[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Neofio3]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

If it were the case it would perhaps be believable but she went from an emotional wreck to perfectly calm, calculating with even a short Hannibal Lecture on Battler before pulling the trigger. Given the context of the final scene it felt completely out of character. It's not like they were in a heated argument or were fighting over the gun. Eva calmly raised and pointed the gun on him, spoke, and shot.

Hence the emotional beatdown beforehand. That can be explained in that Eva simply broke down at that point. If it were true, the poor woman believes the death of her husband and son were her fault (not to mention almost killing someone just a short while ago). Becoming out of character in that situation is completely understandable.

In any case, the fact that piece Battler's observations are one of the very few things we can go on in the series is not one I'd readily discard (the red truth is problematic as it is). And if it were a red herring, then piece Battler's observation has been shown to be untrustworthy, which just leaves us with the red truth to go on.

[Geekodot]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Uwah, a zero-love theory.

Regarding Episode 1, Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers.

I actually forgot that particular red truth and it kinda rapes my whole theory, because in that case Genji can't kill Eva and Hideyoshi... however it can be solved if the killer was Renon who had just arrived by boat. Genji can still have TRIED to kill Kanon in the parlor even though he didn't kill anyone.

For Episode 3, how do you explain Kinzo's corpse in the first twilight with that theory? Revealing it to the other siblings is the absolute last thing Natsuhi wants to do, so how and why did it get into the locked room chain? And how is it possible that the siblings collaborated on setting up that chain without them finding out that Kinzo was dead?

Actually, that raises an even better question. Given that the chain supposedly consists of people that all of the siblings killed, what was the purpose of setting up that chain in the first place, especially if they were just going to open it back up later anyway?

Kinzo is supposed to turn up dead during the family conference because he is always burnt to fake his death. In the second arc, Natsuhi and Krauss both died, so no one could have Kinzo burned, but in the third arc, Krauss or Natsuhi could have ordered some servant to prepare the boiler room with Kinzo without the other siblings knowing it or they could've done it themselves.

The siblings were actually going to kill Nanjo instead of Kinzo because they needed a sixth sacrifice and wouldn't kill the children, but for some reason they couldn't kill him. If I remember correctly, Nanjo slept in the guesthouse and that might've been unexpected by the adults (who thought that Kinzo was alive and that Nanjo would therefore have a room in the mansion). Krauss and Natsuhi knew of course that Nanjo would be in the guesthouse and prepared Kinzo in the boiler instead. They could easily sneak an extra room into the chain if the adults ultimately agreed to have 5 rooms because they couldn't get Nanjo.

This is backed up by how the first twilight in all arcs kills people that are in close proximity of each other. In the first arc, only people in the mansion died. In the second, only the adults discussing in the chapel died. In the third, all the servants having been called to the mansion died. In the fourth only those in the dining room died.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Geekodot

I actually forgot that particular red truth and it kinda rapes my whole theory, because in that case Genji can't kill Eva and Hideyoshi... however it can be solved if the killer was Renon who had just arrived by boeat. Genji can still have TRIED to kill Kanon in the parlor even though he didn't kill anyone.

That red texts actually could be regarded as referring particularly to 6-8 twilights, as Lambda was rebuking Battler's "Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo held guns and shot simultaneously to kill each other." In this interpretation, it did not necessarily rape your theory.

But who is Renon you were talking about? ノックス第1条。犯人は物語当初の登場人物以外を禁ズ！！

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

at least one servant didn't die until after 6:25am, and the chain was only supposed to have five rooms.

I think your theory is very good but what about the red text for when they discovered the bodies:
"All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!"

Also, you mixed up Kumasawa and Genji. The chain was:
1. Parlor (Shannon)
2. Second floor guest room (Kumasawa)
3. Third floor waiting room (Gohda)
4. VIP guest room (Genji)
5. Boiler room (Kinzo)
6. Chapel (Kanon)

Other than the theories I've posted in the past (destroyed keys theory, false conference theory, kanon wasn't "killed" theory) what if someone was hiding in the room?

Spoiler for Another theory for episode 3's first twilight:

Someone was hiding in one of the rooms and escaped after the bodies were discovered. The red text "There is no one hiding in the six rooms!" and "Only the victims are inside the rooms, and no other people exist inside the rooms." are not violated because after 7am, when the red text was used, the person who was hiding had already escaped.

The problem with this theory is "who was hiding in that room?"

For this theory, the one who was hiding the room would have to be one of the three cousins other than Battler. Rosa and Kyrie would have to be involved as well because they were supposed to check on them.

Would Jessica be involved with Kanon's murder? I don't think she would.
Would George be involved with Shannon's murder? No one would kill the person who just agreed to marry you.
Could Maria be the one who hid? Not possible for her to do it alone. I also don't think she would kill anyone. However, it's possible she helped finish the closed room chain by locking the final key inside. Maria already did something similar to this in episode 1 when Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were killed in the parlor's closed room but that another story.

In my opinion the only one who could have been hiding would be Maria. She didn't kill anyone but her job was the complete the closed room by sealing the final key inside.

The others who would have involved would have to be at least: Rosa, Kyrie, Nanjo, and at least one of the servants who ended up being killed. Rosa and Kyrie would have to keep everyone at the conference while the closed rooms are setup. They would also have to lie when they said they checked on the cousins. I think the murderers could be Genji and Nanjo and then Nanjo would kill Genji at the end after all the other closed rooms were setup.

What weapon could have been used? Someone must have hidden a gun and used it for the murders.

Regarding Genji
He said there are two masters Kinzo and Beatrice. However, KINZO AND BEATRICE HAVE BEEN DEAD FOR A LONG TIME. He's following whatever he thinks are Beatrice's and/or Kinzo's orders.

Regarding Nanjo
In 1998 Ange discovered that a letter, which was postmarked on Niijima on Oct. 3rd 1986, was sent to a fake address but had Nanjo’s address as the return address. The contents of the envelope were a letter, a key, and a card. The key and card lead to safe A112 which contained an enormous amount of cash. Also, the letter contained the number 07151129 which was painted on the door to the room where George was killed. Similar letters were sent to Kyrie's house and to Kumasawa (probably others too).

I don't like the theory that seems to be widely accepted where George is involved with Shannon's death. Episode 4 clearly shows that George would choose Shannon over everyone else.

Also, Battler's theory that the first person pretended to find the key is too easy. I don't think Ryukishi would simply give us the answer.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Spoiler for Another theory for episode 3's first twilight:

Someone was hiding in one of the rooms and escaped after the bodies were discovered. The red text "There is no one hiding in the six rooms!" and "Only the victims are inside the rooms, and no other people exist inside the rooms." are not violated because after 7am, when the red text was used, the person who was hiding had already escaped.

The problem with this theory is "who was hiding in that room?"

For this theory, the one who was hiding the room would have to be one of the three cousins other than Battler. Rosa and Kyrie would have to be involved as well because they were supposed to check on them.

Would Jessica be involved with Kanon's murder? I don't think she would.
Would George be involved with Shannon's murder? No one would kill the person who just agreed to marry you.
Could Maria be the one who hid? Not possible for her to do it alone. I also don't think she would kill anyone. However, it's possible she helped finish the closed room chain by locking the final key inside. Maria already did something similar to this in episode 1 when Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were killed in the parlor's closed room but that another story.

In my opinion the only one who could have been hiding would be Maria. She didn't kill anyone but her job was the complete the closed room by sealing the final key inside.

The others who would have involved would have to be at least: Rosa, Kyrie, Nanjo, and at least one of the servants who ended up being killed. Rosa and Kyrie would have to keep everyone at the conference while the closed rooms are setup. They would also have to lie when they said they checked on the cousins. I think the murders could be Genji and Nanjo and then Nanjo would kill Genji at the end after all the other closed rooms were setup.

What weapon could have been used? Someone must have hidden a gun and used it for the murders.

Regarding Genji
He said there are two masters Kinzo and Beatrice. However, KINZO AND BEATRICE HAVE BEEN DEAD FOR A LONG TIME. He's following whatever he thinks are Beatrice's and/or Kinzo's orders.

Regarding Nanjo
In 1998 Ange discovered that a letter, which was postmarked on Niijima on Oct. 3rd 1986, was sent to a fake address but had Nanjo’s address as the return address. The contents of the envelope were a letter, a key, and a card. The key and card lead to safe A112 which contained an enormous amount of cash. Also, the letter contained the number 07151129 which was painted on the door to the room where George was killed. Similar letters were sent to Kyrie's house and to Kumasawa (probably others too).

I don't like the theory that seems to be widely accepted where George is involved with Shannon's death. Episode 4 clearly shows that George would choose Shannon over everyone else.

Also, Battler's theory that the first person pretended to find the key is too easy. I don't think Ryukishi would simply give us the answer.

A problem here a bit is the frame of reference. Do we consider this red text as a statement of the status of the rooms the moment they were said at 7am, or the moment the murders happenede up until discovery? Given the nature of that discussion it seems more likey Beato was referring to the red text state of the room at the moment of the murders to discovery rather than the moment of discussion.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

A problem here a bit is the frame of reference. Do we consider this red text as a statement of the status of the rooms the moment they were said at 7am, or the moment the murders happenede up until discovery? Given the nature of that discussion it seems more likey Beato was referring to the red text state of the room at the moment of the murders to discovery rather than the moment of discussion.

If that is the case then she would have used past tense. I checked the japanese and she didn't. ^^

[Geekodot]

Originally Posted by ijriims

That red texts actually could be regarded as referring particularly to 6-8 twilights, as Lambda was rebuking Battler's "Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo held guns and shot simultaneously to kill each other." In this interpretation, it did not necessarily rape your theory.

But who is Renon you were talking about? ノックス第1条。犯人は物語当初の登場人物以外を禁ズ！！

Renon (or at least something similiar to that name) is a servant like Shannon and Kanon. She was however not working on the island that day, but as far as I can see, she can be an unknown person on the island and still satisfy knox rules because she was mentioned in the beginning of both ep 1 and 2 several times.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Ssol

If that is the case then she would have used past tense. I checked the japanese and she didn't. ^^

Well... yeah you have a point, but of course the absence of past tense does not mean she was not have been referring to that specific point in time.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Ssol

If that is the case then she would have used past tense. I checked the japanese and she didn't. ^^

The real problem I see with this, is that if Beatrice really used such a cheap trick then she's trying to bring Battler out of track.

There is a difference between someone who wants a riddle to be difficult and puts many obstacles on the way, and someone who wants a riddle to never be solved and therefore uses tricks to bring the solver away from a solution he already reached.

We know that Beatrice wants the riddle to be solved from Ryukishi's words.

So while I can understand why Beatrice makes the riddle difficult, I can't understand why she would pull such a move instead of giving hints. If Battler got the right answer Beatrice shouldn't have made it so to make him think it was wrong.

Renon (or at least something similiar to that name) is a servant like Shannon and Kanon. She was however not working on the island that day, but as far as I can see, she can be an unknown person on the island and still satisfy knox rules because she was mentioned in the beginning of both ep 1 and 2 several times.

Renon gets a single mention in all the five episodes. You are probably thinking about Runon (the one that's good a cutting corners) which however is only mentioned 4 times, and there is no guarantee that she's till working for the family.

Runon and Manon are mentioned in Episode5 once. And Episode5 also mentions a never mentioned before servant named Reinon (I guess... it's hard to tell what yomi must be picked)

Overall:

Runon (瑠音): 4 mentions (Episode2 and Episode5)
Manon (眞音): 2 mentions (Episode1 and Episode5)
Renon (恋音): 1 mention (Episode1)
Reinon (礼音): 1 mention (Episode 5)

Only Manon and Renon are confirmed to be still working, the rest are mentioned in past events. So if one of them is the culprit... why Renon? It could be Manon.

[Geekodot]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The real problem I see with this, is that if Beatrice really used such a cheap trick then she's trying to bring Battler out of track.

There is a difference between someone who wants a riddle to be difficult and puts many obstacles on the way, and someone who wants a riddle to never be solved and therefore uses tricks to bring the solver away from a solution he already reached.

We know that Beatrice wants the riddle to be solved from Ryukishi's words.

So while I can understand why Beatrice makes the riddle difficult, I can't understand why she would pull such a move instead of giving hints. If Battler got the right answer Beatrice shouldn't have made it so to make him think it was wrong.



Renon gets a single mention in all the five episodes. You are probably thinking about Runon (the one that's good a cutting corners) which however is only mentioned 4 times, and there is no guarantee that she's till working for the family.

Runon and Manon are mentioned in Episode5 once. And Episode5 also mentions a never mentioned before servant named Reinon (I guess... it's hard to tell what yomi must be picked)

Overall:

Runon (瑠音): 4 mentions (Episode2 and Episode5)
Manon (眞音): 2 mentions (Episode1 and Episode5)
Renon (恋音): 1 mention (Episode1)
Reinon (礼音): 1 mention (Episode 5)

Only Manon and Renon are confirmed to be still working, the rest are mentioned in past events. So if one of them is the culprit... why Renon? It could be Manon.

Ofc it could be Manon, however one of those with an R have been confirmed a woman, and that benefits my theory xD

Either way, the extra person on the island is not necessary, but it would explain alot... Can't think of much else that could time a landslide at 24.00 when everyone's whereabouts are known than an unknown person (im believing in the landslide theory and I won't leave it xD)

And just to mention, the unknown person on the island can also be some of those from 1998 couldn't it?

[Workworkwork]

Those servants are pretty obvious Higurashi cameos. (Renon, Runon, Reina-Rena Manon-Mion, hurf) That being said, I'd be pretty damn disappointed if Ryu07 decided to throw yet another beloved Higurashi character into the Good-cleansing Evil-filling machine.

Actually... Come to think of it, assuming Erika is the bitchy Rika from Saikoroshi-hen, Rena and Mion just moving on to become temporary servants at the Ushiromiya mansion doesn't seem too far-fetched, does it?

[Renall]

I've seen some theories recently that link Rosa and Kyrie in the culprit chain somehow. What, exactly, do Kyrie and Rosa have enough in common to work together? It's like a Krauss/Kyrie theory after ep4. Sure, it sort of makes sense from events... but then you have to look at what happens before and ask why anyone would engage in premeditation with those particular pairings. There's no real indication that Rosa and Kyrie even know each other that well, or indeed that anyone in the family knows Kyrie particularly well (by contrast, at least, to Natsuhi and Hideyoshi, whom everyone knows decently well). Eva seems more familiar with Kyrie than anyone (and also more familiar with Rosa). I'm just not seeing much connection, short of maybe both having a young daughter.

And now for a complete crackpot theory:

Spoiler for Evil George/Shannon Motive Theory:

Pretend for a moment that George and/or Shannon is an evil mastermind (or neither of them is, see the bottom). There are several ways this could go: Evil George/Evil Shannon, Evil George/Reluctant Shannon, Patsy George/Evil Shannon, Happy Ending Couple, etc. I'm just trying to posit a reason they might be up to something.

The adults of the Ushiromiya family are all deeply in debt. George would be well aware of his father's financial troubles, and in the lead-up to the 1986 conference, he would probably be aware of the other problems suffered by Rudolf and Rosa, and about Krauss's alleged embezzling from the family.

Point is, George has learned that the family is in debt. He has been raised to be a good potential head of the family (and was, before Jessica was born). He knows that even if Kinzo's mystical gold exists, it would be sold off to satisfy the debts of the family and leave them in just as bad a financial situation. He would, ideally, like to save the family from this situation if he can. How he does this depends on what sub-theory you follow, so read on.

Shannon wishes to marry George. She may or may not love him, depending on the sub-theory. Her motive (if she doesn't love him) or means (if she does) for marrying someone so far above her station is Beatrice's "magic" - the gold. People have speculated that Shannon has previously solved the epitaph. If she has, why hasn't she staked a claim to the gold? Maybe she lacks the opportunity to do so, or had no reason to utilize the knowledge before.

But if she had the gold, she has the solution to the family's problems. If the gold belongs to her, along with the money she's made as an employee of Kinzo, it does not belong to the family. Shannon's finances are essentially independent of the creditors of the Ushiromiya family. Of course, she has to either secret the gold away from the island or get everyone to accept that Kinzo intended the gold to belong to whoever could solve the epitaph, and that she has done so.

George also has to resolve the family's debts. How would this be done?

Evil George/Evil Shannon: In this theory, George and Shannon are ruthless and will resolve the issue by killing off the older generation of the Ushiromiya family to leave the family in the clear - and in George's hands. George masterminds killings and Shannon executes them in the persona of "Beatrice." They have coached Maria to obfuscate things for them. They do not intend to kill the other cousins if possible.

In ep1, everything works; George herds the cousins and provides himself an alibi, Shannon fakes her death and kills everyone. Their plan is cut short at midnight of the second day and disaster kills them as well.

In ep2, the plan is partially successful, but the failure to kill Rosa causes her to become suspicious, then paranoid. With the help of some others (possibly Genji, maybe Gohda), she succeeds in killing off Shannon and George. At the end of ep2, Battler is called upstairs where Rosa and Genji explain what happened, painting the situation as self-defense on their part (which maybe somewhat true). Battler accepts this explanation of events, but then the disaster occurs at midnight.

In ep3, Shannon is killed by someone else (possibly Nanjo). George is left unable to maneuver, and is eventually killed. Most of the killings are by someone else.

In ep4, George fakes his death at the arbor (and possibly takes the opportunity to kill Gohda and Kumasawa) and Shannon confronts Battler as "Beatrice." However, it's not clear what happens, and both of them still wind up dead, leaving Battler alone.

Evil George/Reluctant Shannon: As above, only this time George is ruthless but Shannon is only going along with him because she thinks initially that George has the family's best interests in mind. Shannon believes she can avoid having to kill anyone if she can get them to agree to her plan and let her and George save the family with the gold.

However, George pressures her into killing in ep1 after the adults' argument with Krauss makes it impossible for them to reconcile each other. She still refuses to kill the cousins and is about to reveal herself as "Beatrice" at the end of ep1 when everyone is killed.

In ep2, Battler's nap interrupts the Krauss blackmail plan, and "Beatrice's" arrival drives the adults together. Shannon calls everyone to the chapel and presents her plan. The adults all agree to it and she leaves for some reason, satisfied. George or a paranoid Rosa then kills them instead, throwing the rest of the episode into confusion. George and Shannon are eventually killed.

In ep3, Shannon is either killed by George for refusing to go along with things or killed by Nanjo or some other unrelated party. Without Shannon, George has difficulty accomplishing anything and his financial plan is ruined. Someone eventually kills him.

In ep4, George is actually killed at the Arbor, possibly by Jessica. Without George around, Shannon is finally able to confront Battler (as "Beatrice") about his sin. When Battler cannot even remember what he did, she becomes depressed, and either kills herself or is killed by one of the other killers that are almost certainly rampaging around ep4.

Patsy George/Evil Shannon: George's behavior is entirely real and his love for Shannon is genuine. Her love for him is not. For whatever reason, she believes she can maneuver herself into a financially sound position (she doesn't even need to have solved the epitaph necessarily, although if she has it explains why she'd like to remove obstacles to the gold). George, who is smitten with her, is perfect for her plans.

In ep1, Shannon masterminds the faked death and killings herself. She can't kill George and she doesn't want to risk killing anyone with him, so she takes steps to separate everyone. Once it's down to just the cousins, it's not clear what she does, but midnight comes regardless.

In ep2, Shannon must deal with Rosa's paranoia and superior weapon. She is frequently sidetracked by Genji and George, and ultimately winds up getting killed because she can't manuever.

In ep3, Shannon is actually killed early, completely short-circuiting her plan. George is left catatonic with real, actual grief, and irrationally separates himself to go see Shannon and gets killed by someone (Kyrie mistakenly thinks he's in on it, or Nanjo kills him).

In ep4, George genuinely behaves according to the instructions, shows up at the arbor, and is killed by Shannon (or someone else, really it doesn't matter).

Happy Ending Couple: George and Shannon genuinely love each other and don't intend to kill anyone. Their plan is still to get everyone to accept their financial idea, and if that fails, they will not do anything violent (at least intentionally). In ep1 Shannon is unable to get anyone to accept her plan (perhaps due to Eva's absence), and is killed as a target of opportunity. In ep2, the plan is accepted, but Rosa ruins it. In ep3, Shannon is killed. In ep4, a completely unrelated set of killers begin killing everyone, and George and Shannon are among the victims. Shannon confronts Battler, or someone who killed Shannon confronts Battler using the Beatrice costume Shannon created.

In this case, their plan might actually be a good one (Battler sort of devises a similar plan to save everyone financially when he finds the gold in ep5), but because they aren't prepared for people to behave violently, they accidentally give the real killers cover by confusing the issue with elaborate plans and mysterious witches (similar to how the killer in ep5 seems to have exploited a series of faked deaths to really kill the "dead" people).

Of course, none of this really explains anything, and all but the last theory pretty much preclude any sort of happy ending either for the couple or one of the two participants. One or both of them plotting something certainly shouldn't be left out, I just went for what I thought was the most logical motive. It's even a somewhat noble motive (at least, discounting the variations where someone is to be killed over it).

[Jan-Poo]

The George mastermind theory intrigues me. Not only because the revelation of George being the mastermind would be shocking enough (Servants, Rosa and Eva have all been proposed as killers before by Battler), there are some probable hints leading to the possibility that George could snap and kill everyone.

For example, George has said he's ready to fight the whole family for Shannon. He then said that he understand Kinzo and to get back the person he loves he would immerse himself in the world of occultism to resurrect her. There is then Episode4 where unexpectedly he chose the third option.

also there is something interesting I have found about episode1 after Natsuhi drives the servants and Maria away from Kinzo's study.

......During this endless silence, we could do nothing but be quietly tormented by that sin...
Natsuhi oba-san faced the door, without letting go of her rifle for even an instant, sitting far back in the sofa. ......She would probably spend the night staring at the door without a wink of sleep.
George-aniki gazed through a gap in the closed curtains by the window, looking down at the courtyard and the mansion that surrounded it.
......I didn't know whether he was checking to see if a suspicious shadow would become visible through the window, ...or whether he was wondering to himself about something.
Jessica was sitting sideways on the sofa next to Natsuhi oba-san, ...with a dead expression on her face.
......And every once in a while, as though she'd just remembered something, she would take out the inhaler that she had used during her asthma attack and stick it in her mouth.

It could mean nothing, but if there is someone that could send orders to an external accomplice, that person can only be George.

Because of the knox rules, if such a thing happened there must be clues, and such clues exist only in the case of George.

Of course you could argue that there was no need for the accomplice to receive orders if everything was already planned.

[Volcanic]

There's a discussion about magical counterparts on the EP4 thread, so I thought I'd say some stuff over here where we can talk about EP5 characters and events.

So far, the only ones we have confirmed are Ronove = Genji and Virgilla = Kumasawa, which leaves a whole lot of possibilities for everyone else:

Gaap: Shannon is obviously the most logical choice here, not only with their shared status as young female furniture but also this interesting little hint discovered by Jan-Poo.

Beatrice: This has been discussed before: Beato = Culprit.

Bernkastel: Bern's original role in the game was a watcher, but in EP5 she became a player. Maybe she is a back-up murderer, committing the murders the main culprit cannot?

Lambdadelta: Same as Bern, but maybe a bit more active than her.

The Stakes: I believe it's widely thought these are the parents.

The Siestas: The guns

Dlanor: A toughie. Someone logical, who wants to find the truth like Battler, but goes a little...extreme. This person might also be in agreement with Erika in EP5, but doesn't like her. Somebody suggested Kyrie awhile back, which happens to be a good idea.

Gertrude and Cornelia: ...There's too little on these two and their origins to think about them yet.

Any other thoughts?

[Tjfarmer]

I always personally thought that each demon represents one person, even the goats XD

Stakes = Parents
Siestas = Cousins, not counting Battler. 4 Siesta's, one is dead. 4 cousins, one isn't on the island
Gaap = Shannon
Ronove = Genji
Virgillia = Kumasawa
3 goats only shown at a time (but that's probably more of an issue of space on screen) = Gohda, Kanon, and Nanjo.

It doesn't make any sense at all, but that's how I saw it at first. Originally Beatrice had 16 pieces and so did Battler, yada yada chess has 16 pieces per player, or so I've been told.

Maybe the demons represent the part of each Islander that wants to kill? XD I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore....

[Felipe]

I don't think that Shannon = Gaap, mostly because of this:

Spoiler for Episode 2 TIPs:

While in Genji TIP is said that he is based in Ronove, in Shannon is said that she's an "original" furniture.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Renall

I've seen some theories recently that link Rosa and Kyrie in the culprit chain somehow. What, exactly, do Kyrie and Rosa have enough in common to work together? It's like a Krauss/Kyrie theory after ep4. Sure, it sort of makes sense from events... but then you have to look at what happens before and ask why anyone would engage in premeditation with those particular pairings. There's no real indication that Rosa and Kyrie even know each other that well, or indeed that anyone in the family knows Kyrie particularly well (by contrast, at least, to Natsuhi and Hideyoshi, whom everyone knows decently well). Eva seems more familiar with Kyrie than anyone (and also more familiar with Rosa). I'm just not seeing much connection, short of maybe both having a young daughter.

I don't know if you are talking about my theory. I have Kyrie and Rosa teamed up to make the giving of letter to Maria easier, as every time Maria was left alone in the garden to receive the letter was too suspicious, as well as Rosa's saying that Kinzo giving to Maria the letter directly was a blatant lie.

I am thinking on separating them and the possibility of giving the letter to Maria without Rosa's collusion. Anyway, for a linkage between Kyrie and Rosa, you know that before the family meeting, the younger siblings and their spouses were plotting together to squeeze money from Krauss. They certainly had met before to discuss strategies and contingency. Therefore Kyrie and Rosa have met beforehand. Kyrie may approach Rosa in private to suggest a plan of using Maria to deliver the letter during the dinner in order to force everyone to find where the gold was. (assuming Kyrie knew the gold's existence). I presume Rosa knew about Kinzo's death through Genji as I enlist him an accomplice of Rosa. Therefore, Kyrie also knew about Kinzo's death but they decided not to let other siblings know since they thought this would probably lead to threatening Krauss being the most effective way and no one would want to solve the epigraph in this case. (I assume Rosa did not want the siblings to go into struggle at all. She wanted everyone to share the gold probably, not to alienating them further.) Getting the ring from Genji, they faked the letters. (Genji agreed to this plan since he wanted the family to concentrate on solving the epigraph as well, not intra-family struggle)

Kyrie, Rosa and Genji all wanted the family to focus on epigraph was what binded them together. In this hypothesis, Kyrie was Beatrice, without Maria's knowing.

Finished.



BTW, IMO, the assumption that each fantasy character must represent a person is not sound at all. Consider Sietus sisters' case. A better (and more general) assumption is they represent someone or something, be it tangible or intangible.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Ssol

I think your theory is very good but what about the red text for when they discovered the bodies:
"All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!"

Since that red wasn't given until the Episode 4 tea party, it doesn't have a clear time associated with it, so I think she could have been referring to wounds they received after the search party left. Or, perhaps they had fake wounds for the search party's benefit, and they "became fatal" because the culprit stabbed them in the same place? That red has really strange wording.

Originally Posted by Ssol

Also, you mixed up Kumasawa and Genji.

Hrm, that would make Genji the second suspect instead of Kumasawa. I don't have as much dirt on him though

Originally Posted by Ssol

In my opinion the only one who could have been hiding would be Maria. She didn't kill anyone but her job was the complete the closed room by sealing the final key inside.

The others who would have involved would have to be at least: Rosa, Kyrie, Nanjo, and at least one of the servants who ended up being killed. Rosa and Kyrie would have to keep everyone at the conference while the closed rooms are setup. They would also have to lie when they said they checked on the cousins. I think the murderers could be Genji and Nanjo and then Nanjo would kill Genji at the end after all the other closed rooms were setup.

Well, we've seen enough other time-of-statement games being played that I think this theory is workable, but would Rosa really let her own daughter lock herself in a room with a dead body? And if Maria is involved this way, there'd be a risk of her falling asleep in the room she was hiding in, or of one of the other cousins waking up and noticing her gone.

You know, that reminds me. Didn't Rosa discover that her bottle of child-use sedatives was empty in Episode 3? Maybe someone (Evil Maria?) filched them for some reason?

Originally Posted by Ssol

What weapon could have been used? Someone must have hidden a gun and used it for the murders.

Beato said they "resembled gunshot wounds", but according to Nanjo the wounds were ambiguous, and the victims could have been stabbed with a spear-like weapon too. The adults didn't hear any kind of gunshot during the conference either, which was why I was suggesting a loose stake as the murder weapon. All of the wounds were in soft areas, so driving the stake through bone wouldn't have been an issue.

Regardless of the weapon, the neck seems like a strange place to get wounded, especially since two people had wounds there (Gohda and Genji). You'd think that during a struggle, the attacker would go for an easier target.

Originally Posted by Ssol

Also, Battler's theory that the first person pretended to find the key is too easy. I don't think Ryukishi would simply give us the answer.

Lambda did say that some of Battler's blue text was ineffective. I think that one violates the statement that all of the keys related to the closed rooms were locked up inside those rooms.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Renall

What, exactly, do Kyrie and Rosa have enough in common to work together?

Remember, they are already working together to get money out of Krauss. However, I agree that there is not enough information to establish a clear motive for them to work together to plot the murders because I don't remember any scene where they directly spoke to each other prior to the family conference. Mabye more will be revealed later on.

Originally Posted by Renall

One or both of them plotting something certainly shouldn't be left out, I just went for what I thought was the most logical motive. It's even a somewhat noble motive (at least, discounting the variations where someone is to be killed over it).

George murdering the older generation due to the financial problems that they caused would be interesting. I think those are good theories.

What about the possibility that the ring scenes between Shannon and George are false? Battler's sin from six years ago was that he made Shannon fall in love with him and then left her. She actually rejects George's marriage proposals because she still has feelings for Battler, which resurfaced when he finally returned. Shannon does not tell George the real reason why she rejected him and instead makes up some other reason that makes George want to blame everyone else on the island except Battler since he's been gone for six years. Since Shannon is everything to George this leads him to murder.

Of course, for that theory you would still need other groups with murderous intentions as well because someone is bringing the stakes to the island before Oct. 4 and the message in the bottle is likely from before Oct. 4.

I think a mixture of the "Patsy George/Evil Shannon" theory and "Happy Ending Couple" theory would be interesting where George plans the financial idea with Shannon but Shannon also has plans of her own that aren't as friendly. Call it "plan B" if you will.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Well, we've seen enough other time-of-statement games being played that I think this theory is workable, but would Rosa really let her own daughter lock herself in a room with a dead body? And if Maria is involved this way, there'd be a risk of her falling asleep in the room she was hiding in, or of one of the other cousins waking up and noticing her gone.

You know, that reminds me. Didn't Rosa discover that her bottle of child-use sedatives was empty in Episode 3? Maybe someone (Evil Maria?) filched them for some reason?

Do you know which chapter Rosa said the bottle of child-use sedatives was empty?

[Kaiba]

I am thinking on separating them and the possibility of giving the letter to Maria without Rosa's collusion. Anyway, for a linkage between Kyrie and Rosa, you know that before the family meeting, the younger siblings and their spouses were plotting together to squeeze money from Krauss. They certainly had met before to discuss strategies and contingency. Therefore Kyrie and Rosa have met beforehand. Kyrie may approach Rosa in private to suggest a plan of using Maria to deliver the letter during the dinner in order to force everyone to find where the gold was. (assuming Kyrie knew the gold's existence). I presume Rosa knew about Kinzo's death through Genji as I enlist him an accomplice of Rosa. Therefore, Kyrie also knew about Kinzo's death but they decided not to let other siblings know since they thought this would probably lead to threatening Krauss being the most effective way and no one would want to solve the epigraph in this case. (I assume Rosa did not want the siblings to go into struggle at all. She wanted everyone to share the gold probably, not to alienating them further.) Getting the ring from Genji, they faked the letters. (Genji agreed to this plan since he wanted the family to concentrate on solving the epigraph as well, not intra-family struggle)

I'll admit that I don't like Rosa as a culprit as she's just way too obvious in Episode 2, but just what evidence is there that 1. those two have collobrated on anything besides extorting Krauss and 2. that Kyrie gives a damn about Maria? (as I know you've stated earlier)
Ryukishi did say the mystery is solvable after 4, and while it's possible he's exaggerating to some degree, I generally can conclude that there should be clues for that. To compare it to the George and Shannon theory, we know that George and Shannon are close, they spend large amounts of time separate from the rest in the name of love, and we know George is willing to go against his entire family for Shannon.
There's nothing indicating Kyrie cares anything towards Maria, there's nothing indicating that Kyrie and Rosa have cooperated any more closely with each other than say, Hideyoshi and Rudolf, and I don't believe for a second that either Rosa or Kyrie (and especially Kyrie) could know where the gold is and keep it secret while passing on that vast wealth and the glory of the Ushiromiya family. I'm sorry, all I see above is "this may have happened, this possibly could have happened", and that's just not good enough.