Shakugan no Shana Terminology and Metaphysics Discussion Thread

[lazyasian224]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

I don't think that's possible, as Flame Hazes used to be humans themselves.

As I mentioned earlier, while a Denizen or Rinne can replenish itself or even increase its PoE amount by absorbing the PoE of others (the difference from that and the Reiji Maigo is that the Reiji Maigo replenish and increases PoE on its own), humans cannot. Humans can only "stretch" their existence via their social networking.



Think of humans as "clay potteries" of various sizes while Denizens are like "water", since "water" cannot take form without a container.

Denizens/Lords who steal others PoE are forcefully taking form unnaturally without using a pot. But as they have no container to hold their "water", it would eventually leak if they don't replenish it constantly. Lords who form contracts with Flame Hazes use the more natural way, in that they seek a "pot" to contain themselves.

A great Crimson Lord would require a very large "pot" to contain the large amount of "water" that comes with him. Once a pot is made (forming the contract), you can't just ask the pot to grow bigger anymore, so the Lord would need to choose carefully.

okay, i think i get that part now arigato

but still, is it possible for Shana and Alastor's previous flame haze to maybe share the same existance? Cant a person be reborn and contain the same existance as the person they were originally? and also, realize how shana sorta "aquired" hirai yukari's existance by using a small amount of hirai's PoV. isnt it possible that Shana also "aquired" Alastor's original flame haze's existance? because its possible to have more than one existance considering that to almost every other human in the world, Shana exists as Hirai Yukari, yet to Yuji, and the few other humans that know about Shana being a flame haze (Yoshida and Margery's two henchmen or w.e) Shana exists as two people who are the same...

im gonna apoligize ahead of time for confusion...

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

I don't think that's possible, as Flame Hazes used to be humans themselves.

As I mentioned earlier, while a Denizen or Rinne can replenish itself or even increase its PoE amount by absorbing the PoE of others (the difference from that and the Reiji Maigo is that the Reiji Maigo replenish and increases PoE on its own), humans cannot. Humans can only "stretch" their existence via their social networking.

I'm not necessarily sure that discounts the idea though.

Sure, a human can't gain another's power of existence, but that doesn't mean they can't gain another's social connections. After all, the Flaming Haired and Blazing Eyed Assassin is supposedly the most well known of all the Flame Hazes. For such a renowned 'position', is it crazy to say that by simply being the successor Shana's own existence was affected?

[KaneDragon]

Originally Posted by ashlay

For such a renowned 'position', is it crazy to say that by simply being the successor Shana's own existence was affected?

That idea appeals to me, but it doesn't seem to mesh with other aspects, like Flame Hazes and the like not forgetting (except for by just not caring ) about people who disappear, and how the human existence of a Flame Haze 'disappears' when they become on (if I recall correctly). Which is to say, notoriety doesn't count for people like them.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by KaneDragon

That idea appeals to me, but it doesn't seem to mesh with other aspects, like Flame Hazes and the like not forgetting (except for by just not caring ) about people who disappear, and how the human existence of a Flame Haze 'disappears' when they become on (if I recall correctly). Which is to say, notoriety doesn't count for people like them.

well, that's assuming notoriety from the crimson realm doesn't count. which is perfectly possible.

but on the other hand the entire thing wraps itself up quite nicely: flame hazes have a set PoE once they become a flame haze, so even if Matilda gained fame among the crimson realm, her PoE wouldn't be affected by the fame, which is why she dies. Shana as a human however can benefit from said fame centuries later thanks to the fact Denizens and Lords don't have any set lifespan, meaning the notoriety doesn't particularly die down, and then become a flame haze herself. Would also get rid of that nasty issue of how an orphan would be chosen, since if PoE "size" didn't matter, Wilhelmina and Alastor were just looking for someone who won't have negative feelings about the crimson realm and can be taught to uphold the balance.

I dunno, it just seems to be a somewhat appealing theory at the moment.

[lazyasian224]

yay someone supports my crazy ideas!

[lazyasian224]

Originally Posted by KaneDragon

That idea appeals to me, but it doesn't seem to mesh with other aspects, like Flame Hazes and the like not forgetting (except for by just not caring ) about people who disappear, and how the human existence of a Flame Haze 'disappears' when they become on (if I recall correctly). Which is to say, notoriety doesn't count for people like them.

basically this arguement depends on whether Crimson Denizens and Lords count towards existance of a human in the human world.

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by lazyasian224

okay, i think i get that part now arigato

but still, is it possible for Shana and Alastor's previous flame haze to maybe share the same existance? Cant a person be reborn and contain the same existance as the person they were originally?

I don't think reincarnation applies in the Shana-verse. At least it's not revealed yet by Takahashi. Shana is Shana, and Matilda (her predecessor) is Matilda. They're two different people, full stop.

and also, realize how shana sorta "aquired" hirai yukari's existance by using a small amount of hirai's PoV. isnt it possible that Shana also "aquired" Alastor's original flame haze's existance?

because its possible to have more than one existance considering that to almost every other human in the world, Shana exists as Hirai Yukari, yet to Yuji, and the few other humans that know about Shana being a flame haze (Yoshida and Margery's two henchmen or w.e) Shana exists as two people who are the same...

You're confusing the two aspects.

A Flame Haze has the ability to "butt in" a Torch's existence and assumes the identity of that Torch, usually for reconnaissance purposes.

There is a special prequel chapter in volume 0 that chronicles Shana's attempt in doing detective work while assuming a Torch's identity. This was just before she came to Misaki City and met Yuji. Upon completion of her mission and vanquishing the Denizen, Shana no longer has any use for the Torch's "existence", and so she extinguished it.

Currently, she's remained as "Hirai Yukari" for far too long than what one would expect. Simply because Shana's begun to be attached to Yuji and Misaki City, which would have repercussions later on in the story.

On the other hand, it is not Shana "acquiring" Alastor's existence. It's the other way round - Alastor requires Shana's existence in order for his power to be used to hunt other Denizens without having to steal anyone's PoE.

im gonna apoligize ahead of time for confusion...

Sorry to sound like the Spelling Nazi, but you would also need to apologize for your horrendous spelling. For god's sake, this forum interface has a spell check, use it!

Sure, a human can't gain another's power of existence, but that doesn't mean they can't gain another's social connections.

Fair enough, when a prince succeeds his father the king, his social network expands due to his esteem as a king compared to a prince.

After all, the Flaming Haired and Blazing Eyed Assassin is supposedly the most well known of all the Flame Hazes. For such a renowned 'position', is it crazy to say that by simply being the successor Shana's own existence was affected?

I'm not sure what you're trying to convey.

As much as I can understand, any person who forms a contract with Alastor would be conveyed the title "Flame-Haired Blazing-Eyed Assassin", just as anyone who is contracted to Marchosius would be the "Interpreter of Condolences", etc.

Think of it like different jobs requiring different qualifications to justify the various salaries. The position "Flame-Haired Blazing-Eyed Assassin" requires someone with the right amount of existence to justify holding Alastor inside her. Shana comes with that huge amount of PoE she has with her.

but on the other hand the entire thing wraps itself up quite nicely: flame hazes have a set PoE once they become a flame haze, so even if Matilda gained fame among the crimson realm, her PoE wouldn't be affected by the fame, which is why she dies.

Shana as a human however can benefit from said fame centuries later thanks to the fact Denizens and Lords don't have any set lifespan, meaning the notoriety doesn't particularly die down, and then become a flame haze herself. Would also get rid of that nasty issue of how an orphan would be chosen, since if PoE "size" didn't matter, Wilhelmina and Alastor were just looking for someone who won't have negative feelings about the crimson realm and can be taught to uphold the balance.

While most of it is spot on, you've got one fact wrong (see bold). Matilda died because she decides to forcefully smash her body apart and allow Alastor to physically manifest, apparently to put a swift end to a war between Denizens and Flame Hazes. Had she not made this sacrifice, she would have continued to live on to this day.

basically this arguement depends on whether Crimson Denizens and Lords count towards existance of a human in the human world.

I can tell you, they do not count towards the total PoE of a human. Look at my "pottery" and "water" example above. A Crimson Lord is just "borrowing" the existence of a human so that their powers can be utilized via that human.

[lazyasian224]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

I don't think reincarnation applies in the Shana-verse. At least it's not revealed yet by Takahashi. Shana is Shana, and Matilda (her predecessor) is Matilda. They're two different people, full stop.

omg thank u i can finally stop writing "Alastor's previous flame haze"

A Flame Haze has the ability to "butt in" a Torch's existence and assumes the identity of that Torch, usually for reconnaissance purposes.

There is a special prequel chapter in volume 0 that chronicles Shana's attempt in doing detective work while assuming a Torch's identity. This was just before she came to Misaki City and met Yuji. Upon completion of her mission and vanquishing the Denizen, Shana no longer has any use for the Torch's "existence", and so she extinguished it.

Currently, she's remained as "Hirai Yukari" for far too long than what one would expect. Simply because Shana's begun to be attached to Yuji and Misaki City, which would have repercussions later on in the story.

okay so hypothetically, when a Flame Haze “butts into” a Torch’s existence, since that flame haze is now that torch, wouldn’t the flame haze gain that torch’s relationships with other people and therefore, have more existence?

On the other hand, it is not Shana "acquiring" Alastor's existence. It's the other way round - Alastor requires Shana's existence in order for his power to be used to hunt other Denizens without having to steal anyone's PoE.

When I said this, I meant was it possible for Shana to “butt in” on Matilda’s existence? Assuming that Alastor kept some of Matilda’s power of existence after she died and saved it for Shana to “butt into.”

Sorry to sound like the Spelling Nazi, but you would also need to apologize for your horrendous spelling. For god's sake, this forum interface has a spell check, use it!

np, i know it gets annoying when people like me are always spelling stuff wrong... now if only i can find that spell check...

I can tell you, they do not count towards the total PoE of a human. Look at my "pottery" and "water" example above. A Crimson Lord is just "borrowing" the existence of a human so that their powers can be utilized via that human.

Let me rephrase. If a specific human is known by a Crimson Denizen or lord, does that human have more PoE due to that relationship? Or is the amount of PoE you contain only affected by members of the same world?

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by lazyasian224

okay so hypothetically, when a Flame Haze “butts into” a Torch’s existence, since that flame haze is now that torch, wouldn’t the flame haze gain that torch’s relationships with other people and therefore, have more existence?

No. The Flame Haze would only be "borrowing" that Torch's "connections" in order to blend in. That prequel chapter has further description on how Shana taps into these "social connections" that she senses. Like when approaching the parents of the late Torch, she can sense a much "stronger, intimate feeling", and with the Torch's boyfriend, an emotion "so strong it can't be described easily".

But overall, it does not add to Shana's PoE, she is only borrowing it, just as she's still borrowing Hirai Yukari's remnant PoE. This is the major difference between a Denizen and a Flame Haze. A Denizen (and Reiji Maigo as well) can absorb and add to its total PoE value, a Flame Haze is stuck with what he's got.

When I said this, I meant was it possible for Shana to “butt in” on Matilda’s existence? Assuming that Alastor kept some of Matilda’s power of existence after she died and saved it for Shana to “butt into.”

You can't butt into the existence of people who're already dead via the more "natural" way, i.e. never got their existence devoured. When Matilda died, Alastor lost a vessel, and so had to return to the Crimson World, communicating with this world through that "flame pool" in Tendoukyuu.

Let me rephrase. If a specific human is known by a Crimson Denizen or lord, does that human have more PoE due to that relationship? Or is the amount of PoE you contain only affected by members of the same world?

Sorry, I don't quite understand this question.

[lazyasian224]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

No. The Flame Haze would only be "borrowing" that Torch's "connections" in order to blend in. That prequel chapter has further description on how Shana taps into these "social connections" that she senses. Like when approaching the parents of the late Torch, she can sense a much "stronger, intimate feeling", and with the Torch's boyfriend, an emotion "so strong it can't be described easily".

But overall, it does not add to Shana's PoE, she is only borrowing it, just as she's still borrowing Hirai Yukari's remnant PoE. This is the major difference between a Denizen and a Flame Haze. A Denizen (and Reiji Maigo as well) can absorb and add to its total PoE value, a Flame Haze is stuck with what he's got.

okay that makes sense now guess I just needed that last sentence to make everything click.

You can't butt into the existence of people who're already dead via the more "natural" way, i.e. never got their existence devoured. When Matilda died, Alastor lost a vessel, and so had to return to the Crimson World, communicating with this world through that "flame pool" in Tendoukyuu.

I don’t get why not, natural dying does not mean the end of existence… just because someone is dead its not like everyone forgets about that person. Therefore some of that person’s existence remains with the people that he knew. I’d think it be a lot easier to butt into a person’s existence that died naturally since their existence wasn’t completely erased as in a devouring.

But then again if u butted into a dead person’s existence… you’d be messing with the balance because then in other people’s eyes, someone will have been revived from the dead. I duno



Well, if the PoE of human’s increases with the amount of social connections that they have with other humans, does a social connection with a Crimson Denizen or lord also increase the PoE of a human?

For example:

An orphaned baby who no one knows about is discovered by say… Hecate. Say Hecate takes care of the baby in secret for a while. Does that human baby’s power of existence increase because of a social connection to Hecate? Or do relationships with members of the opposite world (Guze) not affect a human’s own power of existence since beings of Guze do not exist in the human world?

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by lazyasian224

I don’t get why not, natural dying does not mean the end of existence… just because someone is dead its not like everyone forgets about that person. Therefore some of that person’s existence remains with the people that he knew. I’d think it be a lot easier to butt into a person’s existence that died naturally since their existence wasn’t completely erased as in a devouring.

But then again if u butted into a dead person’s existence… you’d be messing with the balance because then in other people’s eyes, someone will have been revived from the dead. I duno

OK, I'll concede that Flame Hazes may be able to "butt into" a dead person's PoE, but it's impractical.

Firstly, a dead person's PoE is too insignificantly small compared to a living person. Even a dwindling Torch has more PoE.

Secondly, as you have noticed, everyone now would know that this person's supposed to be dead, so let's say you try and "butt into" Ronald Reagan's existence in the present day, you'll be causing a ruckus rather than trying to investigate in stealth, which defeats the purpose of "butting in" in the first place.

Well, if the PoE of human’s increases with the amount of social connections that they have with other humans, does a social connection with a Crimson Denizen or lord also increase the PoE of a human?

For example:

An orphaned baby who no one knows about is discovered by say… Hecate. Say Hecate takes care of the baby in secret for a while. Does that human baby’s power of existence increase because of a social connection to Hecate? Or do relationships with members of the opposite world (Guze) not affect a human’s own power of existence since beings of Guze do not exist in the human world?

I would think that the baby's PoE wouldn't increase at all. I'm guessing PoE is dependent on bonds between the physical world, not bonds based on the Crimson World.

[hayate-sama]

Say Hecate takes care of the baby in secret for a while

Then the only person or Tomogara know that baby exists is Hecate so that baby don't gain much connection.

Or do relationships with members of the opposite world (Guze) not affect a human’s own power of existence since beings of Guze do not exist in the human world?

Tomogara don't have relationship with human ( except Pheles - a fairy tale of guze about the power of love) they just eat our existence and more important except you have some Hongu (Yoshida) or have some Unrestricted Spell being casted on you, you will be freeze inside the Fuzetsu.

I just have some funny ideas about human/ tomogara/ flame haze from Kinny Riddle 's water and pot theory.
PoE = water
Human = water ball, once it brake , cannot be repaired but can grow bigger
Torch = another type of water ball , but cannot keep water being split out and cannot grow bigger
Flamhaze = pot , pretty big, contain a lot of water but cannot add in or get water from it.
Tomogara = uhm another type of ball like torch but can be refill by getting water.
Myste = special type of torch, contain something interesting inside it like water generator ( renji maigo), music box, ring ( azure ) and teddy bear ^^..

[lazyasian224]

Originally Posted by hayate-sama

Tomogara don't have relationship with human ( except Pheles - a fairy tale of guze about the power of love) they just eat our existence and more important except you have some Hongu (Yoshida) or have some Unrestricted Spell being casted on you, you will be freeze inside the Fuzetsu.

but Guze no Ou do have relationships with humans. Alastor - Yuji's mom, Margery's Book dude - Margery's Henchmen dudes, That Tuner's Braclet thing - Yoshida. So my questions was if these relationships affect the PoE of the Humans involved. Which i see was answered by Kiddy Riddle. Thank you. Looks like u have another person to suggest the spell checker to.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

While most of it is spot on, you've got one fact wrong (see bold). Matilda died because she decides to forcefully smash her body apart and allow Alastor to physically manifest, apparently to put a swift end to a war between Denizens and Flame Hazes. Had she not made this sacrifice, she would have continued to live on to this day.

my mistake.

I had been under the impression that such actions were required because Matilda couldn't fully manifest Alastor like Shana could due to PoE restrictions.

[hayate-sama]

Looks like u have another person to suggest the spell checker to.

What do you mean ? sorry I 'm not a native speaker.

Guze no Ou do have relationships with humans. Alastor - Yuji's mom, Margery's Book dude - Margery's Henchmen dudes, That Tuner's Braclet thing - Yoshida

I thought the relationship with crimson lord don't effect the PoE of human in our world. But if a person or a torch know the truth of this world they could become ineffective with the existence rule.

EX : Yuji began to see the flame in a torch after get inside the fuzetsu and in the preview for the 16 th volume

Spoiler for 16th:

furthermore シャナ and Yoshida Kazumi continue to believe his existence

look like Yoshida still remember Yuji after the snake take over his body

Spoiler for the 16th:

Losing origin 'the power of existence' it assumed that it was not

i wonder what does this mean ? Look like the extra existence Yuji got doesn't belong to him

[KaneDragon]

Originally Posted by lazyasian224

An orphaned baby who no one knows about is discovered by say… Hecate. Say Hecate takes care of the baby in secret for a while.

...Hecate... raising a baby... *clutches chest, falls over* ;_;


Hm. If a torch dies before it burns out, does it still burn out?

[alvinkhorfire]

Was it explained in the novels on the steps to cast a Fuzetsu? I don't suppose the only explantion is that the Flame Haze is concentrating and yells Fuzetsu.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by KaneDragon

Hm. If a torch dies before it burns out, does it still burn out?

Well i think it just burns out when the torch dies, you know, at the same time. If i remember correctly this was shown or talked about during shana and Yuijis first encounter with the puppet-lover, although i am not sure of this.

[KaneDragon]

Originally Posted by alvinkhorfire

Was it explained in the novels on the steps to cast a Fuzetsu? I don't suppose the only explantion is that the Flame Haze is concentrating and yells Fuzetsu.

I'm hoping that you can actually choose whatever keyword you want to activate a Fuzetsu, just so I can imagine someone using, say, ZA WARUDO!!!!

What happens to objects that are moved or changed during a Fuzetsu if these changes are not corrected by applying PoE? Does a person who was inside the Fuzetsu suddenly start thinking that the changes were always there? What about a person who was outside the Fuzetsu (considering that for the duration of the spell they would have forgotten the existence of the entire area that was enclosed)? Just checking.

[lazyasian224]

Originally Posted by KaneDragon

What happens to objects that are moved or changed during a Fuzetsu if these changes are not corrected by applying PoE?

one of two things, it would either seem like it had always been that way if it is minor, or people who noticed the difference would begin to wonder why and that would cause imbalance and distortion

Does a person who was inside the Fuzetsu suddenly start thinking that the changes were always there?

up there...^

What about a person who was outside the Fuzetsu (considering that for the duration of the spell they would have forgotten the existence of the entire area that was enclosed)? Just checking.

its exactly as u said. for that duration of time, the enclosed area would no longer exist so people would simply forget everything related to that area until the fuzetsu is dispelled, then they remember