Okay what is moe?

[HurricaneHige]

Didn't 'moe' came to be when it described the act of 'inner passion being lit/growing', which is what the word actually meant in Japanese, the act of 'budding'.

To follow that logic, anything, girl/guy/thing that can provoke that feeling would be considered 'moe'. It doesn't have to be cute, weak or adorable. Boy's Love can be 'moe' to Female Otaku just as much as Tsunderes are 'moe' for me, or anyone who likes Tsunderes.

I do agree that moe is so overused nowadays, just like epic, legendary, hardcore to name a few.

[RandySyler]

Is Tsukasa from Lucky Star a stereotypical moe (clumsy, short "cute" hair, big spirit)? Lucky Star has a lot of stereotype character types from animes and references.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Sure, drawing style =/= moe. But anything with the art design of something like a KEY work, it is almost always guaranteed to be an anime filled with moe.

But then people start thinking that because it's not drawn like something you'd see in KEY then it's not moe,that's why I don't like associating the two.

And then there's the people that think moe has to be sexualised,just look something like this post , I havn't replied because I don't want to derail the original topic,it seems like an honest misconception more than anything.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Sure, drawing style =/= moe. But anything with the art design of something like a KEY work, it is almost always guaranteed to be an anime filled with moe.

It doesn't need to have that artstyle to be a moe anime* (ex: Lucky Star, etc) and it can have that art style and not be a moe anime* (ex: I actually am drawing a blank, mostly due to the next sentence). But your statement is more of a generic statement toward the entire galge/eroge industry since they basically run on the idea of "moe" and that style of character designs. There are exceptions out there though.

*Used in the "proper" sense of the term.

[HurricaneHige]

Originally Posted by RandySyler

Is Tsukasa from Lucky Star a stereotypical moe (clumsy, short "cute" hair, big spirit)? Lucky Star has a lot of stereotype character types from animes and references.

Moe-characteristics are personalities or physical traits that spark the 'moe' feeling, anything can be considered 'moe', but 'natural airheadedness', 'cute', 'bob-cut hair' are considered high up in a lot of otaku's 'moe' list. Most characters in Lucky Star are done incorporating highly valued moe-characteristic in mind, so yes Tsukasa is 'moe'. Same thing with her sister: Twintails and tsundere.

As for the drawstyle argument, a lot of eroge and galge nowadays are using the cuter, big eyes, borderline loli style of drawing, or the 'moe'-style. The style itself is not the 'moe', but the elements that make up the drawing style is.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by RandySyler

Is Tsukasa from Lucky Star a stereotypical moe (clumsy, short "cute" hair, big spirit)? Lucky Star has a lot of stereotype character types from animes and references.

Almost EVERY character in Lucky*Star can generate a feeling of 'moe'. Kagami generated tons of 'moe' in Japan (as did the others). Twintails and tsundere are 'moe' to many Japanese fans.

For an American/French version of 'moe', watch "Despicable Me" and observe the 3 girls. The smallest one in particular would have almost any viewer who called themselves human dripping moe. And then she layers it herself by going hyper 'moe' over a unicorn plushie at one point: "Its so fluffy I could just DIE!!!!" (high pitched squeak)

[ClannadDango]

Okay so it's cuteness??? Or personal traits??? I'm still confused, the wikipedia definition is not clear, plus I only recently learned of this word.

(Btw why did someone tag my thread as "troll"? This is a serious question.)

[HurricaneHige]

Originally Posted by ClannadDango

Okay so it's cuteness??? Or personal traits??? I'm still confused, the wikipedia definition is not clear, plus I only recently learned of this word.

Originally Posted by HurricaneHige

Didn't 'moe' came to be when it described the act of 'inner passion being lit/growing', which is what the word actually meant in Japanese, the act of 'budding'.

To follow that logic, anything, girl/guy/thing that can provoke that feeling would be considered 'moe'. It doesn't have to be cute, weak or adorable. Boy's Love can be 'moe' to Female Otaku just as much as Tsunderes are 'moe' for me, or anyone who likes Tsunderes.

I do agree that moe is so overused nowadays, just like epic, legendary, hardcore to name a few.

Originally Posted by HurricaneHige

Moe-characteristics are personalities or physical traits that spark the 'moe' feeling, anything can be considered 'moe'.

Sorry for quoting myself, but I think I made it rather clear what the 'moe' meant from my previous post. Just take a minute to actually read it. Oh...and for a more detailed read you can read this post from first page:

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Tempster's definition of "charm" is a great starting point, but I'm going to be a bit more detailed.

The way I understand it, moe is slang that plays on the Japanese words for burning and blossoming.

So basically, a burning passion for a blossoming (youthful) girl. It's something you feel, ie. "I am moe for Kotomi Ichinose."

I consider a character moe if they evoke one or more of the following feelings:
1) "Brain melt" (ie. so cute, can't think...)
2) Warmth/"warm and fuzzy"
3) Charm or playful excitement

The characters that cause feelings 2) and 3) are often quite different for me: Nadeko (Bakemonogatari) and Kotomi (Clannad) are warm characters, Hitagi (Bakemonogatari) and Matsuri (Sola) are charming/exciting ones.

A moe character may or may not be sexually attractive. Age can vary as long as they exhibit youthful traits (I can name immortal characters and MILFs who are moe). Male characters can be moe although male moe characters tend to come across as fairly feminine for a guy (at least to me).

Also, note that when a character one is moe for is threatened, it usually draws a very strong emotional response. Many shows take advantage of this.



To be specific, this definition originates from AFK's fansubs of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya from back in 2006. AFK is a good sub group, but they tend to place a lot of emphasis on natural sounding English and "localizing" humour rather than accuracy, so they're not a good source for exact definitions.

Except the bold part, although a moe character may or may not be sexually attractive, it also does not have to be exhibit youthful traits. Loli and youthful traits in itself is also a widely accepted moe-trait, but it does not have to be a deciding one. A character can be moe even if she/he is not 'youthful' as long as she has other 'moe' traits that makes the viewers/readers goes 'moe'.

What OutFoxZero described above would be what is 'moe' to him, 'youthful' and 'feminine trap' are two traits that he would considered 'moe', and others that he did not mention. To me, 'youthful' would be one but not 'feminine trap'. Everyone's moe is different, but as long as it makes you warm and fuzzy inside it is considered 'moe'. IE, a matured seductive dressed character with a tsundere personality is still a 'moe' character because she has several 'moe'-traits: Tsundere and sexy. (One could even argue maturity can be 'moe' if she is quiet/refined)

I'm not saying feminine traps are not moe, it's just not moe to me. Remember, there are no definite requirements for a character to be 'moe' as long as it display some character traits/physical traits that would incite the feeling.

[ClannadDango]

Originally Posted by HurricaneHige

Sorry for quoting myself, but I think I made it rather clear what the 'moe' meant from my previous post. Just take a minute to actually read it. Oh...and for a more detailed read you can read this post from first page:


Except the bold part, although a moe character may or may not be sexually attractive, it also does not have to be exhibit youthful traits. Loli and youthful traits in itself is also a widely accepted moe-trait, but it does not have to be a deciding one. A character can be moe even if she/he is not 'youthful' as long as she has other 'moe' traits that makes the viewers/readers goes 'moe'.

What OutFoxZero described above would be what is 'moe' to him, 'youthful' and 'feminine trap' are two traits that he would considered 'moe', and others that he did not mention. To me, 'youthful' would be one but not 'feminine trap'. Everyone's moe is different, but as long as it makes you warm and fuzzy inside it is considered 'moe'. IE, a matured seductive dressed character with a tsundere personality is still a 'moe' character because she has several 'moe'-traits: Tsundere and sexy. (One could even argue maturity can be 'moe' if she is quiet/refined)

I'm not saying feminine traps are not moe, it's just not moe to me. Remember, there are no definite requirements for a character to be 'moe' as long as it display some character traits/physical traits that would incite the feeling.

Okay thanks. I just didn't understand your definition of "budding" at first. I problem I guess is that I'm looking for a perfect english word that is a translation of the world "moe" but it appears such as word does not exist.

I've only just recently heard of this word and wanted to know what it meant as numerous people are telling me the anime contains "moe".

Thanks for your help. I think that last definition helped.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by totoum

But then people start thinking that because it's not drawn like something you'd see in KEY then it's not moe,that's why I don't like associating the two.

I'm not quite sure where these concerns are grounded. Ryougi Shiki (Kara no Kyoukai aka Garden of sinners) is being featured in some of the moe tournaments, and uhm... Yeah I personally find that quite questionable.

The problem right now is that the term is thrown around at everything by the supposed people who know what "moe" is. IMO the broad use of the term has more to do so with the people involved in the moe community than it does with people berating shows for being moe because they have a cute girl here or there.

Originally Posted by bayoab

It doesn't need to have that artstyle to be a moe anime* (ex: Lucky Star, etc) and it can have that art style and not be a moe anime* (ex: I actually am drawing a blank, mostly due to the next sentence). But your statement is more of a generic statement toward the entire galge/eroge industry since they basically run on the idea of "moe" and that style of character designs. There are exceptions out there though.

*Used in the "proper" sense of the term.

Which is missing my point. First people think the term has become too broad, now they're saying that what they think I said is confining the term too much.

I think it is clear to me that people will never be satisfied with how the term is used, and they probably should discard it.

[ClannadDango]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Tempster's definition of "charm" is a great starting point, but I'm going to be a bit more detailed.

The way I understand it, moe is slang that plays on the Japanese words for burning and blossoming.

So basically, a burning passion for a blossoming (youthful) girl. It's something you feel, ie. "I am moe for Kotomi Ichinose."

I consider a character moe if they evoke one or more of the following feelings:
1) "Brain melt" (ie. so cute, can't think...)
2) Warmth/"warm and fuzzy"
3) Charm or playful excitement

The characters that cause feelings 2) and 3) are often quite different for me: Nadeko (Bakemonogatari) and Kotomi (Clannad) are warm characters, Hitagi (Bakemonogatari) and Matsuri (Sola) are charming/exciting ones.

A moe character may or may not be sexually attractive. Age can vary as long as they exhibit youthful traits (I can name immortal characters and MILFs who are moe). Male characters can be moe although male moe characters tend to come across as fairly feminine for a guy (at least to me).

Also, note that when a character one is moe for is threatened, it usually draws a very strong emotional response. Many shows take advantage of this.



To be specific, this definition originates from AFK's fansubs of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya from back in 2006. AFK is a good sub group, but they tend to place a lot of emphasis on natural sounding English and "localizing" humour rather than accuracy, so they're not a good source for exact definitions.

I like your definition, it's easier than wikipedia's to understand.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by HurricaneHige

Except the bold part, although a moe character may or may not be sexually attractive, it also does not have to be exhibit youthful traits. Loli and youthful traits in itself is also a widely accepted moe-trait, but it does not have to be a deciding one. A character can be moe even if she/he is not 'youthful' as long as she has other 'moe' traits that makes the viewers/readers goes 'moe'.

What OutFoxZero described above would be what is 'moe' to him, 'youthful' and 'feminine trap' are two traits that he would considered 'moe', and others that he did not mention. To me, 'youthful' would be one but not 'feminine trap'. Everyone's moe is different, but as long as it makes you warm and fuzzy inside it is considered 'moe'. IE, a matured seductive dressed character with a tsundere personality is still a 'moe' character because she has several 'moe'-traits: Tsundere and sexy. (One could even argue maturity can be 'moe' if she is quiet/refined)

I'm not saying feminine traps are not moe, it's just not moe to me. Remember, there are no definite requirements for a character to be 'moe' as long as it display some character traits/physical traits that would incite the feeling.

I didn't mean that I find feminine traps moe, I meant that male characters I find moe tend to be feminine. A good example of a male character I find to be moe would be Renji Asou from EF: A Tale of Memories. A cute, idealistic bookworm who is a bit shy, especially around girls - personally, I can't help but cheer him on once he starts to pursue Chihiro. It's just that many of his personality traits are ones that would (traditionally) be considered feminine.

The "youthful" bit is (to me, at least) implied by the "blossoming" connotations of the word moe. I just brought it up to demonstrate the difference between youthful and young characters - Matsuri Shihou (Sola) and Sanae Furukawa (Clannad) are youthful but not young.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I'm not quite sure where these concerns are grounded. Ryougi Shiki (Kara no Kyoukai aka Garden of sinners) is being featured in some of the moe tournaments, and uhm... Yeah I personally find that quite questionable.

While I agree that if you have Key style art, you almost always have moe, I understand Totoum's perspective here. I don't like to describe moe as an art style because I feel it gets people to concentrate on associated traits rather than the core of the concept. Same reason I dislike it when Mikuru is used as an example of moe character traits... she's one end of the moe spectrum, whereas at the other end you have characters like Rin Tohsaka and Kuroneko. As a moe fan, I prefer to have people recognize that I have fairly broad tastes.

Otome Youkai Zakuro is actually a good example of a show that is moe without a moe artstyle - the major girls are all examples of major moe archetypes (very well executed ones, I might add), but the show uses a lot of shoujo style artwork and stylistic cues.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

The problem right now is that the term is thrown around at everything by the supposed people who know what "moe" is. IMO the broad use of the term has more to do so with the people involved in the moe community than it does with people berating shows for being moe because they have a cute girl here or there.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Which is missing my point. First people think the term has become too broad, now they're saying that what they think I said is confining the term too much.

I think it is clear to me that people will never be satisfied with how the term is used, and they probably should discard it.

The broad use of the term is fairly deliberate - like I said, many of us try to demonstrate the breadth of the concept when given the opportunity.

That said, I have gradually added associated characteristics to my definition of moe in an attempt to make it at least somewhat specific. As it stands, my definition is something like this:

"A passion for a youthful female character, not necessarily sexual in nature and usually stemming from her being adorable or charming."

[NoemiChan]

I thought "moe" is what you call to someone who acts like exactly like them/her/him


"Woah... Moe! (thumbs up)

[HurricaneHige]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

The "youthful" bit is (to me, at least) implied by the "blossoming" connotations of the word moe. I just brought it up to demonstrate the difference between youthful and young characters - Matsuri Shihou (Sola) and Sanae Furukawa (Clannad) are youthful but not young.

Here's where the difference is.

I understand your usage of the word youthful, but it is also why I disagree. A character does not have to be youthful to be moe. Meaning, she/he doesn't have to look like a young person (even if she's 100 years old) to be moe. Loli and youth are moe-traits and not definition, just like tsundere are moe-traits, but a non-tsundere can still be moe.

Best example I could think of would be Ryoko from Yakushiji Ryōko no Kaiki Jikenbo. She is beautiful but not young, she's 27 and looked 27. She's still moe because of she's beautiful and her tsundere behaviour.

The term 'moe' is so general hence the difficulty to properly define it. If I may, I would like to edit your definition just a little:

"An affectionate feeling for a character, but not necessarily sexual in nature."

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

While I agree that if you have Key style art, you almost always have moe, I understand Totoum's perspective here. I don't like to describe moe as an art style because I feel it gets people to concentrate on associated traits rather than the core of the concept. Same reason I dislike it when Mikuru is used as an example of moe character traits... she's one end of the moe spectrum, whereas at the other end you have characters like Rin Tohsaka and Kuroneko. As a moe fan, I prefer to have people recognize that I have fairly broad tastes.

That's fine. I never said anything against that specifically.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

The broad use of the term is fairly deliberate - like I said, many of us try to demonstrate the breadth of the concept when given the opportunity.

That said, I have gradually added associated characteristics to my definition of moe in an attempt to make it at least somewhat specific. As it stands, my definition is something like this:

"A passion for a youthful female character, not necessarily sexual in nature and usually stemming from her being adorable or charming."

Which is where I find a problem. Now that is not necessarily directed at you personally, but from what I've seen of the moe community, their attempts at defining the term are so elusive that only they would know what it means.

To me it comes off as an attempt to deflect any and all criticism to their brand since every time someone says something about moe, they either say "Well that's not really moe," or , "That's only a certain type of moe." It cannot both be a very strictly confined and broad definition at the same time.

When I discuss something like the genre of horror, we have a FAIRLY good idea of what we are talking about. Genres are already broad enough, and if people who promote the so called "moe" genre want to be taken seriously, they have to allow grounded criticisms stick to it, otherwise it is a useless term.

Sure each genre might have a little bit different spin on some areas, and there are nuances wherever you go, but the basic core idea is there. Right now, the moe community simply doesn't want to accept what exactly this core idea is, and as far as I can see, there is no reason to respect such an inadequate term.

IMO, it makes it a little hard to discuss the topic, and that's why the term I said should be discarded since one seemingly can't criticize it in any form. It might be better to just go back to the days before the word moe ever came about in mass popularity.

[klare]

from what i undretsand:

if u like girls with glasses, then girls with glasses are moe for u

if u like girls in school uniform, then girls in school uniform are moe for u

if u like girls with bossy attitude, then girls with bossy attitude are moe for u

a moe character should be one that has the elements u like or attract u

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

That's fine. I never said anything against that specifically.



Which is where I find a problem. Now that is not necessarily directed at you personally, but from what I've seen of the moe community, their attempts at defining the term are so elusive that only they would know what it means.

To me it comes off as an attempt to deflect any and all criticism to their brand since every time someone says something about moe, they either say "Well that's not really moe," or , "That's only a certain type of moe." It cannot both be a very strictly confined and broad definition at the same time.

When I discuss something like the genre of horror, we have a FAIRLY good idea of what we are talking about. Genres are already broad enough, and if people who promote the so called "moe" genre want to be taken seriously, they have to allow grounded criticisms stick to it, otherwise it is a useless term.

Sure each genre might have a little bit different spin on some areas, and there are nuances wherever you go, but the basic core idea is there. Right now, the moe community simply doesn't want to accept what exactly this core idea is, and as far as I can see, there is no reason to respect such an inadequate term.

IMO, it makes it a little hard to discuss the topic, and that's why the term I said should be discarded since one seemingly can't criticize it in any form. It might be better to just go back to the days before the word moe ever came about in mass popularity.

On the horror example.. do you like psychological horror, fantasy horror, or real grim horror? Note the connection is that you feel horrified and that "a horror fan" is not often a fan of all three. The connection here is that you FEEL moe about something. Moe is not something a character *is*, its the reaction of a viewer to the character, the feeling generated.
That is where many western fans, be they be pro-moe or anti-moe, fall off the wagon. It isn't an inherent attribute of the character - the character has traits that invoke moe in some viewers. Practical upshot in the industry: the viewers with the biggest wallets tend to drive the creation of characters that invoke moe in them and like any fad the producers go to the well too often.

[HurricaneHige]

Originally Posted by Vexx

On the horror example.. do you like psychological horror, fantasy horror, or real grim horror? Note the connection is that you feel horrified and that "a horror fan" is not often a fan of all three. The connection here is that you FEEL moe about something. Moe is not something a character *is*, its the reaction of a viewer to the character, the feeling generated.
That is where many western fans, be they be pro-moe or anti-moe, fall off the wagon. It isn't an inherent attribute of the character - the character has traits that invoke moe in some viewers. Practical upshot in the industry: the viewers with the biggest wallets tend to drive the creation of characters that invoke moe in them and like any fad the producers go to the well too often.

Exactly. There shouldn't be a 'guideline' or a list of 'requirement' for a character to be moe, because frankly, that's not how this term is used. You can't say that a character MUST be a tsundere or loli before she's moe. The term is suppose to be broad because it needs to encompass every trait known to man that can incite the feeling of 'burning passion'.

I also use the term 'moe anime' to dismiss anime often. The context though its because the creators/designer designed the story and characters that cater to the largest or most popular 'moe'-traits. For example, loli, cat ears, tsundere are some of the traits that are massively popular among anime otakus. If an anime is designing characters and story with that in mind, and the main selling point IS the two, then I classify that under 'moe-anime' and drop it before it hurts my brain.

You can have moe characters in an anime, but if it is the sole selling point then the anime becomes a waste of time. (i seem to have gone off on a tangent...)

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by HurricaneHige

I also use the term 'moe anime' to dismiss anime often. The context though its because the creators/designer designed the story and characters that cater to the largest or most popular 'moe'-traits. For example, loli, cat ears, tsundere are some of the traits that are massively popular among anime otakus. If an anime is designing characters and story with that in mind, and the main selling point IS the two, then I classify that under 'moe-anime' and drop it before it hurts my brain.

You can have moe characters in an anime, but if it is the sole selling point then the anime becomes a waste of time. (i seem to have gone off on a tangent...)

Yeah, at some point you stop feeling like you're watching a story and are simply being manipulated by "producers with a checklist". It gets worse in rough economic times when they're afraid to try something new. I'll concede that along with the "lets stick THIS in it and lure the X crowd in!!!". X can be 'cat-ears', 'mecha', or 'ginormous boobs'. The rarer good anime comes when producers rise above the "lets make money" bar.

A large reason for a good deal of anime is that it appeals to the closet-otaku salaryman who just wants to relax and be nostalgic about simpler times (that may never have really existed but so what?). They're the ones with the wallets...

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by HurricaneHige

Best example I could think of would be Ryoko from Yakushiji Ryōko no Kaiki Jikenbo. She is beautiful but not young, she's 27 and looked 27. She's still moe because of she's beautiful and her tsundere behaviour.

Judging by the pictures I've found, I'd say she gives off a bit of a "playful but mature" vibe - similar to the one given off by Hitagi Senjougahara, actually.

So yes, there are moe varieties in which "mature" plays a role, and characters who look and act 27 still fit. I do think there's an upper bound on perceived age somewhere, though - IMO there's a certain "vitality" that a character has to have to be moe.

I still hold that moe is the result of adorable or charming (mature and playful is charming) traits though.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Which is where I find a problem. Now that is not necessarily directed at you personally, but from what I've seen of the moe community, their attempts at defining the term are so elusive that only they would know what it means.

To me it comes off as an attempt to deflect any and all criticism to their brand since every time someone says something about moe, they either say "Well that's not really moe," or , "That's only a certain type of moe." It cannot both be a very strictly confined and broad definition at the same time.

When I discuss something like the genre of horror, we have a FAIRLY good idea of what we are talking about. Genres are already broad enough, and if people who promote the so called "moe" genre want to be taken seriously, they have to allow grounded criticisms stick to it, otherwise it is a useless term.

Ah, so we're talking moe as a genre and not just a concept.

Here's my question: do we actually have a good idea what we're talking about when we talk about moe as a "genre"?

Let's take a look at three moe shows: K-On!, EF, and Ga-rei Zero. The first is a slice of life comedy, the second a romance drama, and the third an action-drama. All three contain recognizably moe characters and artwork.

Now, I rarely see criticisms of EF or Ga-rei. I do see two criticisms commonly leveled against K-On!: that it idolizes stupid and/or unassertive girls, and that the characters are essentially laser targeted at certain moe traits to their detriment as well rounded characters.

Those are valid criticisms of K-On!, and if I want to defend that show, I'd have to come up with some counter-points (which I can do if anyone is interested, but probably a bit off topic here). I do not think they're particularly valid criticisms of EF or Ga-rei Zero.

Truth be told, some criticisms of one show can be applied to the genre as a whole. For example, I believe that the preference many moe fans have for "weird and zany" girls leads many creators to create moe characters that are as much caricatures as characters. "Idolizes stupid and/or unassertive girls" I don't agree with as a criticism of the entire genre though - first, because there's a lot of Tohsakas, Senjougaharas, and Kurenekos out there, second, because I think a lot of moe fans appreciate the charm of characters like Yui or Ayu without idolizing them.

Basically, if you want me to allow a criticism to stick to the moe genre, you do have to show its pretty broad based. Arguments like "moe generally involves a sexual element because Key originally made porn games and Key is very popular" aren't really going to cut it because the evidence is too narrow (and debatable - what made Key popular?).

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Sure each genre might have a little bit different spin on some areas, and there are nuances wherever you go, but the basic core idea is there. Right now, the moe community simply doesn't want to accept what exactly this core idea is, and as far as I can see, there is no reason to respect such an inadequate term.

I would say that many moe fans are lacking in the area of "basic theory" of what moe is. This is partly the result of inadequate resources on the concept - I developed most of my theories on the subject through first hand observations on moe shows and discussions with a small circle of like minded individuals. Looking back on it, I certainly didn't have an adequate understanding of the concept in my first couple years as a moe fan. It doesn't help that the resources provided by sites like ANN and TVtropes often don't capture the concept that well (IMO).