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Old 2013-11-14, 15:03   Link #33221
haguruma
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Or... the bomb simply exploded when Battler and Eva (and Yasu) "explored" the tunnels which killed the rest. Seems very anticlimatic, but why not?
That would explain some elements, but not Battler's intention to leave her with a wonderful lie over a painful truth...it would hurt, sure...but it doesn't seem to be worth all the effort that he appears to be putting into EP8

Btw. Erika rocked in chapter 20 of the EP8 manga...she basically solved EP5 and it is pretty much how I considered it, complete with vengeful Yasu and unwilling Battler accomplice. She also explains how he managed to sneak the non-existence of "the person X who can not be perceived by the Detective at the same time as Kanon" (as she calls it) by her in the beginning...though I really wanna wait for the Japanese Tankobon, since my Chinese is way too bad for this.
It's apparently connected to it never being fixed who the "18 people on Rokkenjima" that the first 4 games talk about are supposed to be.

Much nicer is how it is explained that apparently all of EP5 was actually part of the parents plot to lure Natsuhi out into the open and confess to Kinzo's death. They used the true murder culprit as an accomplice in their scheme, by creating a script for Battler to read when he called Natsuhi under order of the parents. The children, Genji and Rosa were in on the plan, while Krauss was kidnapped (likely by Genji) and murdered after the phone call in order to assure the security of the plan. The children were taken to the tunnels leading to Kuwadorian and likely killed there.

I also liked how they gave Erika much more incentive for her rage, because she starts going insane over doubting everyone, even her master (because it was under Bern's order that she concentrated only on Natsuhi).

I love her final attack on Battler, when she basically says that the Golden Land is nothing but a fancy word for death and that happiness is just a colorful word, while true happiness is impossible for them. And that is followed up by her telling him that Ange will read the Book of the Single Truth and will despair.

Oh yeah...it also more or less hints at Meta-Ange being part of the Hachijo Toya books when we see a switch from Featherine and Bern, talking about how they grow weary of waiting for an answer but want to leave it to Ange, to Ikuko and the cat in her office, with her commenting that the story of Ange's decision is not yet finished.
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Old 2013-11-15, 09:54   Link #33222
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I'm pretty sure that Yasu didn't actually kill anyone - she merely attempted to claim responsibility by throwing her scripts into the sea. That seems to fit better with episode 7 than her being an evil murderer.

In addition, an interpretation where she kidnaps Battler would make her the unambiguous villain of the story, and it seems unlikely that she wouldn't be revealed in that case.
I'm prone to think Yasu wasn't the murderer in Prime but I seriously doubt she tried to take responsibility for something she didn't do in that way.

First, tossing the bottles in the sea meant they might have gone lost and no one would hear 'her confession', making it pointless.

If the first bottle was really found by the police short after the incident this means as soon as the incident happened she started writing a huge amount of text in a really short time and then she got rather lucky as the police found it pretty soon.

If the first bottle wasn't found by the police short after but the police was bribed into claiming they had found it, and the same happened for the sailor who found the other one it would be pointless to confess so late. The fact had been declared an incident and without the message bottles gossips would have likely died sooner.

The 'confession' implying that there was a serial murder raises more interest toward that idea than toward the idea of an incident as assumed by the police.

The fact that there are different confessions invalidate them.

The fact that the different confessions don't match with the truth (Eva dies pretty early on) also make the police think they were an attempt to cover up what Eva did. They couldn't prove Eva wrote them but they could have thought Eva had someone write them for her... though they had no idea who.

The confessions don't say out loud: I did it, not Eva. They place the blame on a witch, something the people's not going to believe easily.

Yasu has no reason to take responsibility for Eva. She didn't like her much, nor she liked Ange and if she wanted to live on her own, hidden from other people's eyes this attempt might have given someone the way to find out about her. This way to 'confess' causes people to focus more on Rokkenjima when they might have forgot it.

The Visual novel says why Yasu did it and there was nothing as 'covering up for Eva' involved. She wanted someone to understand her heart and she tosssed them in the sea because she thought it would be fun as she loved 'Ten Little Indians'.

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Originally Posted by PsychoShion View Post
The whole Beatrice=Ikuto=True human monster culprit.


But isn't the climax of Arc 3 where Beatrice almost has us all fooled into believing she only has good-will in her heart? She tricks the reader and everyone LOL!

Don't you think this is very similar when we reach Arc 7 and "Yasu's Story " is told. Do we let her believe that because we now know the WHOLE story we finally understand the truth and don't see her as an EVIL HORRIFIC WITCH.

I think the whole Yasu=Ikuto thing isnt too hard to believe even if you have to consider that "Beatice" is totally evil just like we have seen from the beginning.

Wasn't that the whole point? Do we let her win?


Remember just to make sure that Arc 7 is mostly Bernkastel's version and that is what might be truly horrifying about it, its just a total lie to sucker you. Also Featherine and Bernkastel are up to monster stuff.

I doubt an innocent Yasu could be a true partner in crime with them but i believe the Beatrice we know is plenty. She is a monster.

Why do you guys try to go around so many circles to not see that IKuto=Beatrice =REal monster. The end of 8 shows she is the mastermind and evil being of this tale and manipulates everything so her image is how she wants it and when.

Why shouldn't it be? This is her Story. She is the Author.

Isn't this suppose to be the worst of HUMAN-TRICKS? Its easier to say a "Witch" did these things than to believe a human is this EVil without calling them a MONSTER?
I'm not sure Yasu is a real monster in Prime. Ryukishi implied the blame of the incident is probably something that should be placed on the adults, not on Yasu.
A completely different matters are the gameboards where Yasu has no qualms to murder people... but piece Yasu is more like a dark Mary Sue, not PrimeYasu.

Said all this I don't think Yasu was the best person ever. She likely wasn't as kind and pure as we might be lead to be. Due also to her sad past she wanted to believe she was/would become better than anyone else, places the blame on her lack of ability to get along with the servants on the servants only (only she didn't have friends at the Fukuin too so she likely wasn't good at social relations), as a child she liked to tease Battler along with Jessica and she played pretty ugly pranks to people. If Kanon is to be taken as a representation of her darkest thoughts she didn't really have the best feelings toward everyone else and here and there she acted pretty self centered, dreaming for others to save her but doing next to nothing to save herself.

All this however doesn't turn her into a monster, just into a normal human being with her strong and weak points. No one in Umineko is perfect, everyone has some sides of his characters that are unpleasant.

From here to turn into a monster though... I think there's a long way to go.
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Old 2013-11-15, 12:20   Link #33223
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I'm prone to think Yasu wasn't the murderer in Prime but I seriously doubt she tried to take responsibility for something she didn't do in that way.
I wouldn't be surprised if the idea with the cover up actually only happened over the course of the weekend and there was no real plan by Yasu to do anything sinister...
I mean, think about it...if it wasn't for the fact that everybody is dead, the money for the people would be a pretty sweet thing and sending them to a fake address isn't that surprising considering it's not exactly 100% legal money. Maybe it really was just Yasu saying thank you for everybody playing along in a big game.

That could also explain why Rudolph and/or Kyrie got a letter and how that connects to Ange being left at home. Her not being that fond of the witch idea might blab out stuff that is supposed to be secret and might ruin the whole game, so maybe Yasu actually asked for her to be left out of the game.

I could see Yasu being blind and stupid enough to pull something like this and leaving her plan wide open to be highjacked any moment.

I also managed to work through chapter 20 of the manga a little more and Erika's EP5 solution is pretty much the "shit got highjacked idea" though it's the other way around.
Spoiler for Erika's manga solution to EP5:
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Old 2013-11-15, 20:18   Link #33224
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if the idea with the cover up actually only happened over the course of the weekend and there was no real plan by Yasu to do anything sinister...
I mean, think about it...if it wasn't for the fact that everybody is dead, the money for the people would be a pretty sweet thing and sending them to a fake address isn't that surprising considering it's not exactly 100% legal money. Maybe it really was just Yasu saying thank you for everybody playing along in a big game.
Yes, in Prime it can very well be that Yasu wasn't planning anything bad.
After all in a way Ep 7 hinted this with the Lion's murder case. There's no Yasu planning to murder someone there for sure but the murder happens anyway, despite Yasu and Battler not being present. Can this be a hint they weren't really that determinant in the murdering?

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
That could also explain why Rudolph and/or Kyrie got a letter and how that connects to Ange being left at home. Her not being that fond of the witch idea might blab out stuff that is supposed to be secret and might ruin the whole game, so maybe Yasu actually asked for her to be left out of the game.

I could see Yasu being blind and stupid enough to pull something like this and leaving her plan wide open to be highjacked any moment.
Realistic enough. Actually it'll be interesting if she left Ange home because she met Ange as Beatrice but was afraid Ange wasn't tricked as Maria and could tattle out things... but we already know Ange talked about magic with her mother so maybe she already did tattle out things so Kyrie is sort of prepared...

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I also managed to work through chapter 20 of the manga a little more and Erika's EP5 solution is pretty much the "shit got highjacked idea" though it's the other way around.
You're awesome and my official hero!

Spoiler for Erika's manga solution to EP5:
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Old 2013-11-15, 20:56   Link #33225
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I guess it does make more sense that Yasu hurled her scripts into the sea before the mystery night began in the hope that someone might be able to understand her. I was thinking that she perhaps decided to throw them into the sea after the actual murders began, but that doesn't really work now that I think about it.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
That could also explain why Rudolph and/or Kyrie got a letter and how that connects to Ange being left at home. Her not being that fond of the witch idea might blab out stuff that is supposed to be secret and might ruin the whole game, so maybe Yasu actually asked for her to be left out of the game.
That would be part of it, but she also probably knew Rudolf was the only one with the power to make Battler come back. I think the primary aim of the murder mystery night (other than possibly to find another headship candidate by encouraging everyone else to have a go at the epitaph) was to test and see if Battler would remember his sin, and him not being there would kindof totally invalidate that.

The events may also have had secondary goals:
- Legend: to try and teach Natsuhi a lesson about pride, and see if she would be able to swallow it and admit to her sin when faced with a tough situation
- Turn: to try and make Rosa realize how poorly she'd been treating Maria, and see if she could make their relationship better
- Land: from episodes 4 and 6 I'd guess it would involve a test of George and Jessica to see if they do really love Yasu. Maybe it would also teach Eva a lesson or something

Under this theory Yasu it still largely responsible for the tragedy (her ill-considered plan created the situation that led to the murders and her message bottles created the cat box that tormented Ange) but she didn't intend for it to happen.

e: Thanks very much for the translation of the episode 5 solution.

Last edited by Leafsnail; 2013-11-15 at 21:11.
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Old 2013-11-15, 21:40   Link #33226
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I guess it does make more sense that Yasu hurled her scripts into the sea before the mystery night began in the hope that someone might be able to understand her. I was thinking that she perhaps decided to throw them into the sea after the actual murders began, but that doesn't really work now that I think about it.
Well, she should have had them ready prior to the start of the mystery. After all it's said many times she worked on the game she wanted to play with Battler, thinking many scenarios so it's possible to assume she wrote many 'whatever of the golden witch'. Tossing them after the murders began would have been unnecessary risky as she could be discovered.

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That would be part of it, but she also probably knew Rudolf was the only one with the power to make Battler come back. I think the primary aim of the murder mystery night (other than possibly to find another headship candidate by encouraging everyone else to have a go at the epitaph) was to test and see if Battler would remember his sin, and him not being there would kindof totally invalidate that.
I don't think she really had to encourage them. Ep 7 says everyone was trying to solve it already. If she hires them as accomplices with the 'Kinzo is dead' info, they also know that 'solving the epitaph' would mean nothing as without Kinzo to acknowledge them as heads they wouldn't manage to be recognized as such just because they solved the epitaph and without Krauss they can't even convert the gold, which they can't declare to own as its illegal gold.

So, solving the epitaph loses sense once you know Kinzo is dead and that it would be troublesome to convert the gold into cash.

I think the one she wanted to encourage at best was Battler. The epitaph serves mostly to create the setting in which the murder game is played but for the adults what really matter is the money they can get from Yasu, not the gold.

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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
The events may also have had secondary goals:
- Legend: to try and teach Natsuhi a lesson about pride, and see if she would be able to swallow it and admit to her sin when faced with a tough situation
- Turn: to try and make Rosa realize how poorly she'd been treating Maria, and see if she could make their relationship better
- Land: from episodes 4 and 6 I'd guess it would involve a test of George and Jessica to see if they do really love Yasu. Maybe it would also teach Eva a lesson or something

Under this theory Yasu it still largely responsible for the tragedy (her ill-considered plan created the situation that led to the murders and her message bottles created the cat box that tormented Ange) but she didn't intend for it to happen.

e: Thanks very much for the translation of the episode 5 solution.
The real problem is: did a mystery game orchestrated by Yasu even happened in Prime? And if it did, did it happened in a similar way to the ones in the games (with someone believing someone else is dead) or were they all aware they were playing 'Clue' as an Halloween game and while the children were playing an argument broke among the adults?

The gameboards were written as a game she wanted to present to Battler but we don't know if she wanted to hand him the written version or roleplay it with him unaware it was a game or make him aware of it.

And anyway, even if she was roleplaying a murder game with Battler unaware it was only a game, unless someone went into panic mode and started a murder rampage, I find hard to see her as largely responsible for what had happened.
If she was just a girl organizing a game and someone else decided to go on a murder rampage taking advantage of her game without her knowing... I don't feel much like blaming her as she was unaware of the adults' intentions.

--------------------------------------

On an unrelated note now I think the phonecall Battler made to Jessica was to 'hire her' in the 'prank' against Natsuhi. Battler was likely hired by his relatives and the same applies to George and Maria. The phonecall was likely done to involve Jessica among the accomplices in an innocent way. Maybe she was told the murder idea was something Battler planned to... let's say scare Shannon.
Later on when Rosa joins the cousins and the plan starts Jessica might have thought their parents agreed to it as Rosa was an adult and involved in the game so she might have played along in the belief her parents agree.
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Old 2013-11-15, 22:18   Link #33227
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I guess you're right about the epitaph.

I am pretty sure the mystery game happened on Prime. It fits well with the bribes, the strange stories that Yasu wrote and the heavy prominence of fake murder plots in episode 5 and 6.

The question then becomes "who was in on it". I think the answer is probably everybody except Battler and 'the detective' for that story (and perhaps to some degree Maria, who wasn't aware that the murders were fake but who was assured that everyone would come back to life at the end anyway). So if she decided to run Legend on Prime, everyone would be in on it except Battler and Natsuhi.

Under this scenario, it's possible that the "detective" made a wrong inference and ended up killing someone because they thought they were the culprit (say) causing a mass panic. Or perhaps they mistook the conspiracy against them for something more sinister than it actually was. Or maybe Yasu dangling gold in front of everyone's faces made them become greedy.

I agree that Yasu is largely forgivable in this theory, but she could probably have realized that putting such highly strung people in this situation may have had terrible consequences.
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Old 2013-11-15, 22:51   Link #33228
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
I am pretty sure the mystery game happened on Prime. It fits well with the bribes, the strange stories that Yasu wrote and the heavy prominence of fake murder plots in episode 5 and 6.
Well, it's implied in Our Confession that the accomplices were often if not always lead to believe the murders were fake... even when they weren't.

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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
The question then becomes "who was in on it". I think the answer is probably everybody except Battler and 'the detective' for that story (and perhaps to some degree Maria, who wasn't aware that the murders were fake but who was assured that everyone would come back to life at the end anyway). So if she decided to run Legend on Prime, everyone would be in on it except Battler and Natsuhi.
Maria might also believe the murders are fake. In Ep 3 she might have realized Yasu really killed her mother and then rebelled to her, ending up killed. And in Ep 5 & 6 she agrees to fake her death.
If there was a game it's likely the detective was supposed to be Battler as Yasu wanted him to solve the mystery.

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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Under this scenario, it's possible that the "detective" made a wrong inference and ended up killing someone because they thought they were the culprit (say) causing a mass panic. Or perhaps they mistook the conspiracy against them for something more sinister than it actually was. Or maybe Yasu dangling gold in front of everyone's faces made them become greedy.

I agree that Yasu is largely forgivable in this theory, but she could probably have realized that putting such highly strung people in this situation may have had terrible consequences.
I don't think the gold is a real problem because again, without Krauss' help no one can touch it. However they could have ganged up on Yasu to forge her to convert it in gold as she too was apparently capable to do so. But this would have required Yasu to stay alive.

It can be the gold had became a problem if Krauss did the same he did in Ep 5 pr 7. But again, in Ep 5 he kills no one and in Ep 7 he was Yasu supportive and the first murders were actually incidents.
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Old 2013-11-16, 02:09   Link #33229
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
LOL, symbolically speaking I wonder if Erika represents someone. It was speculated Battler/Tohya and Ikuko didn't write end together... so maybe Erika represent Ikuko? or Ange? It's interesting how she uses some English sentences, it's something only Battler and Ange do (okay, Beato/Yasu in Ep 4 as well but maybe she was mocking Battler?)
Very good idea that I had myself. Btw. the fight between Battler and Erika, to me, resembles pretty much the fight at the end of EP4, with Erika throwing out blue chains and chaining Battler to a huge blue sword threatening to pierce him; only this time it is shown as something not nearly as good.
Yes, the manga does make us understand Erika's position better, because she was basically betrayed by everybody and toyed around with even by Bern (who likely knew from the very beginning that Natsuhi had nothing to do with the murders).

There is an interesting scene at the end of the chapter, where they start talking about why she is doing this and how that relates to Ange.
Spoiler for Talking about Truth and Ange:


To me that again pretty much reads like Erika being a representation of Ange's anger and frustration, maybe also Tohya's fear about what Ange could turn into if she is actually left with nothing more than her quest for the truth.
This whole confrontation also does a much better job (like all of the EP8 manga) to explain why exactly meta-Battler is doing all that to Ange. He really is afraid that it will have a horrible impact on her if she learns the truth without understanding more about it. He's still a pretty big blockhead for not trusting her a little bit more, but having Ange's plan actually spoken out makes his fears a little bit more substantial.
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Old 2013-11-16, 08:00   Link #33230
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Very good idea that I had myself. Btw. the fight between Battler and Erika, to me, resembles pretty much the fight at the end of EP4, with Erika throwing out blue chains and chaining Battler to a huge blue sword threatening to pierce him; only this time it is shown as something not nearly as good.
There are quite a lot of parallel between Erika and Ange and the only 2 different things are Erika is the detective and mystery book obsessed while Ange apparently is the opposite and how Erika had a boyfriend (though in a way if you strip this of the romantic element Erika believing her boyfriend love someone more than her might be a parallel to how Ange claims that Battler is wasting his time having 'fun' with the witch... and Erika's boyfriend chasing her away a parallel to Tohya, whom Ange believed to be Battler, refusing to meet her).

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Yes, the manga does make us understand Erika's position better, because she was basically betrayed by everybody and toyed around with even by Bern (who likely knew from the very beginning that Natsuhi had nothing to do with the murders).
The manga is pretty sympathetic toward Erika. Even in Ep 5, when Natsuhi accuses her of having never loved someone, the manga shows a pic of a crying Erika living in Erika's past, implying although Erika acts that way she's not just a jerk.

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There is an interesting scene at the end of the chapter, where they start talking about why she is doing this and how that relates to Ange.
I so love how the manga goes around explaining things instead than wasting time with games...

Spoiler for Talking about Truth and Ange:


Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
To me that again pretty much reads like Erika being a representation of Ange's anger and frustration, maybe also Tohya's fear about what Ange could turn into if she is actually left with nothing more than her quest for the truth.
This whole confrontation also does a much better job (like all of the EP8 manga) to explain why exactly meta-Battler is doing all that to Ange. He really is afraid that it will have a horrible impact on her if she learns the truth without understanding more about it. He's still a pretty big blockhead for not trusting her a little bit more, but having Ange's plan actually spoken out makes his fears a little bit more substantial.
Well, I think Battler/Tohya's fear makes more sense if you consider Battler/Tohya situation. He's really bad at handling unpleasant truths. When it turned out his father cheated his mother he left the family, when he realized one of his relatives could be a culprit he decided to believe the witch and let it ensave him and eat him, when he couldn't figure out magic in Ep 3 he had a 'reject' moment, when Beato betrayed him in Ep 3 he again froze, he was destroyed and lost sense of self by just hearing Asumu wasn't his biological mother and we know when Tohya started remembering things he rejected them afraid they would 'erase him' and then even had a fit that caused him to end on a wheelchair.

Sure, he recovered after each trauma but here and there got pretty close to death. So in his mind learning an unpleasant truth might be tied with risking self destruction. To him is a concrete reality, laced with the fact his first reactions at learning the truth are always self destructive and only if he receives help he manages to recover and, in Tohya's case, he gained a permanent disability.

If he applies this reasoning to Ange as soon as she learn an unpleasant truth he couldn't help but believe she'll do the same as him, trying to self destroy herself and he won't there to stop her as Battler doesn't exist anymore... and Tohya rejects to be him.

So it's not a matter of trust in Ange, it's more a matter of thinking his own behaviour will apply to Ange as well...

Apparently he doesn't know the option 'someone learnt an unpleasant truth and dealt with it in a normal way'.

On a sidenote in Ep 7 Battler insists during those years previous to his return he'd been pretty busy... in doing what I wonder? Didn't he live the normal life of a teen or he got himself in troubles more than once as a way to cope with what had happened to him? This might explain why Battler culprit theory is popular while we've no info about a George culprit theory being that meaningful even though it would make more sense for George to be the culprit with the secret aim to get the money and marry Shannon and for Eva to try to cover up for him.
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Old 2013-11-17, 11:59   Link #33231
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Well, I think Battler/Tohya's fear makes more sense if you consider Battler/Tohya situation. He's really bad at handling unpleasant truths. When it turned out his father cheated his mother he left the family, when he realized one of his relatives could be a culprit he decided to believe the witch and let it ensave him and eat him, when he couldn't figure out magic in Ep 3 he had a 'reject' moment, when Beato betrayed him in Ep 3 he again froze, he was destroyed and lost sense of self by just hearing Asumu wasn't his biological mother and we know when Tohya started remembering things he rejected them afraid they would 'erase him' and then even had a fit that caused him to end on a wheelchair.

Sure, he recovered after each trauma but here and there got pretty close to death. So in his mind learning an unpleasant truth might be tied with risking self destruction. To him is a concrete reality, laced with the fact his first reactions at learning the truth are always self destructive and only if he receives help he manages to recover and, in Tohya's case, he gained a permanent disability.

If he applies this reasoning to Ange as soon as she learn an unpleasant truth he couldn't help but believe she'll do the same as him, trying to self destroy herself and he won't there to stop her as Battler doesn't exist anymore... and Tohya rejects to be him.

So it's not a matter of trust in Ange, it's more a matter of thinking his own behaviour will apply to Ange as well...

Apparently he doesn't know the option 'someone learnt an unpleasant truth and dealt with it in a normal way'.
Since it's hard to know whose perspective all of ep8 happens under, it's difficult to say with any certainty whether the Ange presented in ep8 is actually Ange or Tohya's imagined Ange. Her behavior certainly fits more as an aspect of his psychology than hers (arguably ep4 covers that better).

One reason I'd think this: In his own mind, he's probably inadequate to fulfill the promise of returning to Ange, since he's a stranger to her now. However, I find it difficult to believe that Ange would care all that much. Given the affection and nostalgia she's shown toward her brother, I can't imagine she'd care if he remembered her as long as he was alive.

Similarly, that argument Erika has with Battler in the manga doesn't make a lot of sense if events are transpiring in Ange's mental landscape. It wouldn't make sense for Erika to mock him about not coming back because Ange doesn't genuinely think there's any chance of that happening, but Tohya would know that it is possible but undesirable or imperfect (which sort of matches Battler's response). "Why don't you just come back to her?" is an argument that only hurts a Battler who knows it's possible that he can.

I would think if Ange were going to personify a being as withholding the truth from her it'd be Eva. That's how it plays out in ep4, but in ep8 it's quite different. So it kind of makes more sense to be viewing this as Tohya's thoughts and not hers, meaning the Ange of ep8 is the worst-case-scenario Ange of his deepest fears.

In a way, ep8 does the opposite of the other Chiru episodes which tend to offer some answers to a question already asked. Ep8, at least with respect to the Ange stuff, sort of raises a question that already got answered in ep4, which is how Ange can find anything to live for in a world where she can't know the truth. We already know she found an answer of sorts in forgiving Eva and remembering Maria's optimism there. She may not have "forgotten" it at all; instead, Tohya just might not be able to believe that she'll be able to cope and will spend her life self-destructively refusing to move on.

The Magic ending would suggest then that he was wrong the whole time. Ange could cope just fine, and all she really cared about was seeing that he was alright. The suicidal self-destructive Ange or the ruthless Trick ending Ange never existed... well, assuming the Magic ending happened and was real/Prime/whatever.
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Old 2013-11-17, 13:07   Link #33232
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We already know she found an answer of sorts in forgiving Eva and remembering Maria's optimism there. She may not have "forgotten" it at all; instead, Tohya just might not be able to believe that she'll be able to cope and will spend her life self-destructively refusing to move on.
Well, in that case you'd also need to consider the outcome of EP4's 1998 storyline as well, Ange dies in that scenario as well. Going by the way she talks to the resurrected Eva who threatens her, it's not unlikely that this was actually her confrontation with Amakusa, who she ended up killing.

The only thing that still remains mysterious right now is how that connects to any actual post-1998 scenario. The EP8 VN told us that "Ushiromiya Ange" dies one way or the other, either by actually killing herself, by being killed, by vanishing or by signing over the company and getting the new identity of Kotobuki Yukari, so maybe Tohya's fear is not completely unbased (at least from a plot perspective).

We'll have to see what the manga tells us, but so far that point is still pretty much in the air. Especially when there is this very weird scene in chapter 20 of the manga where Featherine transforms back into Ikuko (in her office) with Bern lying on her couch and saying how she will quietly sit by and record Ange's choice, which is not yet decided, but the fact that Ange will come and unlock the book of One Truth is fixed (and it shows that Ikuko has both the diary and the key)...

Well and then the servant comes by and tells her the publisher called and that Tohya has woken up, prompting Bern to become the cat again...so this kinda implies that Ikuko actually is Featherine...
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Old 2013-11-17, 19:07   Link #33233
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Well, in that case you'd also need to consider the outcome of EP4's 1998 storyline as well, Ange dies in that scenario as well. Going by the way she talks to the resurrected Eva who threatens her, it's not unlikely that this was actually her confrontation with Amakusa, who she ended up killing.

The only thing that still remains mysterious right now is how that connects to any actual post-1998 scenario. The EP8 VN told us that "Ushiromiya Ange" dies one way or the other, either by actually killing herself, by being killed, by vanishing or by signing over the company and getting the new identity of Kotobuki Yukari, so maybe Tohya's fear is not completely unbased (at least from a plot perspective).

We'll have to see what the manga tells us, but so far that point is still pretty much in the air. Especially when there is this very weird scene in chapter 20 of the manga where Featherine transforms back into Ikuko (in her office) with Bern lying on her couch and saying how she will quietly sit by and record Ange's choice, which is not yet decided, but the fact that Ange will come and unlock the book of One Truth is fixed (and it shows that Ikuko has both the diary and the key)...

Well and then the servant comes by and tells her the publisher called and that Tohya has woken up, prompting Bern to become the cat again...so this kinda implies that Ikuko actually is Featherine...
I wonder if the fact that Ange will read the book of 1 truth is fixed because... actually it has already happened.

If we assume that when Eva died Ange was the first who found the diary, read it and then disappeared and the diary ended up in Ikuko's hands later Ange reading it is a fixed truth... although Battler/Tohya might not know/be sure if Ange had read it or not and so in his mind he conjured up various scenarious in which he hoped to drive a message to Ange prior to her reading the book... or at least prior her doing something really foolish like killing herself.

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Since it's hard to know whose perspective all of ep8 happens under, it's difficult to say with any certainty whether the Ange presented in ep8 is actually Ange or Tohya's imagined Ange. Her behavior certainly fits more as an aspect of his psychology than hers (arguably ep4 covers that better).

One reason I'd think this: In his own mind, he's probably inadequate to fulfill the promise of returning to Ange, since he's a stranger to her now. However, I find it difficult to believe that Ange would care all that much. Given the affection and nostalgia she's shown toward her brother, I can't imagine she'd care if he remembered her as long as he was alive.

Similarly, that argument Erika has with Battler in the manga doesn't make a lot of sense if events are transpiring in Ange's mental landscape. It wouldn't make sense for Erika to mock him about not coming back because Ange doesn't genuinely think there's any chance of that happening, but Tohya would know that it is possible but undesirable or imperfect (which sort of matches Battler's response). "Why don't you just come back to her?" is an argument that only hurts a Battler who knows it's possible that he can.

I would think if Ange were going to personify a being as withholding the truth from her it'd be Eva. That's how it plays out in ep4, but in ep8 it's quite different. So it kind of makes more sense to be viewing this as Tohya's thoughts and not hers, meaning the Ange of ep8 is the worst-case-scenario Ange of his deepest fears.

In a way, ep8 does the opposite of the other Chiru episodes which tend to offer some answers to a question already asked. Ep8, at least with respect to the Ange stuff, sort of raises a question that already got answered in ep4, which is how Ange can find anything to live for in a world where she can't know the truth. We already know she found an answer of sorts in forgiving Eva and remembering Maria's optimism there. She may not have "forgotten" it at all; instead, Tohya just might not be able to believe that she'll be able to cope and will spend her life self-destructively refusing to move on.

The Magic ending would suggest then that he was wrong the whole time. Ange could cope just fine, and all she really cared about was seeing that he was alright. The suicidal self-destructive Ange or the ruthless Trick ending Ange never existed... well, assuming the Magic ending happened and was real/Prime/whatever.
I'll say we can't be sure which is Ange's personality as we don't know if Ep 4 represent Ange's real personality or it's merely another forgery in which her piece had a different role. Actually, as MetaAnge is apparently always a piece of some sort, it's possible none of the Ange we met are the true Ange and her past is slightly altered by the reader's perception like Yasu's in Ep 7 while her various endings are also fiction, fantasy, Battler/Tohya's hope for her.
In the manga there are various reference to Ange being still a child. It can be a reference to the fact her piece is built up on Battler/Tohya's memories of Ange as a child and some factual informations he learnt about her life, but not on real Ange.

As a person changes quite a bit in 8 years, expecially when facing such situation and that the facts Battler/Tohya learnt about her had been influenced by who narrated them, is possible Prime Ange is completely different from how Battler pictures her.

Interesting enough the manga took care to explain Ange's change of heart from Ep 4 to Ep 8 saying that she decided to forgive Eva and tried to but then the Battler and family culprit theory became popular and Bern showed her that Teaparty and she couldn't bear it she went back on blaming Eva. Not the best explanation but at least it makes more sense than her switching back to how she was before randomly.
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Old 2013-11-18, 06:16   Link #33234
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Really like the direction that the manga is taking. I wonder if RK07 will release an updated version of the EP8 to reflect the changes.
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Old 2013-11-18, 11:41   Link #33235
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I wonder if the fact that Ange will read the book of 1 truth is fixed because... actually it has already happened.

If we assume that when Eva died Ange was the first who found the diary, read it and then disappeared and the diary ended up in Ikuko's hands later Ange reading it is a fixed truth... although Battler/Tohya might not know/be sure if Ange had read it or not and so in his mind he conjured up various scenarious in which he hoped to drive a message to Ange prior to her reading the book... or at least prior her doing something really foolish like killing herself.
That was something I'd considered, or perhaps something like Ange actually did meet with Ikuko at some point, but she kept this a secret from Tohya.

One way or another, Ikuko knows that Ange learning the contents of the diary is inevitable, either because she already did or because Ikuko personally revealed it to her. But in either case, Ikuko doesn't know what happened to Ange after that, so there's really no way she can explain it to Tohya.

It'd be entirely in Ikuko's character to keep that from him too. She knows anything he attempts to do to comfort himself will be meaningless, because the story's already been written.
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I'll say we can't be sure which is Ange's personality as we don't know if Ep 4 represent Ange's real personality or it's merely another forgery in which her piece had a different role. Actually, as MetaAnge is apparently always a piece of some sort, it's possible none of the Ange we met are the true Ange and her past is slightly altered by the reader's perception like Yasu's in Ep 7 while her various endings are also fiction, fantasy, Battler/Tohya's hope for her.
In the manga there are various reference to Ange being still a child. It can be a reference to the fact her piece is built up on Battler/Tohya's memories of Ange as a child and some factual informations he learnt about her life, but not on real Ange.

As a person changes quite a bit in 8 years, expecially when facing such situation and that the facts Battler/Tohya learnt about her had been influenced by who narrated them, is possible Prime Ange is completely different from how Battler pictures her.
Again, it all just makes more sense to me if ep8 is in Tohya's head, and that's in keeping with the idea that to some extent the meta-landscape has always been there. The fact that Battler has this dichotomy where he clearly exists in the Golden Land (meaning he's dead, and to Tohya "Ushiromiya Battler" is just as dead as Beatrice or Maria is), yet is able to influence events beyond that (which Tohya could sort of rationalize as his memories interfering with and threatening Tohya's own existence).

Everything within it makes more sense as an aspect of his own world, especially if the characters map to and reflect on things he's familiar with (like Ikuko or Bern). There's just too much in ep8 that Ange honestly wouldn't or couldn't know, and ep8 is in some sense not told from the perspective of Ange as the protagonist. Arguably, one could say Ange is one of the antagonists of ep8; she certainly spends a lot of time hanging out with the "villains" and has goals in line with theirs, and the thrust of the story is arguably "Battler is trying to do X, but Ange is resistant" rather than "Ange is trying to do X, but Battler is getting in her way." That's certainly how Ange sees it, but it doesn't make a lot of sense in any real scenario; there's no way Battler/Tohya can get in Ange's way. In fact, he seems terrified of actually meeting her and it takes him an age to do it.

Flip it around though, and Ange being an antagonistic force to Battler and what he's created makes a lot of sense. Tohya is afraid of the impact his choices may have had on Ange, and realizes that he still feels guilty about her brother failing her because, while he doesn't feel like Battler and doesn't truly remember him, he acknowledges the truth that he used to be him (so Battler not returning is essentially, in his mind, his fault). So he can't stop imagining Anges who are consumed by their inability to know or understand the truth, and whom he cannot reach or convince no matter what avenue he tries because he's ruined everything by his previous actions (like writing about it).

Makes you wonder if, should Ikuko in fact know that Ange already found out the truth (or at least the contents of the diary) at some point, would Tohya have ever found out about it? How would he have reacted?
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Old 2013-11-18, 14:57   Link #33236
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Makes you wonder if, should Ikuko in fact know that Ange already found out the truth (or at least the contents of the diary) at some point, would Tohya have ever found out about it? How would he have reacted?
Well, we do know that in the EP4 storyline Ange apparently tried contacting the Hachijo household, but since Tohya refused meeting with her their chance of meeting passed. If we consider this idea then the Ange storylines could actually be predictions that Tohya made about what Ange's future would hold.

Though what does that say about the scene where Ikuko plans to publicize the content of the Book of One Truth? Ikuko's attempt to chronicle Ange's journey? Is everything we learn about Ange a catbox as well?
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Old 2013-11-18, 20:31   Link #33237
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I'll toss here a random thought. What if Ange found Eva's diary after her death, tried to contact Tohya, was turned down and then disappeared after asking for the diary to be delivered to him and ended up handing it to Ikuko?
This would make as a fixed fact the thing that Ange will get into possession of the diary and Ikuko might know if she had read it or not although she might decide not inform Tohya about how Ange read it.
Now, if Tohya read it, he can hope Ange didn't read it or not although he can make a polite guess. This would make EP 8 a desperate attempt to influence what had already happened.

Ange in fact had read the diary but Tohya/Battler tried to deliver the message it's not so important what happened compared to the fact his family loved her so she shouldn't do anything foolish.

Declaring they'll show everyone the book might be an attempt to call Ange back. Maybe they thought if they were to say they'll let it became public Ange would rush to them to try stop them. Or maybe it could be an attempt to indirectly help Ange as people became a little more simpathetic to her after this.
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Old 2013-11-19, 09:34   Link #33238
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Though what does that say about the scene where Ikuko plans to publicize the content of the Book of One Truth? Ikuko's attempt to chronicle Ange's journey? Is everything we learn about Ange a catbox as well?
Given ep8's attempts to suggest that, I'd think so. Maybe not the very last bit we learn, but perhaps everything about Ange before that point.

The question is whether Umineko has a single consistent overall point of view. Now obviously I'm not talking about a single narrator, because it doesn't have that at all. What I mean is, is the entire narrative structured around the observations of somebody like Tohya, and how that person reacts to and thinks about all the events, or is it somehow constructed from multiple viewpoints? If it's the former, there's no way that Ange can exist as an actual independent observer, and the Ange that exists is the Ange of the observer's imagination. In other words, all the various Anges that we see are Anges that Tohya conceives of, but they don't represent the Ange that actually exists (because her existence is in a catbox and Tohya cannot know what she actually did).
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Old 2013-11-19, 12:14   Link #33239
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The question is whether Umineko has a single consistent overall point of view. Now obviously I'm not talking about a single narrator, because it doesn't have that at all. What I mean is, is the entire narrative structured around the observations of somebody like Tohya, and how that person reacts to and thinks about all the events, or is it somehow constructed from multiple viewpoints?
I'm mainly basing this off the TIPs and the existence of the meta-world in general, but I think it is the latter. Going for example by Forgery No. xxx we learn that besides the good Battler, who acted as the gamemaster of EP6, there is also Black Battler, who is "born from the wish for a Battler who can be the culprit." This would imply that the whole of the meta-world is an amalgamation of everything that is thought about 1986.

In this way EP8 could be a mixture of Ange's experiences and thoughts and those of Tohya. If so, then both the Ange in EP8 and the Battler in EP8 would be true (and would explain how their perspectives are mostly seperate for the main part of the narrative).

Btw. on Ikuko=Yasu once more and also on the question on perspective.
During EP8 in the fight over the Golden Land, I think it is no accident that it is Battler and Ange who go to the Meta-Library with Lambda, while Beato remains with the others to protect the Golden Land and finally dies on Erika's ship(!) when the whole island is sucked into the void.

The whole event in the meta-library basically speaks for an Ange-perspective, but with input from Battler. It is he (the hope in him and his survival) who finally beats down Bern (Ange's desperation about the absoluteness of her family's horrible death) but only due to Ange actually believing in him and in the message he imparted on her.
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Old 2013-11-19, 15:52   Link #33240
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Iono if Ryuukishi had this in mind when he made Umineko but I'm fairly certain Beatrice's an INFJs. Reading on the growth of one through time seems to explain her fairly well. Outside of explaining her duality, quest for understanding herself, feelings of loneliness, being unhappy in love, rationality vs emotions (with emotions winning), etc... it also brings two points that might relate to the mystery itself.
1) Fiction and somewhat society itself tend to portray INFJ's intuition as a sort of clairvoyant power - tho that is wrong I'm thinking there might be something about Yasu's apparent prediction of the Rokkenjima tragedy (one could even argue the various arcs are different interpretation of her intuition).
2) INFJs tend to consider that everything is their own fault. Could that be the reason why she portrayed herself as the killer in every arc? It at the very least seems very odd to think she would actually do it in prime.

A somewhat interesting point is that INFJs are supposedly the best at introverted Intuition which "solves paradoxes" and "create possibilities where there was none" - however aren't very good at using these new possibilities themselves. I believe this is fitting for explaining how good Beatrice is at creating new possibilities when it looks like she hit a dead end up but Yasu herself can't get out of her own real life dead end.
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