Fate/Zero - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[GDB]

The writer is not an amateur. It's boring to the reader to have to play along with a character while they deduce who someone is, when the reader already knows. It only works for Lancer and Berserker, because we did not know who they were upon introduction.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by .:Jason:.

^ I think they meant into the characters figuring out, not the audience.

Considering how pretty much every Master seems to have familiars or whatever spying on every battle they manage to catch a glimpse of, I daresay it won't take long for the Servants' identities to become common knowledge for all the participants.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

You should be telling Shinbo that .

I don't know if you're just joking around here, but a writer can have as much impact on fight scenes as a director does. Even in a written form, combat can be presented in considerable detail.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by GDB

The writer is not an amateur. It's boring to the reader to have to play along with a character while they deduce who someone is, when the reader already knows. It only works for Lancer and Berserker, because we did not know who they were upon introduction.

Well, like we said, we are more or less told the identity of six of the servants from the start, and really none of their identities were spoilers. Only Berserker's identity remains unknown.

And I am sad because I know I will never be as awesome as Rider.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't know if you're just joking around here, but a writer can have as much impact on fight scenes as a director does. Even in a written form, combat can be presented in considerable detail.

No doubt, but directing has the largest impact on the fights (Well production values too of course). Consider the difference between this fight and the fights in the fate/stay night anime. There really was no good reason for such a disparity except for DEEN having a combination of poor directing and production values.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Consider the difference between this fight and the fights in the fate/stay night anime. There really was no good reason for such a disparity except for DEEN having a combination of poor directing and production values.

Yeah, I agree with you there. Most of the fights in Fate/Stay Night weren't as good as the one in this episode was. And Lancer definitely came off as more impressive here in Fate/Zero than he did in Fate/Stay Night.

Honestly, in the original Fate/Stay Night, Lancer and Rider both felt like flashy jobbers to me, to put it in pro wrestling terms.

Here, Lancer comes across as a very serious threat, and someone who could conceivably defeat Saber.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't know if you're just joking around here, but a writer can have as much impact on fight scenes as a director does. Even in a written form, combat can be presented in considerable detail.

I too was puzzled by your comment at first,but if you mean that the dialogue and tactics then I disagree because unlike Lancer and Saber, Sayaka and Kyoko are not tacticians. They're kind of like Rider: just dive ride in there without thinking

Also fate zero being novels I suppose they'll be more detailed than the scripts Urobuchi did for Madoka,in those he basicly just put "insert action scene here" and let the folks at shaft do whatever they wanted.

[Guardian Enzo]

I'm surprised to see so much negativity about the fight scenes, because I thought they were beautifully animated. Sword vs. spear is a goldmine for great choreography, as witness Balsa vs. The Hunters in Seirei no Moribito, which is probably the gold standard for weapons combat in a TV anime. I don't put this on that level, but it was damn good, and accomplished without a huge reliance on CGI. I didn't find the camera tricks obtrusive at all - I thought it was very stylish and reminiscent of classic martial arts live-action movies.

[Archon_Wing]

"To win, but not destroy. To master, but not humiliate. That is true conquest!"

Solid as hell fight with Lancer being too eager showing Saber his spear; I hope to see more of this goodness. I guess there was a bit too much talking for my liking but it's certainly better than Deen/Don't Stay Night.

It was all overshadowed by Rider's epic entrance.

I have nothing else to say, so 8/10

[Guardian Enzo]

And that was the moment when Iskendar took a sharp turn away from the historical Alexander, not that it really matters.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by creb

I admit, the Assassin thing makes no sense. We just hear last episode that the Assassin class can remain undetected as their class trait.

Put it this way, a stealth bomber does not disappear into thin air right in front of you.
So apparently the magic barrier serves no purpose against scopes eh? :P
If not for those scopes, I doubt anyone would notice them.



Edit: Back on topic, love the strategic step-by-step, cat and mouse style kind of combat. Would expect to see more of a chaotic fight later as Rider joins the frame.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

That just means other servants/masters can't sense their presence, not that they are invisible you know.

And, yet, Emiya didn't detect Assassin by happening to see him by accident, but by feeling his presence as cinematically illustrated by the "gust of wind".

I mean, it doesn't really bother me, and it's not going to stop my enjoyment of the show, but just pointing out this seeming inconsistency concerning Assassin.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

that was some good grade fight scenes. Loved the choreography and boy was the animation top notch. I loved the whole "measuring up" style of fight they did carefully planning each attack. It was presented very well and although there was a lot of talking it didn't really detract much from the fight for me. Much of the talking added I think to the whole thought process of each warrior as they were planing there next strike.

As for Rider, nice speech, lol.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by creb

And, yet, Emiya didn't detect Assassin by happening to see him by accident, but by feeling his presence as cinematically illustrated by the "gust of wind".

What does a gust of wind have to do with being able to sense their presence?

[Zefris]

I love the last part of the episode. Saber and Lancer spend over half the episode trying to figure out who each other were while Rider jumps in and acts like he's announcing his entrance along with his name to the world.

I think I'd be happier if the fights were more continuous rather than taking breaks every couple of blows. Hopefully it was done that way just to give us an idea of the problems and strategies servants have to consider in a battle, and future episodes would be a bit more fast-pace leaving that detail out.

A 9/10 for me.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by GDB

Lancer didn't have any cheap moves until he used his NP. Saber hasn't used her's. Pretty sure that doesn't mean she doesn't have cheap moves.

By moves, I meant NPs. Sorry. And I know Saber hasn't used her's yet, but it's a rather straight forward attack.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yeah, I agree with you there. Most of the fights in Fate/Stay Night weren't as good as the one in this episode was. And Lancer definitely came off as more impressive here in Fate/Zero than he did in Fate/Stay Night.

Fate had some excellent fights. Berserker was pretty awesome. If only they did Heaven's Feel... Shirou was super bad ass in those fights.

Honestly, in the original Fate/Stay Night, Lancer and Rider both felt like flashy jobbers to me, to put it in pro wrestling terms.

Rider's outfit does look like something out of pro wrestling.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

"To win, but not destroy. To master, but not humiliate. That is true conquest!"

That cracked me up... it's so out of character, Alexander among other other things burned Persepolis to the ground because "To win, but not destroy", raped pretty much every noble kid in his wake, because "To master, but not humiliate", and he died midway during his campaign, leaving his poor generals to to consolidate an overextended and stretched army/kingdom, because "That is true conquest"

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I'm surprised to see so much negativity about the fight scenes, because I thought they were beautifully animated. Sword vs. spear is a goldmine for great choreography, as witness Balsa vs. The Hunters in Seirei no Moribito, which is probably the gold standard for weapons combat in a TV anime. I don't put this on that level, but it was damn good, and accomplished without a huge reliance on CGI. I didn't find the camera tricks obtrusive at all - I thought it was very stylish and reminiscent of classic martial arts live-action movies.

If I can voice on slight complain about the figth is that spear are almost never swang, plus the makes a cross block with the wooden shafts to block a vertical medieval metal double-edged longsword swing... IRL, that would have destroyed both spears, and sent him to his grave or wherever he came from That block is though part of ni-to ryuu and extremely effective at that, but performed with metal swords and always at a slight angle to dissipate gently the force of the attack.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

What does a gust of wind have to do with being able to sense their presence?

I'm trying to decide if you're purposefully being obtuse or not.

We have Assassin, who is supposed to be undetectable. Let's go with the definition where people can't sense their presence.

We have Emiya, about to take out Lancer's Master, when we have the "gust of wind". I called it a cinematic trick, because this is cinema, so unlike a novel where the author can just write, "Emiya senses Assassin", you need some sort of visual cue.

Emiya stops what he's doing, and points his gun straight at Assassin. Not sweeping around looking for the source of this presence he feels. But, straight at Assassin. So, not only does he feel Assassin's presence, he felt it so strongly he was able to immediately pinpoint Assassin's location. Now, we can chalk up his instantly locating Assassin due to his guess that the crane would be the best vantage point to watch what's going on, but that still doesn't answer how he detected the presence in the first place to cause him to stop his sniping and take a look at the crane.

Hence, my statement concerning Emiya being able to detect Assassin's presence when Assassin is supposed to be able to hide his presence.

[sento]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

That cracked me up... it's so out of character, Alexander among other other things burned Persepolis to the ground because "To win, but not destroy", raped pretty much every noble kid in his wake, because "To master, but not humiliate", and he died midway during his campaign, leaving his poor generals to to consolidate an overextended and stretched army/kingdom, because "That is true conquest"

That's historical Alexander, not mythical one (the one portrayed here with touchs of japanese hotblooded GARness.)

Originally Posted by Malkuth

If I can voice on slight complain about the figth is that spear are almost never swang, plus the makes a cross block with the wooden shafts to block a vertical medieval metal double-edged longsword swing... IRL, that would have destroyed both spears, and sent him to his grave or wherever he came from That block is though part of ni-to ryuu and extremely effective at that, but performed with metal swords and always at a slight angle to dissipate gently the force of the attack.

NPs are conceptual weapons, as first episode said, so they are really difficult to break. Like magic swords +1 in Tabletop RPGs.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

That cracked me up... it's so out of character, Alexander among other other things burned Persepolis to the ground because "To win, but not destroy", raped pretty much every noble kid in his wake, because "To master, but not humiliate", and he died midway during his campaign, leaving his poor generals to to consolidate an overextended and stretched army/kingdom, because "That is true conquest"

Yes, he was quite pissy when they didn't want to submit to him. And he had nothing more on his mind than conquest.

Of course, that's why we take liberties. =p