Macross / Robotech connection

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Tak

Macross takes a different agenda. It doesn't always pit humanity as the victim. In fact, its pretty much a story of manifest destiny in Space.

THIS IS OUR GALAXY, OURS TO CONQUER, OURS TO DEFILE!!

SIEG ZEON! SIEG ZEON! SIEG ZEON!!

I can't really see Macross in that context. The diaspora of Macross humanity carries with it a lot more boundless optimism and genuine goodwill (at least for most people) that doesn't feel akin to Manifest Destiny (at least not the historical version). Moreover, one of the broad goals of this migration is to avoid extinction and that works against the theme as well.

Originally Posted by Snowblind

You could put a positive spin on what happened in Robotech by saying that it emphasizes humankind's will to survive. Sure, Earth gets hammered three times, but they never really give up (sure, things aren't so great during the 'Third Generation'/Mospeada arc, but even then there were still people willing to resist).

If we take the Sentinels into account (I know, I know...), it's not like humanity just sits back and takes it, either. And even in Macross (outside of Plus) humanity is on the receiving end, it's just not happening in our own back yard, and it's on a much smaller scale (unless we allow Macross II).

True enough, but Robotech as whole and Macross play out theme-wise quite differently. One of the keys to Robotech is that all of humanity's attempts to contact non-human civilizations (even in Sentinels) is spurred by the need to fight the enemy, while Macross is much more about the growth of humanity. Then again, you have a pretty good point in that Robotech is disparate enough that it might be pointless to generalize in terms of theme.

Where the comparison is somewhat more fair is to look at what Robotech humanity has achieved versus what Macross humanity has. And in this comparison, it's quite obvious that the Macross civilization has a marked advantage, and in just about every conceivable way. One stark example of this is that SDF-1 would be considered an extremely potent ship even in Shadow Chronicle-era Robotech, while the NUNS can lose SDF-4 Global and barely notice it.

[Tak]

I don't know if I can agree with the notion that humans were desperately trying to survive. To me, they were just being alive, and some simply lived for the thrill of the moment. I am not sure if the humans collectively thought about long-term survival at all. Now, I admit I have not seen Robotech in its entirety, but I did watch all of the original 3 shows, and by Mospeda/3rd generation, human moral on Earth is at such a low point I did not get the jest that they were thinking about long-term survival at all. Sure, a small, organized group of humans probably were doing their best to fend off the Invids, but as a collective, its hardly convincing they were thinking long-term goals.

Robotech was not exactly meant to have an expanded universe when its creators smashed three unrelated shows into one giant one to fool children. So when the expanded universe of Robotech was created due to unexpected success of the show, its creators found themselves rather confined in a rather confined situation. The result is not a pretty one.

- Tak

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Tak

I don't know if I can agree with the notion that humans were desperately trying to survive. To me, they were just being alive, and some simply lived for the thrill of the moment. I am not sure if the humans collectively thought about long-term survival at all.

In Macross, the government leaders most certainly were worried by survival. An expression of this can be seen in the utterly excessive defenses around Earth, and in the sheer amount firepower carried by all of the fleets. Colony fleets like Macross 7 and 25 would each have over a dozen 400+m carriers, and if they had a full complement of variable fighters, some 2000 mecha apiece. Even long range reconnaisance fleets are given original Macross ships like SDFN-04, and multiple 400+m carriers; for a force of some 400-500 variable fighters. And that doesn't even count the actual battlefleets that have to exist somewhere. The level of militarization just about everywhere you look outside of the purely civilian areas (and heck, even there ) is densely pack with either military personnel or hardware. The same thing goes if we look at how much attention is paid to military technology, and this is at a time when the NUN isn't at active war with anyone.

If you look at the colonization patterns, the same kind of message appears - a more secure civilization would have taken a much more conservative approach to colonization. They would have taken their time to build up their population and not colonized so quickly. Moreover, all of the colonies would have been built much closer to one another, and any attempts at long distance travel would been reserved to the pure exploration fleets; like it's done in other universes. And of course the colony fleets wouldn't have been so lavishly equipped, nor would they be given as much independence.

All things considered, given that humanity was a hair's breadth away from getting exterminated (all it really would have taken was for SDF-1 to take an unlucky hit before blowing up Boldoze's ship), it's only natural to worry about the fragility of their civilization. This doesn't affect the younger generation of characters because they tend not to be the ones in charge, and because they didn't experience the Zentradi onslaught. I think that this hangs together remarkably well, and it really is a credit to the kind of geeky thinking that I'm pretty sure that Kawamori indulges in.

Originally Posted by Tak

Now, I admit I have not seen Robotech in its entirety, but I did watch all of the original 3 shows, and by Mospeda/3rd generation, human moral on Earth is at such a low point I did not get the jest that they were thinking about long-term survival at all. Sure, a small, organized group of humans probably were doing their best to fend off the Invids, but as a collective, its hardly convincing they were thinking long-term goals.

This comes across much better in the Robotech novels. As you say, the Robotech cartoon was only designed well enough to pass cursory examination, and so the overall narrative is a lot less concrete and organized. In the novels though, we can see all of the work of the humans who had left Earth to find the Robotech Masters, and who came back home to fight off the Invid. And it's in these people who thought in terms of long-term goals. Admittedly, I know most of my Robotech through the novels, but it's quite obvious that the authors put a lot of work trying to reconcile the disparate shows.

Originally Posted by Tak

Robotech was not exactly meant to have an expanded universe when its creators smashed three unrelated shows into one giant one to fool children. So when the expanded universe of Robotech was created due to unexpected success of the show, its creators found themselves rather confined in a rather confined situation. The result is not a pretty one.

That's true to a degree, but the novels flesh everything together a lot better than the Robotech cartoon does. In terms of the overall universe, it's not anywhere nearly as good as Macross is, but it's really not all that bad either (as long as you ignore the Sentinels novels ).

[Tak]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

In Macross, the government leaders most certainly were worried by survival. An expression of this can be seen in the utterly excessive defenses around Earth, and in the sheer amount firepower carried by all of the fleets. Colony fleets like Macross 7 and 25 would each have over a dozen 400+m carriers, and if they had a full complement of variable fighters, some 2000 mecha apiece. Even long range reconnaisance fleets are given original Macross ships like SDFN-04, and multiple 400+m carriers; for a force of some 400-500 variable fighters. And that doesn't even count the actual battlefleets that have to exist somewhere. The level of militarization just about everywhere you look outside of the purely civilian areas (and heck, even there ) is densely pack with either military personnel or hardware. The same thing goes if we look at how much attention is paid to military technology, and this is at a time when the NUN isn't at active war with anyone.

If you look at the colonization patterns, the same kind of message appears - a more secure civilization would have taken a much more conservative approach to colonization. They would have taken their time to build up their population and not colonized so quickly. Moreover, all of the colonies would have been built much closer to one another, and any attempts at long distance travel would been reserved to the pure exploration fleets; like it's done in other universes. And of course the colony fleets wouldn't have been so lavishly equipped, nor would they be given as much independence.

All things considered, given that humanity was a hair's breadth away from getting exterminated (all it really would have taken was for SDF-1 to take an unlucky hit before blowing up Boldoze's ship), it's only natural to worry about the fragility of their civilization. This doesn't affect the younger generation of characters because they tend not to be the ones in charge, and because they didn't experience the Zentradi onslaught. I think that this hangs together remarkably well, and it really is a credit to the kind of geeky thinking that I'm pretty sure that Kawamori indulges in.

Well, see, I understand that, and I appreciate you taking your time typing all these... the problem was that in the previous post, I directed all my comments at Bobotech, and not Macross... see

Now, the problem with Robotech is that many people simply will not read the novels. I never read one, and probably won't. So if the show already failed to convince me in its animated form due to obvious plot-holes and glaring unanswered questions, using novels to gap the disparity is a pretty half-assed affair.

Really, to have Earth hammered for three generations and still not able to finish the war by the time generation 3.5 (SC) came about? Boy, one really has to wonder...

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Tak

Well, see, I understand that, and I appreciate you taking your time typing all these... the problem was that in the previous post, I directed all my comments at Bobotech, and not Macross... see

Now, the problem with Robotech is that many people simply will not read the novels. I never read one, and probably won't. So if the show already failed to convince me in its animated form due to obvious plot-holes and glaring unanswered questions, using novels to gap the disparity is a pretty half-assed affair.

Really, to have Earth hammered for three generations and still not able to finish the war by the time generation 3.5 (SC) came about? Boy, one really has to wonder...

- Tak

Since I actually own many of the Robotech novels ( the Macross part ones and all but one of the Sentinels), I can join the discussion. ^^

First off, I didn´t find the Sentinel novels to be so dire, to be honest. Maybe it´s wistful memories and not knowing Macross, but after years and years of wanting to see a continuation of the Macross part of the story ( since the other two kind of, ah, sucked ^^ ), having further adventures of Rick, Lisa, Max, Miriya and Breetai really was something nice.

Secondly, IIRC, there was a Sentinels series being worked on, but after they had finished most of it, the warehouse containing the tapes burned down, effectively destroying most of the series. Only the pilot survived, but the rest of the series wasn´t done again, since financial support collapsed.

Hence, the novels were written from the scripts left behind. The series was finished, finally, with an original novel, which wrapped up the plotlines, had the original cast and the most important members of the cast of the other two series all being involved and finished on a very optimistic note.

[Snowblind]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

...
Secondly, IIRC, there was a Sentinels series being worked on, but after they had finished most of it, the warehouse containing the tapes burned down, effectively destroying most of the series. Only the pilot survived, but the rest of the series wasn´t done again, since financial support collapsed.
...

Robotech II: The Sentinels. Nothing was destroyed, it was just never completed. Only the first three episodes were completed (along with partial animation/storyboards for one or two other episodes). I have the VHS of it kicking around somewhere. I'm tempted to go back and watch it, but it's probably more effort than it's worth.

There was also the Robotech: The Sentinels comic which I also have a few of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robotech_II:_The_Sentinels

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Snowblind

Robotech II: The Sentinels. Nothing was destroyed, it was just never completed. Only the first three episodes were completed (along with partial animation/storyboards for one or two other episodes). I have the VHS of it kicking around somewhere. I'm tempted to go back and watch it, but it's probably more effort than it's worth.

There was also the Robotech: The Sentinels comic which I also have a few of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robotech_II:_The_Sentinels

Really? That´s very strange, I definitely remember reading that the series was being done and a warehouse with lots of the material burned down, etc, etc. Very strange.

Oh, well, in any case, the series never was completed, but the novels weren´t really that bad.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Tak

Well, see, I understand that, and I appreciate you taking your time typing all these... the problem was that in the previous post, I directed all my comments at Bobotech, and not Macross... see

Hehe. I realized that about halfway through my post, and I figured that I wanted to finish it off anyways. The universe setup in Macross is one of my favorites in all the fiction I've encountered, and you're well aware of how much I like well-constructed fictional universes .

Originally Posted by Tak

Now, the problem with Robotech is that many people simply will not read the novels. I never read one, and probably won't. So if the show already failed to convince me in its animated form due to obvious plot-holes and glaring unanswered questions, using novels to gap the disparity is a pretty half-assed affair.

The novels themselves do have some plot holes, but they also afford an opportunity to address some of the more egregious ones that the cartoon never had a chance to. One of the nice features of them was that the chapters were prefaced with quotes from in-universe books to further flesh out the characters and the setting. Since they are based on the Robotech cartoon, they range somewhat in quality, but I'd say that they're rather better than the translated Gundam novels on the whole. It's a bit of a shame that they're a bit obscure nowadays.

Most of the Robotech human struggle for survival shows up after the end of the Macross part of the story. The military is split into two portions: the Robotech Expeditionary Force to go and take on the Robotech Masters in their homes (thus explaining why there aren't any familiar faces from part 1 ), and the United Earth Forces to defend Earth until they get back. This probably didn't get explained as well as it could have been in the cartoon, but it's dwelt on in a fair amount of detail in the novels. Does this excuse the weaknesses of the cartoon completely? I don't think so, but I think that it does mitigate them somewhat.

Originally Posted by Tak

Really, to have Earth hammered for three generations and still not able to finish the war by the time generation 3.5 (SC) came about? Boy, one really has to wonder...

To be fair, these are all different wars against different enemies. It speaks rather well of the resilence of humanity, if not to their strength.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Since I actually own many of the Robotech novels ( the Macross part ones and all but one of the Sentinels), I can join the discussion. ^^

First off, I didn´t find the Sentinel novels to be so dire, to be honest. Maybe it´s wistful memories and not knowing Macross, but after years and years of wanting to see a continuation of the Macross part of the story ( since the other two kind of, ah, sucked ^^ ), having further adventures of Rick, Lisa, Max, Miriya and Breetai really was something nice.

Please bear in mind that it's coming to two decades since I've read the Sentinels, so correct me if I've misremembered. As a standalone series of novels, the Sentinels series wasn't that bad. However, as a continuation of Robotech it suffered in a few areas: it had to flesh out the continuity, it did not present the Macross characters consistently, it greatly emphasized metaphysics which were less prevalent in the original shows, and worst of all, it minimized the grandeur of the universe. The most striking example of this that I can remember is what the did with Max and Miriya's characters: they took two of the best combat pilots ever, and turned them into pacifists by the end of the Sentinels. It'd be one thing if they were John and Jane Doe, but with two of the most beloved soldiers ever? That's not something I can stand for.

On the other hand, I loved what they did with Breetai - he wasn't all that consistent with his Macross (Saga) incarnation, but he was awesome. I wish that the writers had given the same kind of treatment to the human characters as well.

[BetoJR]

Well... but then, they go and give us stuff like that Shadow Chronicles thingie... I mean, we even find out in the comic prequel that Lisa hasn't been able to get pregnant for three whole decades, and, at 58-60 years of age, ends up that way. And then...

Spoiler for Lisa Hayes-Hunter fate, comic-wise:

LOSES THE BABY!!! I mean, can't these characters get a break?

I dunno. I'd prefer to not have a continuation, than having stuff like that, honestly...

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Well... but then, they go and give us stuff like that Shadow Chronicles thingie... I mean, we even find out in the comic prequel that Lisa hasn't been able to get pregnant for three whole decades, and, at 58-60 years of age, ends up that way. And then...

Spoiler for Lisa Hayes-Hunter fate, comic-wise:

LOSES THE BABY!!! I mean, can't these characters get a break?

I dunno. I'd prefer to not have a continuation, than having stuff like that, honestly...

Shadow Chronicles =/= Sentinels. Completely different timelines.

[BetoJR]

That's why I said "but then, they go"... I'd prefer not to have anything, or else, have the Sentinels timeline animated, than what we got.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

To be fair, these are all different wars against different enemies. It speaks rather well of the resilence of humanity, if not to their strength.

Yet, this is also the case with Macross. Humanity in Macross already encountered a variety of enemies by the time of Frontier, each different from another, and each more numerous, if not more powerful than anything encountered in Robotech.

But the primary difference? In Macross, humanity is not suffering from some sort of twisted introversion. They took a hit post Space War I, but they got back up on their feet and advanced.

In Robotech, humans, well... I am not too sure if I should accuse them of being introverted or just plain incompetent. Fact remains that by the time of the 3rd generation, the general moral of humans on Earth had sunk to such a level that redemption just had to come from elsewhere.

And don't you think its funny that while the REF went to war, Earth had already been occupied for numerous years without their prior knowledge? How did that fact slip past them!?

- Tak

[Snowblind]

Originally Posted by Tak

Yet, this is also the case with Macross. Humanity in Macross already encountered a variety of enemies by the time of Frontier, each different from another, and each more numerous, if not more powerful than anything encountered in Robotech.

But the primary difference? In Macross, humanity is not suffering from some sort of twisted introversion. They took a hit post Space War I, but they got back up on their feet and advanced.

I have to wonder, though... which is more realistic? The population of earth had been pushed to the brink of extinction, its industrial base destroyed. The populations that did survive (in Robotech, anyway) were largely very remote (mostly in 2nd and 3rd world countries where the populations were low, according to the books), and would have a limited technical background. Zentraedi in in the Robotech Universe had virtually no technical background and no education beyond what they needed. The only advantage they had in common with the Macross U is the factory satellite. No cloning to help rebuild their numbers (as far as I can remember...?), and far less Zentraedi assistance. Looking at real world examples, it's easy to see how this would have set them back many generations. If anything, the Macross U may be a little too generous in how quickly humanity rebounded. It took decades for post-war Europe to sort itself out, now imagine something on a scale far worse than the second world war...

Originally Posted by Tak

In Robotech, humans, well... I am not too sure if I should accuse them of being introverted or just plain incompetent. Fact remains that by the time of the 3rd generation, the general moral of humans on Earth had sunk to such a level that redemption just had to come from elsewhere.

Like I said in an earlier post... the Earth never got attacked three times in a row. Each time the rebuilding process has to start all over again. Again, look at real world examples... it's not so hard to believe, really. Depressing? Sure. Unrealistic? Not entirely.

Originally Posted by Tak

And don't you think its funny that while the REF went to war, Earth had already been occupied for numerous years without their prior knowledge? How did that fact slip past them!?

It's been a long time since I've read the novels... so my memory is a bit spotty here, but there were problems with communication, no? And when they did find out they spent some time rebuilding their fleet so they could send help. Not the greatest explanations, but at least they addressed it.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Tak

But the primary difference? In Macross, humanity is not suffering from some sort of twisted introversion. They took a hit post Space War I, but they got back up on their feet and advanced.

In Robotech, humans, well... I am not too sure if I should accuse them of being introverted or just plain incompetent. Fact remains that by the time of the 3rd generation, the general moral of humans on Earth had sunk to such a level that redemption just had to come from elsewhere.

Not quite. Humanity exists in two venues at that point: it's true that the humans on Earth were downtrodden, but the REF humans (many of them being born off-planet) were full of the same kind of exuberance that Macross humans exhibit. The problem is that we only see these guys in the novels and in small parts of the Mospeada section of Robotech.

It's also important to note that Robotech humanity lacks a lot of the resources and technologies that Macross humanity had access to. For example, the Robotech Factory Satellite is much less capable (due to breakdown and lack of power) than the Macross one. The former was only capable of building a couple of SDF-1 scale ships and a number of smaller vessels by 2029, while the UNS is launching million-person colony fleets with huge numbers of large vessels by 2030.

In terms of human resouces, Robotech is at a disadvantage as well. While a lot more humans survived the Zentradi attack in Robotech, they were from the poorer and more destitute countries and communities. This inhibits the growth of infrastructure and technological advancement as all of these people have to be brought up to speed. And indeed, much of the Earth was still relatively undeveloped even by the 2029 era.

Originally Posted by Tak

And don't you think its funny that while the REF went to war, Earth had already been occupied for numerous years without their prior knowledge? How did that fact slip past them!?

They didn't find out until they arrived at the Masters' worlds, and they suffered too much damage to get back to Earth. It's an awkward rationalization, but that's one of the reasons why the Sentinels novels work better as standalones.

Originally Posted by Snowblind

I have to wonder, though... which is more realistic? The population of earth had been pushed to the brink of extinction, its industrial base destroyed. The populations that did survive (in Robotech, anyway) were largely very remote (mostly in 2nd and 3rd world countries where the populations were low, according to the books), and would have a limited technical background. Zentraedi in in the Robotech Universe had virtually no technical background and no education beyond what they needed. The only advantage they had in common with the Macross U is the factory satellite. No cloning to help rebuild their numbers (as far as I can remember...?), and far less Zentraedi assistance. Looking at real world examples, it's easy to see how this would have set them back many generations. If anything, the Macross U may be a little too generous in how quickly humanity rebounded. It took decades for post-war Europe to sort itself out, now imagine something on a scale far worse than the second world war...

Both have their reasons for what they accomplished. Macross had the advantage in that the powermovers were all aboard SDF-1, and these were some of the most industrious, inventive, and hard-working people ever. They're the guys who managed to rebuild an entire city in a warship, and now they had the help of the Zentradi to rebuild the Earth. Moreover, they didn't really have to worry about industrial production since they had the Factory Satellite to build whatever heavy equipment they needed. Even operating the Satellite at 0.1% of capacity would produce, in a single year, greater industrial output than the sum of human capability from the dawn of the cavemen to 1999. I'd agree that it's on the ridiculously fast side, but they did have a lot of advantages most civilizations don't have.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Since I actually own many of the Robotech novels ( the Macross part ones and all but one of the Sentinels), I can join the discussion. ^^

First off, I didn´t find the Sentinel novels to be so dire, to be honest. Maybe it´s wistful memories and not knowing Macross, but after years and years of wanting to see a continuation of the Macross part of the story ( since the other two kind of, ah, sucked ^^ ), having further adventures of Rick, Lisa, Max, Miriya and Breetai really was something nice.

I dunno...maybe I'm just filled with irrational RT bile, but I thought the novels kinda sucked, too.

I think a lot of it was because I really, REALLY wanted to know more about the three original component series of RT, and I (foolishly) thought that eventually, Carl Macek would say, "Okay, guys, you liked Robotech? Well, NOW, let me introduce you to Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada!" (Yes, that eventually happened, but it took quite a while.)

Instead, I got a bunch of material trying its damnedest to weave everything into a cohesive whole, which was (and is) a project doomed to failure. Nearly every "innovation" in the novels seemed artificial and forced to me.

Still, I read 'em all as they came out (except for books 19, 20, and 21), so there must have been something there that kept me coming back...

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I dunno...maybe I'm just filled with irrational RT bile, but I thought the novels kinda sucked, too.

I think a lot of it was because I really, REALLY wanted to know more about the three original component series of RT, and I (foolishly) thought that eventually, Carl Macek would say, "Okay, guys, you liked Robotech? Well, NOW, let me introduce you to Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada!" (Yes, that eventually happened, but it took quite a while.)

Instead, I got a bunch of material trying its damnedest to weave everything into a cohesive whole, which was (and is) a project doomed to failure. Nearly every "innovation" in the novels seemed artificial and forced to me.

Still, I read 'em all as they came out (except for books 19, 20, and 21), so there must have been something there that kept me coming back...

Well, to each his own, I guess. I was very satisfied with the final novel "The End of the Line", which had Rick, Lisa, Minmay and others trapped in a parallel universe with the Invid queen, while Max and Miriya were trying to find out what happened to the SDF-1 and crew. It eventually ended with all of them returning to a rebuilt earth, which wasn´t dependent on Protoculture as an energy source anymore, while Minmay stayed behind with her lover in a small tranquil pocket universe, singing to the Invid queen. Sounds a bit strange, but it hung together pretty well, IMO.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, to each his own, I guess. I was very satisfied with the final novel "The End of the Line", which had Rick, Lisa, Minmay and others trapped in a parallel universe with the Invid queen, while Max and Miriya were trying to find out what happened to the SDF-1 and crew. It eventually ended with all of them returning to a rebuilt earth, which wasn´t dependent on Protoculture as an energy source anymore, while Minmay stayed behind with her lover in a small tranquil pocket universe, singing to the Invid queen. Sounds a bit strange, but it hung together pretty well, IMO.

I remember very little about End of the Circie, except for Minmay and her Zor-clone boyfriend becoming the original Zor's parents. I do remember thinking the book was a little silly, though. (And I remember hating the fifth Sentinels book, but I can't remember why.)

But yes, to each his own. I think the main problem for me with the books was that by the time they started coming out, I had already seen DYRL, and was full-swing into raw anime, and Americanized versions just couldn't do it for me any more. And if the show was Americanized, the books were even more so...I wanted to get closer to the source anime, not deeper into "Macek's vision." And remember, I was obnoxiously self-righteous as only a thirteen-year-old can be.

If I hadn't known it was all cobbled together from different shows, I probably would've liked them more.

[Kylegoblue]

I thought the ending was odd too but the story had become so metaphysical and weird that the ending was bound to be crazy. That said I loved reading the books. At the time I'd seen Robotech about 50 times and the novels were the only way I could get my fix.

As far as the Americanization of the show goes, I'm of two minds when it comes to that topic in anime in general. For one, I don't know the Japanese language or the culture so watching a dubbed, Americanized version makes it easier for me to consume. On the other hand barring translation goofs I do enjoy watching it as the creators intended.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I remember very little about End of the Circie, except for Minmay and her Zor-clone boyfriend becoming the original Zor's parents. I do remember thinking the book was a little silly, though. (And I remember hating the fifth Sentinels book, but I can't remember why.)

But yes, to each his own. I think the main problem for me with the books was that by the time they started coming out, I had already seen DYRL, and was full-swing into raw anime, and Americanized versions just couldn't do it for me any more. And if the show was Americanized, the books were even more so...I wanted to get closer to the source anime, not deeper into "Macek's vision." And remember, I was obnoxiously self-righteous as only a thirteen-year-old can be.

If I hadn't known it was all cobbled together from different shows, I probably would've liked them more.

I did not have access to the original Macross back then, since I really noticed it when Macross Zero came out and it was Macross Frontier which fully put me into the Macross > Robotech camp. It´s pretty hard to overcome decades of indoctrination.

[CaptGloval]

Originally Posted by Kylegoblue

As far as the Americanization of the show goes, I'm of two minds when it comes to that topic in anime in general. For one, I don't know the Japanese language or the culture so watching a dubbed, Americanized version makes it easier for me to consume. On the other hand barring translation goofs I do enjoy watching it as the creators intended.

Unfortunately Robotech isn't exactly an English-dubbed Americanization (American localization) of Macross. I'd really be appreciative if it was that. Instead, Robotech is an attempt to create a whole new story from its different source material. Macross was the least affected, but it's still badly affected if we take into consideration the legal problems it encountered.