Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There are their five motivations.

Things aren't that clear though. I mean, for example, they want revenge, but revenge for what? For what happened 7 years ago, apparently. But we don't know exactly what happened back then. And until they reveal this, we won't be able to really understand why they feel they need to liberate the cluster from NUNS either.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Things aren't that clear though.

Sure they're clear. There's nothing unclear about the five motivations I put forward.

I mean, for example, they want revenge, but revenge for what?

They've addressed what they want revenge for. It's primarily the WMD that was dropped on their world. Which may or may not have been used by NUNs, anyway.

I can somewhat sympathize with them feeling a lot of resentment over that. But it was something that was used during the last war, 7 years ago. There had been peace since that war ended. Quite frankly, maybe they should get over it.

And heck, that might even be the parallel and message that Kawamori is aiming for - That real world Japan benefits by distancing itself from WWII and the old horrors of the past. That old nationalistic resentments does not do Japan any favors. I really do think there's a good chance that Windermere is based on WWII era Japan.

The NUNs likely represent the United States/United Nations. The dismissive arrogance the NUNs show towards Ragna is probably meant to reflect the dismissive cultural arrogance that other nations sometimes see coming from the United States. So yes, NUNs aren't perfect, they're supposed to be flawed, to show that Windermere's grievances with them (just like Japan's grievances with America and the UN) aren't entirely baseless.

Even still, Windermere needs to let it go, and look beyond the flaws of the other side, to see where peaceful coexistence is possible. This may well be where Delta goes.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

They've addressed what they want revenge for. It's primarily the WMD that was dropped on their world. Which may or may not have been used by NUNs, anyway.

Which means we really don't know what happened. Furthermore, we also don't know the extent of the damage the weapon caused on the planet. If there were ruins in that location, there's a chance the core of the planet was damaged. That's what Chaos was afraid of when NUNS announced their plans to nuke the ruins on Ragna, so it's not a stretch to think something like that might have happened on Windermere. We also don't know what happened before the war. Why did Windermere feel they had been robbed of their sovereignty? I only have theories at this point.

There are many things we don't know about this, and I honestly can't say I understand Windermere until I get the whole picture.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Which means you really don't know what happened. Furthermore, we also don't know the extent of the damage that weapon caused on the planet. And there's more, since Heinz's mother is still alive in the manga, but she's nowhere to be seen in the anime. Could it be that something happened to her back then?

There are many things we don't know about this, and I honestly can't say I understand Windermere until I know the whole picture.

Why can't you just take what Windermere leaders say at face value? Why would they lie to each other behind closed doors?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Why can't you just take what Windermere leaders say at face value? Why would they lie to each other behind closed doors?

I'm not saying they're lying, but it's obvious this isn't the whole picture.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I can somewhat sympathize with them feeling a lot of resentment over that. But it was something that was used during the last war, 7 years ago. There had been peace since that war ended. Quite frankly, maybe they should get over it.

...

I can't believe you just said this. I mean: "get over it?" Really? The implication about what the dimension eater did seems to be on an even worse level than Pearl Harbour, or 9/11. We still don't know who did it, so it's highly possible that Windermere didn't do it to themselves, especially if that was where their own Protoculture ruins were. This is a people that feel everything with their runes, so can you imagine the pain they might have felt? And you're telling them to just "get over it?"

I said in in my last post and I'll say it again: I honestly think you need to stop thinking about what you would do, and actually think about how things appear from Windermere's perspective.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And heck, that might even be the parallel and message that Kawamori is aiming for - That real world Japan benefits by distancing itself from WWII and the old horrors of the past. That old nationalistic resentments does not do Japan any favors. I really do think there's a good chance that Windermere is based on WWII era Japan.

Knowing what I know of Japanese domestic politics and how progressives like Kawamori probably think about Japan's post-war, I highly doubt that.

[Tenzen12]

I don't getting over it is option either, especially are there is various implications it negatively influence planet environment even now.

[Darthtabby]

Trying to play peacemaker here: I do agree that people need to forgive and move forward rather than stewing in anger over the crimes of the past, because an eye for an eye just makes the whole world blind. Someone need to break the cycle of violence. On the other hand, its pretty clear that event left a massive wound on the psyche of many Windermereans. I don't think they've healed enough to be ready to make peace with the off worlders yet. Especially with NUNS claiming they did it to themselves.

Originally Posted by karice67

Knowing what I know of Japanese domestic politics and how progressives like Kawamori probably think about Japan's post-war, I highly doubt that.

Could you elaborate on this? I'm curious.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Which means we really don't know what happened. Furthermore, we also don't know the extent of the damage the weapon caused on the planet. If there were ruins in that location, there's a chance the core of the planet was damaged.

And what, that their planet is doomed? Then why aren't they bringing it up? Why didn't Gramia discuss it in his big Episode 11 speech? It certainly seems like the sort of thing you'd want to bring up in a speech like that - "Today we claim new territory to ensure our survival!"

You know, Kazu-kun, there's a cost to doing dramatic last-minute sob stories that by all rights should have been revealed earlier. This is a really bad anime trope that has hurt many anime shows, in my view. I hope Delta doesn't make that kind of mistake.

Originally Posted by karice67

...

I can't believe you just said this. I mean: "get over it?" Really? The implication about what the dimension eater did seems to be on an even worse level than Pearl Harbour, or 9/11.

Except America didn't start a war with Japan, or a war with Afghanistan (or Saudi Arabia) that directly lead into 9/11. Windermere almost certainly started its own war of independence. How else could it even be a war of independence?

War is a dangerous thing. If you declare a war, you're taking a risk, especially if you're declaring a war on a more powerful party.

Knowing what I know of Japanese domestic politics and how progressives like Kawamori probably think about Japan's post-war, I highly doubt that.

You highly doubt that Japanese progressives would be against old Japanese nationalistic resentments? Karice, that doesn't even make sense.

Here's some questions for you, Karice - Which side of the NUNs/Windermere conflict keeps talking about annihilating or eradicating or ridding themselves of the other side? Which side acts like peaceful coexistence is completely impossible? Do you really think Kawamori wants these sorts of attitudes to be sympathetic?

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Could you elaborate on this? I'm curious.

I don't really have time to go into it specifically for Delta, because it's pretty complex. And I probably wouldn't want to until the show's finished, anyway, so I can see where Kawamori and co. land.


@Triple_R

Then why do people start wars of independence? Do you really think a nation/country will do that just because they want to fight? Why did the US start a war of independence in the 1700s? Are you really trying to argue that nothing could have happened that would have made Windermere want to regain their independence?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You highly doubt that Japanese progressives would be against old Japanese nationalistic resentments? Karice, that doesn't even make sense.

Here's some questions for you, Karice - Which side of the NUNs/Windermere conflict keeps talking about annihilating or eradicating or ridding themselves of the other side? Which side acts like peaceful coexistence is completely impossible? Do you really think Kawamori wants these sorts of attitudes to be sympathetic?

The debate in Japan about why Imperial Japan went to war, just how justified that was and how Japan today should 'atone' for the obviously morally wrong actions that it took in some countries that it invaded (though admittedly, Allied countries did similar things) is more complex than you seem to think, going by your posts and that suggestion about what Kawamori might be doing.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You know, Kazu-kun, there's a cost to doing dramatic last-minute sob stories that by all rights should have been revealed earlier. This is a really bad anime trope that has hurt many anime shows, in my view. I hope Delta doesn't make that kind of mistake.

A few episodes back, the anime revealed that the ruins are connected to the core of the planet. In the latest episode the main characters expressed concern that damaging the ruins could hurt the planet, due to the connection between the ruins and the core. All in all, it feels like this is building up to a bigger reveal later on. I could be wrong, but there are enough hints to make me consider the possibility.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by karice67

@Triple_R

Then why do people start wars of independence? Do you really think a nation/country will do that just because they want to fight? Why did the US start a war of independence in the 1700s? Are you really trying to argue that nothing could have happened that would have made Windermere want to regain their independence?

No, I'm not saying any of that. I'm mainly saying that wars have consequences.

[Mistyclear]

I can't help but wonder just how important those ruins were to the protoculture (and what they thinking when they they did it) if they were willing to attach the ruins to a planets core despite (probably) knowing that destroying them could potentially damage or alter a planet and/or its environment.... Just what on earth were/did the protoculture try(ing) to do with the ruins?
Anyone know or have any theories?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

I can't help but wonder just how important those ruins were to the protoculture (and what they thinking when they they did it) if they were willing to attach the ruins to a planets core despite (probably) knowing that destroying them could potentially damage or alter a planet and/or its environment.... Just what on earth were/did the protoculture try(ing) to do with the ruins?
Anyone know or have any theories?

The protoculture were not sane or happy people. They wiped themselves out for a good reason.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, I'm not saying any of that. I'm mainly saying that wars have consequences.

With the implication that bombing a city/civilian population/cultural artefacts as retaliation (if that is how Windermere's Prootculture Ruins were destroyed) is ok?

By implication, isn't that akin to saying that what Union forces did during the American Civil War (destroying food and supplies that the South needed, by targeting the people) was ok? That the carpet bombing of cities on both sides of WW2 was ok?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by karice67

With the implication that bombing a city/civilian population/cultural artefacts as retaliation (if that is how Windermere's Prootculture Ruins were destroyed) is ok?

By implication, isn't that akin to saying that what Union forces did during the American Civil War (destroying food and supplies that the South needed, by targeting the people) was ok? That the carpet bombing of cities on both sides of WW2 was ok?

No, I'm not saying that it's "ok". Of course it's not "ok". But it's precisely because none of this is Ok that people should be very cautious about declaring war, and why the horrible results of war are almost always a shared responsibility between all sides.

With Windermere, I see a people (or at least its government) that are trying to completely blame others for everything bad that has happened to their world and on their world. And I see the Windermere side repeatedly talk about eradicating and annihilating their enemy, with peaceful coexistence being treated as an impossibility.

Do you really think that these attitudes are sympathetic? Are these the sort of attitudes that should be justified?

I see some very unfortunate implications if Windermere is ever presented as right in feeling the way they do.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, I'm not saying that it's "ok". Of course it's not "ok". But it's precisely because none of this is Ok that people should be very cautious about declaring war, and why the horrible results of war are almost always a shared responsibility between all sides.

With Windermere, I see a people (or at least its government) that are trying to completely blame others for everything bad that has happened to their world and on their world. And I see the Windermere side repeatedly talk about eradicating and annihilating their enemy, with peaceful coexistence being treated as an impossibility.

Do you really think that these attitudes are sympathetic? Are these the sort of attitudes that should be justified?

I see some very unfortunate implications if Windermere is ever presented as right in feeling the way they do.

Of course I'm not saying it is a good thing for people to think it's impossible.

But then the question becomes: so why does Windermere not think that peaceful coexistence is possible? Why did they think that they had no choice but to go to war? Is it because NUN did something so terrible to them that they simply cannot trust them?

That's the difference between you and the other members of the 'Windermere should be crushed' faction and those of us who are waiting to find out the real truth behind Windermere's extreme stance. We believe that it is quite possible that NUN/the 'colonizers' did something that warrants it - after all, they were completely willing to go to Ragna and unilaterally destroy the Protoculture Ruins there, without allowing the Ragnans any say in the matter whatsoever.

Do you seriously expect Windermere to trust an external power that will come in and destroy something that is obviously incredibly important to their people just like that? Especially if the Windermereans think it was NUN that destroyed the ruins on their planet? Tell me, if they believe that NUN is a threat as long as they remain in the sector, what else can they do besides try to kick them out?

[magnuskn]

The way I see it, the Windermere supporters rely on speculation, word of mouth and their understanding of anime meta. I can't speak for the other people who oppose the Windermere aggression, but I myself rely on what we have seen happen in the show and I take the things said by the obvious aggressors, i.e. Windermere, with a big grain of salt. Gramia is so crazed with a desire for vengeance that he is willing to sacrifice his own son, i.e. the future sovereign of his planet to get said vengeance. It would not be unusual to have him do some creative editing of the real events. It is also not unlikely that he was duped by the Epsilon faction.

For the moment, I'd rather believe our protagonists, i.e. Chaos, who do not seem to think that NUNS dropped a bomb on the Windermerans seven years ago. I would rather trust the people who are defending against the aggressors who use mind-control tech to take away the free will of billions of people and commit warcrimes and acts of terrorism to get to their goals.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by karice67

Of course I'm not saying it is a good thing for people to think it's impossible.

But then the question becomes: so why does Windermere not think that peaceful coexistence is possible? Why did they think that they had no choice but to go to war? Is it because NUN did something so terrible to them that they simply cannot trust them?

Maybe it's because they're self-important wankers who won't be content until they're acknowledged as the master race and they know the NUNG will never give them that. Especially as it's the NUNG who pulled them out of their medieval muck.

That's the difference between you and the other members of the 'Windermere should be crushed' faction and those of us who are waiting to find out the real truth behind Windermere's extreme stance. We believe that it is quite possible that NUN/the 'colonizers' did something that warrants it - after all, they were completely willing to go to Ragna and unilaterally destroy the Protoculture Ruins there, without allowing the Ragnans any say in the matter whatsoever.

Do you seriously expect Windermere to trust an external power that will come in and destroy something that is obviously incredibly important to their people just like that?

Something the Windermereans have turned into a WMD to be used, not just against Ragna, but against several inhabited planets.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, for all of these quotes, I'm just going by what I read for the subbed episodes I watched. So I'm open to people pointing out translation errors.

I don't know if Gramia, Roid, Keith, etc... want to kill every last earthling or not. My personal impression is that they'd be satisfied with ridding the Brisignr Cluster of all earthlings, even if that mainly means just forcing earthlings (humans?) to abandon the cluster and flee to other places in the universe. I don't think the Windermereans are insanely blood-thirsty, although their desire for revenge means that they're probably going to enjoy what kills they do get.

I would say that Gramia and Keith are ruthless enough to kill people to claim their goal. Roid is thinking more like a politician. That's why Keith insulted him, that his sword get rusty.

Originally Posted by karice67

Of course I'm not saying it is a good thing for people to think it's impossible.

But then the question becomes: so why does Windermere not think that peaceful coexistence is possible? Why did they think that they had no choice but to go to war? Is it because NUN did something so terrible to them that they simply cannot trust them?

That's the difference between you and the other members of the 'Windermere should be crushed' faction and those of us who are waiting to find out the real truth behind Windermere's extreme stance. We believe that it is quite possible that NUN/the 'colonizers' did something that warrants it - after all, they were completely willing to go to Ragna and unilaterally destroy the Protoculture Ruins there, without allowing the Ragnans any say in the matter whatsoever.

Do you seriously expect Windermere to trust an external power that will come in and destroy something that is obviously incredibly important to their people just like that? Especially if the Windermereans think it was NUN that destroyed the ruins on their planet? Tell me, if they believe that NUN is a threat as long as they remain in the sector, what else can they do besides try to kick them out?

This is now a guess. Maybe NUN have ignored the Windermere on economic, political and social issues addressed to them and the only way out of this is by declaring war. This lies next with Roids explanation: "Forty years ago, the New United Government reached out to us Windermereans. However, under their cooperative guise hid true evil. They crafted a profoundly unequal treaty and sought to monopolize all profits."