Mobile Suit Gundam AGE - Episode 32 Discussion

[brightman]

Originally Posted by monster

Even if that were true, that still means more work for her since they didn't even give her gold, but golden coins, not to mention she still has to sell the gold itself.

Its not like she has to cash it in a bank... There are always people out there looking to buy gold who wouldn't find the need to question where she got it. Makes a ton more sense than getting Vagan currency.

[Duo Maxwell]

Originally Posted by Korps!

The worst part of this being AGE putting stunts even more stupid than that. It's gundam for kids, what can we do? Super pilot, super pilot...

I don't see how it's worse than innovator. They are both on the same level.

[monster]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

But we also learn that paper money (which has no actual value but only represents an agreed upon value by the government which prints it, which then is traded on the market solely on the belief that the government sanctioning that paper money isn't about to go bust or collapse) is the first to lose its meaning when war comes. This is because when war hits the first to go is the banking system due to a number of factors like social panic which causes money and currency exchange to fluctuate in unpredictable ways, and when that happens cash and "money in the bank" in the form of credits literally means jack all (not to mention banks don't actually hold that much cash, we've had incidents like these many times when the public panics and wants to draw their "savings" the banks runs out of cash to give out). And this is when rare minerals rules (and even then probably not even as much as necessities like food and water).

Except that doesn't appear to be the case in AGE's Earth sphere.

Gold coins is actually easier to trade and sell because they have known purity. Nobody would want unprocessed gold.

This seems to be a more appropriate reply to Revolutionist than to me.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that she still has to do the work of selling them.

No more than she has to explain unknown amounts of cash with serial numbers, at least gold coins don't have them.

I don't know any hospital that would question where I got my money when I'm paying their bill unless I give them reason to be suspicious.

Originally Posted by brightman

Its not like she has to cash it in a bank... There are always people out there looking to buy gold who wouldn't find the need to question where she got it. Makes a ton more sense than getting Vagan currency.

Who says anything about Vagan currency? The Vagans have been living in the Earth sphere for quite a long time now, surely they would be using currency that is acceptable on Earth and its colonies.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by monster

Except that doesn't appear to be the case in AGE's Earth sphere.

Except we weren't shown enough of civilian life for you to make that claim at all, so your statement here is pure speculation.

However we know that Vagan had declared full scale war on Earth now and if full scale invasion was to happen I say bank run is highly likely than not because real life history tells us so. In fact bank run is happening right now in the Eurozone on something as "tiny" and localized as news of Spain's going into recession. What do you think an all out war on the entire Earth is going to do to the general public? Public panic that would caused the meltdown of the banking system would be guaranteed without a doubt.

EDIT: Refer to the concept of Hyperinflation which is usually associated with war time
EDIT2: this is what happens when hyperinflation kicks in in RL, everyone trades in gold, not paper money

Still, it doesn't change the fact that she still has to do the work of selling them.

You are still ignoring the fact that if she received payments in forms of either cash or credits she has more risks involved due to tracibility of the transactions, serial numbers on the paper notes etc, in which case *in comparison* selling unmarked gold coins poses less risk even for the more amount of work it involved. Plus you are also completely ignoring the depreciation of paper money, the risk of bank run, savings withdrawl freeze etc. Physical gold coins have no such issues because as brightman mentioned you can *always* find people willing to trade you stuff for solid gold (what can I say, history has shown that humans are attracted to this shiny stuff, as shown in that youtube video). And once the war is over no matter who "won" (ignoring that she might never live long enough to get there for the time being) the value of the gold still stands, good luck trying to cash in on the "loser's" currency though which would be no more worth than toilet paper.

You have to switch off your "common sense" economics which is based on peace time when everything "works", however when an all out invasion is happening around you your common sense approach to paper money and credit is completely turned on its head. Gold is the more rational, if not the only choice here.

Heck, in the original MSG Char gave Sayla a suitcase of gold bars to try to get her to leave the Whitebase and live a normal life, Char knows his war time economics.

[monster]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Except we weren't shown enough of civilian life for you to make that claim at all, so your statement here is pure speculation.

On the contrary, you've just proven my point. In the absence of any showing of a failing banking system, you can't assume or speculate that their banking system has indeed collapsed. In fact, all accounts appear to show that life in the Earth sphere has not changed at all outside of the few random Vagan attacks and the development of mobile suits as weapon.

However we know that Vagan had declared full scale war on Earth now and if full scale invasion was to happen I say bank run is highly likely than not because real life history tells us so. In fact bank run is happening right now in the Eurozone on something as "tiny" and localized as news of Spain's going into recession. What do you think an all out war on the entire Earth is going to do to the general public? Public panic that would caused the meltdown of the banking system would be guaranteed without a doubt.

EDIT: Refer to the concept of Hyperinflation which is usually associated with war time
EDIT2: this is what happens when hyperinflation kicks in in RL, everyone trades in gold, not paper money

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt when they've actually shown that the public has panicked outside of actual Vagan attacks.

You are still ignoring the fact that if she received payments in forms of either cash or credits she has more risks involved due to tracibility of the transactions, serial numbers on the paper notes etc, in which case *in comparison* selling unmarked gold coins poses less risk even for the more amount of work it involved.

Except, as shown, they didn't even suspect her to be a traitor until it was already too late. Why would they bother putting a trace on someone they've no reason to mistrust?

Plus you are also completely ignoring the depreciation of paper money,

That has not been established to be the case, and there are other forms of currency.

the risk of bank run, savings withdrawl freeze etc.

Again, no reason to think that to be the case, and now you're just overanalyzing it.

Physical gold coins have no such issues because as brightman mentioned you can *always* find people willing to trade you stuff for solid gold (what can I say, history has shown that humans are attracted to this shiny stuff, as shown in that youtube video).

Then the Vagans should've done that in the first place.

And once the war is over no matter who "won" (ignoring that she might never live long enough to get there for the time being) the value of the gold still stands, good luck trying to cash in on the "loser's" currency though which would be no more worth than toilet paper.

If the Vagans won, according to some posters here, there's no expectation for Shanalua to be spared. If the Federation won, their currency would not change. So there's no reason not to use Federation currency at this point.

You have to switch off your "common sense" economics which is based on peace time when everything "works", however when an all out invasion is happening around you your common sense approach to paper money and credit is completely turned on its head. Gold is the more rational, if not the only choice here.

Heck, in the original MSG Char gave Sayla a suitcase of gold bars to try to get her to leave the Whitebase and live a normal life, Char knows his war time economics.

It wasn't until the end of Asem's arc that they even had a full-scale battle near Earth. And it wasn't until Kio's arc that they've had a full attack on Earth.

So no, you can't really use the all-out invasion excuse when, by what we've seen so far, the Vagan's invasion of Earth is much tamer than in previous Gundam series.

[monster]

Sorry for the double post, but I'd rather separate this from my reply to houkoholic:

To the people who think it's better to pay Shanalua with gold coins:

After thinking of this some more, I think the issue is whether Shanalua can use those coins directly as payment to a hospital without arousing suspicion.

If the answer is yes, then that should be your only defense. No need to go on tangents like the value of gold in times of war.

If the answer is no, and she has to trade those coins for other form of currency somewhere else, then the issue of traceability is moot because she will end up with paper or electronic currency anyway when she pays the hospital. In that case, I stand by my point that the Vagans should've just acquired the paper/electronic currency and then give it to Shanalua.

Besides, traceability is a petty excuse when plenty of criminals probably store and use their money the same way without worrying about being traced.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by monster

Besides, traceability is a petty excuse when plenty of criminals probably store and use their money the same way without worrying about being traced.

Exactly whats stopping her form saying they happen to find the gold coins in a dead relatives attic you can go to any pawn broker and they'll take with out a problem...so I've heard...

(<.<) (>.>)

[Revolutionist]

You guys are looking at this from a law abiding citizen's point of view when you need to look at it from the criminal or in this case traitor's perspective.

Depositing large sums of money that you can't explain without confessing to a crime is playing with fire, and just asking to get caught. That's why criminals spend so much time and effort into money laundering, because dirty money makes 100x easier for the government to catch them.

African warlords use diamonds as currency, which the arms dealer or whoever they're paying can then easily convert into cash.

I remember in Afghanistan we seized more opium than actual cash most of the time. That was and is the terrorists' main currency.

I personally would have asked to be paid in diamonds not gold, but then I would never be dumb enough to betray my country like that.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by monster

If the Vagans won, according to some posters here, there's no expectation for Shanalua to be spared. If the Federation won, their currency would not change. So there's no reason not to use Federation currency at this point.

If the Vagans won Shanalua's sister is dead anyways since the Vagans are bent on exterminating the Earth Sphere to begin with.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

You guys are looking at this from a law abiding citizen's point of view when you need to look at it from the criminal or in this case traitor's perspective.

Depositing large sums of money that you can't explain without confessing to a crime is playing with fire, and just asking to get caught. That's why criminals spend so much time and effort into money laundering, because dirty money makes 100x easier for the government to catch them.

African warlords use diamonds as currency, which the arms dealer or whoever they're paying can then easily convert into cash.

I remember in Afghanistan we seized more opium than actual cash most of the time. That was and is the terrorists' main currency.

I personally would have asked to be paid in diamonds not gold, but then I would never be dumb enough to betray my country like that.

Indeed, money laundering is important. So? How does a single random traitor who, presumably, up to then had never had contacts in the criminal milieu launder a sackful of gold?

It's not like she wanted money to buy drugs or prostitutes, whom she could pay in cash or, heck, why not? in gold. She wanted treatment at a legit, aboveboard hospital.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Indeed, money laundering is important. So? How does a single random traitor who, presumably, up to then had never had contacts in the criminal milieu launder a sackful of gold?

It's not like she wanted money to buy drugs or prostitutes, whom she could pay in cash or, heck, why not? in gold. She wanted treatment at a legit, aboveboard hospital.

Easy, here's how. Go to a shady pawn shop, sell the coins for cash, use a disguise + fake ID if need be. Take that cash and then buy money orders using said disguise and fake ID. Then take that money order and cash it using another fake ID. Then take the cash and pay the hospital. I'm sure hospitals take cash, and if they don't she can always get a another money order.

That's a heck of a lot harder to prove than if the vagan handler takes the money from a shell company, deposits it on her account and she then swipes her debit card at the hospital.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Easy, here's how. Go to a shady pawn shop, sell the coins for cash, use a disguise + fake ID if need be. Take that cash and then buy money orders using said disguise and fake ID. Then take that money order and cash it using another fake ID. Then take the cash and pay the hospital. I'm sure hospitals take cash, and if they don't she can always get a another money order.

That's a heck of a lot harder to prove than if the vagan handler takes the money from a shell company, deposits it on her account and she then swipes her debit card at the hospital.

But harder than if the Vagan'd given her cash directly. That's my point: not that giving her cash would solve the problem, but that giving her gold just complicates it.

Either way, she still has that big, public expense without a way to explain the source of the money. Giving her gold just gives it more points of failure, but the biggest one remains the hospital.

[Nivek von Beldo]

hey do the MST3K mantra and remember that was mostly simbolism of Shanalua Selling her loyality away from the Gundam Messiah(Originaly Flit now Kio), in exchange of 30 coins of Gold.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

If the Vagans won Shanalua's sister is dead anyways since the Vagans are bent on exterminating the Earth Sphere to begin with.

when did they say that's their goal? or is that the conclusion you jumped to based on this poorly written show?

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

when did they say that's their goal? or is that the conclusion you jumped to based on this poorly written show?

Because the Earth is their's and theirs' alone to have. What part of that did you miss in Ezcelant's speech? Why would they share it with the pathetic earthlings as they so call them?

You should watch the series as they have shown the Vagans have focused their operations on destroying colonies and cities indiscrminately (which Grodeck pointed out, if the Federation was their enemy why didn't they just focus on military targets?) You also must've missed the part where they were leveling the cities and such and blasting civilians left and right.

But more to the point, since they are targeting the cities and firing on civilians indiscrimintately, there's no way her sister would be safe in a hospital since they wouldn't be able to evacuate her properly (a military hospital would be even worse).

That's why I said early it would've made more sense if they had her sister hostage because I sure as hell wouldn't trust the enemy to fund me money when they've had a history of destroying colonies and cities.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by monster

On the contrary, you've just proven my point. In the absence of any showing of a failing banking system, you can't assume or speculate that their banking system has indeed collapsed.

I didn't prove your point but rather you are just seeing what you what to see.
History has shown us that when war hits, the banking system most certainly collapses due to public panic and government buying up resources to supply the war effort thus high levels of inflation is absolute - this doesn't need to be shown in the show because it is the inevitable effect of war - war is about destroying resources, when resources becomes scares inflation occurs, there's no other way about it.

In fact, all accounts appear to show that life in the Earth sphere has not changed at all outside of the few random Vagan attacks and the development of mobile suits as weapon.

They've shown no such thing, it is you who are speculating that life is all rosy. However we know for certain that Vagans are destroying civilian targets left and right on Earth and that the Feds are having problems handling them (the mass-production suits sure aren't holding up), so public panic is guaranteed regardless of whether someone lives in a safe zone or not (people WILL prepare for the worst thus making the collapse a self-fulfilled prophecy, human group psychology is a bitch, just look at how in the Japanese earthquake last year that people in Tokyo, proven to be not affected by the disaster and radiation fallout, cleaned out the convenience stores), thus banking and "normal" everyday economics and trading is definitely down the toilet.

Why would they bother putting a trace on someone they've no reason to mistrust?

That's easy - banking systems are now automatically traced for nothing else but tax purpose alone (yes the government hates you for evading taxes which is just as big of a crime as being a traitor ), I have a friend who works at the tax office programming these algorithms and they know so much as if you buy a car more expensive than you can afford so they would flag you to check your income. If a soldier with known salary suddenly receives a large amount of cash deposit or irregular deposits in forms of credit they will know.

You know why the Swiss banks is always such a big deal? Because the Swiss bank are the only handful of banks that aren't traced like the other banks in the world.

That has not been established to be the case, and there are other forms of currency.

Again, currency offers no protection in war time unlike rare minerals. Inflation would easily wipe out your savings, just look at the youtube video and the hyperinflation link FFS. Doesn't the idea of 1 trillion dollar bills tell you something about having cash and credit in the bank? The Vagan could have given her a billion Federation sanctioned bucks but the next day that billion won't buy you a loaf of bread, and it happened in real life during war ALL THE TIME.

Again, no reason to think that to be the case, and now you're just overanalyzing it.

Except history has shown us there is EVERY reason to think so during wars?

Then the Vagans should've done that in the first place. If the Vagans won, according to some posters here, there's no expectation for Shanalua to be spared. If the Federation won, their currency would not change. So there's no reason not to use Federation currency at this point.

I've already said assuming she survives. Also if she has her assets in gold she don't have to worry about that risk at all. Gold is gold, all currency is traded to gold, it holds value regardless, which part of that don't you get?

So no, you can't really use the all-out invasion excuse when, by what we've seen so far, the Vagan's invasion of Earth is much tamer than in previous Gundam series.

Not sure if serious or not....
Again, when during peace times bank runs can happen just due to news of a country *maybe* going into recession, you are claiming that an all out declaration of WAR on public air wave followed by battleships morphing out of thin air and MS popping out from houses and committing mass murder and wiping out entire towns isn't going to cause public panic, okay......

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Easy, here's how. Go to a shady pawn shop, sell the coins for cash, use a disguise + fake ID if need be. Take that cash and then buy money orders using said disguise and fake ID. Then take that money order and cash it using another fake ID. Then take the cash and pay the hospital. I'm sure hospitals take cash, and if they don't she can always get a another money order.

No need for that even. Just looking at the youtube video I was proven wrong that people won't take unprocessed gold.

All you had to do is grin up the gold coins and trade them as gold dust (pure gold is very soft, so won't be a hard task at all), nobody would know because you won't even be able to check which bank/mint made it from the physical look of the coin. The worth of the gold is still there because it is measured in its weight vs purity only. During public panic time I'm sure that even a doctor would need to eat and you would find one who won't mind taking gold as direct payment because the doctor would have to be adapting to the same economic environment as everyone else.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Because the Earth is their's and theirs' alone to have. What part of that did you miss in Ezcelant's speech? Why would they share it with the pathetic earthlings as they so call them?

You should watch the series as they have shown the Vagans have focused their operations on destroying colonies and cities indiscrminately (which Grodeck pointed out, if the Federation was their enemy why didn't they just focus on military targets?) You also must've missed the part where they were leveling the cities and such and blasting civilians left and right.

But more to the point, since they are targeting the cities and firing on civilians indiscrimintately, there's no way her sister would be safe in a hospital since they wouldn't be able to evacuate her properly (a military hospital would be even worse).

That's why I said early it would've made more sense if they had her sister hostage because I sure as hell wouldn't trust the enemy to fund me money when they've had a history of destroying colonies and cities.

Stop trying to pass your opinion as fact. Just because a military indescriminately attacks a city, and subsequently civilians die doesn't necessarily mean they are after complete annihilation of their enemy. The US, Brittain, and their allies indiscriminately bombed German and Japanese cities to the ground, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians. Were they after the extermination of those nationalities?

The writers couldn't be arsed to come up with a reason for those attacks on the civilian colonies, but no military spends resources and time on an operation that has no strategic value whatsoever. Other than those instances, they have so far gone after strategic targets like Big Ring, Olivernotes (city next to a federation garrison) and that Jaburo rip-off. All I recall Ezelcant saying was: "my name is Ezelcant leader of Vagan and we're launching a full scale invasion of Earth", not "my name is Ezelcant leader of Vagan and we're going to exterminate you". Do you think a full scale invasion means extermination of a people? we launched full scale invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and we weren't there to exterminate them.

[Dark Wing]

I don't think the Vagans will kill every human on earth after all they're going to need slave labor am I right?

[monster]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

That's easy - banking systems are now automatically traced for nothing else but tax purpose alone (yes the government hates you for evading taxes which is just as big of a crime as being a traitor ), I have a friend who works at the tax office programming these algorithms and they know so much as if you buy a car more expensive than you can afford so they would flag you to check your income. If a soldier with known salary suddenly receives a large amount of cash deposit or irregular deposits in forms of credit they will know.

You know why the Swiss banks is always such a big deal? Because the Swiss bank are the only handful of banks that aren't traced like the other banks in the world.

Unless Shanalua will bring all that money in cash to the hospital, she'll eventually have to deposit it in her account.

Again, currency offers no protection in war time unlike rare minerals. Inflation would easily wipe out your savings, just look at the youtube video and the hyperinflation link FFS. Doesn't the idea of 1 trillion dollar bills tell you something about having cash and credit in the bank? The Vagan could have given her a billion Federation sanctioned bucks but the next day that billion won't buy you a loaf of bread, and it happened in real life during war ALL THE TIME.

Shanalua only has to pay the amount in her hospital bill.

I've already said assuming she survives. Also if she has her assets in gold she don't have to worry about that risk at all. Gold is gold, all currency is traded to gold, it holds value regardless, which part of that don't you get?

That has nothing to do with Shanalua's current concern with her sister's treatment, unless she expected to wait until the Vagans won.

Not sure if serious or not....

Very serious, but feel free to show me how the Vagans' attack can even be compared to what happened in some of the previous Gundam series.

Again, when during peace times bank runs can happen just due to news of a country *maybe* going into recession, you are claiming that an all out declaration of WAR on public air wave followed by battleships morphing out of thin air and MS popping out from houses and committing mass murder and wiping out entire towns isn't going to cause public panic, okay......

Don't look at me, AGE is the one who hasn't shown people panicking outside of an actual battle zone. In fact, AGE hasn't shown us much of anything, and you're just basing things on what history tells you has happened instead of what the show has actually shown so far.

Of course, I'm very open to the idea that I have missed something in the show. If so, please do point it out to me.