Psycho-Pass 2 - Episode 6 Discussion / Poll

[SJCrew]

I think the only 'inconsistencies' in this season come from the people criticizing the show without a firm understanding of the world the first season built.

You do not simply 'get guns' to deal with those who do not respond to Dominators in this type of society.

No, the characters in the series can't see everything that you can see as a viewer.

Nobody knows what Sibyl is doing right now. But based on the information we have been given first season up until now, inferring a guess seems much more rational than assuming nothing is going on.

So far, I don't think the show has lost any of its intelligence. It's only come under fire from a new and simple-minded viewership that demands easy explanations and immediate solutions. I'm glad the people complaining about the show are not in charge of writing it. I'm finding the current series of events quite intriguing and we're getting some great discussion out of it so far.

[ronelm2000]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

I see there are still people complaining about the old man in episode 4 beating up people. What have we found out this episode about some of Kamui's people? The government official was not the real government official. We see body parts in the hideout. The old man could have had body parts replaced, or it could even have been someone else younger made to look like the old man.

I'd like to believe that the medicine actually CHANGES the entire personality of the person.

[Kanon]

@ Five_Overs: Let's just agree to disagree for now. The next episode might provide more food for thought.

I'd be interested in finding out more about how exactly the Sibyl system is supposed to work for its citizens though, as it would provide a lot of insight into what they can and cannot do. I should probably rewatch S1, but I don't have the time nor the motivation, and I think the series has always been vague on this point. A lot of people assumed back in S1 that Sibyl was an AI system, but I don't recall any characters outright confirming it. If people were really fine with an AI running everything, then there wouldn't be any need for enforcers and inspectors, or the public safety bureau itself. They could have easily been replaced by drones, there's a reason they're still around. It's to maintain the illusion humans and Sibyl are working together.

I'd say this episode itself provided evidence Sibyl isn't running on its own. It was Shion that solved the problem of the hackings of the drones (which are part of the Sibyl system), Sibyl apparently couldn't defend itself. So clearly, humans still have some influence.

You seem to be fine with that idea, but I sure as hell would never accept to be completely ruled by a computer. And I'd like to think we're a majority who believe humans should be governed by humans.

Originally Posted by Arya

Not that I intend to discuss specific narrative choices, even because I understand where you are coming from. It's just to give you a different angle from which see the whole Sybil system. It's an analogy that doesn't have to fit perfectly, but I think you can get the gist of what I mean.

You are saying that two times in a less than two year span of time would be enough to make the system changes or adapt.
Let's take the actual aviation system. Recently a major Asian airline suffered two close accidents that caused hundreds of casualties. Still that said airline is still operating not it did change anything major in the way it works. Why is that? That's because the aviation system under normal circumstances works pretty fine and nobody would ever think to come back traveling by ships

That's not an appropriate comparison IMO. Investigations are still on-going, we're still not sure what happened (which is a really big problem in itself). No flaws have been exposed, so there's nothing to fix yet.

What happened in Psycho-pass however, is that terrorists deliberately exploited the existing flaws of the system to carry out successful attacks. A better comparison would be 9/11. Not the scale of the attack (I have no clue just how many injured/deaths the riots in S1 caused), but how terrorists achieved their goals. Afterwards, a whole department was created, security was increased in every airports, etc...

Sibyl closed the case and hoped really hard something like that wouldn't happen again. That was it. Not only is it irresponsible, but given that Sibyl is supposedly a perfect system, unlike ours, that strikes me as a big issue. What did they tell the citizen to reassure them something like that would never happen again? Their trust in the system is essential for Sibyl!

[White Manju Bun]

"Don't whine. You're an Inspector, aren't you?" Saiga-sensei you are awesome.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I'd be interested in finding out more about how exactly the Sibyl system is supposed to work for its citizens though, as it would provide a lot of insight into what they can and cannot do. I should probably rewatch S1, but I don't have the time nor the motivation, and I think the series has always been vague on this point. A lot of people assumed back in S1 that Sibyl was an AI system, but I don't recall any characters outright confirming it. If people were really fine with an AI running everything, then there wouldn't be any need for enforcers and inspectors, or the public safety bureau itself. They could have easily been replaced by drones, there's a reason they're still around. It's to maintain the illusion humans and Sibyl are working together.

Let me put forward what I think the "official" version of Sibyl is. This is what I think your average Sibyl Japan citizen sees when they see Sibyl:

Sibyl is a comprehensive legal and mental health system. It is designed to ensure a society that's as harmonious, healthy, peaceful, and crime-free as possible. To accomplish that, the entire populace is subjected to AI-generated mental health readings in the forms of CC scores and Hue colors. This is to ensure that latent criminals are caught before they can harm people, and also to ensure that people in need of mental health assistance get it before they become a problem to either themselves or others. People who are "too far gone" are eliminated with a Dominator, while milder cases are stunned and imprisoned in the hopes (arguably faint) that they can be rehabilitated.

Humans are employed as Inspectors/Enforcers in order to carry out the judgements of Sibyl while putting a human face on a system that might otherwise seem overly cold and impersonal. People are willing to trust machines to measure them, but they'd rather have other human beings be the ones to act on those measurements.

Now, I don't think that Sibyl is fully 100% "Caesar". There is reason to believe that politicians exist in Sibyl Japan, and there's no reason for them to be there unless Sibyl is willing for them to exercise at least some actual governmental power while in office.

This is pretty much pure speculation, but I'm putting it out there since it makes sense to me - My guess is that Sibyl Japan has a Diet and has a Japanese Prime Minister. They do not create laws anymore, because Sibyl takes care of that. There are no actual laws anymore - There are policies and procedures that both private and public employees are expected to follow, and failure to follow them may lead to dismissal, but nobody is going to jail for any of that. Only a bad CC reading or a cloudy hue can land you in jail. I would think that one of the perceived perks of Sibyl is that it means government/society doesn't have to bother coming up with laws anymore. Criminality is determined by having a criminal mind, not by committing morally questionable acts. That being said, Sibyl Japan society no doubt expects any cold-blooded murderer or high-level thief to automatically generate a high CC reading and/or a cloudy hue. Sibyl wants people to think that because otherwise the whole thing starts falling apart - If cold-blooded murderers don't always generate high CC readings than that's a huge gaping hole in Sibyl's credibility. So Sibyl tries to keep that hole from being recognized.

Going back to the Diet and the Prime Minister of Japan - My speculation is that they still call the shots on the following matters: Tax rates, government spending decisions, infrastructure development. Sibyl has power over them in that they, like all other Sibyl Japanese citizens, have to maintain good CC readings and clear hues. So there's another possible perk to Sibyl - the more corrupt politicians going down due to bad CC readings and/or cloudy hues. Sibyl Japan may have the cleanest politicians in the world!

However, the Diet may have power over Sibyl in one key area - funding. Sibyl may be stuck with limited financial resources for operating itself, and that's that. I'm fond of this theory because it could help to explain why their defenses are so terrible. Maybe they're so terrible because they're underfunded by the Diet.

So no, Sibyl is not running on its own. It's a huge, powerful piece of the overall government of Sibyl Japan, but it's probably not the only piece.

[Five_Overs]

^

Couldn't have put it better myself. It's more or less how I think the Sibyl system works as well.

Something to add though, is that Sibyl have another additional function. It determines the jobs most suitable for a person according to his/her aptitude. Such evaluation is most likely based on a person's psycho pass, test scores and several other data gathered by sibyl. Those who go with the recommended jobs are ensured a happy and carefree life devoid of troubles. Much of the people's decisions in life are literally taken over by Sibyl. Such a mundane world they live in.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Kanon

That's not an appropriate comparison IMO. Investigations are still on-going, we're still not sure what happened (which is a really big problem in itself). No flaws have been exposed, so there's nothing to fix yet.

What happened in Psycho-pass however, is that terrorists deliberately exploited the existing flaws of the system to carry out successful attacks. A better comparison would be 9/11. Not the scale of the attack (I have no clue just how many injured/deaths the riots in S1 caused), but how terrorists achieved their goals. Afterwards, a whole department was created, security was increased in every airports, etc...

Sibyl closed the case and hoped really hard something like that wouldn't happen again. That was it. Not only is it irresponsible, but given that Sibyl is supposedly a perfect system, unlike ours, that strikes me as a big issue. What did they tell the citizen to reassure them something like that would never happen again? Their trust in the system is essential for Sibyl!

Yeah, the comparison may look inappropriate, but not so much I think. Let's take your example about 9/11. Obviously the US government took all the indispensable countermeasures. Basically what did they? As you said they increased their security systems.
Let's go back to Sybil. Sybil on paper it is already the best security system you could ask for. What the government could do to increase it? Or also, which system you could swap Sybil with? You could only go downward (and here my comparison about airplanes and ships, taking down Sybil would be like taking down the aviation system to go back to the naval system, who would agree with it?). Despite what or why some accident happen (apparently) Sybil is still the best system for the citizens (as much as aviation is the more safe transport system for what I know).

The point I was trying to make is that the Sybil citizens are already dependent on Sybil to such an extent that I can't see them revolting against it. It doesn't matter what, who or how Sybil works. They believe in it. Somehow how we keep believing on our politicians. Each time they tell us about their great plans, but in the end they are just a new or old well integrated gear of their system (not our, at least in my country) and we just hope that this time will be the good one. With the difference that Sybil system works, statistically. And it's efficiency works on two different layers, one that grants people safety and the other that works on fear, as a constant reminder that if they don't follow the rules Sybil will caught them.

They are so dependent that when something unexpected happen they can't do anything but stay still. Even the enforcer did go back to the Dominator. Other options are not taken in account because of it. It would mean going against Sybil rules, and since Sybil is quite efficient normally they are left out of options. Also because they are not used to think. We have to remember how Sybil society also choose for its citizens what work they will do. Basically they live in a society that choose for them and not the other way around. So is not so odd that normal people rely so much on the system. They rely on the enforcer that rely on inspectors that rely on Dominators that ultimately rely directly on Sybil. That's the chain.

That's why Akane is so relevant in this universe (and also Kougami probably), because since she is not affected by the constant burden of its CC she can think freely. And, wild guess, maybe it's also Tougane ultimate goal ( if he is related to Sybil) to subjugate Akane to the system by clouding her hue. Making her depend on it (as if she would).

That said, speaking of Sybil itself, I don't know what it really did or did not after S1. Until the show won't address it I can't really say much.

On a side note, since we know that behind Sybil there are a bunch of thinking brains, I had this odd thought that surely it would be quite boring having a perfect working system, so Kamui or Makishima cases are like a breath of fresh air for them, so they are trying to let them last as much as they could.

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by SJCrew

I think the only 'inconsistencies' in this season come from the people criticizing the show without a firm understanding of the world the first season built.

You do not simply 'get guns' to deal with those who do not respond to Dominators in this type of society.

No, the characters in the series can't see everything that you can see as a viewer.

Nobody knows what Sibyl is doing right now. But based on the information we have been given first season up until now, inferring a guess seems much more rational than assuming nothing is going on.

So far, I don't think the show has lost any of its intelligence. It's only come under fire from a new and simple-minded viewership that demands easy explanations and immediate solutions. I'm glad the people complaining about the show are not in charge of writing it. I'm finding the current series of events quite intriguing and we're getting some great discussion out of it so far.

I get Psycho Pass just fine. I'm just pissed off with the stupid shit happening, which is making it harder to suspend disbelief with other things. For example, I am now supposed to believe that a young, healthy, combat-trained inspector got her ass kicked 3 times over by an obese, crippled old man with a respirator. Because plot needed to happen somehow.

Then there's Mika. Every time she gets a scene it's like she's carrying a sign that says "I will somehow fuck everything up for everyone forever". Ginoza junior in season 1 was a stickler for the rules, obsessed with doing things by the book, blindly obeying the system, arrogant to everyone, his head fully inserted up his ass. Mika is like season 1 Ginoza gone full retard. The anticipation that Mika will pull off some utterly contrived crap and send me reeling out the window has me grinding me teeth every time she's appears. You can tell me that Urobuchi isn't writing this, but this feeling can only be Urobuchi...