The Novel and Manga of Haruhi Suzumiya

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Spoiler for Same:

I agree with it. Similar to how Sighs was made so we (and Kyon) could understand what Haruhi's powers could do if went loose, I believe the new book is likely to show what happen if Haruhi discover everything in the 'wrong way'/'bad time'. As knowing all her friends are hiding things from her, she would also discover there is a very real danger, including to herself, maybe. It is all worse if she discover it for herself (instead having Kyon telling her), specially if Kyon does, indeed, 'defect' to the enemies (even if just to protect Yuki, who said Haruhi will know it?). Yeah, I say β timeline is doomed, and who will end it is Haruhi herself. I am curious if she will just destroy everything (as Itsuki says) or if she will just part to another world she create (as Yuki defend).

Spoiler for speculation:

A few years back I gave my speculative take on it (briefly, just as a generic outline) that the β timeline will go under after the Anti-Dan effectively wins, taking Haruhi's power and grafting it onto Sasaki. Unfortunately, Sasaki is not quite as receptive to her apotheosis as the Anti-Dan thought she would be, and, after some interference from the α-verse, her inability to "hold it together" (in more ways than one) effectively causes the whole β-verse to disappear in a puff of illogic. Due to some creative interactions, just how much that ends up affecting the α-verse is left open to some speculation...

[cnet128]

Originally Posted by Heatth

To end it, a small question to cnet128: Make things even more confusing by changing the translation of 'SOS' and inventin yet another translation for Yuki's boss? Not that I want to complain, or that your translation is bad (I actually thing your adaption of SOS is better then Baka-Tsuki/official translation). Just found it curious.

That's just kind of how I go about translating things in general. I do usually take into account the fan-translations and official translations that are in circulation, and if I like them, then I generally use them myself. "Canopy Domain", for instance, has always sounded just right to me, and 'esper', though it's a much more obscure term than "chounouryokusha" and far from being the most literal translation, has a certain ring to it and feels so much an integral part of the series at this point that I feel like it would be wrong not to use it.

But at the same time, if I don't feel entirely happy with an existing translation or I feel I have a better alternative, I don't hesitate to change things around. It's kind of an "if I'm going to the trouble of writing this thing, I might as well make sure it's in the form I feel most satisfied with" philosophy. Same reason why I make sure to stick firmly to my native British English and use as few definite Americanisms as humanly possible.

In the case of the SOS Brigade backronym, the classic "Saving the World by Overloading it with Fun" version has never sounded quite right to me, since there's nothing in the original about "saving" anything. Admittedly it's a tough deal to try and come up with something that's close to the original and retains the acronym, and I'm not completely satisfied with my own version either, but I think it's better than that one. The official "Spreading Excitement All Over the World" version is actually pretty good as well, but I dunno, I just didn't feel like using it. The acronym itself is a bit more of a stretch than necessary with that one, after all. And it's not like I could use it exactly in its original form anyway, since it uses the reversed name order for Haruhi. So I came up with my own. *shrug*

The "Data Integration Consciousness" one, I feel much more strongly about. "Shinentai" just sounds to me like it's begging to be translated as "consciousness". And rendering it as "Thought Entity" (which I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, is the most common version?) just makes the full name sound like a bit of a mess. "Data Integration Thought Entity" just sounds like a jumble of words. "Data Integration Consciousness" sounds like the original Japanese does - a consciousness that integrates data. (And besides, there are so many different versions of that particular term out there that it's not like there was one definite accepted version for me to use in the first place. ~~)

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it a little more, I'm starting to feel like "Integrated Data Consciousness" would be closer still to the original. Dammit. I'll have to make a call on that one later. But the "consciousness" part, I know I'm sticking with! >_<

While we're at it, what other terminology is there that I've used in the translation...? Well, I recall "Data Control Zone". I have no idea how that's been rendered before, so for all I know I could be in line with the norm, but I could equally be way out. It sounds right to me, though, and that's what counts. "Sealed Space" also came up once or twice; I'm pretty sure the norm for that one is "Closed Space", but I've always felt that "closed" doesn't quite convey the same sense of "locked away" that "heisa" does (heck, the second kanji of the compound means "chain"), hence my alternative. Come to think of it, "dominant faction" and "radical faction" themselves kind of qualify, too; I'm pretty sure "radical faction" is widely-used, but I have no idea how others have rendered "dominant faction".

Yeah, I think that's pretty much everything. If you have any other queries or comments on my translation, then please don't hesitate to voice them, since I'm only too happy to discuss. I take quite a bit of pride and satisfaction in my translations, and this is easily the biggest and most engaging job I've undertaken yet, so I'd be plenty interested to hear anything people have to say!

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by cnet128

That's just kind of how I go about translating things in general. I do usually take into account the fan-translations and official translations that are in circulation, and if I like them, then I generally use them myself. "Canopy Domain", for instance, has always sounded just right to me, and 'esper', though it's a much more obscure term than "chounouryokusha" and far from being the most literal translation, has a certain ring to it and feels so much an integral part of the series at this point that I feel like it would be wrong not to use it.

But at the same time, if I don't feel entirely happy with an existing translation or I feel I have a better alternative, I don't hesitate to change things around. It's kind of an "if I'm going to the trouble of writing this thing, I might as well make sure it's in the form I feel most satisfied with" philosophy. Same reason why I make sure to stick firmly to my native British English and use as few definite Americanisms as humanly possible.

In the case of the SOS Brigade backronym, the classic "Saving the World by Overloading it with Fun" version has never sounded quite right to me, since there's nothing in the original about "saving" anything. Admittedly it's a tough deal to try and come up with something that's close to the original and retains the acronym, and I'm not completely satisfied with my own version either, but I think it's better than that one. The official "Spreading Excitement All Over the World" version is actually pretty good as well, but I dunno, I just didn't feel like using it. The acronym itself is a bit more of a stretch than necessary with that one, after all. And it's not like I could use it exactly in its original form anyway, since it uses the reversed name order for Haruhi. So I came up with my own. *shrug*

The "Data Integration Consciousness" one, I feel much more strongly about. "Shinentai" just sounds to me like it's begging to be translated as "consciousness". And rendering it as "Thought Entity" (which I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, is the most common version?) just makes the full name sound like a bit of a mess. "Data Integration Thought Entity" just sounds like a jumble of words. "Data Integration Consciousness" sounds like the original Japanese does - a consciousness that integrates data. (And besides, there are so many different versions of that particular term out there that it's not like there was one definite accepted version for me to use in the first place. ~~)

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it a little more, I'm starting to feel like "Integrated Data Consciousness" would be closer still to the original. Dammit. I'll have to make a call on that one later. But the "consciousness" part, I know I'm sticking with! >_<

While we're at it, what other terminology is there that I've used in the translation...? Well, I recall "Data Control Zone". I have no idea how that's been rendered before, so for all I know I could be in line with the norm, but I could equally be way out. It sounds right to me, though, and that's what counts. "Sealed Space" also came up once or twice; I'm pretty sure the norm for that one is "Closed Space", but I've always felt that "closed" doesn't quite convey the same sense of "locked away" that "heisa" does (heck, the second kanji of the compound means "chain"), hence my alternative. Come to think of it, "dominant faction" and "radical faction" themselves kind of qualify, too; I'm pretty sure "radical faction" is widely-used, but I have no idea how others have rendered "dominant faction".

Yeah, I think that's pretty much everything. If you have any other queries or comments on my translation, then please don't hesitate to voice them, since I'm only too happy to discuss. I take quite a bit of pride and satisfaction in my translations, and this is easily the biggest and most engaging job I've undertaken yet, so I'd be plenty interested to hear anything people have to say!

Baka-Tsuki used Integrated Data Sentient Entity (IDSE), which I guess would be the kissing cousin of Integrated Data Consciousness. I've also seen Data Integration Thought Entity (DITE), which is probably the next most common. And of course, the "official" translation from the novels is Data Overmind, which I like from the perspective that it gives that hokey 50's alien invasion movie vibe, and is a good attempt at compressing the original term to a not-too-unwieldy level while keeping the same or similar conotation, but has recently struck me as just being too short. There's something about Yuki using overlong words that just makes sense... ^_^

And speaking of short, I'm not sure I've ever gotten the significance, if any, behind the term Canopy Domain. Granted, I'm very happy you used that rather than Sky Canopy Dominion or any of the other terms out there, because the obvious point in the IDSE giving it a different name was to give it a shorter name. And anything's better than Macrospatial Cosmic Whatdeflip or however Baka-Tsuki ended up translating it. ("Macrospatial" sounds like one of those words people make up to "technically" mean what they need it to, but probably exists already and doesn't really mean what they think it does...) Any particular insight as a translator into how you get Canopy Domain from "Tengai Ryouiki" (as opposed to "Dome Territory", for instance) and what you think it conveys?

[cnet128]

Ah, "Data Overmind" is the official one, is it? I had wondered where that one fitted in. Yeah, never liked that one either. Cute, but as you say, too short, and it's not exactly the closest you can get to the original. And I'm not sure I think the word really suits the Consciousness either.

As for the "Canopy Domain" translation, well, it just seems like a bit of a no-brainer IMO. "Canopy" is given as a translation for "tengai" in just about every dictionary I've ever checked. I believe the word "tengai" refers most specifically to a type of silk overhanging used for religious purposes, and I think the English "canopy" carries similar connotations of refinement and a higher 'significance' than any similar terms that might be substituted. I also think the word "canopy" can evoke a sense of a vast, overarching, untouchable presence (the "canopy layer" of a rainforest always comes to mind), which both reflects the literal meaning of the characters of "tengai" (a "covering for the heavens") and seems to suit the nature of the Canopy Domain itself rather well.

As for "ryouiki", well, I suppose it can be translated as "territory" just as easily as "domain", but "domain" just sounds so much better, don't you think? "Territory" sounds a little too physical, too immediate, whereas "domain" sounds like something more abstract and remote.

And when it comes down to it, "Canopy Domain" just sounds like an aesthetically appealing name for something in a way that the likes of "Sky Canopy Dominion" and "Dome Territory" really don't.

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

("Macrospatial" sounds like one of those words people make up to "technically" mean what they need it to, but probably exists already and doesn't really mean what they think it does...)

That one was actually my fault, I guess. They had a poll topic on the Baka-Tsuki forum at the time for suggested translations and I came up with that and it won. They wanted a word for something like "wide-area" and I thought "macrospatial" sounded suitably technobabbly. I think what's more important than what it means is that it confuses Kyon, so made-up confusing words are probably good in that sense. I agree that the overall name is pretty stupid, but that's why they came up with a nickname, right?

[Heatth]

Thanks for your reply, cnet. I just want to say again I wasn't complaining of your translation nor I thought it was bad, I think it was pretty good, actually. Just found weird you had the trouble of making your own translation when there are so many already (I am very happy you didn't used the dumb 'Data Overmind, tough). Thanks for your explanation.

Btw, I always found the word 'Canopy' very weird myself, but it is just because my dictionary translate it as 'treetop' and 'building top', which is not as cool as 'macrospatial' or whatever. =P

PP:
Checking back now, you, cnet, have also changed both Suou Kuyou and Ryouko's name. Most, including the official version, just drop the 'u' from Ryouko. This is quite common, I have seen many names ending with '-tarou' dropping that 'u' as well. A error, in my opinion, since it should also change the pronunciation. For Suou, the first name is the same in Baka-Tsuki's, however they spelled Kuyoh insted. I supose it is possible the official translation goes for Kuyo Suo.

Just a small curiosity.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Thanks for your reply, cnet. I just want to say again I wasn't complaining of your translation nor I thought it was bad, I think it was pretty good, actually. Just found weird you had the trouble of making your own translation when there are so many already (I am very happy you didn't used the dumb 'Data Overmind, tough). Thanks for your explanation.

Btw, I always found the word 'Canopy' very weird myself, but it is just because my dictionary translate it as 'treetop' and 'building top', which is not as cool as 'macrospatial' or whatever. =P

PP:
Checking back now, you, cnet, have also changed both Suou Kuyou and Ryouko's name. Most, including the official version, just drop the 'u' from Ryouko. This is quite common, I have seen many names ending with '-tarou' dropping that 'u' as well. A error, in my opinion, since it should also change the pronunciation. For Suou, the first name is the same in Baka-Tsuki's, however they spelled Kuyoh insted. I supose it is possible the official translation goes for Kuyo Suo.

Just a small curiosity.

I've run into that as well... I think it's just a matter of convenience in a lot of cases. The "ou" (or "oh" as I've also seen it), or "ō" as Wikipedia prefers (which bugs me, as it's not pronounced the same way as the "ō" they taught us when I was in school), is the correct pronunciation, of course: a drawn-out "o". But the sad truth is that either way that it's spelled, most fans are going to pronounce it with a short "o", considering there is no English counterpart to the sound, and the closest thing, "oo", is a different vowel sound (actually multiple different vowel sounds, depending upon the word) altogether. Since it doesn't make much difference to most people, and those who know the difference are still going to know who you're talking about in most cases, it's easier just to leave off the "u" (or the "h").

[cnet128]

Yes, well, romanisation issues are something you find everywhere ~~

The method of romanisation that's generally considered most "correct" is revised Hepburn romanisation (I believe this is what Wikipedia uses, by and large), which represents long vowels with macrons (Ryōko, Suō Kuyō). Of the other existing systems, Kunrei and Nihon-shiki romanisation represent them with a circumflex (Ryôko, Suô Kuyô) and modified Hepburn represents them by doubling the vowel (Ryooko, Suoo Kuyoo).

In practice, though, a lot of "official" romanisations that use Hepburn simply don't bother with the macrons at all, leaving it ambiguous whether the vowel is long or short. (That would make it Ryoko and Suo Kuyo.) Common reasons include the fact that they're too much trouble to type, or that they just make things look unnecessarily complicated. This is the system most commonly seen for things like Japanese names in English texts (including official translations of most manga, and probably the official English Haruhi novels). It's also where the English names for things like "Tokyo" come from (which would be rendered Tōkyō in Hepburn, and so on). Haruhi illustrator Noizi Ito's official family name comes from this practice as well, though her given name is a whole different issue (in Hepburn, she would be "Itō Noiji").

Fan translations, on the other hand, tend to show an overwhelming preference for a method that is used in none of the established romanisation systems, which is to simply write the long vowels as they're represented in kana. So "ou" for long "o" (except for the occasional word that contains "oo"), "uu" for long "u", and so on.

Adding "h" to indicate long vowels (Ryohko, Suoh Kuyoh) is yet another non-standard practice that is sometimes used, particularly in names, for its aesthetic value (along with the "ou" and "oo" forms, it's one of the few non-Hepburn variants that are officially allowed to be used on passports).

Personally, in my translations, I almost always stick to using the write-the-kana-as-they-appear method, simply because it's what I'm used to and it looks most natural to me. I can appreciate some of the other versions from an aesthetic perspective, but I wouldn't generally choose to use them. And I think there is something to be said for personal consistency. So "Ryouko" and "Suou Kuyou" it is.

[Heatth]

Ah, well, I suppose there is no much difference. The way the vowels are pronunciated is so different from English that people are likely to say it incorrectly anyway.

Still, giving clues for who understand a bit of Japanese is useful, so dropping that extra 'u' is pretty annoying to me.

[PastPrime]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Spoiler for spoiler:

As for the first part, I wouldn't be "surprised" at all if beta!Haruhi figures everything out this book. In fact I suspect it's the primary meta reason why the author introduced a second timeline, being that it allows him to have an irreversible event occur without making the story irreversibly changed. He can have the "big reveal", and maybe even set beta!Kyon up to "get the girl" or do all kinds of stuff we'd never normally see, and then wipe it all out at the end when the beta!verse is invalidated somehow (Earth is blown up to make way for a hyperspace bypass or some such).

Originally Posted by Yumeka

Spoiler for sliders and parallel worlds:

Perhaps Kyon will be forced to choose between two worlds again.

Asahina-san's charming voice began to grow weak,
"Very soon you will be faced with a great divergence, a choice that would cause a great change to the future... If you chose the other side, then it... um... it wouldn't be good for our future."

I suddenly felt stiff for no reason, and I had wanted to turn and face Asahina-san. Damn, why can't I turn my face!?

"But it doesn't matter, because I can trust you, right?"


It seems that Kyon will be the one to decide between the timelines. And, considering that Mikuru Big seems worried about his choice it would appear that neither timeline leads to catastrophic results.

[Game8910]

Originally Posted by PastPrime

Asahina-san's charming voice began to grow weak,
"Very soon you will be faced with a great divergence, a choice that would cause a great change to the future... If you chose the other side, then it... um... it wouldn't be good for our future."

I suddenly felt stiff for no reason, and I had wanted to turn and face Asahina-san. Damn, why can't I turn my face!?

"But it doesn't matter, because I can trust you, right?"


It seems that Kyon will be the one to decide between the timelines. And, considering that Mikuru Big seems worried about his choice it would appear that neither timeline leads to catastrophic results.

wait where did this come from again?

[FDW]

Originally Posted by Game8910

wait where did this come from again?

I believe it's the seventh book, Intrigues.

[Yumeka]

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by PastPrime

Asahina-san's charming voice began to grow weak,
"Very soon you will be faced with a great divergence, a choice that would cause a great change to the future... If you chose the other side, then it... um... it wouldn't be good for our future."

I suddenly felt stiff for no reason, and I had wanted to turn and face Asahina-san. Damn, why can't I turn my face!?

"But it doesn't matter, because I can trust you, right?"


It seems that Kyon will be the one to decide between the timelines. And, considering that Mikuru Big seems worried about his choice it would appear that neither timeline leads to catastrophic results.

Spoiler:

I wonder which "side" she means "wouldn't be good for our future," the alpha or the beta timeline? Or by "side" does she mean Kyon's choice of siding with the anti-SOS Brigade or not? Whatever it's referring to, it would be pretty amazing if Tanigawa already had future events for the story planned out since way back then.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Yumeka

Spoiler:

I wonder which "side" she means "wouldn't be good for our future," the alpha or the beta timeline? Or by "side" does she mean Kyon's choice of siding with the anti-SOS Brigade or not? Whatever it's referring to, it would be pretty amazing if Tanigawa already had future events for the story planned out since way back then.

Spoiler for response to spoiler:

All the current developments have been foreshadowed since Voume 7 at least, with the introduction of Mikuru's and Itsuki's Anti-dan counterparts, but there have been less overt foreshadowing since at least Volume 6 (Melancholy of Asahina Mikuru) and Volume 5 (Snow Mountain Syndrome). In fact, in general, since Disappearance (arguably from Disappearance), the entire plot has become quite a bit more focused. The only really new developments in Volume 9 were Sasaki and Slider-tan, and the personification of the previously introduced (from SMS) Canopy Domain in Kuyou. So far in Volume 10, we've only got things building upon what came before (Kuyou, Kimidori, Asakura, even Yuki's illness), but there's still plenty of book left.

And it's always a lot easier to foreshadow things in a book series. The hints "hide" a lot better (they tend to stick out in visual formats), and there's just more "room" to put stuff when you're not constrained to 20 pages or 23 minutes a week. Not to diminish Tanigawa, but I'm just more impressed when you have a mangaka who's a virtuoso at foreshadowing, like Hiromu Arakawa or Ken Akamatsu, where they're able to fit such a myraid number of plot hooks into the background, and still churn out a more-or-less self-contained narrative every week (or month). Still love the way Tanigawa writes, though. He makes it look simple.

[Yumeka]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Spoiler for response to spoiler:

And it's always a lot easier to foreshadow things in a book series. The hints "hide" a lot better (they tend to stick out in visual formats), and there's just more "room" to put stuff when you're not constrained to 20 pages or 23 minutes a week. Not to diminish Tanigawa, but I'm just more impressed when you have a mangaka who's a virtuoso at foreshadowing, like Hiromu Arakawa or Ken Akamatsu, where they're able to fit such a myraid number of plot hooks into the background, and still churn out a more-or-less self-contained narrative every week (or month). Still love the way Tanigawa writes, though. He makes it look simple.

Spoiler:

I adore his writing too of course, but as I recall from reading past volumes, he's thrown out a ton of subtle, ambiguous foreshadowing - it usually just consists of a short line by Itsuki, Mikuru (big), or another character, or simply an observation by Kyon. I don't have any examples off the top of my head (they are very subtle) but I wonder how many will actually lead to something or if some of the ambiguities that are left open ended are meant to reflect the fact that we as the readers can't know ALL the answers, just as we can't know all the answers to things in real life. Part of the appeal of his style I suppose.

[Ice Block]

Oh, and another thing regarding translations. This has been brought up in the movie threads, but:

Replay the scene in the movie where Kyon shouts this line:

Take care of the John Smith who will shake the world.

He says:

Sekai wo ooini moriagerutame no John Smith wo yoroshiku.

Compare to the SOS brigade:

Sekai wo Ooini moriagerutame no Suzumiya Haruhi no dan

As this was the way it had been translated by Baka-Tsuki, is there any way to convey this lost reference in English?

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Ice Block

Oh, and another thing regarding translations. This has been brought up in the movie threads, but:

As this was the way it had been translated by Baka-Tsuki, is there any way to convey this lost reference in English?

Going by the official name for the SOS団 it would be "Take care of the John Smith who will save the world by overloading with fun" (or something similar).

Going for cnet translation it would be "Take care of the John Smith who will sow Seeds of Excitement in an Ordinary World" (or something similar).

That is it, assiming 'John Smith wo yoroshiku' does really means 'take care of the John Smith...'. In any case, the actual meaning don't really matter here. The reference (and the name 'John Smith', obviously) is the only important thing in this sentence (I doubt Kyon had any reason for saying it other then 'forcing' Haruhi to remember him). I believe Baka-Tsuki failed hard on that particular translation.

PP:
I believe that the most correct would be "...John Smith who saves..." or "...John Smith who sows...", actually. But I don't really know of what I am talking about

[CrowKenobi]

You would think that Haruhi got the name of the SOS-dan from what Kyon said about John Smith...

[Game8910]

oh wow....im more impressed now

[baltakatei]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Going by the official name for the SOS団 it would be "Take care of the John Smith who will save the world by overloading with fun" (or something similar).

Going for cnet translation it would be "Take care of the John Smith who will sow Seeds of Excitement in an Ordinary World" (or something similar).

That is it, assiming 'John Smith wo yoroshiku' does really means 'take care of the John Smith...'. In any case, the actual meaning don't really matter here. The reference (and the name 'John Smith', obviously) is the only important thing in this sentence (I doubt Kyon had any reason for saying it other then 'forcing' Haruhi to remember him). I believe Baka-Tsuki failed hard on that particular translation.

PP:
I believe that the most correct would be "...John Smith who saves..." or "...John Smith who sows...", actually. But I don't really know of what I am talking about

Whatever the case, it helped Kyon know exactly what he had to say. No worries about having to use the correct grammar since he's pretty much just saying the SOS Brigade's name with "John Smith" inserted in.