority of anime fans who were not familiar with the original Kanon; give Yuuichi a face and a personality that was typical, and even generic, for bishoujo conversions of its time, cut and slash certain parts of the storyline so that it wouldn't seem like Yuuichi was getting all the attention, and shift some of the focus to the other characters to make up for the shortfall. The end result? A version of Kanon that the majority of anime viewers could understand....but at the same time, infuriate the Kanon veterans who feel shortchanged not only by the fact that the story became something other than what they knew, but also by a Yuuichi who was not only such a weakling as a character that he seemed to hardly deserve being in his role, but who was also so much of a stranger, that the veterans could not identify with his character; much less "immerse" themselves into his role. This is the main reason why Toei was consigned to the bin by most Kanon fans when KyoAni's announcement of the remake came out.

And speaking of KyoAni, let us now turn to KyoAni Kanon. From the get-go, KyoAni's intention in their re-adaptation of Kanon was to retain the original spirit of the game; thus, a Yuuichi who seemed a bit too much like Kyon, but was in fact a close homage to the original game Yuuichi, and an adaptation of events in the anime to more or less coincide with, or at least keep the original spirit, of events that actually happened in the game itself. So far, they have succeeded in their aim, allowing the Kanon veterans to not only identify with this Yuuichi who was so similar to the one they knew from the game, but to immerse themselves into his role as well as they once did with the game Yuuichi himself. After all, KyoAni's Yuuichi WAS game Yuuichi, and even though he, like Toei Yuuichi, had a face and a voice that matched Kyon's a little too closely, it was not hard for the veterans familiar with the original Yuuichi's personality to overlook all of that and immerse themselves into his role instead.

However, there IS one thing I'll concede that KyoAni Kanon isn't quite as good in as Toei Kanon was; compared to the latter, KyoAni Kanon wasn't as newbie-friendly. However, that was never the intention of KyoAni; the point of KyoAni's adaptation was to cater to the Kanon veterans, as opposed to Toei's intention of reaching to the masses who had never played the game before. Therefore, for those who never knew the game, and therefore never knew the experience of immersing themselves into the role of Yuuichi in the game, KyoAni's Yuuichi merely looked to them as a character they're beginning to understand.

See the fundamental disconnect here between the Kanon veterans and the newbies? It is true that in KyoAni's Kanon, a great deal more of the attention seems to be focused on him; but Kanon veterans, having gone through the experience of immersing themselves into Yuuichi's role back in 1999 through the game, are able to see the events through his eyes in a first-person POV, and thus empathize with them as if those events were happening to themselves. Whilst on the other hand, Kanon newbies who have never gone through the experience of self-immersion into Yuuichi's role, are able only to see him as a character from their own third-person POV, and thus think of him as being someone way too involved in the events. Unable to throw themselves into the story, those new to the Kanon story would therefore find it harder to empathize, and instead have to judge the story by the benchmarks that they know; that of the standard anime story structure.

Therefore, as far as I can tell of the discussion that has happened here so far, it's not that Kanon is a badly-written story......it's just something different compared to what those unfamiliar with it are more familiar with, and since it doesn't meet the expectations arbitarily imposed upon it by them, it fails in their eyes. When, in fact, it's just a different genre altogether. As far as I'm concerned, the biggest flaw in KyoAni's Kanon is not that it has a bad story structure, since it was never supposed to conform to the traditional story structures of other media, but that it is newbie-unfriendly, and thus prone to misunderstandings.

Nevertheless, I do think there is one improvement that KyoAni could have made in their adaptation, and not only would this change have continued to appease the Kanon veterans, it would also stand a better chance of converting more newbies than it is currently doing now. Granted it may not be a perfect solution, but it would have been better in enabling newbies to fully appreciate the scope of Kanon in its entirety, while keeping the original spirit of Kanon. And it's not like KyoAni couldn't do it either; in fact, they have done it before, and just recently at that.

And no, it's not to "go Toei".

What then? Make a guess.

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Here's my suggestion; "go SHnY".

Or, to be more specific, they could have made Yuuichi go even more Kyon then he is already, and have the audience hear the self-narration of his own thoughts as he goes through the events of Kanon. The purpose of this would have been two-fold, on the one hand, it would impress the Kanon veterans even further, letting them experience even more intensely the original VN feeling of the storytelling they were used to in the game. At the same time, it would help the Kanon newbies by giving them an insight into Yuuichi's thoughts, allowing them to understand his thoughts about things that have already happened, and his motivations for everything he does.

Would it be the same as allowing them to fully immerse themselves into Yuuichi's role? Not really. But it's the bloody damned closest thing to it one can get in an anime adaptation. And if KyoAni can make a success out of that approach in SHnY, why can't they do the same for Kanon?



For your first point about scenes seeming toned down in KyoAni Kanon that were more forceful in Toei Kanon. I'll bring back up a previous argument about Japanese tearjerkers in general falling into two categories of concluding methods; "heartwarming fairytales" and "epic tragedies".

First post on this page is where my thesis on both categories of Japanese tragedies are. Can someone teach me how to link to individual posts, again?

I'll like to add on to that; the story structures of "heartwarming fairytales" tend to be such that events are handled in a soft, melancholic mood, a "subtle" approach, if you will. On the other hand, "epic tragedies" are structured to bring the most impact to a viewer as possible, a "strong" approach, if I may put it that way.

Now to put it in the context of Kanon. In a later part of your post, you stated that,

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
Well, I don't perceive Air as an ero game conversion And they did a very good job there. And since you say that, while they don't stick 100% to the original material, they stick pretty close to convey the spirit of the story, it just makes me think that Air was better written than Kanon. Air's story was good enough to be told more or less as is without feeling like an ero game conversion. Misuzu got a heavy deal of focus, so did Yukito, and in the middle, Yukito's role ended in favor of another character, but the series was still a success even without the male lead. It's a far better story than Kanon if you ask me. Air is still in my favorites list, while even Toei's Kanon was removed because of the ending (AND because some "true fans" fervently defended it as being the "true" ending, which of course made me think bad for the original material). In a Kanon-Air adaptation comparison, Air sweeps the floor with both Kanon adaptations (and maybe the Kanon game in general).
This part of your post merely gives me one thought about you, npal; that you prefer stories with the "strong" approach more than you do with the "subtle" ones. Fair enough; I can't fault you on that, nor can I even if I tried. As for your statement that it just makes you think AIR is better written than Kanon? I'll apply it to myself;

Do I think AIR is better written than Kanon? Perhaps. After all, Maeda Jun did apply the lessons learned from the creative process of Kanon into the creative process of AIR, after all. It certainly would make sense if AIR turned out to be better written because of that.

Do I think then, that Kanon as a story lags far behind AIR because of that? No. I don't think that, even if it does lag behind, it's not by a lot.

And on another note, the AIR game broke new ground in the structuring of visual novels; it's unique structure is why, when converted into a KyoAni anime, it feels much less like an ero-game conversion than a linear story. The AIR game itself is, in essence, a linear storyline after all; if you cut out two-thirds of the Dream Arc and leave yourself only with Misuzu's story, you can actually take it and fit it along with the Summer and Air Arcs to make one whole story with minimal continuity errors.

The Kanon game, on the other hand, used a more traditional VN path with multiple endings; which is why you might think that anime conversions of it ended up showing its origins more than AIR (TV) did; Toei just botched it up with a bad modular structure, while KyoAni did a reasonable interweaving approach that nonetheless may have been a little too subtle for its own good, since it seems to have eluded all but the most informed Kanon fans that it has actually succeeded so far in advancing more than one girl's arc at any one time. But before one can discredit the Kanon game for it, one should keep in mind this thing; Kanon was KEY's pioneering work, and many of the experiments that the KEY staff undertook under the Kanon platform eventually became the basis of AIR. To put it simply, if Kanon had not managed to etch its niche in the minds of VN fans as what was probably the first of its kind, and hence confirmed for KEY that there's value in using these kinds of storylines in their works, there would have been no AIR.

However, it is here that we encounter another problem; with the structures of both KEY works being so radically different from each other, it actually becomes very hard to compare the both of them. In this case, the only similarity that AIR has with Kanon in terms of story structure that one can find, is the Dream Arc; and once you compare the Dream Arc with Kanon's structure, where is the difference? It still ends up being three stories that barely affect each other, and in fact it loses to Kanon in terms of cross-arc events; barring the magical feathers, Kirishima Hijiri being the doctor in charge of Tohno's mother is the only one I can think of, while there are far more examples of cross-arc events in Kanon that make for a somewhat better continuity between all arcs; the Shiori-Ayu meetings, Makoto freeloading at the Minase's, the Nayuki-Kaori links in Shiori's arc etc. etc.

And it shows in the subsequent anime conversions. The Kano-Minagi segments of the Dream Arc in AIR (TV) only ended up turning out to me like they were unnecessary additions, in fact making the Toei mistake of modular; "each-girl-is-an-island-unto-herself" structuring, and in the end is only saved by the more tightly written and compelling story of Misuzu's Dream Arc segment fitted into the Summer and AIR arcs. On the other hand, the only reason KyoAni could do an "interweave" undertaking with Kanon (2006) is because the original material itself lends itself well to such an adaptation. Granted, even KyoAni could only do so much when the Dream Arc spans all of 7 episodes to tell 3 girls' stories (2 episode per girl isn't a lot of space to work with), but Kanon 2k6 is basically the example of how the Dream Arc should have been structured in AIR (TV). As it is, Misuzu tagging along with Yukito merely gives me the "guy-can't-pee-without-her-there-to-laugh-at-his-manhood" kind of vibe that I get with Yuuichi and Nayuki in the Toei and manga versions of Kanon, while Minagi.....was simply a story unto herself. On the other hand, the KyoAni interweaving helps to give a more "natural" flow to the entire storyline of Kanon, which was always its intention in the first place.

In conclusion, it's not the best idea to compare Kanon with AIR, except in the part of the one similarity in their otherwise very different story structures.....and that is where Kanon actually has the edge over AIR. As a whole, yes, AIR has the tighter storyline. But Kanon is still better at what it does; telling it the classic VN way, and KyoAni's Kanon merely emphasized that. Thus, I won't really say that either Kanon or AIR is better than the other; merely different, and each as good as the other in its own right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
For the other ero game flaws, no matter how KyoAni tried to interweave them, it's still "arc start-arc resolve" and if you take a look at the episode threads, you'll notice that everyone can tell . A smart interweaving would actually use Toei's suggestion and have OTHER characters than the male lead solve the problem, while allowing the lead to act as a catalyst, so that they can focus on different arcs at once, since the male lead doesn't need to explicitly solve everything, just make events move.
I'll contest the "arc start-arc resolve" part of your argument here.

For one thing, "everyone" seems to know where an arc starts. However, my observations of them tell me otherwise; thus far, in this interweaving of Kanon, most of the girls' arcs have actually started way before the focus was turned on them. To mark the point of "arc start" as the point where the focus is turned on the girl is an inherently flawed process; yet, it seems like it's the method "everyone" is using. I'll point out where each girls' arcs have actually started, but you know what, I'm sick and tired of repeatedly doing that, and "everyone" still not getting it. So I won't.

Just a suggestion to "everyone"; remember the lesson of SHnY. When the series is finished, rewatch it again from episode 1. You'll find yourselves going "oooh, now I get it" just as often as you have done in SHnY.

Next, the "arc ends" part. Again, this is debatable; "everyone" thinks they know where the arc ends, and in Makoto's case, they would be right. But as for Mai's and Shiori's case? That's still up in the air. It takes a Kanon veteran to know that both arcs feel unresolved.....because, in actual fact, they haven't been. KyoAni's not done with either arc yet, despite how it looks; therefore, wait on it until the entire series ends, before you give a definite opinion on the quality with which both arcs were resolved.

I'll not comment on your view of a "smart interweave" here, because my feeling is that it'll just end up as a conflict of differing views that has no end.


Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
So what does that leave us? You can't accuse Kanon for crappy story, a moron for a lead or many girls that can't stand together. That leaves us with the main lead taking too much focus and taking away focus from characters that appear more important in an arc than himself and the more or less modular arc adaptation. Interweaving remains on too low levels to be considered as such. Having Mai strolling around talking about Makoto or Ayu while her arc isn't really progressing isn't interweaving. Having 2 or more arcs progressing at the same time is successful interweaving, and doing that when just one character is the master solver can't be done, no matter how hard you try. In essence, the first flaw makes the second more apparent. Toei's version also followed a modular approach, although they didn't try to include clues of the other arcs here and there, but they gave the spotlight to important characters at the expense of the main lead when it made sense and that worked.
"Having 2 or more arcs progressing at the same time is successful interweaving, and doing that when just one character is the master solver can't be done, no matter how hard you try."

Again, I disagree with that. KyoAni HAS managed it. It's just you who hadn't seen it.

Again, I'll not point it out to you again; I'm sick of it already. Ask somebody else if you like, or figure it out for yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
So, as far as I'm concerned, KyoAni's Kanon has more flaws than did Toei's in the storytelling department. KyoAni just uses more material. My only gripe with Toei's version was the ending. In KyoAni's version I'm already seeing flaws that I didn't see in Toei's. Although Toei's approach was strictly modular, the use of the characters made up for it. KyoAni isn't really interweaving and it's Yuuichi's game. So yeah, so far I have more gripes for KyoAni's storytelling than Toei's.
Only because you're judging it by standards that it was never meant to be judged against, in the first place. See my above argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
This appears to be the fundamental point of the discussion. I don't care whether Kanon (2002 as well as 2006) is an adaptation of a game - all I care about is whether it is a good, reasonable, plausible story. Are we anime fans or marketing managers?
What is the point of your last question, again? I missed it entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Doll View Post
Thanks for making it absolutely clear to every reader of this thread that you consider yourself the only person on this earth to decide who's the "right" kind of fan.
No, thank YOU for putting words in my mouth, making me out to be worse than I am, and generally taking charge of an entirely unjustified smear campaign against me.

Last edited by Ascaloth; 2007-02-04 at 02:45.
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Old 2007-02-04, 04:08   Link #379
Skane
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Some of my thoughts on K02 and K06.

Okay, I think it can be safely said that K06 has done a better job of interleaving than K02. While the arcs are still largely standalone, KyoAni has taken some pains to give the impression that there is continuity between the arcs, even when one arc is over.

It has not been perfect, but it has been done better( compared to K02).

Due to the nature of their storylines, it would not be possible to have them progress in parallel and then have their five finales in the last episode. Not without drastically altering the very nature of their plot.

I believe they intended to show that the five arcs are not occurring in five different dimensions, and that they are all happening in the same world. If we take this in mind, then KyoAni has been doing a relatively fine job here. There are some faults, but it has been a better job than what happened in K02.

Makoto is one example. After she disappeared in K02, she really disappeared from the minds of everyone and the way K02-Yuuichi was portrayed in the subsequent episodes, it was as though he had a sudden memory regression and totally forgot about her existence.

NOBODY would remember/acknowledge Makoto's existence until Mishio in the Kazahana Special.

If anybody wants to claim that Makoto and her storyline was treated better in K02, I am going to point my finger at that person and laugh uncontrollably. Okay... maybe not publically, but I will be laughing in my space.

When it comes to Makoto's arc, KyoAni has done a superior job. Unfortunately, the love applied to Makoto's arc may have come at a price( ironically). It is not uncommon to read/hear comments that KyoAni may have spent too much time on Makoto's arc.

Setting that issue aside though, it cannot be denied( unless one is deluded) that K06's version of Makoto's arc has been more enriching, more detailed, and more sympathising.

Yuuichi's role in Makoto's was very important, as the story revolves around Makoto's desire for Yuuichi. So one can't really fault the arc for focusing too much on Yuuichi, because that is what the story about. Mishio played an important role as an advisor to Yuuichi, but her importance to Makoto is not high.
~~~~ ~~~~

Mai's arc... okay, this one is pretty depressing for me. Neither version managed to animate Mai's arc in full. Yes, yes... I know. Ayu's fault. But still, it is pretty depressing to know that Mai's arc always seems to get the shortest end of the stick when it comes to Kanon-anime( don't give me that look, you Nayuki-fans you... K06 hasn't shown your beloved girl's arc yet ).

I am not fully satisfied with the content of both versions. Sadly, I don't think it is ever possible to animate Mai's arc in an anime adaptation unless they go for a 3-cour series( has any ero-game->anime adaptation EVER been made into a 3-cour or more series?), or take a gamble and make a Mai-centric 13-eppy( not bloody likely to happen).

Mai's arc is problematic in that most of the scenes occur independently from the rest of the girls. This was most glaring in Ep15( with Nayuki being the sole other girl... for 3 seconds... in a non-speaking role... in a flashback). Mai's arc was the longest in K02, but it still ended up being the most mangled, which speaks volumes about the amount of material in it, and the difficulty of making it interact with the other four arcs.

Still... K06 has one edge over K02 when it comes to Mai's arc. It has better internal consistency. Despite the missing content from the source material, K06's treatment of Mai's arc was still logical and there were no red herrings and minimal plot-hanging.

K06 also treated Mai better and showed that Yuuichi still remembers Mai from time to time in Shiori's arc, compared to K02 where she disappeared from the face of the Earth( along with Sayuri) and the mind of Yuuichi, until she reappeared in Europe in the Kazahana Special. Starting to notice a trend in K02?

Sayuri's dramatic saving of Mai in K02 was a nice touch, but it led to a serious internal inconsistency. The whole point of the Sayuri-mauling was that Sayuri suffered a serious injury. You don't just walk out of the hospital so soon after a mauling like that( with no visible injuries to boot). The timeframe just doesn't justify it. A complete Deus ex Machina if you will.

Hope saving Mai in K06 is not a Deus ex Machina as her powers have already been established and shown to the viewer beforehand. You may not like the idea of regenerative powers, but at least the story had the decency to explain its' existence. It also served to show that Mai had finally stopped her self-loathing.

Sayuri's importance in this arc has been watered down a fair bit, but they did at least show some of it in the form of the birthday organisation and the ballroom dance preparations. It seemed as though KyoAni has to decide what to include in Mai's arc within the limited episodes that they had to play with, and they chose to utilise the material that focused more on Yuuichi.

This is not necessarily a bad decision, as Yuuichi IS the principal character in Kanon. He is the common link for all five arcs. Yuuichi's importance in Mai's arc is also fairly high, as he is the main reason for her current issues.

He caused the problem, and now he has to take responsibility for solving it. In terms of plot progression, that it. Since Yuuichi himself doesn't know it until the finale. Still, in terms of plot points. He started it, and now he ends it.

So it is not a matter of placing over-importance on Yuuichi in Mai's arc, as he IS important. You can't rob Yuuichi's importance in Mai's arc and then claim it to be a plot improvement. That would be a plot regression.

Nevertheless, Sayuri's importance did get reduced. One of my main nitpicks for K06. I just want to say that there is nothing wrong with Yuuichi's importance in K06's version of Mai's arc.

He HAS to be important in Mai's arc. His history with her is the second-longest of all the girls, darn it! 10 years! Ayu's 7 years has nothing on Mai. Longest? Should be easy to figure out for yourself, unless you're neglecting her as well.
~~~~ ~~~~

I will hold comments on Shiori's arc until the end of next episode, as that may still be the wrap-up episode for Shiori's arc before they fully plunge into Nayuki's and Ayu's.

I don't really have much to say about Shiori's arc though, so you may need to find a Shiori-fan and ask for his/her opinion.

Cheers.
__________________

Last edited by Skane; 2007-02-04 at 04:13. Reason: Correction of Grammatical Errors
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Old 2007-02-04, 04:25   Link #380
Ascaloth
I don't give a damn, dude
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
If anybody wants to claim that Makoto and her storyline was treated better in K02, I am going to point my finger at that person and laugh uncontrollably. Okay... maybe not publically, but I will be laughing in my space.
No worries, Skane,



I'm pretty sure these girls are laughing along with you at the poor sod who would dare to claim that.

(P.S. This sig is simply t3h WIN. I can think of many other ways to use this. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Sayuri's importance in this arc has been watered down a fair bit, but they did at least show some of it in the form of the birthday organisation and the ballroom dance preparations. It seemed as though KyoAni has to decide what to include in Mai's arc within the limited episodes that they had to play with, and they chose to utilise the material that focused more on Yuuichi.
I believe there's also another reason for it; the Toei 2k2, as well as the manga, all focused on Sayuri's side of the story in their handling of the Mai arc. It certainly would make sense for the KyoAni executives to do something different for a change, and do the part of Mai's arc that has been so cruelly neglected thus far.
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