[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[Kitsu]

Yup! The last ones are at least the theological ones in christianity which are of course the most fitting since we have the seven grave sins. Marions remind me of the "knight virtues"

If I want to match virtues and children I would.

Hope-Ange
Faith-Maria
Love-Shannon
Prudence-George
Temperance-
Fortitude-
Justice-

last three are quite hard in my opinion...because we all know the Kanon is brave, he always goes and faces the culprit and fights till his last moments but he is quite hot-headed. Battler could represent the justice and the fortitude. And Jessica could represent Temperance and Justice (in my opinion even Fortitude)

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Yet i don't think he's anywhere close to the personification of chastity. You should not forget that according to christianity you can sin with actions, thoughts and omissions. Thoughts and actions are often considered the same thing, therefore Battler he's not that pure.

Anyway where did you get those virtues from? I guess there are several different version of what the 7 virtues should be. The one i know are:

Fortitude/Courage
Justice
Prudence
Temperance

Faith
Love
Hope

The thing with virtues is that there are so many names for them. They aren't nearly as set in stone as the vices. Anyways, the ones I used are just different words for the original 7 (the 4 cardinal and 3 theoretical)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_virtues

Wikipedia is a reliable source, right?

[Jan-Poo]

It looks like you used the seven "heavenly" virtues. Those are basically the opposite of the seven sins, while with the original seven there's no correspondence. I tend to prefer the original seven or even better the original four.

[Marion]

Well I used them mostly because I was trying to contrast between the adults and the children. The children are obviously trying to remain as pure as possible, despite the hateful tensions between their parents.

Also, can I just go off topic for a moment to say that this Winchester looks awesome and I totally want it.

(Mostly stating this here because EP 3 is the "Epic Maneuvers" game, most of which feature Winchester wielding parents)

[izmosmolnar]

By the way I know it's not revelant, but I'm just wondering why Wrath is represented by Satan and not Amon?
As far as I know both Satan and Amon are equally the demons associated with the Wrath sin. Was it Satan in the japanese original, or Witch Hunt decided about Satan? (Or is Satan and Amon the very same thing? Sorry, I probably know as much about religion, as I know about quantum physics -ie. not much-. Additionally, prior to playing Umineko, I always thought Lucifer too is just a different name for Satan.).

Or is that because Amon is -similarly to Ronove- one of the 72 goetic demons, and that should/would make one of the stake sisters illogically powerful? But Asmodeus (Lust) is one of the 72 too (#32 King Asmoday)!

[Northernme]

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

By the way I know it's not revelant, but I'm just wondering why Wrath is represented by Satan and not Amon?
As far as I know both Satan and Amon are equally the demons associated with the Wrath sin. Was it Satan in the japanese original, or Witch Hunt decided about Satan? (Or is Satan and Amon the very same thing? Sorry, I probably know as much about religion, as I know about quantum physics -ie. not much-. Additionally, prior to playing Umineko, I always thought Lucifer too is just a different name for Satan.).

Or is that because Amon is -similarly to Ronove- one of the 72 goetic demons, and that should/would make one of the stake sisters illogically powerful? But Asmodeus (Lust) is one of the 72 too (#32 King Asmoday)!

The translation team hasn't changed any names, it was Satan originally. I don't know if there's a reason; the thing is, there is a billion conflicting texts about demons and sins and whatnot, so it really just is a matter of which one Ryu07 decided to base the story on. Amon and Satan certainly aren't the same.

[Jan-Poo]

What? I didn't know there was a real connection between those names and the sins °_°;

Leviathan shouldn't even be a demon, Satan and Lucifer are two names for the same being.

But I have found the source Ryukishi referred to, again thanx to wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins

Scroll down till "association with demons". It looks like a certain Peter Binsfeld did this in 1589. Frankly considering the time gap between this date and the original creation of the mythological figures, I see this something around the line of fan fictions. Why would this guy think he has the knowledge to make such claims is beyond me. It's as if I wrote a connection between northern gods and deadly sins and claimed it was something official.

Anyway it seems that Amon and Satan are considered the same thing according to this classification. Clearly this guy didn't have any real knowledge about those myths. Only biased and unreliable informations.

Funny fact: Peter Binsfeld was a witch hunter

[izmosmolnar]

@Northernme. Yeah I noticed there are thousand contradicting sources regarding the demons, deities, and such demigods. In the end none of them was able to give a clear, understandable answer. Actually some articles even regard Beelzebub (Gluttony) and no1 of the 72, Baal the same deity, but I believe that's also false.

Though it's clearly odd that Asmodeus is (theoretically speaking) only 5 "rank" behind Ronove (who is #27). What I find odd is, that Beato said how hard is to summon one of the 72 demons and how much magical energy and material stuff she had to sacrifice or something, but I believe summoning Asmodeus as one of the seven stakes, should have been the same difficulty, since she is a goetic demon too, and she's ranked fairly close in power to Ronove. (It shouldn't be that hard than is it?) Or Ryukishi didn't noticed that Asmodeus and Asmoday are the same entities?

@Jan-Poo I know I linked that on my post before . That was actually which started to puzzle me, who and why decided about Satan and leave out/ignore Amon. Though it's questionable Satan and Lucifer is the same (they say here they are seperate entitys, and check the wikipage too). As I said though I always thought Lucifer is just a different name for Satan (as is Devil too), but I admit, my knowledge about religion is really poor.

Actually your scenario isn't impossible though. If you would qualify as an awesome theologist and write some nonsense about say Aztec Gods, and no one would be able to prove it wrong (or the ones who try to prove you wrong, are too quiet, and nothing would be preserved from them to the posterity), people several hundred years later regard your nonsense as a valuable and genuine possibility. At least I personally don't find that unimaginable, and I think it might have been the same with that fellow.

[Jan-Poo]

@Jan-Poo I know I linked that on my post before . That was actually which started to puzzle me, who and why decided about Satan and leave out/ignore Amon. Though it's questionable Satan and Lucifer is the same (they say here they are seperate entitys, and check the wikipage too). As I said though I always thought Lucifer is just a different name for Satan (as is Devil too), but I admit, my knowledge about religion is really poor.

Yeah i know about this discussion. The problem is the original reference is talking about a King, not a demon. In addition, the name "Lucifer" doesn't come from a hebrew word but from Latin. Lucifer may be the exact translation of the title of the king mentioned in the bible, however at the time that latin name was conceived it was believed that Lucifer was another name for the Devil/Satan.
In other words even if it was a mistake this name has always been associated with the Devil from the start, and if you want to stick with the original meaning then you'd better use the original hebrew name.

Well how should I say this... if you refuse the fact that the "Morning star" mentioned in the bible isn't Satan, then there is abslutely no demonic connection. If you think it's Satan then there is a demonic connection, however... it's Satan. But how can we refuse the identity Lucifer=Devil and still say that Lucifer is a demon? °°;

[Marion]

Lucifer is identified as Pride in the game. Most religions believe that Pride is one of the original sins - in that the other six sins stem from it. Lucifer the Angel rebelled against God and was casted down to Hell for his Pride. Lucifer believed he was more powerful than God so he was taken down a notch.

Satan/Devil are other names for Lucifer, as it is more of a Latin used name. As far as Satan goes, in the game the Stake Satan represents Wrath. Satan is considered to be an evil demon who tortures you in Hell. But Lucifer was the Angel casted down into Hell. Lucifer and Satan usually equal the same person, but most believe Lucifer became Satan when he went to Hell. So if anything Lucifer and Satan are the different entities in the same idea XD

[Jan-Poo]

Satan probably became the personification of wrath in parallel stories. If you read the passages in the bible I'd hardly say he is described as a person prone to anger.

Just read the famous story of Job.

Satan nonchalantly pays a visit to God.
God boasts as how Job is a very faithful servant
Satan tells him Job is only faithful because he's been well rewarded
God tells Satan to try and do his worst on Job, betting that nothing would change
Satan does his worst on Job
*insert various bad events to the faithful Job here*
Job stripped of everything he had doesn't let his faith falter
Satan goes back to God
God says: I told you so.

Nothing is said about Satan being a sore loser, at max I could say he was envious. Or maybe he was an incredibly sly demon that had the perfect plan to make God let him do as he pleased on Job.

[izmosmolnar]

@Marion. So basically what you are saying they are the very same entities but from different time-era? (ergo before Lucifer became Satan?)

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Satan probably became the personification of wrath in parallel stories. If you read the passages in the bible I'd hardly say he is described as a person prone to anger.

Just read the famous story of Job.

Satan nonchalantly pays a visit to God.
God boasts as how Job is a very faithful servant
Satan tells him Job is only faithful because he's been well rewarded
God tells Satan to try and do his worst on Job, betting that nothing would change
Satan does his worst on Job
*insert various bad events to the faithful Job here*
Job stripped of everything he had doesn't let his faith falter
Satan goes back to God
God says: I told you so.

Nothing is said about Satan being a sore loser, at max I could say he was envious. Or maybe he was an incredibly sly demon that had the perfect plan to make God let him do as he pleased on Job.

That's actually a tale from the Old Testament (aka the Hebrew bible). There are speculators that Satan is just a term for the person that went to God, not "The Satan".

And yes, basically. Lucifer = Satan, but Lucifer was not ALWAYS Satan. He became known as it after being thrown to Hell.

[Jan-Poo]

I always wondered where is the original story that tells about the battle between the angels led by Lucifer and God. The battle that saw Lucifer being defeated and being sent to hell where he supposedly still resides as a ruler.

It's a story that's always mentioned but I'm pretty sure it's not found in the old testament. Anyone has any idea?

Anyway I don't even think there was "The Satan" when that story was written. Rather the concept of Satan was created later grounded on this certain "Satan" (literally: the adversary) mentioned in earlier books.
Despite common belief concept like hells and devils are not original of the hebrew culture (or rather they had a different meaning), those were all popularized by the roman catholic church. It is funny the fact that the names of the Gods worshiped by neighbor populations were then used to define the divine personification of evil: Baal and Amon come to mind.

[Kitsu]

Book of Revelation was it, or? Also about this whol discussion
I'm not sure...aw screw this on monday I'll just ask my old religion teacher who is awesome and critical and knows the bible by heart.
But I won't ask my knew one she thinks that she has seen an angel...and is totally fanatic. God, I've once got a F because I said "I don't believe in God and if he exists he's an asshole" since I was mad 'bout the Job story.

EDIT!!
I know it sounds stupid but...Episode 1 the boiler room murder of Kanon or in Episode 2. Couldn't he committed suicide? And so reached the highest level of wrath?

[izmosmolnar]

I've started trying to look at things from a non-magic perspective, and I find George a bit of an undescribeable character for now. I'm fairly sure there must be someone involved from the cousins side too (apart from Maria helping with deliveries and such) and frankly, I don't really know what to think about George. He's certainly strong enough to kill, and he is alone quite a few times in episode1, so he might be responsible for some of the murders, and despite how nice guy he is, it just makes me more suspicious of him.
But what I cannot really estimate, could George kill his own parents? Or even one of them? I haven't really seen him attached to them emotionally so far. If he somehow knows about the resentment Eva feels about Shannon, and if he's indeed madly in love with Shannon, I could even imagine him killing his own mother, but I'm not entirely sure about it. What do you folks think? Could he go that far and kill his parents?

[Jan-Poo]

you'd need to think he's an incredibly good actor or a psycho with multiple personality disorder. The George we know would never do such a thing, however maybe there is another George we do not know.

Either way it's hard to believe he would kill Shannon, unless what was shown in ep2 prologue was totally fake. So George at best might have killed someone, but he's not the only killer and he's not the mastermind. It must also be said that in ep3 he dies while Eva survives, so in this case his supposed attempt to kill her mother didn't really work.
I dunno about Hideyoshi, he doesn't seem as strict as his wife, I think he's the kind of man that would accept Shannon as his son's bride. That of course if he's not showing a fake personality.

[maximilianjenus]

I don't see anythign really leading to george being a culprit, for me battler, genji and rosa are the most likely ones to be so, what with rosa fighting against the police while taking the gold, and genji always having nice oportunities plus skills to kill people.

[momobunny]

I think the most suspicious people are Kanon, Shannon, Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa.

Kanon's deaths for the first three games have just been weird.

Spoiler for Kanon:

EP1
His death was odd, it's not really explained what happened exactly and how. It's just mysterious.

EP2
His body wasn't found in the room we saw him die in. Also there was a "fake" Kanon added in later on...

EP3
He died on the first twilight, but then his "spirit" came back to guide Jessica at the end. I find this odd as well...

Shannon doesn't necessarily die oddly or anything... but there are a couple of weird things...

Spoiler for Shannon:

EP2
Her role in this was great and all... but her seeing and talking with Beatrice... defeating the "fake" Kanon... and her reaction to Rosa suspecting her as opposed to her reaction of people dieing... it was just a little off to me. I don't know if she's directly involved in the murders, but I'd like to think that she knew more than she let on...

EP3
Well the only thing odd I can think of was when George "resurrected" her.

Nanjo just strikes me as a suspicious person...

Spoiler for Nanjo:

I'm not going to go episode by episode here. He doesn't seem able to give a proper diagnosis on some of the deaths...
He doesn't say much at all, I mean I know it's not THAT big of a deal. But it just makes him look more suspicious to me...
His deaths in EP2 and EP3.
The fake Kanon killing him the way he did...
And the whole puzzle with "Who killed Dr. Nanjo?" in EP3...

He just seems a little too suspicious to me...

Genji is... well... there's not much about him that I know...

Spoiler for Genji:

He's really silent and almost emotionless... this itself just strikes me as odd seeing as there are murders going on around him. It's almost as if he knows something...
His abilities... like pinning the one butterfly in EP2 and the way he killed Shannon and Kanon in EP3. It's just a little odd that they are so mysterious, what are his powers exactly? Incredible Accuracy? Speed?...

Kumasawa seems to get nervous at times...

Spoiler for Kumasawa:

Not much is known about her at all.
She's also pretty quiet compared to most.
She gets nervous whenever she's explaining herself... not to say that this is reason enough to believe her, she could simply be scared, or for unknown reasons just be acting to MAKE herself look suspicious or frightened. I've thought about this myself... perhaps she could be acting? But I don't really know why she'd do this (since it makes her look a little questionable)...

Her relationship with Virgilia. They are both shown at the same time in the tea party... so they're assumed to be two separate entities. But why was she chosen as Virgilia's "prison"? Why was she trapped within Kumasawa?

Kumasawa is old enough to have secrets and unknown ties to the family. It's not like she's a child or anything, she could have done things in the past and be related to this whole thing... is that where Virgilia comes in? Were they both related to Kinzo's past or something?

I suspect these characters of SOMETHING. Not the mass murder or anything, but I believe that they all at least KNOW some things about what's going on... more so than the family does.

[izmosmolnar]

I'm not sure maybe I just don't like George's seemingly fake smile, sugar-coated overwhelmingly kind personality and his disappearance through the window in episode 3.

Maho Momo raised some good points, and mostly we can only speculate on the reasons.
I also like to add regarding Kuwasama, that everone knows she's slacking off than why are they still employing her? Why would they be loyal to a servant? Neither Kinzo, neither Natsuhi striked me as a particularly sentimental person, who would "reward" her hard work 10-20 years earlier, and ignore, not punish her lazyness now.