Sword Art Online - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Kafriel]

Originally Posted by Clarste

It's not like Heathcliff is a master swordsman in real life either though.

Swordsmen don't use shields in real life^^

Anyway, the point is, Kirito is too used to system assists to fully develop his own style, but given some time I think he can get over it...unless he gets dragged in another MMO and quits kendo after all.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Swordsmen don't use shields in real life^^

Depends on when and where you're talking about. Modern sword-sports usually don't though.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think that, given the context of the statement she makes ("try your best"), the gesture at the time, and the flashback that followed (which was directly connected to the statement)... I think she's saying that she intends to no longer lie about her own feelings for Kazuto, even though she also realizes that his heart is set on Asuna right now.

Then why the crying? The crying reminds me of a slightly similar scene in Clannad, in which acceptance of romantic loss sets in, causing a strong emotional reaction.

If you're right about how to interpret her line here, then shouldn't we see a face of determination, and not crying that looks like a person mourning inescapable loss?

[Jehuty]

Originally Posted by Zeriand

Uh, given that he's been fighting using swords for like 2 years straight in SAO, I actually think that Kirito did exceptionally POOR against Suguha because one, he doesn't follow Kendo rules. Two, the techniques he's learned in SAO is used to kill. Three, well, he's practically trained in the virtual world day and night in sword fighting, even if some of them are non-applicable in real life.

The only disadvantage he has against Suguha was his weak body, and his misconception that certain sword skills in VR would work in real life. Suguha's Kendo training would've confined her to hitting the head, side and chest (I think?) area only, and Suguha WON. That is kind of... upsetting.

There's one thing that I find weird, and that's Suguha's surprise at how good Kirito is at swordfighting. I mean, c'mon, he's trapped in a virtual world called Sword Arts Online, why would you ever be surprised that he's giving you one helluva sword challenge? She should've been surprised that he didn't faceroll her instead!

I won't reiterate what others have said, but do allow me to add something else, as well: Having had training in a VR enviroment does not mean the same applies for RL. If you noticed, Kirito lost his footing -- the physics are completely different in real life as your weight will shift as you swing and move your body about. Also, please remember that he is still recovering from having spent 2 years in a coma -- his body seems to look back to normal, but I'm sure there are certain things he isn't quite used to yet. He bragged about great improvement during rehab, but it's still rehab - you will have some kind of impairment still.

Kirito did exceptionally well despite this. Plus, he still has the potential to be much, much better still. His instinct is pretty good, also note she mentioned how this seemed like second nature to him. he just needs to learn the basics of kendo and work from his way up -- he is already familiar with danger and what a hesitant attitude can mean in a battle. Now he just needs to train his body to keep up with him.

This is why I like SAO so much. This is such a world out of the ordinary, but they still remember to apply little details like this. I'm not too sure about the NTR going in there, and the anime team did omit a lot of important bits from the novel (from what I've seen in the forums, at least. I haven't read the novel).

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Jehuty

Kirito did exceptionally well despite this. Plus, he still has the potential to be much, much better still. His instinct is pretty good, also note she mentioned how this seemed like second nature to him. he just needs to learn the basics of kendo and work from his way up -- he is already familiar with danger and what a hesitant attitude can mean in a battle. Now he just needs to train his body to keep up with him.

I'm sure he knows the basics of kendo since he trained in it as a kid. It's more likely that knowing those basics are what allowed him to do so well in SAO.

[Zeriand]

Well, I concede that Kirito wasn't able to go all out due to his body condition, but I still think that he could've put on a better fight. Certainly Kendo was adapted from real sword fight (like every other martial arts in the world duh), but with the exception of the throat thrust, they're mostly meant to be non-lethal. Whereas Kirito has been fighting in SAO, with all his experiences trained to kill something.

You might argue that the monsters have limited AI, but as Kirito has mentioned before, the monsters gets more and more random for each floor they've gone upwards, and if I'm not mistaken he has fought the level 70 Lizard thing for hours just to induce the AI into using similar attack patterns and counterattack from there. That is one wtf AI in my opinion, and for Kirito to do that SOLO is even crazier.

Well, still, I guess Suguha did have the advantage and should win. Like you guys said, she did train for a longer time (despite less hours) than her brother. And for a patient like Kirito to force her all out is... I guess... amazing?

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Zeriand

Well, I concede that Kirito wasn't able to go all out due to his body condition, but I still think that he could've put on a better fight. Certainly Kendo was adapted from real sword fight (like every other martial arts in the world duh), but with the exception of the throat thrust, they're mostly meant to be non-lethal. Whereas Kirito has been fighting in SAO, with all his experiences trained to kill something.

I shouldn't need to point out that killing something in a video game is just a matter of reducing their health points until it reaches zero. It's just as much a game of points as kendo. Just because it's a matter of life and death doesn't mean it's realistic. They could have been trapped in a VR table tennis simulator and played table tennis with their life on the line, but that would just make them really good at table tennis. It doesn't mean they have real battle experience.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by ronelm2000

At least appreciate the fact that it (Vol. 3) was at least made around 2005 (?)... a time when incest was... not so common.

Not true.
The popularity of sister (incest, cousin, adopted, step, etc) romance theme as an otaku fad goes way back.

One of the most popular franchise of this said genre, Sister Princess, was around since 1999.
Natural, the popular eroge with the subject, was 1998.

In fact, the first Imouto-romance fad came around the time Doukyuusei 2 and Natural was popular, in the late 90s, not to mention Kana-imouto.
Sister Princess carried the fad through the early 2000s, and the early 2000s titles often started to incorporate the Imouto cliche.

Sure, the theme has been around for decades in shoujo manga, but its popularity in otaku culture first hit boom in late 90s and florished in early 2000s, then after that it became a inheritent cliche running deep for a decade, and then resurfaced as a fad again around 2010 with the explosion of shitty Light Novels cashing in on the theme.

If anything, 2005 was right in the middle of the boom.

Originally Posted by Znail

One example does not make something common.

As someone who actually lived through the otaku fads of the past three decades, I can tell you there's well more than dozens of examples, bud! And I'm telling you as a matter of fact: Imouto cliche was popularized already in the early 2000s.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, the Imouto-relationship genre was so popular and out of control, with hundreds of titles coming out during the late 90s to early 2000s, the self-censorship group Softrin decided to tighten the regulation on it, banning incest theme from being used on adult game titles or else lose softrin sticker of approval. Shortly after this move was made, many of the game titles started using "step-sister" as the way to work around the incest problem, but still provide the otaku with imouto relationship fix. This carried on to other market in the otaku community, making "sister that's not a direct sibling" a popoular theme.
Softrin finally realized the futile effect of this silly ban, and lifted it in 04.

I can go on, and on, bringing hundreds of examples to the table, hell, I experienced first-hand what the explosion of popularity was like back in 98-2004 myself.
Buuuut I think I've already made my point.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Clarste

I shouldn't need to point out that killing something in a video game is just a matter of reducing their health points until it reaches zero. It's just as much a game of points as kendo. Just because it's a matter of life and death doesn't mean it's realistic. They could have been trapped in a VR table tennis simulator and played table tennis with their life on the line, but that would just make them really good at table tennis. It doesn't mean they have real battle experience.

Bingo, remember, SAO was still a video game, albeit with a novel interface, it was NOT a combat simulator.

SAO can no more train sword masters then Microsoft Flight Simulator can train combat pilots

[halibonga]

so much suffering, feels bad to be kirito man

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Then why the crying? The crying reminds me of a slightly similar scene in Clannad, in which acceptance of romantic loss sets in, causing a strong emotional reaction.

If you're right about how to interpret her line here, then shouldn't we see a face of determination, and not crying that looks like a person mourning inescapable loss?

I don't think her tears at the very end of the sequence as she trails off to sleep constitute either mourning or acceptance, but just the fact that she's in pain. The key scene was the one that setup the whole situation, where she said to Kazuto "You shouldn't give up on the one you love so easily..." and which followed in narration with "And I need to stop lying to myself as well...". The context of that comment was not that Kazuto loves Asuna, it's that you shouldn't give up on the one you love. In that scene, she was not crying. Connect it to the flashback that follows (about her not believing that they're really cousins), and it just sets up clearly that she's in love with him.

So anyway, I don't think we can conclude from this scene that she's given up yet. Besides, they only just introduced the plot element, so it's way too early for her to accept it just yet -- there's no point introducing an unrequited love interest and having them accept it at the same moment. She does realize that Kazuto only sees Asuna right now, but she has kind of been out of his life for the last two years. I think she isn't out of chances to convey her feelings yet, even if the odds of Kazuto accepting are (we know, and to a degree she knows) essentially zero.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by Clarste

It doesn't mean they have real battle experience.

I'd say your rather doing them a disservice by saying they don't have real battle experience, seeing as they were fighting for their lives in a very realistic manner, saw friends die, and killed people. They're going to be plenty of people traumatized, and displaying the sort of PTSD, and reluctance to discuss parts of their experience that you see in war veterans.

What they don't have is real world battle experience. The main differences being that what is physical possible for a given body frame will be very different, the lack of pain and accumulated injury in VR, and blows that would cripple or kill them iin the real world would merely drastically decrease their HP in the game.

The last being the least important given the high priority of not taking such hits in the game due to the risk.

The bottom line being that they've accumulated lots of combat experience, but it's not a one to one transfer as we saw this episode. It's immensely helpful, but they'd still need to train in the real world to adjust to the differences.

Originally Posted by kyp275

Bingo, remember, SAO was still a video game, albeit with a novel interface, it was NOT a combat simulator.

SAO can no more train sword masters then Microsoft Flight Simulator can train combat pilots

Um, Microsoft Flight Simulator, no. Microsoft Full Dive VR Flight Simulator, assuming it's properly made to match real planes, pretty much could. The military has a long history of using flight simulators as part of training, and a VR one could be the best flight simulator ever. Even assuming they make some trade offs to make it more of a game, it could still be immensely helpful in training.

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Krono

Um, Microsoft Flight Simulator, no. Microsoft Full Dive VR Flight Simulator, assuming it's properly made to match real planes, pretty much could. The military has a long history of using flight simulators as part of training, and a VR one could be the best flight simulator ever. Even assuming they make some trade offs to make it more of a game, it could still be immensely helpful in training.

But SAO isn't a realistic fight simulator -- you can't one-hit kill someone by stabbing them through the heart or slashing their throat.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Krono

I'd say your rather doing them a disservice by saying they don't have real battle experience, seeing as they were fighting for their lives in a very realistic manner, saw friends die, and killed people. They're going to be plenty of people traumatized, and displaying the sort of PTSD, and reluctance to discuss parts of their experience that you see in war veterans.

They had a "unique" experience, whether that can be classified as "real battle experience" on the other hand is hard to say, and frankly is more of a matter of semantics IMO.

Originally Posted by Krono

What they don't have is real world battle experience. The main differences being that what is physical possible for a given body frame will be very different, the lack of pain and accumulated injury in VR, and blows that would cripple or kill them iin the real world would merely drastically decrease their HP in the game.

The last being the least important given the high priority of not taking such hits in the game due to the risk.

TBH, you're over-simplifying things here a bit, and frankly it's to be expected as not many people actually have real world battle experience. Fatigue, stress, pain, injury, your body's physiological reactions to these stimulus, amongst other things, are not things that can remotely begin to be replicated in SAO's VR environment.

And they're not the least important. If anything, they're some, if not the most important factors on a real battlefield.

Originally Posted by Krono

Um, Microsoft Flight Simulator, no. Microsoft Full Dive VR Flight Simulator, assuming it's properly made to match real planes, pretty much could. The military has a long history of using flight simulators as part of training, and a VR one could be the best flight simulator ever. Even assuming they make some trade offs to make it more of a game, it could still be immensely helpful in training.

Nope.

Simulators are used as complementary tools in military training, primarily due to cost/time considerations. It doesn't matter how many hours you log in a simulator, it does not replace the actual hours that you'd need to log in an actual plane.

A VR simulator, especially one at SAO's level, cannot replicate the myriad of physical forces that will be exerted on a pilot's body, it can't accurately replicate how a user's body will react in a real world scenario, which greatly limits its usefulness as a primary training tool. There's a reason why we're still using live-fire range for training, instead of using only the ISMT - the same principle goes for both military and civilian pilots.

Now if you're talking about a Holodeck, that's another story

[Jehuty]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

But SAO isn't a realistic fight simulator -- you can't one-hit kill someone by stabbing them through the heart or slashing their throat.

It sort of was in the last episode on the previous arc. I think it depends on where you're struck for it to count as a one-hit kill. Think of it as critical hit areas.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Jehuty

It sort of was in the last episode on the previous arc. I think it depends on where you're struck for it to count as a one-hit kill. Think of it as critical hit areas.

Nah, it was probably just numbers game, played to cinematic effect. If there was such area, Kirito wouldn't just stand there receiving blows like in that Silica arc.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Jehuty

It sort of was in the last episode on the previous arc. I think it depends on where you're struck for it to count as a one-hit kill. Think of it as critical hit areas.

The reason why Kirito could defeat Heathcliff with one hit was left out of the anime.

Spoiler for Comparsion to the Light Novel:

Asuna screamed tearfully from behind me. But I didn't look back. I shifted my right foot backwards, brought my left sword forward while lowering my right sword, and entered my stance.

Kayaba manipulated the window with his left hand and readjusted our HP bars to the same level. It was just before the red zone, where a single, strong hit would decide the fight.

After that, the system message [changed into mortal object] appeared above his head. Kayaba then closed the windows, pulled out the sword he had dug into the ground, and raised it behind his cross-shaped shield.

[Zeriand]

Originally Posted by kyp275

They had a "unique" experience, whether that can be classified as "real battle experience" on the other hand is hard to say, and frankly is more of a matter of semantics IMO.



TBH, you're over-simplifying things here a bit, and frankly it's to be expected as not many people actually have real world battle experience. Fatigue, stress, pain, injury, your body's physiological reactions to these stimulus, amongst other things, are not things that can remotely begin to be replicated in SAO's VR environment.

And they're not the least important. If anything, they're some, if not the most important factors on a real battlefield.




Nope.

Simulators are used as complementary tools in military training, primarily due to cost/time considerations. It doesn't matter how many hours you log in a simulator, it does not replace the actual hours that you'd need to log in an actual plane.

A VR simulator, especially one at SAO's level, cannot replicate the myriad of physical forces that will be exerted on a pilot's body, it can't accurately replicate how a user's body will react in a real world scenario, which greatly limits its usefulness as a primary training tool. There's a reason why we're still using live-fire range for training, instead of using only the ISMT - the same principle goes for both military and civilian pilots.

Now if you're talking about a Holodeck, that's another story

We're talking about SAO here you know, the VR device that trapped thousands of people inside a virtual world? This 'simulator' can simulate absolutely everything you want?

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Zeriand

We're talking about SAO here you know, the VR device that trapped thousands of people inside a virtual world? This 'simulator' can simulate absolutely everything you want?

But it can't.

Spoiler for background info on SAO server:

The VR tech employed by SAO is good, but actually still nowhere near lifelike. It is not able to replicate many things, such as grass or water, nor senses such as touch (and pain is completely removed) accurately, in large part due to technological limitation. Think of it as a super HD VR world, which while looks and feels leaps and bounds beyond playing games on a 2D monitor, nevertheless remains distinctively artificial. It may be advanced compared to what we have today, but it is still very rudimentary.

this isn't really conveyed well in the anime, but it's something that's brought up several times in the novel.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Nope.

Simulators are used as complementary tools in military training, primarily due to cost/time considerations. It doesn't matter how many hours you log in a simulator, it does not replace the actual hours that you'd need to log in an actual plane.

A VR simulator, especially one at SAO's level, cannot replicate the myriad of physical forces that will be exerted on a pilot's body, it can't accurately replicate how a user's body will react in a real world scenario, which greatly limits its usefulness as a primary training tool. There's a reason why we're still using live-fire range for training, instead of using only the ISMT - the same principle goes for both military and civilian pilots.

Now if you're talking about a Holodeck, that's another story

The problem with this is that SAO really does act like a holodeck. Aside from the removal of pain it was created to be as realistic to the players as possible. Kirito even mentioned how much lighter the kendo sword was compared to his virtual blades. SAO imitated real world physics very well, to the players trapped it really did feel like living in another world.