[Manga] Naruto Chapter 621 Discussion Thread

[Kenu]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I wonder what "his cells" were, it shouldn't be just some DNA since he could have obtained that without a battle.

Maybe it was some sort of hanky panky: HirashixMadara style that went wrong during the build up, thus resulted in them fighting it out to the end, leaving Madara with a bad taste in the mouth.

[Frenchie]

Clearly Shikamaru > Naruto, Sasuke, Madara.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by james0246

Not really. A thousand stupid people can still accomplish a task, and Naruto is a thousand stupid people in one.

...What he's good at, right?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Dengar

...What he's good at, right?

well if you go back to the beginning of the series, naruto didn't have a talent for clones, but he kept at it until he was good at it. that's actually what the series' theme was until all this genetic stuff started

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Dengar

...What he's good at, right?

Yes. Naruto can use his clones to master any jutsu. Naruto is, almost literally, a walking version of the Infinite monkey theorem (thankfully, Naruto is not a true random number generator since he is not mindless, and with set goals he can accomplish tasks even if he is stupid or lacks aptitude). He can accomplish anything because he is near limitless in terms of power and potential mental capacity (Naruto has a finite amount of ideas his brain or his cloned brains can handle, but you seemingly only have to have a modicum of intelligence to learn any jutsu, so it stands to reason that Naruto would be able to think through any problem he encounters if only due to the bouncing of ideas and endless testing that the clones can oversee).

You don't need to be a genius to do something intelligent, you just need nine hundred and ninety-nine failures and one success. Trial and Error is the simplest yet most universally applicable method of learning and Naruto just happens to be a master of the process (or at least a potential master).

edit: Not that Naruto will ever actually live up to his potential. As Hunter says, Naruto just needs to "do it".

[Eragon]

Originally Posted by james0246

Yes. Naruto can use his clones to master any jutsu. Naruto is, almost literally, a walking version of the Infinite monkey theorem (thankfully, Naruto is not a true random number generator since he is not mindless, and with set goals he can accomplish tasks even if he is stupid or lacks aptitude). He can accomplish anything because he is near limitless in terms of power and potential mental capacity (Naruto has a finite amount of ideas his brain or his cloned brains can handle, but you seemingly only have to have a modicum of intelligence to learn any jutsu, so it stands to reason that Naruto would be able to think through any problem he encounters if only due to the bouncing of ideas and endless testing that the clones can oversee).

You don't need to be a genius to do something intelligent, you just need nine hundred and ninety-nine fools doing equally different foolish things before the thousandth does something that works. Trial and Error is the simplest yet most universally applicable method of learning and Naruto just happens to be a master of the process (or at least a potential master).

You just deconstructed the poor guy. Have some mercy, will you

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by yogotah

Lol at the reaction that Naruto would have if he saw the strength of Hashirama...the kid wouldn't stand a chance.

Don't you think that Naruto has hit a power ceiling?

It's not wise to talk about a "power ceiling" in an action shonen manga
They just keep growing infinitely, that is until the end of the story.
I agree that the current Naruto is weaker than Hashirama in his prime. However what we see is Hashirama's full power, but Naruto has a lot of room for improvement, in both jutsu and power level. Just remember that the ultimate ninja is not Hashirama or Madara, it was the Sage of 6 paths when he became the host of the 10-tails. So if you want to talk about a "power ceiling" it's better to say that the ceiling is the sage's level. I think it all depends on how far Kishimoto wants to take the story and what opponents he can invent for Naruto. Because currently the only worthy opponent for a Naruto that becomes even stronger than Hashirama would be a revived Madara who becomes the host of the 10-tails (he can become if he takes half of the kyuubi out of Minato and captures Bee). That way Madara would be as strong as the sage of 6 paths and also have his EMS and wood powers too. I don't see how could Sasuke become such an opponent unless it turns out that he was genetically engineered by his father and Tobi to awaken the rinnegan plus he becomes the host of the 10-tails. That would be a challenge for Naruto, otherwise it would be boring to see Naruto easily overpowering all enemies.

Currently i believe that Kishimoto wants to return Obito to the good side at the end of the war, so he won't revive Madara, thus Madara can't become the 10-tails' host. Obito might use his rinnegan to do a mass revival, betraying Madara. On the other hand the current Sasuke does not seem determined to kill Naruto, rather he seems confused, doesn't know what he should do. And if Hashirama's talk-no-jutsu is half as good as Naruto's then i don't know what events should happen in order to have Sasuke as the final villain. But even if neither of these become the final super-villain, there's always Orochimaru to entertain us

Originally Posted by yogotah

He's done sage, he's mastered the nine's tail power....I really don't know what else he could do to get stronger....but I can hear Kishi's voice now saying " Don't tempt me, don't tempt me "

I think it's quite obvious what can come next: sage + kyuubi. I already wrote about this: when he became friends with the kyuubi he didn't have to balance out his own chakra with the kyuubi's. It's the opposite now, the kyuubi's chakra counts now as his own. Now imagine a sage mode where he doesn't balance out natural chakra with his own but with the kyuubi's chakra, then if the kyuubi's chakra is for example 100 times more than his own then his new sage mode could become a 100 times more powerful. Also imagine combining all the additional powers that both of these give him: the power, chakra sensing, frog taijutsu of sage mode with the speed and chakra hands of kyuubi mode. I think that this won't happen in this war, only in the future, but it will definitely happen.

Originally Posted by Hunter

I think Naruto has received so many power-ups in quick succession during this arc that people just don't really realize how ridiculously powerful he is become.

Probably because he was saved by others so many times in this war, by KillerBee, Kakashi, Gai, Hinata, Neji and also Ino. It was a team effort, Kishimoto wants to show Itachi's advice working in practice.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Currently i believe that Kishimoto wants to return Obito to the good side at the end of the war, so he won't revive Madara, thus Madara can't become the 10-tails' host. Obito might use his rinnegan to do a mass revival, betraying Madara. On the other hand the current Sasuke does not seem determined to kill Naruto, rather he seems confused, doesn't know what he should do. And if Hashirama's talk-no-jutsu is half as good as Naruto's then i don't know what events should happen in order to have Sasuke as the final villain. But even if neither of these become the final super-villain, there's always Orochimaru to entertain us

Apart from how lame that would be if that actually did happen, right now I don't see it happening. It might change later, but usually "bad guys turning good" starts with the villain realising they were wrong about something, which hasn't happened yet.

Originally Posted by james0246

Yes. Naruto can use his clones to master any jutsu.

I find that to be a bit silly. All it does is shorten the time necessary to learn something. But not everything can be learned. If you don't have the talent, a billion years will not be enough to learn it.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I find that to be a bit silly. All it does is shorten the time necessary to learn something. But not everything can be learned. If you don't have the talent, a billion years will not be enough to learn it.

Statistically that is untrue. Issues of immortality aside, Naruto isn't (re)inventing the wheel, and since ninjutsu isn't exactly string theory (the underpinnings may be, but you don't need to know that much of the 'how' to use ninjutsu) there is nothing preventing him (that we know of) from learning all the techniques of Konoha (which supposedly Sarutobi already did) and then the world. Beyond bloodline abilities (many of which can actually be transferred anyway), and taijutsu (since Kage Bushin do not create muscle memory), Naruto can use his Kage Bushin to learn everything, even if he is only average to slightly below average intelligence. (He'd probably still struggle with genjutsu, and that would be due to his lower intellect, but he could still learn the techniques and with the gains he has made in chakra control he could be damn good at it.)

[Dengar]

Yeah so you can learn how it works, but eventually you reach the cap of how skilled you can get at something. There are people who spend their whole lives practicing a particular type of sport, but never achieve olympic level.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Yeah so you can learn how it works, but eventually you reach the cap of how skilled you can get at something. There are people who spend their whole lives practicing a particular type of sport, but never achieve olympic level.

You are correct, Naruto cannot "master" every ninjutsu. I misspoke in that regard. But, he can learn to utilize every ninjutsu. Even if his fire is always weaker than an Uchihas, or his water is always weaker than Tobirama's, etc, he can still learn all the same fire and water jutsus with Kage Bushin. He will not be a master, but he can still know everything. .

...But, it is said that if you spent 10 years doing any specific task, then you will eventually master said task. Since Naruto has the option of 'living' 10 years in a month, then why couldn't he master everything?

[yogotah]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

It's not wise to talk about a "power ceiling" in an action shonen manga

haha yeah, you're absolutely right, a power ceiling? in Naruto? What was I thinking?

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Currently i believe that Kishimoto wants to return Obito to the good side at the end of the war, so he won't revive Madara, thus Madara can't become the 10-tails' host. Obito might use his rinnegan to do a mass revival, betraying Madara. On the other hand the current Sasuke does not seem determined to kill Naruto, rather he seems confused, doesn't know what he should do. And if Hashirama's talk-no-jutsu is half as good as Naruto's then i don't know what events should happen in order to have Sasuke as the final villain. But even if neither of these become the final super-villain, there's always Orochimaru to entertain us

Honestly, I am emotionally invested in this whole situation. When we were first introduced to Obito, I liked him from the get go. A kid, who isn't truly talented at anything, trying to make in the ninja world. He has a rival and a girl that he admires. To me, I always loved to root for the underdog. Even when he "died" and gave his eyes to Kakashi, I liked it because at least the boy went out as a hero.

But now everything has changed, he's not the same person as he was back then. I don't think it would be a wise idea for him to go "goodie goodie" again, he's past that stage with all the anguish that he has caused throughout the years. I mean it's because of him that Naruto's father died. I just don't see him converting but what I could see is, at the point of his defeat, realize that Naruto was right, and have a near death revelation and convert right before his death.

If that's what you had in mind, then that seems more plausible to me...though still not what I would want to see.

Originally Posted by Dengar

Yeah so you can learn how it works, but eventually you reach the cap of how skilled you can get at something. There are people who spend their whole lives practicing a particular type of sport, but never achieve olympic level.

That's a good analogy that you have comparing Olympians to regular people, but I think the issue here is that most regular people don't have the potential to get that good. If you picked up a regular guy that happened to have genes that would allow him to be athletically gifted as an Olympian, then you could train him and eventually he would get to that point.

So I think the point is that Naruto has the potential to be that great, to be strong enough to perform a variety of jutsus. Since he has clones, he can also learn them in a quick fashion. I find this idea interesting, and I wonder why Orichimaru never bothered to learn the shadow clone justu, if his goal is still to master all jutsus, this would have been an invaluable tool..that is if he has the chakra for it.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by yogotah

So I think the point is that Naruto has the potential to be that great, to be strong enough to perform a variety of jutsus. Since he has clones, he can also learn them in a quick fashion. I find this idea interesting, and I wonder why Orichimaru never bothered to learn the shadow clone justu, if his goal is still to master all jutsus, this would have been an invaluable tool..that is if he has the chakra for it.

Naruto isn't really good at "everything". He seems predisposed to jutsu that favor power over complexity. Then makes up for that by planning his moves.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by yogotah

But now everything has changed, he's not the same person as he was back then. I don't think it would be a wise idea for him to go "goodie goodie" again, he's past that stage with all the anguish that he has caused throughout the years. I mean it's because of him that Naruto's father died. I just don't see him converting but what I could see is, at the point of his defeat, realize that Naruto was right, and have a near death revelation and convert right before his death.

If that's what you had in mind, then that seems more plausible to me...though still not what I would want to see.

Of course he won't live, similarly to Nagato, he dies by sacrificing himself, i know it's "lame" but it works with the audience, so it's often used. Actually i always liked the idea, when someone like him is defeated and realizes his failure, then he has to rethink his life, to realize he was wrong. Otherwise he would just die like an idiot, and some characters deserve more than that. Sure some like Hidan or Kakuzu die like idiots, but they were never important characters. But here there's more to it, we have Kakashi who always believed in Obito, and i think that Kishimoto will restore this belief in the very end, if Obito sacrifices his life at the last moment to save the good guys from Madara. Then we can have all the emotional stuff that Kishimoto likes to put in, like a nice good bye with Kakashi, possibly Obito meeting Rin in the afterlife (like when Kakashi meets his father). Now there's even a chance of Obito meeting with Minato. And also by having not only a battle of ninjutsu between Obito and Naruto but also a battle of will, we can have the hero's will prevail again. Naruto and Obito have already begun a conversation, we already see Obito acting irrationally, that is he is trying to teach a lesson to Naruto, to show him that he is right even if he risks his plan. There are moments when it's made very clear, for example when he sees Naruto pushing Kakashi out of the blast then he remembers his young self pushing Kakashi away while a rock falls on him. And if Kishimoto wants to really go over the top with this emotional stuff he could even let Orochimaru summon Rin with Edo Tensei, since it was already suggested that Orochi possibly discovered Tobi's real identity, and then Rin could be a good emotional weapon against Obito. But of course the latter is very unrealistic, even if it could be popular with fans of Team-Minato of the Kakashi gaiden (also it was never explained how Rin died, and having it explained by her seems better than kakashi).

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by yogotah

I just don't see him converting but what I could see is, at the point of his defeat, realize that Naruto was right, and have a near death revelation and convert right before his death.

If that's what you had in mind, then that seems more plausible to me...though still not what I would want to see.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

But here there's more to it, we have Kakashi who always believed in Obito, and i think that Kishimoto will restore this belief in the very end, if Obito sacrifices his life at the last moment to save the good guys from Madara.

I'd say there's a 99.9% chance of obito realizing his mistake and redeeming himself by either doing away with madara or trying to in a futile attempt right before his death. it's pretty easy to predict this. obito = darth vader. madara = emperor palpatine. it really is that simple of an analogy and it's bound to happen that obito is in some way redeemed by the very fact that he was kakashi's friend at one point and that kakashi felt so strongly for him after his apparent death. the only question is whether madara will survive obito's eventual treachery or not. if it happens prior to hashirama getting there, then obito will die in vain but at least be somewhat redeemed by his last action

[Dengar]

Well either way the conditions for that haven't been met yet. Right now he is still dead set on creating an illusionary world.

Unless he decides to turn totally at random without having actually been proven wrong. Because of something silly like "Kakashi's feeling".

[gibits]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Yeah so you can learn how it works, but eventually you reach the cap of how skilled you can get at something. There are people who spend their whole lives practicing a particular type of sport, but never achieve olympic level.

That's true but there is no indication that Naruto isn't a THE top dog of the series. If anything part 2 has shown us that there really isn't anything Naruto can't do.
Why was he able to go sage mode better than Jiraiya? Just because. Why is his tailed beast mode better than B's? Just because. Why is he able to do a chakra bomb while not in full kyuubi mode? Just because.
If you aren't getting the picture, Naruto's massive power ups really have no explanation other than natural talent. This is even justified in his lineage, son of a lost, legendary clan and Minato, the prodigy badass normal. Who else alive has a better pedigree than Naruto? Kishi basically is knocking us over the head with how special Naruto is.

[Lunarskylar]

I don't think brain damage no jutsu can be reversed that easily.. so i don't see much hope for obito, unless hashirama reveals the cure

Since tobirama and hashirama were talking about his "cells" as well as the reason for hashirama's death still being unclear... (hopefully this hasn't already been mentioned) but I think hashirama was a senju science experiment from the get go, and he died prematurely

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Naruto isn't really good at "everything". He seems predisposed to jutsu that favor power over complexity. Then makes up for that by planning his moves.

Rasengan and its Fuuton versions are the most complex shape manipulation to date in this manga and while Naruto technically can't do them on his own it doesn't matter for the same reason as always : Kage Bunshin and/or Kyubi chakra.
There is nothing too powerful thanks to Kurama, nothing too complex thanks to additional pairs of arms and nothing too long thanks KB training and lately virtual instant mastery over any and everything.

[Dengar]

I have not yet looked at it that way, and I understand your viewpoint, but I don't think Rasengan is actually "complex" and more like "tough to do". I mean, all it entails is focusing explosive power into one point without it actually exploding. That's not complex. Just ludicrously difficult. There's not even any hand gestures involved. However, only someone with abnormal determination like Naruto can pull it off.

I will immediately admit however that being all buddy-buddy with Kurama opens up a LOT of possibilities. And I never said that this was it for Naruto's growth. I just said that he should stick to jutsu that are up his alley, and not try to learn EVERYTHING.