2018-04-28, 08:40 | Link #224 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Finally watched Episode 5.
Absolutely amazing as always but I felt like they could've given more focus on the impact on Operation British. Don't get me wrong, the show did give a lot of focus on it, but given the sheer scale of the casualties involved, it would've been nice to see an actual POV from the Federation on Earth (we only get Zeon POV really). A real sombre moment among the survivors/politicians to reflect on the sheer cataclysmic scale of their loss. I mean, just imagine how much 9/11 affected US foreign (and domestic) policy and that was only a tiny fraction compared to this. The Federation must have been utterly appalled, not just at the casualties but at the fact that Zeon leaders weren't backing down. At this point Zeon lost all credibility. Would've been nice to have more of a POV into a Zeon supporters mindset and how they would come to terms with the colony drop. Have a scene devoted to them being barraged with fake news and Putin-esque propaganda and this show would've been an instant 10/10. I was a little bit peeved when Sayla said the Federation and Zeon were all the same. I appreciate that at the time she was under attack by thugs supporting the Federation but that just reeked of false equivalence. That said, I still felt extraordinarily sympathetic to Sayla. She's not lead an easy life but she's become an admirable woman nonetheless. It's such a damn same she gets shafted storywise after the One Year War. I was disappointed in Dolze. The fact that he played an instrumental part in Operation British is utterly unforgivable but it's made worse when he's able to go back to a family and pretend he's not the monster he is. He does show some self awareness, but I guess the guilt is just too much for him and he tries to justify the murder of billions of people in the most pathetic way possible. It's a much more interesting take on a genocidal monster than the one dimensional moustache twirling monsters you usually see though. i actually liked the guy before this episode. I also enjoyed the brief segway into Amuro's life in the prelude. I was surprised by how much of a gutsy punk Kai Shiden was back in those days. I always interpreted him as some privileged snivelly narcissist. Char didn't have much screentime this episode. I thought the previous episode didn't have much focus on him either compared to the others so it looks like this Loum Arc has shifted quite a bit in focus. I'm also hoping this means a One Year War remake.
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2018-07-29, 00:22 | Link #226 |
Operation sneaky sneaks
IT Support
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Hic et ubique
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The finale is finally out. Been a hell of a long wait, but it was definitely worth it: the combat sequences were amazing, and the human aspects of the war were explored in a satisfactory manner. There's also a pleasant surprise at the end.
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2018-07-29, 04:23 | Link #227 |
Black Steel Knight
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
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Beautiful ending and excellent beginning for the MSG saga. There are so many things I love about this last episode from showing how Tianem's anxiety failed him to capture the Zeon and seized victory (colony even though his fleet is fully capable of it) to the famous Revil's speech that encouraged the Earth Federation to fight further and not giving up (which, ironically, prolonged the terrible One Year War even more). All the big events that we only heard as background information in the original MSG are shown in their full glory and that post-credit fanservice is like a cherry on top of a magnificent cake. The UC fan in me is very pleased.
All in all, Gundam: The Origin is an excellent show. It's not without its flaws (like how some characters "overacting" to things), but the good far surpassed the bad. It now has joined the ranks of Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket and Gundam Unicorn as the trinity of "Best Gundam Entries" in the franchise for me.
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2018-07-31, 06:08 | Link #229 |
Black Steel Knight
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
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Nope. The surprise is a certain familiar thing from MSG after the credits.
Btw, I also love how this episode shows & explores M'Quve's character a bit more. He's not just a connoisseur of antiques (like what's seen in MSG), but also an expert historian. In fact, it's his love of Earth's history that Kycilia used to motivate him to be the commander of Zeon's Earth troops and occupation army.
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2018-08-01, 05:53 | Link #230 | |
New Age Badass
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Charlotte, NC
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2018-09-02, 04:35 | Link #232 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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That was a bad finale in all honesty.
Sorry but as much I wanted to like it, I don't think there's any way in getting round the fact that the entirety of this episode was spent on a build up and framing of Revil's speech. The build up I have no issue with, but the framing took a really questionable stance on this whole thing. Are we supposed to believe that peace talks would've been a good thing after Zeon's Operation British? We're talking about a colony drop that killed billions. Not thousands, not millions but billions. And they gassed their own supposed race to do it too. How do you negotiate with that? Who's to say that a piece of paper would stop them from doing it again and right on the heels of another Zeon military victory? Revil was right, it is basically surrendering. The narrative seems to treat what Revil did as a bad thing but he took a stand. Yes war is bad, but when faced against such a horrific enemy are you really so much of a pacifist that you can just stand back and appease people who will kill billions of people without any impunity? Even as a staunch left winger myself, I have a hard time understanding this. Given the Hitler reference in the Episode, are we also supposed to believe that the writer thinks the Allies were supposed to appease Hitler? Does the writer think that both the Allies and the Axis were equally bad? That's awfully convenient when it comes to considering Japan's role in the war but it's certainly not one I can agree with. And then Degwin has the audacity to declare the Federation as back stabbing warmongers? He did nothing but sit on his fat arse whilst his son committed cataclysmic genocide and refuses to raise any kind of hand against him. The hypocrisy is astounding and if the Episode framed it as such then I'd consider it great writing but it didn't: it was played completely straight. And if the Episode framed Revil in a shrewder light then I could've enjoyed this episode a lot more. The Episode just implies that Revil did exactly what Kycilia wanted but if Revil was framed better, he would've also understood what was happening and that he was being played by warmongers and could've told the public exactly that but most importantly argue for war anyway because sometimes you need to take a stand (and/or he could've had the foresight to know that Zeon will be hoisted by their own petard). That kind of framing would've been way better but instead the take away message was "war will continue because humanity is still foolish". The episode also suffered from an overuse of "moustache-twirling". We had to be treated with scenes like those Fed Generals smirking on how a cleaner warfare is more to their liking. Is that supposed to be a bad thing? What exactly is the writer saying here? Historically speaking the people who introduced these kind of rules were people who understood the horrors of warfare and sought to minimise it. It seems to me that this writer loves to take a conspiratorial view on everything and believes all things to be run by "moustache twirlers" and I don't see that as an accurate depiction of reality, especially for someone like myself who is a liberal user of Hanlon's Razor. What a shame that the finale had to end on such a terrible note. I was ready to declare this series one of my all time favourites but this Episode just left such a sour taste in my mouth that I don't know how to judge it anymore.
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2018-09-02, 07:07 | Link #233 | |||||
Black Steel Knight
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
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Here’s a video about Pre-Origin backstory about the Antarctic Treaty: Quote:
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Last edited by Obelisk ze Tormentor; 2018-09-02 at 07:24. |
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2018-09-03, 09:01 | Link #235 | |||||||
Black Steel Knight
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
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Sorry for the late reply. I had to work.
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As for why both sides finally agreed to sign the treaty, Wiki, again, said it best: Quote:
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Also, without excusing the terrible things that Zeon did, I just want to remind everyone about these points:
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Also, Origin has never shy from viewing something from different perspectives. For example, Zeon Deikun who always portrayed as this great philosopher and political leader in the flashback of MSG and other side-materials. Those are like the POV of outsiders looking in. Origin took a different approach by viewing Deikun from the POVs of his wife and children thus portraying him more as a under-pressured husband and father. Same thing with Revil’s speech: many other supplementary materials has depicted the speech as something heroic and uplifting but Origin chose a different POV. Origin use the POV of people who were not sure, people who dread the prolonging of the war and people who were laughing inside due to the satisfaction they felt when their devious plan went smoothly (at the time). But all that doesn’t really undermine how right Revil was. I myself don’t think it’s a problem. It just adds more realism in an otherwise Braveheart-like moment. Could they have made it better? Hell yes. Is the final product insultingly bad? Hell no. At the end of the day, does it matter whether or not Revil realizes the manipulation behind his escape when he independently got to the right conclusion and chose the right course of action at the end? I don’t think so. Quote:
EF and Allies are so unlike each other to the point where you can even compare the EF with WWII Japan. Like the Imperial Japan, the EF did some horrible things to other nations (eg. Pearl Harbor & Colony-oppressing) and they paid the price wholesale later on (Colony Drop & Hiroshima-Nagasaki) to the point where they felt driven to the corner and about ready to surrender. Revil’s speech is the turning point where the EF is no longer comparable to Imperial Japan. EF is now the post-Pearl Harbor USA and Zeon is now post-Pearl Harbor Imperial Japan. It’s smart how MSG actually reverse the order of the conflict between Imperial Japan & USA and used it as a background story where Amuro & Char fight with their giant robots . Quote:
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And no. I don't think the writers or Yoshikazu Yasuhiko meant is as an F-U to the Geneva Conventions. Maybe a little jab about its effectiveness (or lack thereof) but not an outright dismissal or disrespect.
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2018-09-03, 16:02 | Link #237 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Earth
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Sorry to interrupt the discussion, but I find it a great coincidence that I just finished the origin in 2 days. So allow me to join in
@Haak I don't think the episode means Revil makes the wrong decision by continuing wars against Zeon..I think, what this episode means, is the following: 1)Remember the whole series is kind of from Zeon's point of view 2)Degwin wants a truce, which from our point of view since we know all the events happening afterward, is the right thing to do to Zeon 3)But Gihren and Kycilia want to continue, so they let Revil to be free, as they know that Revil wants to fight on 4)Ironically, as we know, their plan will backfire, as Federation, now under Revil's advice, makes the most correct decision, which is to continue fighting As an audience who is always with EFF, I can't be happier when they let Revil go . Zeon could have gained so much more from the truce, but thankfully they make their own demise
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2018-09-03, 16:24 | Link #238 | ||
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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2018-09-03, 16:30 | Link #239 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Earth
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@Haak
Degwin at first only wants power...yes he eventually wants more but he does so at a very small pace..he keeps mentioning throughout the series how tiny Zeon is compared to EFF, so I won't be surprised that all he wants is independence and he would have achieved that goal had the truce been finalized Of course he would think Zeon could lose in the long run...remember he was in the frontline guarding an empty Zeon at the end of the battle, if not the EFF officer backed out, he could have become a space dust already XD only his son and daughter want Earth domination...at least, that's how I feel from this series
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2018-09-04, 11:33 | Link #240 | ||||||
Black Steel Knight
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
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Also, I don’t believe in bad writing when involving something this obvious. Tomino & Yatate were at their best when they wrote the background stories for MSG. That’s why this part of UC is often revisited because it’s rich, wellthoughout and stimulates the mind. Sadly, Tomino’s writing began to waver starting from Zeta. Quote:
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Second, a great deal of the massive civilian casualties of the colony drop came from the direct impact, the massive tsunami, and the diseases and famine that the tsunami caused when the main part of the colony hit Sidney. Third, if the colony drop went as Zeon planned, it wouldn’t hit Sidney and caused the massive tsunami that began the chain reaction of the major deaths of the innocents. Giant Tsunami can be a real nasty killer even after it’s long gone, I know coz my country suffered greatly from it back in 2004. You remove the tsunami and the human casualties will be greatly reduced. If the colony hit the Amazon River basin (where Jaburo located), the impact and damage to Earth will be much more isolated (coz no massive tsunami) and civilian casualties from the direct impact will be greatly reduced compared to when it hit Sydney. This is why the asteroid that Char sent to hit and obliterate Lhasa, Tibet wasn’t such a big deal when compared to the cataclysmic Sydney hit. Why? Because the ocean didn’t really play a part in the Lhasa hit. Therefore, significantly less/reduced impact. Well, the rest of the argument seems to be your problems with how the director/writer chose to execute & frame things which I can only say that I have no such problems. For example, Degwin’s actions weren’t really accompanied by hopeful or triumphant music. Many of the BGM is actually silent and/or ominous. Thus, I don’t think the episode (or the show in general) really take Degwin’s side. On the contrary, if you rewatch the very last part of Revil speech in the episode, it was actually accompanied by uplifting and hopeful music. Thus, I think the director/writer actually know their stuffs and know which is which when it comes to MSG. I mean, for god’s sake, Yoshikazu Yasuhiko has been deeply involved with MSG story since the very dawn of the franchise. Unlike Akira Toriyama, Yas knows the lore like the back of his hand. Characters have solid reasoning when it comes to the things that they do throughout Origin, but you seem to be more concerned about the people behind the scenes who might have “hidden agenda” and “disturbing messages” by how they frame and do the events in this episode. Well, I can’t say I agree. I can see where you’re coming from, but I also think that the “issue” that you brought up is not as big as you make it out to be. All that said, I’m pretty much okay with all this. People take away different things after they watch a feature and Gundam is no exception. Heck, Gundam is actually a good example of an anime where people can get different things from it. I mean, look at the fans. After watching the same early UC anime, they came out as either EF supporters, Zeon supporters or more on the neutral side. And by “supporters” I mean genuine supporters, not troll-supporters or LOL-supporters. They arrived to different conclusions even though they watched the same thing. Yeah, I know that USSR was part of the Allies. But if you insist then let's talk more about the timeframe of the USSR’s tenure as part of the Allies during WWII. And within that time-frame, I don’t think USSR was anywhere near as bad as EF. What are the worst things that the USSR did during that period? Is it as bad as having their general-tier officers being traitors and helping the Nazi to win massive battles with the Allies just for their own desires?
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