2013-09-21, 19:12 | Link #9301 | ||||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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That is the order of event. The shuttle didn't leave him behind while Kira still wants to follow Lacus. The shuttle left him behind after he gives up on following Lacus and moves away. |
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2013-09-21, 19:24 | Link #9302 | ||||
Goat Herder
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
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Okay, on a completely unrelated note, what the fuck do you keep doing to your posts, monster? There is no goddamn formatting whenever I quote them.
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Kira could've still argue with Lacus to let him stay with her once up in space, and still have Lacus tell him to return to the Archangel to keep it safe. Like I said--in the canon, Kira's actions are irrational, fueled by his emotions. They had to take the shuttle because they had no other fucking choice, because the Freedom can't achieve escape velocity on its goddamn own! Quote:
If the Freedom wanted to go to space on its own, it'd need nuclear thrusters rather than conventional rockets. The Freedom does not have nuclear thrusters, because if it did, Lacus and Meer and so many goddamn other people would be dead right now.
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2013-09-21, 19:40 | Link #9303 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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As far as the shuttle, it's still at least 3 times as big as the Freedom if not more. Enough room for Freedom to get on its back, fold up its wings and ride it up, using it's phase shift to ride out the heat. I mean if those little lifter things can support and MS's weight, the shuttle easily can. |
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2013-09-21, 19:48 | Link #9304 |
Goat Herder
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
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You... are not helping, Aquaman.
The Kusanagi at that point wasn't at escape velocity at the time, and the Freedom did not carry the Justice's weight (which, I might add, was lessened given the thrust of the Justice to help support that carry) the entire trip up into space. If the Freedom had tried that while it was reaching escape velocity, then it would almost assuredly get torn off. And as it stands, the Freedom and Justice's weight only increased the amount of work the Kusanagi had to do to achieve escape velocity, due to the extra weight they added atop its own. Furthermore, the Freedom putting its weight on the shuttle would've likely kept the damn thing in atmosphere and prevent it from achieving escape velocity. It'll throw off the shuttle's thrust-to-weight ratio when you add the extra 71.5 tons on top of it. And if it puts the thrust-to-weight ratio below one, then no amount of extra thrusters you add will help it achieve escape velocity--it will not happen. And what the hell's this about heat? Heat has no factor here, this is not re-entry we're discussing.
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2013-09-21, 20:05 | Link #9305 | |||||||
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2013-09-21, 20:39 | Link #9306 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Well considering Kira says he wants to go and Lacus acts like he is indeed able to do so there are only two options.
1. He was planning on latching on somehow and riding up with them. 2. Freedom can get to space on its own. Since 2 is largely out 1 is the only other option. |
2013-09-21, 22:13 | Link #9307 |
Dark Energy
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: United States
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Alright, people. Let's put an end to this once and for all, because I'm sick of it, and you've all forced me to actually do math I had no intention of doing today but certain people being stupid have forced me to. And because a certain someone is insistent escape velocity by itself doesn't matter, we'll work with something that does.
So, assuming a perfectly ideal mass ratio on the Freedom and that miniaturization let us get equal performance in the Freedom as the massive rockets the Saturn V used during take of, we get the basic deltaV budget for the Freedom (assuming its propellant tanks are completely full.) Code:
Δv = Ve * ln[R] Δv = 3,000 m/s * In[4.95] Δv = 4,798 m/s where Δv = craft's total deltaV capability (m/s) Ve = exhaust velocity of propulsion system (m/s) R = craft's mass ratio ln[x] = natural logarithm of x, the "ln" key on your calculator Code:
Δesc = sqrt[ (2 * G * Pm) / Pr ] Where: Δesc = deltaV to escape Earth's orbit (m/s) G = 0.00000000006673 or 6.673e-11 (gravitational constant) Pm = planet's mass (kg) Pr = planet's radius (m) sqrt[x] = square root of x Code:
Δesc = sqrt[(2 * 6.673e-11* 5.97219e24) / 6.371e6] Δesc = 11,190 m/s Code:
Δvo = sqrt[ (G * Pm) / Pr ] Apg = A / gp Δvd = Δvo / Apg Δtvo = Δvo + Δvd + Δva where: Δvo = deltaV to lift off into orbit (m/s) G = 6.673e-11 (gravitational constant) Pm = planet's mass (kg) Pr = planet's radius (m) sqrt[x] = square root of x Apg = acceleration of craft in terms of planetary gravities A = craft's acceleration (m/s2) gp = acceleration due to gravity on planet's surface (m/s2) Δvd = deltaV to counteract gravitational drag (m/s) Δtvo = total orbital deltaV (m/s2) Δva = deltaV to counteract atmospheric drag (m/s2) Code:
Δvo = sqrt[ (G * Pm) / Pr ] Δvo = sqrt[ (6.673e-11* 5.97219e24) / 6.371e6 ] Δvo = 7909 m/s First, we calculate gravitational drag. Let's assume a stupid ridiculous acceleration of 20 G, and that Kira could actually survive that. Code:
Apg = A / gp Apg = 20 / 9.81 Apg = 2.04 Code:
Δvd = Δvo / Apg Δvd = 7909 / 2.04 Δvd = 3877 m/s Code:
Δtvo = Δvo + Δvd + Δva Δtvo = 7909 m/s + 3877 m/s + 610 m/s Δtvo = 12396 m/s Code:
Δv = Ve * ln[R] Δv = 3,000 m/s * In[4.95] Δv = 4,798 m/s
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2013-09-21, 23:00 | Link #9310 | ||
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So, regardless of how bad you think the math/science is, there is only one in-story conclusion: That Kira would've been able to take the Freedom to space had Lacus agreed. |
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2013-09-21, 23:05 | Link #9311 |
Goat Herder
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
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Did you just seriously ignore all of that, monster? For the sake of your own convenience?
They likely didn't point it out to him because all three of them knew it was impossible. It was a mobile suit, not a fucking rocket ship. And again, if it could, it'd cause a huge storyline inconsistency! So either you're ignoring that, or you're lying when you said you'd be against such large inconsistencies. This is why no one likes a debate about a SEED problem when you get involved. To you it's not a goddamn problem.
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2013-09-21, 23:13 | Link #9312 | |||
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It also assumes that the Freedom only has a deltaV of 4,798 m/s, which I'm not going to argue over either, as we don't have any info regarding that. So it's pointless for me to address that. Quote:
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2013-09-21, 23:19 | Link #9313 | ||
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...Or cared, for that matter. o.O Quote:
Seriously, that's the show. It's also what Orks do. And the Freedom isn't even freaking red.
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2013-09-21, 23:23 | Link #9314 |
Goat Herder
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
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It wouldn't be much of a big glaring impossibility if he used something else to get him into space, like the booster they used for the Strike Rouge. The Freedom simply can't get up there on it's own. It is a mobile suit designed for war. ZAFT designed it to destroy enemy mobile suits, not to make trips back and forth between Earth and space. All of its functions were geared towards combat speed, maneuverability, and heavy cannon weaponry. If ZAFT wanted it back into space, they'd load it up into a mobile suit cargo container and fucking launch it up there with a mass accelerator.
It cannot latch onto the shuttle because it'd only prevent the shuttle from getting to space. If it didn't just kill the shuttle in the process. If it could do so on its own, they would've had Kira take Lacus up there safe and sound without risking her life stealing a ZAFT shuttle from Durandal's own Lacus impersonator. Storywise they could've shut down the same argument they had between the Freedom and the shuttle--that much won't really change. The Archangel's crew would have done what it could to keep Lacus safe, you KNOW that. That means if the Freedom had the deltaV budget to accomplish the trip and escape Earth's gravitational pull, IT IS A MASSIVE INCONSISTENCY IN THE STORY. Stop trying to deny the reality of the situation just because someone pointed out that Destiny was flawed in its depiction of the scene. This is beneath you and it's beneath us and it's a fucking disappointment that you'd go this low.
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2013-09-21, 23:43 | Link #9315 | |||||||
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2013-09-21, 23:52 | Link #9317 |
Goat Herder
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 36
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The Freedom might've been upgraded in the interim between SEED and Destiny? If it had, monster, it would've been fucking mentioned. So no. It wasn't.
The Archangel is more capable of protecting itself for a few days now than it had been in SEED, as it could submerge itself and from there wrecked any sea-going or air-going vessel using missiles and railgun fire. As it was also upgraded for underwater travel, it was likely armed with torpedoes for such an event. As such it is capable of protecting itself from ZAFT forces, as only the EA had any heavy-duty underwater use mobile suits. And furthermore, NOTHING WAS HUNTING IT AT THE TIME. If they needed to take the Freedom into space for a few days for a human cargo delivery, they could've just had it stay low underwater for a while. Lacus wasn't concerned with the Archangel being attacked in the interim. She was concerned with the Archangel not having the Freedom for an extended period of time while Kira was busy protecting her. There is a difference. And again, if Kira, once he had Lacus in space, argued to let him stay to protect her, she would've just sent his ass packing back down to the Archangel. So it is. A big. INCONSISTENCY. If the Freedom was capable of getting into space under its own power. You are arguing that it could, and thus arguing that a huge inconsistency presented by the show is the "right", when you yourself have stated you'd be against such a thing. So either you are blinding yourself to the reality, or you are lying. Which is it?
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2013-09-21, 23:59 | Link #9318 | ||
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2013-09-22, 00:19 | Link #9319 | ||||
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The same thing here. Kira just acted on the fact that he could follow Lacus with the Freedom and showed how he was able to catch up to the shuttle and kept up with it easily. The implication is there. Not everything has to be specifically stated, Rising, remember? Quote:
Also, the other reason why Kira was able to stay with the Archangel is because Andrew promised him that he would protect Lacus. If Kira had gone alone with Lacus, Andrew wouldn't have been with her. So there is no inconsistency. Even if the Freedom could take her, Lacus would still go with Andrew on a shuttle. Quote:
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mecha, seed it and weep |
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