[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Moogleking]

I think Maria stays with the cousins the whole time, though. I don't really like the idea that there is an extra letter that is never mentioned that happens to have the key. Also, since Beatrice told Maria not to open it, then there's no way she would have to get any instructions.

Either way, Rosa is still suspicious for saying she met Beatrice and not revealing her own letter.

Also, I've been replaying game 3 (I'm taking super-detailed notes and have finished 1 and 2 already) and I have to point this out as people were talking about Genji's eyesight and I find it hilarious. In game 3, the servants all go to Kinzo's room for the 1st twilight where they meet Beatrice. Genji discerns Ronove before anyone else can see him and greets him. Then the narrator says "However, the darkness answered immediately and praised Genji's eyesight.."

Haha. It is fantasy, but still it is funny.

[Renall]

Also, I wouldn't trust bloodstains at all. ep5 demonstrates that there is some material which resembles blood but clearly cannot be. The blood in Krauss's room is pretty much acknowledged by everyone who sees it as improbable to actually be his.

So there's really nothing to suggest that Kumasawa and Nanjo were dead at all at the point in ep2 where it's suggested they are. So long as someone has access to the fake blood (or red paint, or tomato sauce, or whatever it is), a scene can be made as bloody as people want. But if there's no body, you can't believe there was a death.

[Dr. Akagi]

Originally Posted by TeeHee

Are there any other theories out there regarding the chapel that work? So far, we have:

1) "Unlocked Chapel" Theory. (Incompatible with unlocking scene.)
2) "Additional Envelope" Theory. (Compatible with unlocking scene.)

(Forget the small bombs.)

Is that it? Do we have any other ideas? Maybe something off-the-wall-but-it-could-work?

I myself believe the chapel door was truly locked in the morning. The only way around this is basically:

1) LyricalAura: the unlocking was a fantasy scene, which would be a rather dirty trick, since there was no magical elements in that scene whatsoever i.e. nothing would give the reader a hint the scene could be intentionally misleading; my stance on verifiable vs. unverifiable scenes doesn't require Battler as the first person narrator (at least in ep 1-4) to verify a scene, as long as there are no witches/magic and more than 1 person is present at the scene in question I'd say the scene is what really happened;

2) both Genji and Rosa are lying - possible, but I don't buy it, since I believe both of them to be innocent in Ep2 (Rosa specifically).

Besides "the door was simply unlocked in the morning" defeats the whole purpose of the locked room and greatly lessens the mystery impact of the scene, which I just do not want.

Thus the "Additional envelope" theory is more appealing to me right now, though it would still be a rather lame solution on the part of R07.

As for off-the-wall theories, I've got one but it greatly depends on the interpretaion of the following Beato's red:

When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit!!

If we assume that by "any and all methods of entry or exit" Beato was referencing "any and all methods of entry or exit through that same front door", the following blue truth may be constructed:

The presence of the gold ingots in the chapel clearly indicates the culprit (who assumed the role of Beatrice during the meeting with the victims) had already discovered the gold of the epitaph (and, by extension, the route to the gold's hiding place, let's say it's Kuwadorian). The chapel is the starting point of the route. The route may be enetred halfway between the chapel (starting point) and the Kuwadorian (ending point), for example through the well shown in ep4. In this case, the culprit may enter or leave the chapel at any time without having to use the front door at all.

[Moogleking]

Of course, there is also:
3) Rosa retrieved the key sometime in the morning before everyone woke up, locked the door, and returned it to its place, only to retrieve it later.

I don't believe the culprit has found the gold, and I don't think the gold is inside the chapel since you're basically saying there is a secret passage. We know there aren't any secret passages. I would actually say that 1 of those bars is Krauss' bar (or maybe none at all) and the rest aren't actually from Kinzo's stash. Instead, they are bars brought in by the culprit in order to convince Rosa into taking action.

Beatrice always has 2 goals.
1) Get the family to solve the riddle.
2) Get Battler to realize his sins.

Goal 1 makes the most sense when the culprit does not know where the gold actually is, but wants it.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Moogleking

We know there aren't any secret passages.

Wrong. Umineko defines a "secret passage" as a "passage the detective cannot find". That Knox rule doesn't ban, say, doors looking like things other than doors.

That isn't a very interesting solution to the chapel closed room, mind, so I'm not exactly supporting it... but do note that the passage that leads to the gold is necessarily a hidden passage, whether it's in the chapel or not.

[Raneh]

I don't really like the 'Additional Envelope' theory because of
Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
As far as I can remember there weren't any hints that the envelope would be different or that Maria met Beatrice again after that. Wasn't she was with the cousins pretty much all the time after that. This theory has too much speculation based on nothing to my taste.
I think that the unlocked chapel is more likely to be a good answer.

[Dr. Akagi]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

That isn't a very interesting solution to the chapel closed room...

I’m afraid we won’t get an interesting solution to the chapel closed room come the reveal anyway, and by interesting I mean the the-mystery-of-the-yellow-room-interesting or the the-three-coffins-interesting.

A truly ingenious locked room puzzle requires the presence of the spectators at the scene immediately outside the room at the same time something interesting happens in the room. In our case, we have a huge amount of time which is unaccounted for by the narrative, so I doubt if our “locked room” meets the definition of one in the first place.

Originally Posted by Raneh

I think that the unlocked chapel is more likely to be a good answer.

Yep, the first part of it strikes me as really good and the best we have for now. I just wish something can be done to make the room locked in time for the morning inspection.

[rogerpepitone]

Moogleking: Your answer can be simplified slightly with "Rosa already had the key when she pretended to fish it out of Maria's handbag."

As for my "Genji's vision problem" hypothesis, there's a slight snag. When characters are waiting outside the chapel, somebody mentions that Krauss didn't answer his door, and Shannon says that Natsuhi didn't answer hers. (Or maybe Kumasawa decorated Natsuhi's door sometime after when Shannon knocked in Episode 2 and before when Genji knocked in Episode 1.)

And to Dr. Akagi and maximilianjenus: It's good to hear that somebody else has read the classics.

[Raneh]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Moogleking: Your answer can be simplified slightly with "Rosa already had the key when she pretended to fish it out of Maria's handbag."

This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel
Not that it really matters in the end. But at least the key was in Maria's possession until that time.

[rogerpepitone]

12:01 AM is still "this morning".

[TeeHee]

Originally Posted by Raneh

I don't really like the 'Additional Envelope' theory because of
Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.
As far as I can remember there weren't any hints that the envelope would be different or that Maria met Beatrice again after that. Wasn't she was with the cousins pretty much all the time after that. This theory has too much speculation based on nothing to my taste.
I think that the unlocked chapel is more likely to be a good answer.

Except there was the one scene shown right before the "we accept you are a witch" scene where Beatrice is standing in the rose garden, and she basically says, "Now all of the pieces are in place." Which could mean they weren't in place until just now. It could infer that she just met up with Maria a moment ago.

The other reason I can say that proper clues have been presented is that with a large number of constraints, there are very few routes for success. My extra envelope theory is one of the few that can work, and so is the unlocked door theory.

[Dr. Akagi]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

And to Dr. Akagi and maximilianjenus: It's good to hear that somebody else has read the classics.

<GOOD>. Welcome to the club! Us great detectives should stick together.

[Isekaijin]

Though it has little to nothing to do with the mystery, can I ask something?

In the last battle between Battler and Beato in EP 4 after Ange-Beatrice's death, he clearly loathed her, and was even ready to humilliate his own intelligence with the small bombs theory only to get rid of her. I feel it's my duty to ask.

Why the change of heart? He only promised to kill Beato in the end of the tea party... And from what I've read in the VN he pretty much love her now.

It's Beato trolling him again isn't it?? Isn't it??

[Dr. Akagi]

Originally Posted by Isekaijin

It's Beato trolling him again isn't it?? Isn't it??

No, it’s Ryukishi07 trolling us readers. You see, the man had 4 more answer arks to develop, and now he can waste several of them on Battler being useless and emo over his luv to that Beato bwitch.

On the bright side, we got ourselves two whole arks of Furudo godgoodness, but good things just won’t last, I guess.

[imaginari]

Originally Posted by Dr. Akagi

A truly ingenious locked room puzzle requires the presence of the spectators at the scene immediately outside the room at the same time something interesting happens in the room. In our case, we have a huge amount of time which is unaccounted for by the narrative, so I doubt if our “locked room” meets the definition of one in the first place.

A few people have said that a never-locked chapel would be a cheap or uninteresting solution. I never understood this. I remember how awesomely trolled I felt when I thought of it and how clever it was if it was true. It reminds me of how stage magicians work - the trick can be as easy as possible as long as the audience is kept looking for something else.

[Xapheron]

IMO, Rosa probably didn't start the murders. She probably jumped on the bandwagon and decided to use it to take everything now that nobody was in the way. She probably figured out Kinzo was dead halfway through and cornered the servants into writing a will to benefit her. She doesn't know who the culprit is though so she closes herself in with the people least likely to be the ones - Battler, George, Nanjo (not really). Then she finds a way to send Nanjo out under the pretense of asking him to keep an eye on the servants as Nanjo can't be trusted either as he hid Kinzo's death. Anyway, Nanjo almost always lives to the end, the purpose of that is probably to hide the culprit's death in the early twilights.

[Dr. Akagi]

Originally Posted by imaginari

A few people have said that a never-locked chapel would be a cheap or uninteresting solution. I never understood this. I remember how awesomely trolled I felt when I thought of it and how clever it was if it was true.

I’m honestly glad you did, but for me it still would be somewhat underwhelming.

The problem is, Ryukishi07 has clearly done his homework with this one and you can’t help thinking Umineko is positioning itself like some kind of a freaking mystery masterpiece, what with the subtle, and not so subtle, references to the works of Christie, Carr, Knox and their Japanese colleagues.

And if you are playing within (or even with) the confines of the “locked room” subgenre of mystery fiction, you have to abide by certain rules, the crucial one being the "locked room" in question got to be …well, locked.

[imaginari]

Originally Posted by Xapheron

IMO, Rosa probably didn't start the murders. She probably jumped on the bandwagon and decided to use it to take everything now that nobody was in the way. She probably figured out Kinzo was dead halfway through and cornered the servants into writing a will to benefit her. She doesn't know who the culprit is though so she closes herself in with the people least likely to be the ones - Battler, George, Nanjo (not really). Then she finds a way to send Nanjo out under the pretense of asking him to keep an eye on the servants as Nanjo can't be trusted either as he hid Kinzo's death. Anyway, Nanjo almost always lives to the end, the purpose of that is probably to hide the culprit's death in the early twilights.

I don't think that Rosa is either the killer in EP2 or acting on her own. I doubt that anyone on the island has the chutzpah to take advantage of a serial murder that they have no hand in, although of course we can never really know anyone in this story. I think that in that episode Rosa accepted some kind of deal with the killer. She did say that she'd become a demon for her daughter's sake. In the other episodes Rosa probably turned the culprit down or wasn't given the chance - I think that either way the killer assumes that leaving Rosa alive will ruin their plans somehow (because she always dies early), and didn't really expect things to turn out as well as they did in that episode.

[LyricalAura]

For the people who don't like the idea of Rosa unlocking the chapel door being a fantasy, here's another possibility. When George's group (supposedly) went to the chapel later, they had trouble getting the door open from the inside. It's possible that even if the door was unlocked, the key didn't turn easily due to the keyhole being extremely rusty. Rosa could have misinterpreted that resistance as the door having been locked.

[Moogleking]

I'm not sure why everyone is trying so hard to make Rosa completely innocent here. I mean, she is shown in the chapel with everyone else, and the rest of them are dead. She lies about Kinzo. She had to have placed the final letter at the end. She tries to find Beatrice at the end for some reason.

Everything pretty much points to Rosa being manipulated in this game.

I feel like Umineko is actually going to turn out very similar to Higurashi. The mastermind isn't really the person doing the killing most of the time. Instead, they are convincing, tricking, or making people go crazy enough to do the killing for them. All the while, they are trying to get people to find the gold.