(L) Girls und Panzer

[Ithekro]

Black Forest Peak's 20 tanks and tank destroyers is not full identified yet (it is suggested that 18 of the 20 are known). Half are reported to be Pathers, with the rest being a mix of tank destroyers and Tigers (I and II). Mostly Jagdpanzer IVs, but at least one each of the heavier tank destoyers (Elefant, Jadgpanther, and Jagdtiger).

They likely have only one of each of these heavies, but might have a second Tiger I. They might also have some Panzer IIIs from the previous year. Or just more Jagdpanzer IVs (3 were spotted it I recall).

It might be possible to identify the tanks from the large viewing screen the audiance has, but I can't make out such tiny print if it is there.

[Top Sergeant]

Visually I really like the lines of the Jagdpanther, and I thought they did a good job with what they showed.

After accounting for the Panthers, Tiger, Tiger II, Elephant, Jagdpanther and Jagdtiger you could resonably fill out the ranks with Jagdpanzer IVs, there were a LOT of those in the hanger shot prior to the battle. (Which should make that 5 Jgdpz IV)

[wontaek]

WE have many knowledgeable people here, so I wonder how some will answer my question.

---assumption---
(1) We will be in Senshado setting, thus at the beginning of battle, all tanks will be in working order, and since the event won't likely to last more than a day, you don't have to worry much about wears and tears
(2) Furthermore, since we can assume all parts to be in top condition before the match starts, you need not worry about mechanical failures just from moving around. Mechanical failure may occur if your tank gets hit by something, bumps into something, or get stuck in rare very unfavorable situation.
(3) No need to worry about opponent using infantry as there is no infantry action in Senshado
(4) NO need to worry about mines as well. There is radio communication thrown in as Senshado bonus, even for tanks that originally didn't have one.

-----So under Senshado condition, Form your dream team of 10 tanks. You can mix and match tanks from any country as long as it is within debut date limit set by Senshado-----------
*** For those who would like bit additional challenge, throw in the condition that you can have only 1 tank or tank destroyer of certain type. This means that you can't field Two Tiger I tanks. We may treat Tiger I and KonigTiger ( Tiger II ) as different enough thus you can have a Tiger I and Tiger II, but not Panzer IV A and Panzer IV B , since those two may be considered too similar. You be the judge of what counts as similar enough or different enough. ***

Throwing this challenge out there since we may end up with situation that may look like this if Oarai teams continue to get steady stream of new tanks or if they form some kind of all star team out of all the teams we have seen so far for an international event that was mentioned.

[LoweGear]

Well, this is gonna be easy, if I want the best tanks available according to Senshado rules, and I'll designate their roles as well:

- Tiger II (long range fire support)
- IS-3 (breakthrough tank; yes, this tank is viable according to the rules)
- ISU-152 (overkill, though likely more for intimidation - carbon coating likely doesn't do well in defending against a tank getting its turret blown off it body, though if the KV-2 can make it into Senshado....)
- T26E4 "Super Pershing" (breakthrough tank in conjunction with IS-3; this would be the one with field expedient armor that was sent into combat in Dessau, an example of a lone prototype tank seeing actual combat)
- Centurion Mk.1 (Yes, this tank meets the Senshado rules; all-purpose attacker)
- T29 (can't forget one of my favorite tanks, using the 105mm for ranged fire support)
- A34 Comet (need medium tanks for mobility)
- 90mm M4 Sherman (Yes, this thing did exist, which was an M4 Sherman with an M26 Pershing turret and gun, which would've made it superior to the Firefly.)
- T-44 (to complement the Comet and Sherman)
- Pz.V Panther (to complement the above)
- M24 Chaffee (novelty tank, as well as light and fast recon vehicle)

If you want a real challenge, throw in a weight limit

[Cosmic Eagle]

ISU-152 is more than KV-2 style intimidation...unlike KV-2, ISU-152 is a deadly threat to any kind of armour in existence then

[EroKing]

[Panzerklein]

If I don't wrong, T29 was not completed before the WW2 end. Only 6 prototypes were bult after WW2, so T29 can't used in Senshado. ISU-152, I don't know if the model 1945 (a.k.a Object 704) meet the rule and can be used in Senshado?

[Myssa Rei]

Panzerklein: According to the wiki, the ISU-152 went into production from 1943 to 1945, so yes, it's definitely in, though I imagine that something that can BLOW THE TURRET OF A TIGER AND PANTHER would merit a critical eye from the judges.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Panzerklein

If I don't wrong, T29 was not completed before the WW2 end. Only 6 prototypes were bult after WW2, so T29 can't used in Senshado. ISU-152, I don't know if the model 1945 (a.k.a Object 704) meet the rule and can be used in Senshado?

Tanks that were in the design stage can still be used as well, with approval from the Senshado Association. That's mentioned in episode 10.5. It probably depends on how close they were to completing a working prototype.

[Myssa Rei]

Yeah, it's one of the reasons why many of us were joking about how it was very likely that Black Forest would field a Maus if it wanted to.

[Panzerklein]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Tanks that were in the design stage can still be used as well, with approval from the Senshado Association. That's mentioned in episode 10.5. It probably depends on how close they were to completing a working prototype.

So can we use E-75 in Senshado?
I sure we can use E-100 since it hull was completed and just wait for turret (can used Maus turret).

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Yeah, it's one of the reasons why many of us were joking about how it was very likely that Black Forest would field a Maus if it wanted to.

There is a completed prototyle Maus and 1 Maus hull without turret in 1944, it can be used in Senshdo, just Black Forest don't has it in armory yet.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Panzerklein: According to the wiki, the ISU-152 went into production from 1943 to 1945, so yes, it's definitely in, though I imagine that something that can BLOW THE TURRET OF A TIGER AND PANTHER would merit a critical eye from the judges.

But the model 1945 or Object 704 for short is only developed in 1945 and I don't know if there is prototype of 704 was built during 1945 yet?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Panzerklein: According to the wiki, the ISU-152 went into production from 1943 to 1945, so yes, it's definitely in, though I imagine that something that can BLOW THE TURRET OF A TIGER AND PANTHER would merit a critical eye from the judges.

It's a self-propelled assault gun which was the mainstay of late war Red Army SPG units. Saw extensive action in the drive through East Prussia all the way to Berlin. If the bloody Jagdtiger can go in, then it should be allowed too...it wasn't almighty after all. Drawbacks like low ammo capacity, heavy two part ammo, low rate of fire since the shells weighed 40-50+ kilos, lower accuracy due to lower muzzle velocity etc.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Panzerklein

If I don't wrong, T29 was not completed before the WW2 end. Only 6 prototypes were bult after WW2, so T29 can't used in Senshado. ISU-152, I don't know if the model 1945 (a.k.a Object 704) meet the rule and can be used in Senshado?

From my research, there were T29 pilot models completed prior to VJ-day, although they weren't ready until the following year. Even if they weren't, the T29 can be completed using parts prior to that date, so it counts. The T29 is admittedly a borderline case though, just skirting the edge of eligibility.

Originally Posted by Panzerklein

But the model 1945 or Object 704 for short is only developed in 1945 and I don't know if there is prototype of 704 was built during 1945 yet?

Why ask about the 704? The base ISU-152 itself is the only thing I mentioned, and it participated in combat on the Eastern Front from early 1944 onwards.

[Panzerklein]

Because the shape and gun of 704 is different from the original ISU-152, also ISU-152K was developed in 1956 so this K variant can be used in Senshado, back to 704, I don't know if that model can be used. BTW, ISU-152-2 can used BL-10, many WoT players know how strong of that gun. It will become the monster in Senshado.

[rocket]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Panzerklein: According to the wiki, the ISU-152 went into production from 1943 to 1945, so yes, it's definitely in, though I imagine that something that can BLOW THE TURRET OF A TIGER AND PANTHER would merit a critical eye from the judges.

I got the feeling re-watching the Pravda match that the fate of the 38(t) was supposed to hint at what happens to a tank that would normally get blown to shreds in sensha-do. The way it was tumbled over (despite the fact that it should have scrambled the student council) felt like the power was more than required to register a penetration, but the magical carbon coating being an immovable object left the whole tank no choice but to roll when presented with the IS-2's irresistible force.

You know... airbags are actually more plausible than the carbon coating so I'm just going to assume all tanks have been retrofitted with those as well to deal with cases like this. :-)

...

As for the Black Forest line up - uh... 10 Panthers?! Yikes. I thought I was already living in miniature overkill land with one platoon of Panthers, don't think I'm going to buy a second one anytime soon.

That's just too much firepower coming out of the woods! I think Black Forest gunnery standards must be dropping...

...

I dunno I feel like I've seen enough of Maho's actions to understand that she's really a kind sister who's sorry that Miho's estranged with their mother, but is just not a strong enough personality herself to stand up to mom - maybe because as the oldest she feels the stronger burden of leading the school's ideals?

[Ithekro]

Save that the 38(t) was hit by a T-34/85 (Nonna later switched to the IS-2).

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Well, this is gonna be easy, if I want the best tanks available according to Senshado rules, and I'll designate their roles as well:

- Tiger II (long range fire support)
- IS-3 (breakthrough tank; yes, this tank is viable according to the rules)
- ISU-152 (overkill, though likely more for intimidation - carbon coating likely doesn't do well in defending against a tank getting its turret blown off it body, though if the KV-2 can make it into Senshado....)
- T26E4 "Super Pershing" (breakthrough tank in conjunction with IS-3; this would be the one with field expedient armor that was sent into combat in Dessau, an example of a lone prototype tank seeing actual combat)
- Centurion Mk.1 (Yes, this tank meets the Senshado rules; all-purpose attacker)
- T29 (can't forget one of my favorite tanks, using the 105mm for ranged fire support)
- A34 Comet (need medium tanks for mobility)
- 90mm M4 Sherman (Yes, this thing did exist, which was an M4 Sherman with an M26 Pershing turret and gun, which would've made it superior to the Firefly.)
- T-44 (to complement the Comet and Sherman)
- Pz.V Panther (to complement the above)
- M24 Chaffee (novelty tank, as well as light and fast recon vehicle)

If you want a real challenge, throw in a weight limit

So, balance of long-range fire support, some breakthrough-exploitation combat tanks, medium mobility ones and a fast recon. I wonder how you can impose a weight limit for this that might make sense. Would appreciate some help about this. Any other takers or any one who think they have better combo ?

Also, would making additional constraint not to be that of weight, but of fair number of combat service be too much a burden? When I checked T-44, it is stated that it saw almost no actual combat during WWII. We would think T-44 is a good tank but it might have had a problem that would have came to light only in real combat situations. If we make the constraint be tanks that did manage to do some damage to the enemy and also did suffer some damage of its own during WWII, would that be too limiting? Having tanks that did have some combat records may give us better picture of what that tank was capable of as well as what were its problems in combat situation. As for the doing damage and receiving some, I imagine destroying more than 3 enemy tanks and having 3 or more of that tank lost to combat casualty should be good enough. This limit should automatically make only the tanks that were produced in good number be eligible, as well, while ruling out some more "exotic" ones. Also with more data to look, perhaps we can even discuss which Girls & Panzer character/team is best suited to operating that tank and what might be some typical tactic Miho, Darjeeling, Maho, Katyusha, or whoever the field commander would most likely use. -------- I guess I am suffering from a Panzer withdraw ---------------

[Random Wanderer]

Don't look at me, I'm no good with versatility. I recognize the value of it, but put me in a strategy game, for instance, and I'll just crank out a bunch of whatever I consider the best single combat unit to be and send them out to crush the enemy in force. If I were building a Senshado team, it would be solid Tiger IIs, all the way through.

[wontaek]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Don't look at me, I'm no good with versatility. I recognize the value of it, but put me in a strategy game, for instance, and I'll just crank out a bunch of whatever I consider the best single combat unit to be and send them out to crush the enemy in force. If I were building a Senshado team, it would be solid Tiger IIs, all the way through.

Even a noob like me can see that all Tiger II won't be a good idea. If I know that would be what I am facing, I would do my best to exploit relative "slowness" of Tiger II compared to some other faster tanks that have the guns to damage Tiger II.

[Ithekro]

I would think that it would be a mix of the average common forces with maybe a few less common tanks and maybe one exotic rare tank.

For Black Forest Peak I could see them fielding mostly StuG IIIs, Panzer IVs, and Panthers with one or two Tiger I and than maybe a Tiger II or Jadgpanther. They might mix things up with the use of Panzer IIIs, Panzer 38(t)s, Hetzers, and Jagdpanzer IVs


The Japanese team will be hard to play, though it would mostly be Type 97s I would guess.