2012-07-26, 09:41 | Link #601 |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
|
While in a way understandable why Nolan did that out of respect for Ledger, but i also agree with James0246 that it made the 2nd movie inconsequential except for the parts with Harvey Dent and Rachel. (and even that was questionable, because this movie didn't need to mention their deaths if it weren't for the 2nd movie)
|
2012-07-26, 10:09 | Link #602 |
Senior Member
Artist
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Normandy SR-2
Age: 29
|
I don't think it made TDK inconsequential since so many major events in TDKR were influenced by what the Joker did, such as the whole Dent conspiracy and Batman being out of action for so long; the whole "peace time" thing. We all know who was responsible for all these, but in the movieverse, no one really clearly does except for Bruce and Gordon, because everything happened in such chaos - so why would it be essential to mention the Joker's name? It's not like Bruce or Jim would suddenly feel like bringing him up again (Gordon doesn't even have anyone to talk to about it). Why, actually, is it so important to TDKR's plot for the Joker to be mentioned? I personally don't get a lot of people's sentiments towards this, although I do respect that they can have their own opinions. I just got annoyed when rabid Joker fanboys went crazy over the issue, and how so many negative reviews for TDKR pretty much say "the Joker's not in it, so it's not as good as TDK, therefore it's not a very good movie".
__________________
|
2012-07-26, 10:16 | Link #603 | |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
|
Quote:
|
|
2012-07-26, 10:19 | Link #604 |
うるとらぺど
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 44
|
The 3 movie is filmed in such a way that the viewers can choose to deem each title is it's own stand alone story since Nolan didn't planned to make a trilogy out of them.
For example, there's already a plot hole concerning The Joker in Begins as Gordon states explictly that The Joker had a record of conviction when he shows Batman the calling card at the end. But in TDK, the police had no idea who The Joker truly is as they had no records whatsoever on him. So does this means Begins has no links to TDK ? |
2012-07-26, 10:25 | Link #605 | |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
|
Quote:
Especially at the beginning, when there are details like for example these that you actually need to know from the previous movies -Why Bruce Wayne stopped being batman for 8 years. -Rachel's death (or who she even is, if you haven't watched the previous 2 movies) -the supposedly death of Harvey Dent caused by batman. (the letter made by Gordon was hardly detailed enough to know the actual reasons) -what the league of shadows is and who Ra's al Ghul is. |
|
2012-07-26, 10:40 | Link #606 | |
うるとらぺど
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 44
|
Quote:
To say watching TDK is essential to TDKR is likes saying you need to read every Batman Comics from the past 70 years to catchup on currrent events in recent issues. And in a way, TDKR might be better without knowing events in TDK because one will avoid the disappointment with the disappearance of The Joker. |
|
2012-07-26, 11:01 | Link #607 | ||
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
|
Quote:
-No explanation why Harvey Dent was supposed to be hero, the only thing mentioned in Gordon's letter was that he was not as good as people believed him to be and batman killed Dent because he endangered the live of Gordon's son. -Why batman took the blame for Dent's death - The scene in which Alfred said that he burned rachel's letter 8 years ago, doesn't explain anything between Bruce, Rachel and Harvey. - The only thing said about Ra's al Ghul was that he was the leader of the league of shadows and that's it. It was never mentioned why Ra's al Ghul wanted to destroy Gotham and the entire point of this movie was that Bane and Spoiler for spoiler:
These socalled hints are in my opinion references to the previous movies Quote:
|
||
2012-07-26, 11:10 | Link #608 | |
うるとらぺど
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 44
|
But does the first-time viewers really needs to know everything ?
Quote:
|
|
2012-07-26, 11:21 | Link #609 | ||
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
|
Quote:
Quote:
As for understanding the current story of the batman comics, you really don't need 70 years of history to understand it. You only need knowledge from a select few arcs from roughly the last 5 years. |
||
2012-07-26, 11:33 | Link #610 | |||
うるとらぺど
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 44
|
Quote:
To counter your argument now without knowing the events in TDK. 1)Dent is shown as a hero because an Act was passed in his name that allows criminals to be put away. But we are shown that Dent was not a saint by the flashbacks. It's also mentioned that Batman "killed" him and took the blame just so Dent can be kept "clean" in the Public eye. 2) Was it ever mentioned that Rachel was in a relationship with Dent in TDKR ? We only need to know that she was a former love and wanted Bruce to retire as Batman, but everything is pointless now as she is "gone" 3) We only need to know the League of Shadow is a dangerous organisation and that Ra's is it's leader. We know Bruce killed him when he explicitly mentioned it and that is reason enough that a certain someone wanted revenge and did it doing Ra's dying wish. Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
2012-07-26, 11:44 | Link #611 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 38
|
Even if he may not have intended to do so from the beginning, it's obvious that by the time he was working on the second one, that he had the third in mind. Considering he wanted to use the Joker in it and all, and Heath died before Dark Knight was released, it'd be kind of hard to have not planned the third one already.
|
2012-07-26, 11:52 | Link #612 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
|
I can say that I managed to watch this film without having seen the previous two. There was enough backstory provided that it didn't matter...mostly.
Having watched a lot of the Animated Batman series helped as I could easily pickup on certain names and knew certain connections already.
__________________
|
2012-07-26, 12:01 | Link #613 | |||||
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And you actually know nothing about why Ra's wanted to destroy Gotham in this movie. Quote:
I only said you needed knowledge about the previous 2 movies, but you are using something majors as the history of batman (doesn't matter if it's the entire 70 years or a few years, it does not compare with 2 movies that doesn't even last 5 hours in total ) Last edited by hyl; 2012-07-26 at 12:21. Reason: typo letter, not latter |
|||||
2012-07-26, 14:31 | Link #617 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2012-07-26, 14:56 | Link #618 | |
The Dark Knight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 38
|
When people start talking about feelings and how Nolan sucks this and that and that he should've done what you've done, it sounds a lot like jealousy to me. Especially when it's made personal and I was merely pointing it out in general as I've noticed a lot of this since Batman Begins.
Quote:
|
|
2012-07-26, 15:17 | Link #619 |
Retweet Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ニュー・オーリンズ、LA
|
Well finally saw it and it was pretty good…Not phenomenal, not transcending by any stretch just good, so I guess that’s a tad bit disappointing but I still had fun for the most part….
Spoiler for Pros::
Spoiler for Cons::
Overall like I said, despite these gripes it was still good film…As a standalone not as much, but as a close to a trilogy absolutely. And while I do take issue with Nolan’s Batman being a quitter who retires every 5 mins it is refreshing to see one elsewhere Bat tale where the maniac psychopath hero known as the Dark Knight actually has a somewhat favorable ending that isn’t someone prying that suit from his cold dead hands. At the end of the day, I still feel like Batman Begins is the best of the 3 films personally. The origin story was the best ever, and it used its villains well. But most importantly it FOCUSED ON BATMAN, unlike DK (which was honestly Harvey Dent’s Downfall the movie) and DKNR (Which was more capsulating than it was heart-wrenching excitement)… Batman in the Tumbler for the first time jumping buildings in Gotham was more exciting than anything in the next two flicks to me (The Joker truck chase a close second if we’re talking big action pieces)… What I will give Nolan props on (besides making Batman tangible in a real world setting) is that he gave the world Batman’s most publicly unknown and real #1 Villain Ra’s AlGhul…While certainly not as antagonistic as the Joker, he has always been my favorite Batman villain and to have a trilogy where he basically serves as the overarching cloud to Batman’s creation, fall, and undying symbolization, was truly a treat for those familiar with how great this character is…He also clearly banged some hot assassin a$$ that gave him Talia… Laz-pit hot tub ladies^^… Anyways DKNR: 7.26 outta 10…
__________________
|
2012-07-26, 18:51 | Link #620 |
Senior Member
Artist
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Normandy SR-2
Age: 29
|
^ Yay, I'm not the only one who still likes Begins the most! I just thought it was more tightly plotted and I have a lot of favourite moments in it, that still hold up after repeat viewings.
To hyl though - is it really that important that TDKR is standalone? I know people who went and watched the first two in preparation for it because they were curious; they could also have checked out plot summariea beforehand, or watch the other two aftwerwards if they liked TDKR enough. I don't think it's something that really mars the quality of the film or anything. Also, I just know a lot of people that saw TDK (although I'd argue that Begins might be just as important to know before TDKR...)
__________________
|
|
|