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Old 2014-05-11, 07:42   Link #1941
silvercover
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I can think of at least one way to have conflict.

Maju arise from negative human emotions. Now, can you imagine what maju may arise from a being on Homura's level having strongly negative emotions? And since these particular maju would arise directly from Homura herself, Homura may not be able to personally handle them as easily as she does the Incubators.

I think that privately feeling at odds with Madoka, and also being cut off from much in the way of human companionship, is going to eat away at Homura.
bolded part.

though even considering that, I doubt it will really change anything or make homura reconsider.

it'll just be a repeat of 1st season: homura being stubborn on solving the problem by herself on beating the superpowered enemy.

and even then, that's assuming homura cantjust get rid of it with her current powers.
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Old 2014-05-11, 08:22   Link #1942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercover View Post
bolded part.
Homura still seems to have the mind of a human. Or, at least, the emotions of a human.



Quote:
though even considering that, I doubt it will really change anything or make homura reconsider.

it'll just be a repeat of 1st season: homura being stubborn on solving the problem by herself on beating the superpowered enemy.
Or Homura could actually grow as a character. I would consider that a good thing.


Now this is just an idea I have. SoL might be the way it goes, though I honestly have a hard time imagining it now.
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Old 2014-05-11, 09:35   Link #1943
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she wont grow though, if there's no one there to push her to change...

if SoL worked, homura wouldnt have went this far...


also if that were the case, then homura should have already freed madoka after her answer near the film ending. she's succeeded at what she wanted really, and was more or less acceptance of madoka's opposing views, which is another point of why I dont think madoka's a good choice.

she really needs someone to go against her and knock some sense, which sayaka's the best candidate.


other methods like brand new characters is possible though, but that's just like saying there could be another "god" out there like madoka to confront homura, so im not touching that theory.
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Old 2014-05-11, 12:27   Link #1944
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Quote:
Maju arise from negative human emotions. Now, can you imagine what maju may arise from a being on Homura's level having strongly negative emotions? And since these particular maju would arise directly from Homura herself, Homura may not be able to personally handle them as easily as she does the Incubators.
I saw a fanfic the other night with an interesting possibility: Omnipotent beings get what they want. Homura's desires and emotions are contrasting like, hella.

Homura finds out that there's a bunch of other Homuras (Moemura, Badassmura, Ribbonmura, etc) all running around with a portion of her powers and she can't just reality-warp them away. Cue a bunch of events.

Not really appropriate for Homura's emotional narrative arc but hey, neat idea.

I've also seen an idea where Homura realizes that Madoka needs a release valve for her selflessness, and figures "Hey I've made being a Magical Girl perfectly safe" so she lets Madoka become a normal one ala timeline 1.

...Except whenever her Soul Gem darkens too much, it cleans out and a guardian entity resembling Kriemheld Gretchen manifests and cleans up a situation for her, ala Sayaka/Oktavia.

Then she learns from some other source somehow that the Law of Cycles is messed up and vows to try and find it's missing piece, not realizing it's herself. Cue parody of the "Moon Princess" plot from Sailor Moon.
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Old 2014-05-11, 17:24   Link #1945
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The reason no details about Homura's post-devilization world exist is because there aren't any. And the reason there aren't any is because Gen has no idea where the story should go from here. The original Madoka series was a unique synthesis of four creators working independently without trying to influence each other, but with an intense consciousness towards the other creators. Rebellion was a product of those creators mixing, driven and pushed back into each other by commercial and creative pressures, culminating in an open slate left for someone else to come and tie it all together again.

When Gen says he's done being the main writer for this series, I believe it. And that's because, from the beginning, Madoka Magica wasn't really his own work. As he described at one point, from the beginning Kaname Madoka was never an 'Urobochi' character, but rather an 'Aoki Ume' character. Gen had run into a wall in his own writing of being unable to believe in human happiness, of being unable to construct a (universally) happy ending within his own narratives/resulting from his own characters due to his view of human nature. Given the impetus of being faced with a collaboration with Aoki Ume (to the extent of the image of the production being influenced by her character designs), Gen wrote a story not based on his own character but his vision/conception of Aoki Ume's, and successfully constructed a narrative where the world was saved by a 'heavenly soul' acting at the cost of her personal happiness.

Iwakami, who originally conceived of the collaboration based on the cheap profit-seeking shock value of seeing Aoki Ume's character designs in bloody conflict, gave his production team creative freedom. Aoki Ume submitted herself to letting her character designs be used as the writer and director willed. Akiyuki Shinbo committed himself to adapting the script and character designs as he was given, imposing no 'directorial instructions' upon what was given to him by his team. What resulted was Madoka Magica, which succeeded by denying the cliched image which Iwakami had initially wanted to market it by.

Having written a story which was beyond himself, Gen thought it was all over. Naturally, when Iwakami and Shinbo approached him to construct a sequel driven by commercial interests (Iwakami) and a desire to do more with the characters (Shinbo), he initially resisted. Why? Because, the original story having come from outside of himself, Gen had no idea how to continue it. However, faced by the insistence of the other partners, Gen grudgingly began developing a scenario.

Upon reaching his creative limit, Gen confronted the other team members. "I don't know how to continue this." With that cue, Shinbo made the suggestion "Let Homura and Madoka become enemies", shocking Gen out of his artistic conscientiousness (originally based on the collaboration with Ume) that, like the original TV series, he had to write a happy ending.

The result: Gen was finally able to let loose and write an 'Urobochi' story. As described, Madoka Magica was the story of Madoka, an 'Aoki Ume' character. Rebellion then became the story of Homura, child of Urobochi Gen.

The uncertainty/indetermination of Rebellion's ending is the product of Gen's own uncertainty. Gen did not have an answer/was not satisfied with his internal 'Protagonist chooses their personal happiness/desires/delusion over the good of the total world' conclusions in the first place. Neither did he want to deny the original conclusion he wrote to the series, which he accomplished by stepping outside of himself. Having been asked and given permission to contradict it, Gen did so, but from the beginning Gen never had an idea of how to bring the story to a new conclusion (i.e. choose a victor or develop a compromise between Madoka and Homura). Precisely because of this, he has stepped away from writing the series. The narrative has been left open for a new author with a radical new vision to step in and wrap it up.

I don't think there's anything wrong with this.
I) The value of the original series for me was always in how Gen transcended/denied the nihilistic worldview/conclusion which Iwakami had hired him to write. I had believed he would do so from the start, not from any familiarity with his works, but out of distaste towards the sense of cheap degeneracy with which Iwakami had initially formed his vision for the project, and a conviction that any genuine artist would not simply go along with it. If considered objectively, I do not consider that Madoka's selfless 'happy' ending is thematically actually any more legitimate/compelling than Homura's.
II) The budget and format of Rebellion allowed Shinbo the greatest freedom and opportunity to go nuts with SHAFT's spectacular style to date (and possibly ever), and on that level the movie delivered beyond all expectations. Rebellion may have been an unnecessary addition to the story of Madoka as a matter of narrative, but it has firmly established for me SHAFT's full potential as a studio and has marked for me a landmark in animation.
III) Despite the difficulty/unresolvability of the thematic/philosophical conflict Gen/Rebellion's conclusion has left us with (Selfish desire/happiness vs. Universal order/good; which force/possibility is stronger within humans), a new author/series does not even have to address it. The greatest value on a character level which Rebellion contributes is to the series lore. The idea/concept of Madoka and Homura as opposite forces of universal law/Gods is freakin' awesome. Simply as a setting, the Madoka universe now feels like a tantalizing vehicle for potentially tremendous carthasis in a brand new story focused on different themes and characters.
I hadn't thought of it that way before. Very interesting. Although, we do know that while Urobuchi didn't want to end it with Homura going to heaven with Madoka, he was stumped on what ending he should write. It was Shinbo who suggested that Madoka and Homura become enemies, which Urobuchi immediately latched on to.
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Old 2014-05-11, 17:30   Link #1946
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I saw a fanfic the other night with an interesting possibility: Omnipotent beings get what they want. Homura's desires and emotions are contrasting like, hella.

Homura finds out that there's a bunch of other Homuras (Moemura, Badassmura, Ribbonmura, etc) all running around with a portion of her powers and she can't just reality-warp them away. Cue a bunch of events.

Not really appropriate for Homura's emotional narrative arc but hey, neat idea.

I've also seen an idea where Homura realizes that Madoka needs a release valve for her selflessness, and figures "Hey I've made being a Magical Girl perfectly safe" so she lets Madoka become a normal one ala timeline 1.

...Except whenever her Soul Gem darkens too much, it cleans out and a guardian entity resembling Kriemheld Gretchen manifests and cleans up a situation for her, ala Sayaka/Oktavia.

Then she learns from some other source somehow that the Law of Cycles is messed up and vows to try and find it's missing piece, not realizing it's herself. Cue parody of the "Moon Princess" plot from Sailor Moon.
where do you find these fanfics?
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Old 2014-05-11, 21:13   Link #1947
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Fanfiction.net mostly. The first one wasn't very good beyond that one idea, and the second one is still a rough draft on a cutting-room forum I go to (members only). I'll post links in the fanfic thread if anything comes of them.

Especially the second one.
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Old 2014-05-12, 04:58   Link #1948
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That actually sounds like a really interesting fic, I might look that up.
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Old 2014-05-12, 06:30   Link #1949
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Fanfiction.net mostly. The first one wasn't very good beyond that one idea, and the second one is still a rough draft on a cutting-room forum I go to (members only). I'll post links in the fanfic thread if anything comes of them.

Especially the second one.
ah the first one really sounds like it was inspired by a series of pics...
this one I think: http://danbooru.donmai.us/pools/8178
well as it came from FF.net, its really hard to find good stuff there yet its the most likely place to find fics.

ive heard of you guys already brainstorming the 2nd fanfic in either this thread or the fanfiction thread, will check that out once I find a link.

btw, this page does a good sum up of my top feelings on the movie:
http://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/1536802?pool_id=7616
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Old 2014-05-16, 10:38   Link #1950
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so in another forum, I was able to express my thoughts and analysis on the movie... as well as why sayaka's the best for homura.
il just post it here (and perhaps sayaka's thread, maybe):

Quote:
eh by love I meant more specifically on homura's feelings for madoka...
as the romance expert (which would be my title here if allowed), homura's move right there just helped reinforce more of my views and arguments.

funny thing was, homura was like my least liked character. I just somehow felt... not quite fine with her portrayal though I do admit she was awesome and her dedication was great... but I still didnt really feel taken in with her.
then I saw the movie, and my feelings made full 180 on her.

unlike most(or some at least) people, who's opinion of homura got lower and of course those who didnt like her anymore... I ended up loving her now.
while I was also saying things like "no no no" when homura grasped madoka, inside my mind I was going "yes yes yes".

I feel like the movie had revealed my true subconscious view on homura: someone who's love and focus got obsessive enough to be yandere level.

...which then leads me back to my choice of sayakaXhomura.

honestly, sayaka's the one who's best for homura.

I can commend and admire homura for her dedication and focus as a yandere, but if we're talking about who'd be great for her, its sayaka.

it also got reinforced to me in the final movie, where I only got these traces of their compatibility from the "madoka magica, the different story" manga.

sayaka's the best person who'd be able to set homura's mind right.

madoka? sure, in other circumstances, homura would listen to madoka... but only cause its madoka, and not cause madoka's right. there's also madoka's meekness, lets be honest here, homura would generally get the final say in the end if the two got together. homura may weight in madoka's opinions and thoughts, but honestly it'd just be cause it's madoka.
and even then, it'll be homura who makes the decisions, madoka at best will make her reconsider her thoughts and decisions, but in the end I bet it boils down if homura prefers to follow madoka's orders vs. her own judgement.
kyouko? a good partner id say, but pretty much partner only. I see that they'd be like kindred souls, with the way they're like in the "bad" side compared to their love interest, as well as having a more cynical view on life. but really, I dont see it going past best friends, cause kyouko and homura would just respect the other that they end up not getting themselves involved with the other's problems ala "I dont want to get in her way/trouble her/she can handle it." at the best, they'd help the other in the shadows/behind the scenes, but rarely will the two be upfront on being curious of the other.
mami? this one may have worked in the past but eh, hardly possible now. while sure mami's probably higher than sayaka in homura's list, homura really doesnt see mami much as anything. at least sayaka's "significant" to homura as an annoyance, mami's pretty close to "that other magical girl who's troublesome" in homura's books. then on mami's side, while she's gonna be more concerned than kyouko, again she'll probably just let homura do whatever she wants or at least not fight strongly for her(like how she ended up letting kyouko win in the different story manga, after kyouko lost her family, even though kyouko's a hell lot weaker). mami's gonna be "ah I wish she'd listen to me, but I guess things just dont go my way...".

then finally for sayaka.
sure we see in the anime throughout the course, that sayaka's probably homura's least liked girl, perhaps most hated even (after kyuubey of course), so it seems pretty much impossible, right?
welllllll......... that's until we really analyze homura's interest, in that person being madoka. and sayaka's a good and loyal friend in the end, if they can manage to get her recover from kyousuke or have her face those problems slowly rather than all at once (the soul thing, familiars thing, her wish thing, kyousuke thing, etc.).
then we get to the different story manga, one where sayaka's not suspicious/hostile to homura. that's probably the root of where my "curiosity" turned to genuine interest. we can see how homura and sayaka can get along, when the two of them are left with madoka. and they CAN get along well, heck sayaka's pretty chummy to homura.
then as I observed there, sayaka pretty much tried to get homura to loosen up, doing friendly banter, as well as being slightly competitive to each other in protecting madoka.

I can see that, given the chance, sayaka's gonna be the one who's most likely to get homura to be a better, more "healthy" person. madoka could, and she'd either get it for the wrong reasons(homura listening only cause its madoka) or have it be for naught(homura would insist). mami and kyouko are likely gonna leave homura to her own devices, probably due to being veterans ala the "people are different/have their own unique ways".

so it falls to sayaka to turn homura into a decent person, she'd be pushy enough that homura cant just make her stop nor ignore her like the other girls. sayaka's also like the only one who could incite disturbance to homura, through sheer annoyance, while mami and kyouko would just be mild(for madoka, its a given that she's got her attention). sayaka and homura also have more in common than other girls, both have worked really hard for their love interest, both have went through shit for them. both have also experience with the real darkness of being a witch, parallels can be seen in the third movie for the two.
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Old 2014-05-17, 03:43   Link #1951
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I disagree that Homura would essentially ride roughshod over Madoka's views and opinions in any relationship they'd have - maybe I shouldn't, since that's basically what Homura does in this movie. But I feel like Madoka has a strong enough will and character that, if necessary, she could stand up for herself against Homura.

She'd do it in a very kind, sweet way, because she's Madoka, but the lass has a spine of iron. She beats Kyubey at his own game, after all.
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Old 2014-05-17, 12:02   Link #1952
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I disagree that Homura would essentially ride roughshod over Madoka's views and opinions in any relationship they'd have - maybe I shouldn't, since that's basically what Homura does in this movie. But I feel like Madoka has a strong enough will and character that, if necessary, she could stand up for herself against Homura.

She'd do it in a very kind, sweet way, because she's Madoka, but the lass has a spine of iron. She beats Kyubey at his own game, after all.
well like I said, she'd still weigh in madoka's thoughts, just cause its madoka's and not cause she's really listening.

we can already see actually how homura doesnt really follow or heed madoka's guidance. when she should be getting along and trying to honor madoka's wishes in past worlds, homura in the end just keeps on making madoka safe, when its not really what madoka would like.
case in point the whole movie proved me right...

that's one of the grips I have for her, in that she's really just into madoka cause madoka was her first friend, rather than being moved by madoka's whole character. and then she show puts it in positive light most of the time.
the movie pretty much got my praise more for that one, really showing the destructive/unhealthy aspects of homura's feelings that the anime missed/failed to convey.


a better way to see it is like this: does homura help the girls out due to her finding them good? or is it cause madoka wanted to keep them?


but anyways, back on track with madoka...

sure she got a backbone, just like other characters could if pushed, but as I said homura's gonna gets the last stance on the subject.
madoka may push strongly and determined, but in the end I see homura gets the say for whether to go with madoka's preferences over her own judgement (which is keeping madoka safe), that madoka only wins if homura decides the danger is minimal enough.

I dont really doubt that madoka could be strong and make strong decisions, I just see that homura would eclipse it in the end.
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Old 2014-05-18, 10:55   Link #1953
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we can already see actually how homura doesnt really follow or heed madoka's guidance. when she should be getting along and trying to honor madoka's wishes in past worlds, homura in the end just keeps on making madoka safe, when its not really what madoka would like.
case in point the whole movie proved me right...
I don't remember which timeline it occurred in (certainly not the first), but Madoka made Homura promise that Homura would prevent Madoka and her friends from being made into magical girls who would suffer the fate of becoming witches. At the end, Madoka comes up with a solution of her own. She still becomes a magical girl, but she removes the fate of becoming a witch, thereby making the fate of becoming a magical girl more acceptable. Even as a godlike presence who can see everything that Homura has seen and more, Madoka is at peace with this decision.

This raises a philosophical problem for Homura, however. The Madoka she knew and loved ultimately did not want the fate of becoming a magical girl. Madoka may have found a self-sacrificing solution that made her feel better about becoming a magical girl-god, but is this what she truly wanted? Homura was well aware that Madoka was the type to sacrifice herself for the good of others. Was Madoka truly happy with that outcome? If she wasn't, then Homura - quite possibly the only individual in the universe who could change things for Madoka - would be doing her friend a terrible disservice.

Rebellion thus presents events that are open to interpretation. By "splitting" Madoka at the end, Homura was arguably attempting to allow Madoka to "have her cake and eat it too." That is, the "law of the cycle" remained in place (Madoka's solution to change fate) but Madoka also retained a physical presence in the world. Is this really what Madoka wanted? It's hard to say. "Madokami" seemed a bit disturbed by it, but it's not hard to believe that this outcome would be desirable to all of the Madokas whose transformations into witches were witnessed by Homura. It is under this interpretation that I take issue with your saying that Homura wasn't heeding Madoka's guidance, or honoring her wishes in previous timelines.

Granted, that interpretation raises some interesting questions in itself. By passing through multiple timelines, Homura came to know more than anyone, including Kyubey. Yet when Madoka became a godlike presence she was able to see what Homura had, and more. Should Homura have still behaved as if she knew better than Madoka even as Madoka was in a godlike state? If "Madokami" was able to see everything, did this outcome of splitting by Homura represent consent on Madoka's part - that is, an admission that she wanted Homura to split her?

All of that relies on the interpretation that Homura was continuing to try and save Madoka. The other series of interpretations views Homura as a changed character; someone who became more selfish, and possibly resentful. Homura's behavior during the final segments of Rebellion is unique and something that we didn't see during the series itself, nor in other parts of Rebellion. Yet the behavior does not make either interpretation (acting out of Madoka's interests vs. acting out of self-interest) seem more or less likely.
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Old 2014-05-18, 11:30   Link #1954
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Personally, I'm leaning towards one of the two following interpretations of Homura:

1. Out of a very sincere love and longing, Homura wanted Madoka back. And she wanted Madoka back in the world of the living, for two reasons - Honoring the mission she had spent so long fighting for, and also so that her and Madoka could enjoy a (relatively) normal happy life in the same school together. Given that this is what Homura wanted, she was prone to suggestion. In other words, she wanted to think that Madoka wasn't happy as Madokami, because this would give her the justification needed to do what she did in the final quarter of the movie. What Madoka said in the flower fields scene gave Homura precisely what she wanted, and enabled her to act on her desires.

However, I think the following chain of events then occurs...

a) Madokami briefly panics and protests at what Homura is doing. Homura feels instant guilt over that, causing her to act a bit like a villain.

b) After regaining her bearings, Homura wants to resolve this new-found guilt, and so poses the "Law or Desires" question to Madoka, desperately hoping that Madoka will pick "Desires". Homura has this profound look of sadness, and tears in her eyes, shortly after Madoka answers "Law". I think this is a Homura that feels deep moral regret over what she's done. However...

c) Homura feels it's too late to turn back now. She intends to make the best out of this situation, and she thinks that if Madoka ever regains her memories that her and Madoka will be enemies. Homura hates that idea, and so will stave off the return of Madokami as long as possible.


2. At some level, Homura is resentful of what happened in the final timeline. She is resentful that this girl that she went all-out trying to protect ended up becoming a magical girl anyway, and remains happy like that. Homura feels horribly used by Madoka, and then easily cast aside once Madoka achieves her wish. At some level, Homura may even feel that almost everything she has done for Madoka was sheer vanity.

Homura is heartbroken and angry, angry with Madoka. She is almost like a lover spurned. So her heart is very tumultuous - Torn between a lingering but strong love for this hero that completely captured Homura's dedicated love, and a resentment for how this same girl used her and threw her away (as Homura sees it).

How does Homura square this circle? How does she psychologically come to terms with both loving Madoka, and having deep resentment for her? She does so by, in her own mind, divorcing Madokami from Madoka. Homura wants to tear down Madokami, but also embrace Madoka. And so she does exactly that, while also doing her very best to split "the two".

The "Law and Desires" question is Homura seeing if her splitting "the two" was a success. Madoka's answer, along with Madokami briefly reasserting herself, makes it clear that the split has not been a complete success. And so Homura is forced to realize that the Madokami she resents and the Madoka she loves is one and the same. And by making herself Madokami's enemy she is also Madoka's enemy. And that is devastating to Homura. And now she merely hopes that Madoka enjoys a normal human life while Homura does her best to stave off future conflict with Madoka/Madokami.


Either way, Homura is a compelling tragic figure, in my view. Either way, it's not hard to feel sorry for her. But the exact nature of Homura's feelings for Madoka, and Homura's feelings about herself, can be a bit different given on which interpretation is the more correct one.
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Old 2014-05-19, 05:33   Link #1955
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Personally, I'm leaning towards one of the two following interpretations of Homura:

1. Out of a very sincere love and longing, Homura wanted Madoka back. And she wanted Madoka back in the world of the living, for two reasons - Honoring the mission she had spent so long fighting for, and also so that her and Madoka could enjoy a (relatively) normal happy life in the same school together. Given that this is what Homura wanted, she was prone to suggestion. In other words, she wanted to think that Madoka wasn't happy as Madokami, because this would give her the justification needed to do what she did in the final quarter of the movie. What Madoka said in the flower fields scene gave Homura precisely what she wanted, and enabled her to act on her desires.

However, I think the following chain of events then occurs...

a) Madokami briefly panics and protests at what Homura is doing. Homura feels instant guilt over that, causing her to act a bit like a villain.

b) After regaining her bearings, Homura wants to resolve this new-found guilt, and so poses the "Law or Desires" question to Madoka, desperately hoping that Madoka will pick "Desires". Homura has this profound look of sadness, and tears in her eyes, shortly after Madoka answers "Law". I think this is a Homura that feels deep moral regret over what she's done. However...

c) Homura feels it's too late to turn back now. She intends to make the best out of this situation, and she thinks that if Madoka ever regains her memories that her and Madoka will be enemies. Homura hates that idea, and so will stave off the return of Madokami as long as possible.


2. At some level, Homura is resentful of what happened in the final timeline. She is resentful that this girl that she went all-out trying to protect ended up becoming a magical girl anyway, and remains happy like that. Homura feels horribly used by Madoka, and then easily cast aside once Madoka achieves her wish. At some level, Homura may even feel that almost everything she has done for Madoka was sheer vanity.

Homura is heartbroken and angry, angry with Madoka. She is almost like a lover spurned. So her heart is very tumultuous - Torn between a lingering but strong love for this hero that completely captured Homura's dedicated love, and a resentment for how this same girl used her and threw her away (as Homura sees it).

How does Homura square this circle? How does she psychologically come to terms with both loving Madoka, and having deep resentment for her? She does so by, in her own mind, divorcing Madokami from Madoka. Homura wants to tear down Madokami, but also embrace Madoka. And so she does exactly that, while also doing her very best to split "the two".

The "Law and Desires" question is Homura seeing if her splitting "the two" was a success. Madoka's answer, along with Madokami briefly reasserting herself, makes it clear that the split has not been a complete success. And so Homura is forced to realize that the Madokami she resents and the Madoka she loves is one and the same. And by making herself Madokami's enemy she is also Madoka's enemy. And that is devastating to Homura. And now she merely hopes that Madoka enjoys a normal human life while Homura does her best to stave off future conflict with Madoka/Madokami.


Either way, Homura is a compelling tragic figure, in my view. Either way, it's not hard to feel sorry for her. But the exact nature of Homura's feelings for Madoka, and Homura's feelings about herself, can be a bit different given on which interpretation is the more correct one.
To be honest, I think it's a little bit of Column B and a lot of Column A.
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Old 2014-05-19, 09:02   Link #1956
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yes, homura's a tragic figure, just like the standard yandere. not really compelling for me though, at least until after the movie.

imma disagree with most of you guys and say that this was more of the unraveling of homura's true character, where her rather conflicted and confusing character/motives come all together to give it a complete view.

that's also why I dont really feel bad for her, rather the one I feel bad would be the target of her love as madoka's only got a slight idea of it compared to several other protags who have realized the nature of their admirer(the ones that live anyway, those who didnt realize that the girl was yandere, well...)
saying that, I also dont feel annoyed of homura like before anymore. as you can see from my huge quote above...

almost close to fave, she certainly rose up in my list in madoka magica:
old - sayaka > mami > kyouko > madoka > homura
now - sayaka > homura > mami > kyouko > madoka
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Old 2014-05-20, 12:08   Link #1957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercover View Post
yes, homura's a tragic figure, just like the standard yandere. not really compelling for me though, at least until after the movie.
Well, one thing that I think makes Homura a tragic figure is that she never had much of a chance. Whether you view Homura's feelings for Madoka as romantic or purely platonic (I tend to think they're at least somewhat romantic), they're nonetheless very strong, and Homura never had much of a chance for a simple normal friendship/relationship with Madoka.

And now, just as she gains a huge upper-hand for herself, just as she grabs "the brass ring" as it were, she now feels fundamentally at odds with Madoka, to the point where it's hard for me to imagine her and Madoka being friends, even as Madoka can now attend school without having to worry about the Puella Magi world.


Quote:
imma disagree with most of you guys and say that this was more of the unraveling of homura's true character, where her rather conflicted and confusing character/motives come all together to give it a complete view.
"Homucifer" may well reflect Homura at her truest and most sincere state. So I don't think this Homura is a fraud, in any way. I think this is the real Homura, albeit arriving at this place due to having gone through a lot of nasty and grueling situations.

That being said, I think this is also a somewhat broken Homura, who probably needs real help, psychologically-speaking.


Quote:
that's also why I dont really feel bad for her, rather the one I feel bad would be the target of her love as madoka's only got a slight idea of it compared to several other protags who have realized the nature of their admirer(the ones that live anyway, those who didnt realize that the girl was yandere, well...)
Madoka is somewhat pitiable in that she's now being forced to live a lie. It's not even just a pure reset to, say, Episode 1 of the TV series. Madoka has even had her personal history significantly changed (transfer student from America).

Given Homura's willingness to make such a drastic and unnecessary change to Madoka's personal history, one can only wonder what other changes Homura might later make if she feels they're in Madoka's best interests.

Madoka is now completely under the thumb of Homura. Madoka's life is no longer Madoka's own. Madoka now has a "Big Sister" that is even more controlling and fundamentally altering than what Orwell conceived of in 1984. Even if Homura's actions are far more caring/loving than those of "Big Brother", it is still a troubling state that Madoka now lies in, imo.
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Old 2014-05-21, 08:44   Link #1958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercover View Post
yes, homura's a tragic figure, just like the standard yandere. not really compelling for me though, at least until after the movie.

imma disagree with most of you guys and say that this was more of the unraveling of homura's true character, where her rather conflicted and confusing character/motives come all together to give it a complete view.

that's also why I dont really feel bad for her, rather the one I feel bad would be the target of her love as madoka's only got a slight idea of it compared to several other protags who have realized the nature of their admirer
I also disagree that it's an unraveling of her "true character." It seems more a matter of environmental factors. Case in point, at the start of Rebellion Homura is back to being her nerdy, unconfident self (think back to the "round cake" song, where Homura is the only one who stumbles uncertainly). It isn't until she begins to remember more of her experiences that her attitude changes and returns to where she was at the end of the main series.

Consider what Homura went through. In her effort to change fate she relived one month of battles and tragedy for an unspecified number of cycles, but the amount might have added up to years. We viewers can only imagine what such a scenario must be like, but it's not a stretch to say that such an experience would change a person. For simply having that experience I interpret Homura as being godlike, herself. How could she possibly be close friends with Madoka (or any normal person) after having experienced something like that, though?
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Old 2014-05-21, 08:57   Link #1959
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^^ Just so you know, there was an interview with Madoka Magica's anime writer (Gen Urobuchi) where he was asked "How many time-loops did Homura go through?" His answer, IIRC, was "I don't know. Probably about 100" or something like that ("100" was definitely in the answer).

So some Madoka Magica fans have just been rolling with "100 time-loops".

So 100 X a month and a bit... yeah, it's a long time. Several years. Homura's mental age would be somewhere in her 20s, with a full third or more of her entire life thus far dedicated to trying to save Madoka over and over and over again.
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Old 2014-05-21, 09:47   Link #1960
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I think 100 was not a whatever number figure, just non specfic enough to allow for more lopps to be used on gaiden materials , while still not high enough to make her disconnected an inhuman since butch's character still mature and grow even if they are on his 40s. if she was 1 thousand years old because fo the timeloops she could have the psyque of a 10 year old and fight like a skilled assassin.
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