How should we react to visual gameplays' featuring disturbing themes?

[Thingle]

Who decides which games are disturbing and need to be banned, what moral system is their basis for deciding so, and why?

[justavisitor]

This kind of issue never gets an answer...ultimately, one needs to ask himself/herself, what kind of environment you want to live with? Do you want to live in an environment that you can access various info and then you can development your own unique value/viewpoints, or you want someone tell you what is good and what is bad and all you need to do is to follow others' footsteps...

I personally always go against banning. I want to access any info I want and I believe most ppl can become more mature/objective by accessing more info and then he/she can make his/her own judgment. But like other posters said in the above, maybe those violence, sexual related material will really push ppl over the "bad" edge?? I think I can handle it tho

And I am no philosopher so I cannot answer that question XD..but somehow it's my belief that for a healthy society, the society should provide significant freedom for ppl to access any info they want..

[Thingle]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

And I am no philosopher so I cannot answer that question XD..but somehow it's my belief that for a healthy society, the society should provide significant freedom for ppl to access any info they want..

Well, one does not need to be a philosopher to realize that the act of banning is an exercise of intolerance. plain and simple.

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by Narona

Stats like these are crap when there's no study to explain how thet counted/estimated the cases of rapes etc.

For example, that graph, for france, uses the number from the department of Justice i suppose (i am not even sure about that), but those numbers can't be used just like that because all the cases of rapes don't go to a court of assizes. And not all the rapes are reported.

That's why I gave number from 1999, because there's no serious National rapes study in France since the ENVEFF in 2000-2001. The real numbers are way higher.

Each country has its own laws and not all works the same way. Therefore those numbers can't be discussed seriously if they don't come from a serious national study.

You can also check the number for the USA that I gave for the 1993 year. Using the FBI number is a better source than using random number.

But Narona, it still doesn't account for the orders of magnitude difference between Japan and the rest of the world. Even if the amount of actual occurrences in Japan turns out to be twice as high, it's still 20x less than the US!

So it still begs the question, why so? I mean, if this kind of expression is so bad for society, why is Japan still one of the safest places to live in the world?

An analogous example would be a comparison of drug problems (crimes, addiction, cartel wars) in countries that have hard line drug laws and those that have legalized drugs.

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by npcomplete

But Narona, it still doesn't account for the orders of magnitude difference between Japan and the rest of the world. Even if the amount of actual occurrences in Japan turns out to be twice as high, it's still 20x less than the US!

In actuality, one must go so far as to determine what each of these statistics count as rape in the first place. Rape is a notoriously troublesome statistic for many reasons.

To use the Saudi Arabia example: the extremely low rate of reported rape cases comes not only from unreported cases but also because the government refused to consider a lot of actions that we would object to as rape. Japan isn't Saudi Arabia but the issue still needs to be considered. It can go the other way around as well, countries with powerful and highly sensitive feminist movements may have expanded the definition of "rape" to include what is traditionally considered sexual harassment (and the definition of sexual harassment into actions once ignored as such) and can unintentionally greatly inflate their own statistics, further distorting these comparisons.

As long as we do not know how these statistics came to be, what criteria are the actions defined, how are they collected, what statistical methods are used to validate the statistics, etc., they can be thrown right out the window for any sort of serious comparison. Experts have to work really hard to make them remotely valid after all. So where does this statistic came from, who collected it, and how?


That said, I also don't agree either with the intuitive approach to "ban first, it might cause damage." Anh_Minh points out very succinctly of the existence of a opposite hypothesis, neither of which is supported by actual research. To buy into one to the exclusion of another displays a pre-existing bias.

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

That said, I also don't agree either with the intuitive approach to "ban first, it might cause damage." Anh_Minh points out very succinctly of the existence of a opposite hypothesis, neither of which is supported by actual research. To buy into one to the exclusion of another displays a pre-existing bias.

The "safety valve" theory as aptly named by Vexx = Catharsis, has been discussed and written about by philosophers throughout the ages:

"It is the human soul that is purged of its excessive passions."
"In real life, he explained, men are sometimes too much addicted to pity or fear, sometimes too little; tragedy brings them back to a virtuous and happy mean."
- Aristotle

[Narona]

Originally Posted by npcomplete

But Narona, it still doesn't account for the orders of magnitude difference between Japan and the rest of the world. Even if the amount of actual occurrences in Japan turns out to be twice as high, it's still 20x less than the US!

So it still begs the question, why so? I mean, if this kind of expression is so bad for society, why is Japan still one of the safest places to live in the world?

An analogous example would be a comparison of drug problems (crimes, addiction, cartel wars) in countries that have hard line drug laws and those that have legalized drugs.

*Hopes to not get another bad rep just because she explains something* <.< ^^

To estimate the number of rapes in a country, you can't just count the cases that went on the criminal court (I "guess" they just counted those cases, I am not even sure from where they took their number on this online chart), at least in France it's like that.

As i said in my previous post, try to understand that the justice systems, how they judge each cases etc., are not all the same in every countries. So, given the different methods, laws etc. used to count/estimate the cases of rapes in each country, you can't compare a number to the one of another country just like as if every country were the same, as if the laws were exactly the same in every country, as if the justice systems worked the same way.

As i said, about France, there's only one recent serious National study made by experts on this particular topic, and it was in 2001.

To be able to make good comparisons based on the estimated numbers of rapes from each country, the job would have to be done as a serious study with details, by the same experts, based on the same laws, using the same method etc. Or at least, like when a study dares giving details and informations from other countries, to discuss serious studies that don't only throw numbers without explaining anything.

[izmosmolnar]

Well, if whatever future study going to show me a genuine, provable relation between the games involving forced sexual intercourses and the actual crime, and basing it on that study we ban all such kind of games, I sincerely hope those guys won't start playing murder action games.
Because if those sick persons can be so "easily influenced", then I don't see the reason why not to believe, the murder games won't have the same effect on them. (And even though I'm far from gay, I actually feel more worried about being killed, than getting buttraped anyway).

[wao]

Well I think it looks like an autonomous investigation committee within the PC gaming industry has announced that they're banning the production and sale of "humiliation games", known in Japanese as 凌辱系 (ryoujoku-kei)...

The genre comprises of up to 20% of games according to the article, and it looks like they're all going to be banned?

They're starting work on this on the 2nd of June, I believe, and will be approaching around 200 companies to enforce this...

Source: http://news.tbs.co.jp/newseye/tbs_newseye4143799.html

I believe this 'investigation committee' is the EOCS, or Ethics Organisation of Computer Software, called コンピュータソフトウェア倫理機構 in Japanese (ソフ論, Sofurin, for short)
I don't know much about the way these things are organised but my understanding is that they're going to crack down by means of self-regulation, as opposed to legislation... I really hope it doesn't become legislation.

There's also another similar organisation, the Contents Soft Association (previously known as メディア倫理協会, or メディ倫 for short) that now works in a similar capacity to EOCS, and is known to be softer in its regulations with member companies, among which there's age and Nitroplus. Some think that those under EOCS will be moving to CSA, but the Moonphase dude thinks CSA will come out with a similar announcement soon (as well as one from the Nihon Ethics Video Association, the original adult media ethics organisation, but I think they changed their name, didn't they?)

[izmosmolnar]

So if I understand it correctly, about less than 20%-ish of the current existing japanese games (mostly VNs) are going to be banned in Japan? And most probably games with higher rate of "humiliation" are never again going to be developed officially?
What about such games where the humiliations are not caused by sex? Are those going to be banned too? (Humiliation is a pretty wide concept).
Are they even offering a chance to "reedit" some of the related games, or they ban instantly?

[Throne Invader]

In my opinion, I think the games should just be banned. If you ban the games, people except maybe the producers have nothing to lose. It's their fault for making such morbid games. They themselves have to imagine the scenes in order to put them in the game. Ughhh *shivers* If you don't ban them, it's like you're promoting the games. You don't even have to do anything, but it's like you're telling people it's alright to purchase such material. The world is already in a hell of a bad shape. Why add more matches to the fire?

Yes, television can also affect a child's mind or maybe even an adult or teen. But as I said it's already bad enough, why add these type of games for more entertainment? Not to mention that having desires to rape a child is weeeiiiiirdddd. And if you play those games, it won't only affect your thinking but if caught, will also affect how people think of you. In general, these games are disgusting. Throw em away. Burn em. Whatever. Believe me guys, it's really for your own good and you'll live a much more happier life rather than being bonded to such games.(Hope I'm not being too motherly)Get out more and socialize

Hurray that those "humiliation" games have been banned. May we look forward to a brighter future

[serenade_beta]

*spits on the ground*
Damn it all......

[Narona]

Originally Posted by AmoreDoll

Hurray that those "humiliation" games have been banned. May we look forward to a brighter future

There are still not banned yet

Spoiler for Don't read this if you're not AmoreDoll :3:

I will join your party to celebrate it if they ever success to ban them (which I still doubt...) :3

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by wao

Well I think it looks like an autonomous investigation committee within the PC gaming industry has announced that they're banning the production and sale of "humiliation games", known in Japanese as 凌辱系 (ryoujoku-kei)...

The genre comprises of up to 20% of games according to the article, and it looks like they're all going to be banned?

They're starting work on this on the 2nd of June, I believe, and will be approaching around 200 companies to enforce this...

Source: http://news.tbs.co.jp/newseye/tbs_newseye4143799.html

I believe this 'investigation committee' is the EOCS, or Ethics Organisation of Computer Software, called コンピュータソフトウェア倫理機構 in Japanese (ソフ論, Sofurin, for short)
I don't know much about the way these things are organised but my understanding is that they're going to crack down by means of self-regulation, as opposed to legislation... I really hope it doesn't become legislation.

There's also another similar organisation, the Contents Soft Association (previously known as メディア倫理協会, or メディ倫 for short) that now works in a similar capacity to EOCS, and is known to be softer in its regulations with member companies, among which there's age and Nitroplus. Some think that those under EOCS will be moving to CSA, but the Moonphase dude thinks CSA will come out with a similar announcement soon (as well as one from the Nihon Ethics Video Association, the original adult media ethics organisation, but I think they changed their name, didn't they?)

Good news

I will join the party too if they ban them

[Solafighter]

"Why you think, the net was born, porn, porn, porn."

Other countries, other.. tastes?

[justavisitor]

While we are at it, let's ban counter-strike also
and then we will ban racing game, because speeding in real life can cost ppl's lives.
and solitaire should be banned also, because the kids will know the card too early and it may lead to gambling habit...
oh yeah, let's also ban alcohol, because drunk driving is no good
etc etc etc

I don't know laws in other countries, but in english system, I thought ppl need mens rea (mental) and actus reus (action) in order to commit a crime?? so thinking or playing those stuff without doing it in real life should be ok right?? And then why we need to set a limit like you can drink alcohol 18 and up?? if banning is necessary then we don't need the age requirement right? let's ban them all and then harmony will arrive...

I mean, we need to set a principle, we can't randomly ban somethings just because someone is not pleased with it

[wao]

What seems to be unclear is what their definition of "ryoujoku games" is. Does it include games where the whole thing is about rape? What about otherwise normal eroge that have a rape ending? How intense is intense? And so on.

As far as I understand there's nothing stopping companies from striking it out on their own and not being in either ethics organisation, thus not subject to the new rules, but probably risking being ostracised... I guess.

I don't really know, I've never touched an eroge in my life - I'm just interested in this issue more because of its implications and the leeway for further banning in content because enough people think it's icky. I get the impression that stuff happened because it was a foreign group, not a local one, that complained.

Also, it feels like this industry is a soft target (AV is more established and has some hard power behind it *coughyakuzacough*) that could be made to bend easily... Well, we'll see what happens.

EDIT: And remember this isn't legislation, but more along the lines of industry self-censorship, so it has nothing to do with the law system of Japan. Not explicitly, anyway.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by AmoreDoll

In my opinion, I think the games should just be banned. If you ban the games, people except maybe the producers have nothing to lose. It's their fault for making such morbid games. They themselves have to imagine the scenes in order to put them in the game. Ughhh *shivers* If you don't ban them, it's like you're promoting the games. You don't even have to do anything, but it's like you're telling people it's alright to purchase such material. The world is already in a hell of a bad shape. Why add more matches to the fire?

First, prove that games are "matches for the fire". Instead of, say, a harmless outlet for pre-existing desires. Also note, it doesn't even have to be one or the other.

Yes, television can also affect a child's mind or maybe even an adult or teen. But as I said it's already bad enough, why add these type of games for more entertainment?

Why not? And, again, you've yet to prove it's bad. I'm honestly more concerned about Reality TV...

Not to mention that having desires to rape a child is weeeiiiiirdddd.

So's being pro-censorship. Go surrender yourself to the police right now, you thought police freak.

And if you play those games, it won't only affect your thinking but if caught, will also affect how people think of you.

A chance some are willing to take. It's not up to you to decide they shouldn't.

In general, these games are disgusting. Throw em away. Burn em.

So... tempted... to make a "your mom" joke...

Explain why you're so important your feelings of disgust should be basis for our laws?

Whatever. Believe me guys, it's really for your own good and you'll live a much more happier life rather than being bonded to such games.

Believe me girl, you'll be happier if you stop trying to decide for other people where their happiness lies.

(Hope I'm not being too motherly)

Not motherly, no, kid.

Get out more and socialize

Hurray that those "humiliation" games have been banned. May we look forward to a brighter future

Yay, thought police. I'm so looking forward to it. I just want to say, I welcome our new telepathic helicopter overlords.


(For those who didn't catch it: I know my post's full of hypocrisy. I'm not actually trying to censor anyone, not even pro-censorship people.)

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yay, thought police. I'm so looking forward to it. I just want to say, I welcome our new telepathic helicopter overlords.

(For those who didn't catch it: I know my post's full of hypocrisy. I'm not actually trying to censor anyone, not even pro-censorship people.)

I will not say hypocrisy, but as many people said, "it's not up to us to decide blablabla", but when "supposed" (*i* suppose the ones behind that are not all soccer moms) competent people take actions that don't follow the opinions of people (from both sides, and i don't only talk about people here on AS) they are automatically categorized as incompetent and idiotic.

Sorry to feel a bit (just a bit) pleased about that news :3 Even if, as I said, I doubt it will end in a ban since it's not a legislation.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Narona

I will not say hypocrisy, but as many people said, "it's not up to us to decide blablabla", but when "supposed" (*i* suppose the ones behind that are not all soccer moms)

I don't suppose soccer moms are the only ones who use their personal feelings in lieu of scientific reasoning either.

competent people take actions that don't follow the opinions of people (from both sides, and i don't only talk about people here on AS) they are automatically categorized as incompetent and idiotic.

That immediately begs the question of what they're competent in. Competent at demagoguery? If they had actual studies backing up their decisions, they'd have made it known. If they don't - then how is their opinion more valuable than "that bloke at the pub told me"?