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Old 2021-05-15, 19:18   Link #601
Decel
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Fun episode!

At this point I am lost as to what the parallel minds are doing and what effect it has in the hosts (mother than Ariel).
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Old 2021-05-15, 19:24   Link #602
kari-no-sugata II
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Originally Posted by TURI123456 View Post
but I still not get a few things... so if I understand you she doesn't care about the life of others so much but she still can understand it is a bad thing to murder someone for no real reason so, in the end, she not just going to kill people or others that could be intelligent "just because" (for example) she "wants to eat something"?
It's difficult to get the nuance quite right.

So to go back to my use of the term "chaotic neutral" - another way to see this is that she puts herself above society. She would think "heroes of justice" are idiots. If someone summoned her and asked her to risk her life to save the world in the name of justice or "for the suffering people" she'd probably kill them before they even finished their speech. Now, as we saw in ep 11, if she finds out that the world itself is in peril and that puts her in peril too then yes she'd definitely be highly motivated to do something about it, but that would be to save herself.

Where she can seem more evil is just how little it takes to get on her bad side, from a third party perspective. What some might consider a minor pretext can easily enough for her to kill. Attacking her is obviously more than enough. But so is burning down her nest... or anything that she feels tramples on her pride. To her, bandits would not really be any different to monsters - to quote Lina Inverse, bad guys have no (human) rights. Essentially, if she can justify an action to herself then she has no problems with just about anything.

There's a couple of other complicating factors going on that the anime has glossed over to a large degree. The net result is somewhat neutral though so I guess it's okay.

Is this the extent of Kumoko's personality? Well, if there's ever a second season there would be a lot more to her to find out.


Quote:
Thanks but I actually meant to the people that came after the mother and the child at the end of the episode.
It was perhaps a bit subtle but this was actually answered in the episode. When the guy came in to tell the local lord (Sophia's father) that Kumoko was healing the ill, that's what he meant. This wasn't about her healing 1-2 people, but people in general.



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Originally Posted by Decel View Post
Fun episode!


Quote:
At this point I am lost as to what the parallel minds are doing and what effect it has in the hosts (mother than Ariel).
We've seen that Mother is being weakened (her stats are decreasing). We've not seen any effect on Ariel yet.

Magic brains 1 and 2 are attacking (and weakening) Mother. Body brain is attacking Ariel.

Last edited by kari-no-sugata II; 2021-05-15 at 19:40.
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Old 2021-05-16, 01:05   Link #603
Eater of All
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Originally Posted by TURI123456 View Post
yes that my point, what the problem?
if her life is in real danger or she could find herself in one if she was left them alive, I maybe not like it but I agree she has the right to kill them and maybe it has to be the "right" thing for her to do because she in life or death situation or could find herself into one. but here she just kills someone that not dangerous to her at all and she believes so (even without know that) to prove my point even if I have TNT and I can use it, that not mean I can use it to do whatever I want with it. I'm not saying that Kumoko is a 100% evil that cares only about how she can do random destruction but she closer to be an evil-hero than a normal hero.
Not a problem, I think it's just that we have different moral standards. kari-no-sugata II calls Kumoko chaotic neutral and I see it similarly - she's neutral rather than evil. To me intent matters - if she kills for pleasure that's evil. Something like the human trafficking ring that Potimas set up I would consider evil. Neutral is more akin to a force of nature - you go sailing in a hurricane, you die, you go poke a wild lion, you die, you burn the nest of a spider monster, you die.

At a more general level, morality is also relative. We're humans so we apply human morality to things, and that's fine. But Kumoko is already past the point where she considers herself human. So saying things like "killing humans is bad", while certainly true when applied to humans, is almost irrelevant IMO when applied to Kumoko. Making humans extinct is not much different than making bee monsters extinct. We've _actually_ made plenty of species extinct ourselves, and to those species humans are already the epitome of evil. If they were alive to judge.

Just my musing, I am absolutely not trying to change your mind.
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Old 2021-05-16, 03:04   Link #604
scififan
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Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II View Post
It's difficult to get the nuance quite right.

So to go back to my use of the term "chaotic neutral" - another way to see this is that she puts herself above society. She would think "heroes of justice" are idiots.
Nah..she would disagree with you.

The only person that she has killing intention is that mage who destroyed her home, but she still suppresses her instinct.

From her Wakaba memory, she just wants to do nothing but playing game and enjoying highschool life.

Even she wants to be free, she is unconsciously manipulated by D, even it was not D's intention. She swears that she is not going to forgive D, but she cannot bring herself to hate D. So, she has this perplexing feeling.

Oka may plays some influence on her. Oka makes her study hard, but she only wants to hardly study. Maybe she wants to Oka realize that Oka's good intention will bring bad outcome. Still, she cannot stand to see the vampire girl getting in trouble. It means she still has some sense of Oka spirit shaped in her. You can say it is still her way to live free.

Maou may even plays greater influence in her. Maou has titles such as "human slayer" and "demon slayer". Maybe when her parallel mind invading maou's mind, and in term, the soul link is influencing her mind. Her ethic lesson is probably Trolley Problem, due to watching too many anime(sepcifically the show: "Fate, Stay with me tonight").

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Originally Posted by Eater of All View Post

At a more general level, morality is also relative. We're humans so we apply human morality to things, and that's fine. But Kumoko is already past the point where she considers herself human. So saying things like "killing humans is bad", while certainly true when applied to humans, is almost irrelevant IMO when applied to Kumoko.
In the mind of Kumoko, bandits cannot be considered as humans. So, Kumoko is more Punisher than Batman.

Also, bandits are thretening Sophia's parents. Kumoko has a second thought due to her "friendship" with her former classmate.
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Old 2021-05-16, 05:07   Link #605
TURI123456
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Originally Posted by Eater of All View Post
Not a problem, I think it's just that we have different moral standards. kari-no-sugata II calls Kumoko chaotic neutral and I see it similarly - she's neutral rather than evil. To me intent matters - if she kills for pleasure that's evil. Something like the human trafficking ring that Potimas set up I would consider evil. Neutral is more akin to a force of nature - you go sailing in a hurricane, you die, you go poke a wild lion, you die, you burn the nest of a spider monster, you die.

At a more general level, morality is also relative. We're humans so we apply human morality to things, and that's fine. But Kumoko is already past the point where she considers herself human. So saying things like "killing humans is bad", while certainly true when applied to humans, is almost irrelevant IMO when applied to Kumoko. Making humans extinct is not much different than making bee monsters extinct. We've _actually_ made plenty of species extinct ourselves, and to those species humans are already the epitome of evil. If they were alive to judge.

Just my musing, I am absolutely not trying to change your mind.

My problem with that line of thinking is that you give an excuse for everything that Kumoko does or can do just because she strong. if she decides to kill someone because his shadow blocks the sunlight, from her viewpoint she has a good reason to kill that human but it still a bad thing to do, and she probably agrees with that. so you just give her an excuse for every disproportionate reward that she can give.


about human and morality... what you said is principle true but when we kill beast or fish we can't talk with them and we can't understand them. here Kumoko understands what the humans said and why they do what they do and still do terrible things. and about the viewpoint you right but there are three unique in almost all the society, one of them is the taboo about killing someone else and that old taboo and global one.
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Old 2021-05-16, 07:26   Link #606
Tenzen12
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I don't think she did any "terrible" things. Well in past timeline, that is, but even Demon Lord action seems to be driven by necessity. Not saying Kumoko have same kind of morality as humans, but so far she didn't do anything that would label her as evil even by human standards.

Well, I think it is only matter of time though.
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Old 2021-05-16, 13:06   Link #607
kari-no-sugata II
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There's certainly some interesting morality discussions to be had in this series.

For example, almost nobody in this world would be willing to argue that Kumoko deserves the same rights as humans. Because she's a "monster". What about demons? Elves? Dragons? The Administrators? If there's not a level playing field, then how can any interactions be fair?
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Old 2021-05-16, 13:59   Link #608
kagato3
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Originally Posted by TURI123456 View Post
for what I understand in the light novel she attck to kill.
and I not say she attack them first I say she attack and kill someone that not deangers her at all for no real reason...
Actually no. She destroyed the fortress on reflex.
From the official novel translation.
Quote:
This isn’t a game, after all, so there’s no guarantee that monsters won’t leave their dungeons. Anyway, as soon as I escaped the labyrinth, the first thing I saw was a wall blocking my path. If monsters came out of the labyrinth, they’d be trapped by this wall, and the soldiers stationed there would take care of them. That was probably the idea, anyway. I assume the plan was something like that, since while I was staring up at the wall like an idiot, some soldiers attacked me. I instinctively reacted by setting off a ton of magic, and, well, here we are. Some arrows flew at me, too, so when I dodged ’em, I reflexively shot some Black Bullets at the archers, y’know? With just that, the archers and the fortress all came down in pieces! Boom! Oops! Well, time to play dumb. I have no idea what happened here. The fortress just collapsed in some mysterious freak incident. It had nothing to do with me.
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Old 2021-05-16, 14:50   Link #609
kagato3
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Originally Posted by TURI123456 View Post
My problem with that line of thinking is that you give an excuse for everything that Kumoko does or can do just because she strong. if she decides to kill someone because his shadow blocks the sunlight, from her viewpoint she has a good reason to kill that human but it still a bad thing to do, and she probably agrees with that. so you just give her an excuse for every disproportionate reward that she can give.


about human and morality... what you said is principle true but when we kill beast or fish we can't talk with them and we can't understand them. here Kumoko understands what the humans said and why they do what they do and still do terrible things. and about the viewpoint you right but there are three unique in almost all the society, one of them is the taboo about killing someone else and that old taboo and global one.
Kumoko doesn't know the language yet. Remember the administrator talked to her and she had no clue what he said. The anime cut that the demon lord attempted to talk to her and again had no clue what she said. D's translation is only for status and the voice.

The only people she killed have been hostile to her or those under her protection first.
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Old 2021-05-16, 15:27   Link #610
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To be fair, Ariel should be able to talk with her regardless... The Spider way. i.E. through pheromones and threads
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Old 2021-05-16, 15:58   Link #611
Tenzen12
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Question if Kumoko even understand spider way of communication.
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Old 2021-05-16, 16:57   Link #612
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Question if Kumoko even understand spider way of communication.
Well, she was able to tell that her mother wanted her to return to the dungeon, so maybe.
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Old 2021-05-16, 17:30   Link #613
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Well, she was able to tell that her mother wanted her to return to the dungeon, so maybe.
That was less a communication and more an implanted thought in her mind compelling her to return.
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Old 2021-05-17, 17:00   Link #614
kari-no-sugata II
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^ While I think it's reasonable to mention things that the anime has clearly skipped, particularly on the world-building side, I'm trying to avoid discussing future events or character developments, even in spoiler tags.

I'm happy to discuss the series with anyone in private messages though, including major spoilers. Feel free to contact me that way if you're interested.
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Old 2021-05-17, 22:58   Link #615
scififan
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Actually no. She destroyed the fortress on reflex.
From the official novel translation.
Doesn't it sound like Houska Castle:: Gateway to Hell?

Houska Castle was built to defend the threat from underground.

Maybe it is jsut a blue curtain hypothesis.

The chronology of "Houska Castle" is:

Episode 10: Ronandt's party is assign to invesitage Great Laybrinth. They enter the dungeon through the castle.

They are puzzled by panic monsters in large scale migration. They somehow figured out that it is the war between Queen Teratect and a new monster known as Nightmare.



Episode 12: After defeating Araba, Kumoko finds the exit of Great Laybrinth, by tracing human adventurers that she has chased away.

Episode 13: At the exit, Kumoko is surrounded by castle walls and defending soliders.


Episode 6: Julius(occupation: yuusha) and the healer(occupation: seijo) ventures to Great Laybrinth through the castle gate.

They fight and kill white monser spiders known as Remains of Nightmare.
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Old 2021-05-21, 02:29   Link #616
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Episode 19 preview

Spoiler for Episode 19 preview:
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Old 2021-05-21, 10:57   Link #617
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Images
Turn out the Demon lord has been reincarnated in our world all along.
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

The company is probably wondering why so many people searched them on google today.
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Old 2021-05-21, 11:08   Link #618
TURI123456
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Spoiler for
Spoilers from Episode 19
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Sorry for my bad English, English isn't my native language.
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Old 2021-05-21, 11:29   Link #619
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good job to the mods for cleaning up the future content spoilers. This thread hopefully does not turn into something like the myanimelist threads which are a minefield of spoilers.
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Old 2021-05-21, 13:37   Link #620
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Ok, so Kumoko has now become a monster about where her mother was. She took about 70% of her stats so maybe even stronger. I'm not going to worry about the math on this one . So now really the only major threat is the Demon Lord. Who is going to steadily become less of a threat with body brain eating at her soul. I'm still going on the idea that body brain will actually just straight up take over Ariel's body and become her own character. Either that or Kumoko evolves into that same appearance and body brain gained enough autonomy to become the character that killed the hero.

The human side isn't all that engaging at the moment. I get the reincarnations aren't happy about the situation. But once they got into that world they turned into a resource to scramble over. They are lucky that the Elves don't seem to be doing much with them besides just hoarding them. But I get them being pissed off since they've spent most of their lives stuck there without any means to get out. Not like they can do much level grinding to get enough power to actually leave either.

Guess we'll see where this goes from here.
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