[Manga] Chapter 488 Discussion

[kk2extreme]

i think with ems, you can spam ms techique as much as you want without getting blind if you have enough chakra...

[morbosfist]

Such would be the point of it being "eternal".

[CoreyPmc1]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

On the other hand he is just an idiot who is always controlled by someone, many people competed for the influence over Sasuke. We see how Orochimaru was afraid that Naruto's growing influence over Sasuke will ruin his plans to control Sasuke. We have seen that Sasuke was doing what Itachi wanted, until Madara came and now Sasuke is controlled by Madara. Again we see how Madara has a bit of fear that Naruto might influence Sasuke just like he did with Nagato.

On the surface it seems that it is Sasuke who has "free will", the one who does what he wants, while Naruto is bound to the village and must listen to orders given to him. However if we look behind this surface what we see is that Sasuke is always controlled by powerful people while Naruto is the one who somehow controls powerful people. Look at people like Tsunade, Jiraiya, Chiyo, Gaara, Shikamaru's father, Kakashi, Nagato and many more, Naruto has or had great influence on them, many of them changed their mind and began to do the opposite of what they were doing until then. Even if he is a genin in most of the cases even the hokage is doing what Naruto wants, for example Kakashi and Yamato went out to the kage summit because Naruto wanted that, and the latest event: the chuunins and jounins are listening to Naruto when he says that he is the only one to fight with Sasuke, despite he is not even telling them the reason.

I Definitely agree

[SuigetsuKun]

Originally Posted by james0246

I will disagree with this, though, if for no other reason than the fact that the manga is named Naruto, and it would be the pinnacle of bad writing (or at least shitty writing) for the main protagonist to be nothing more than a plot device for the antagonist

I know this was dedicated to Hunter, furthermore I agree with you except one point. Just what you said makes it most presumable that it will happen.

Originally Posted by james0246

@Hunter: Sasuke becoming the "incarnation of the problem" is only the means by which Naruto can find a solution/prove whatever solution he concocts. Consequently, as I said, Sasuke is plot device for Naruto's solution.

Yes, indeed, and it means that Sasuke still has to grow because up to now, the real conflict is missing. If Sasuke killed Sakura, things would be different.

Originally Posted by james0246

...pointing out that Naruto had character development, whereas I do not believe Sasuke has really had any

That's what I wanted to say as well.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

On the other hand he is just an idiot who is always controlled by someone, many people competed for the influence over Sasuke. We see how Orochimaru was afraid that Naruto's growing influence over Sasuke will ruin his plans to control Sasuke. We have seen that Sasuke was doing what Itachi wanted, until Madara came and now Sasuke is controlled by Madara. Again we see how Madara has a bit of fear that Naruto might influence Sasuke just like he did with Nagato.

There is always a bigger fish, but don't forget that Suigetsu can turn into the sea itself.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Naruto has or had great influence on them, many of them changed their mind and began to do the opposite of what they were doing until then. Even if he is a genin in most of the cases even the hokage is doing what Naruto wants, for example Kakashi and Yamato went out to the kage summit because Naruto wanted that, and the latest event: the chuunins and jounins are listening to Naruto when he says that he is the only one to fight with Sasuke, despite he is not even telling them the reason.

I think that he never noticed how spoiled he was. With Kakashi, he got one of the strongest Jounin trainers in the village.
Even during the chuunin exams, the Hokage's grandchild's trainer spent some time training Naruto... until Jiraiya, one of the legendary sannin came along and trained him. Ebisu didn't know what we all know, but Jiraiya and Kakashi both knew who Naruto is - their student's/teacher's son. In fact, Naruto had a strong teacher and he fascinates people the way his father did. He might be very different, but in fact, he's the guy people follow because they just feel that they can trust him and rely on him.

Suigetsu is the best, we all know that. Naruto's not able to hold a candle on Suigetsu. He'd give it all into one blast and Suigetsu would simply survive. Running water never grows stale. You can't land a hit on Suigetsu... In fact, Suigetsu could simply make Madara drown.

[Justice Knight]

is the latest spoiler just LOLing me????

Spoiler:

tsuande is pigging out to replenish her chakra. kakashi appears
(I) just missed being made hokage
Tsundade calls for a meeting and perpares for war
Naruto visits the fortune telling frog
mainly -you are going to meet an octopus and confront one with powerful eyes.
Can you guess who they are?
Naruto: I'm ready
He gets the key for the kyubi seal

Kabuto confronts madara
ah Sasori's old spy, traitors must die. -and with that he attacks kabuto. a summons appears behind (tobi?)
Madara: This...this is edotensei!
from the casket comes itachi, sasori, deidera kakuzu and nagato.

[milan kyuubi]

Originally Posted by SuigetsuKun

Suigetsu is the best, we all know that. Naruto's not able to hold a candle on Suigetsu. He'd give it all into one blast and Suigetsu would simply survive. Running water never grows stale. You can't land a hit on Suigetsu... In fact, Suigetsu could simply make Madara drown.

Or Naruto can use rasenshuriken and eradicate all water and Suigetsu together.

[Kakosan]

Originally Posted by Justice Knight

is the latest spoiler just LOLing me????

Spoiler:

tsuande is pigging out to replenish her chakra. kakashi appears
(I) just missed being made hokage
Tsundade calls for a meeting and perpares for war
Naruto visits the fortune telling frog
mainly -you are going to meet an octopus and confront one with powerful eyes.
Can you guess who they are?
Naruto: I'm ready
He gets the key for the kyubi seal

Kabuto confronts madara
ah Sasori's old spy, traitors must die. -and with that he attacks kabuto. a summons appears behind (tobi?)
Madara: This...this is edotensei!
from the casket comes itachi, sasori, deidera kakuzu and nagato.

Most probably.... can't you see Hidan is not included?

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by Kakosan

Most probably.... can't you see Hidan is not included?

Hidan can't die. He is still under the ground cursing Shikamaru...

[DeDe]

Kishimoto recently said that Hidan wasn't dead...yet. He is decomposing and will die soon. So that's why he is not there. Sucks to be Hidan. Shika really pwned him since Kabuto can't even use him. Now he is irrelevant.

The spoilers seem legit. Nja wasn't trolling. He also said their eyes are black. Zombie Akasuki.

Honestly, it seems like Kishi brought back these guys so the side characters have something to fight during the war. I imagine the zombies will be weaker than the original since they lack free will. Maybe there will be more zombies? Naruto is turning into a George Romero movie.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by Justice Knight

is the latest spoiler just LOLing me????

Spoiler:

tsuande is pigging out to replenish her chakra. kakashi appears
(I) just missed being made hokage
Tsundade calls for a meeting and perpares for war
Naruto visits the fortune telling frog
mainly -you are going to meet an octopus and confront one with powerful eyes.
Can you guess who they are?
Naruto: I'm ready
He gets the key for the kyubi seal

Kabuto confronts madara
ah Sasori's old spy, traitors must die. -and with that he attacks kabuto. a summons appears behind (tobi?)
Madara: This...this is edotensei!
from the casket comes itachi, sasori, deidera kakuzu and nagato.

-Yes, it is just pulling you by the nose. Edotensei is a justu that requires human sacrifices and in this case, Kabuto would need 5 of them. And from the spoilers, it seems like he had none with him.

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Hidan can't die. He is still under the ground cursing Shikamaru...

-Actually, Hidan can die since he needs to keep killing to keep up his immortality. Since he hasn't done that in a while it is likely that he is dead (though no actual time in between kills to prove this has been stated).

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-Yes, it is just pulling you by the nose. Edotensei is a justu that requires human sacrifices and in this case, Kabuto would need 5 of them. And from the spoilers, it seems like he had none with him.

Well, he was shown killing those waterfall nin IIRC...

[AuroraFlash]

The spoiler would tell us that Kabuto went to the Hidden Waterfall because Kakuzu's body was there, am I right?

[DeDe]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-Yes, it is just pulling you by the nose. Edotensei is a justu that requires human sacrifices and in this case, Kabuto would need 5 of them. And from the spoilers, it seems like he had none with him.

A few chapters ago it showed Kabuto killing some ninja. Those are the guys. Their bodies become the new vessels. Just like Kin and Zaku did with the First and Second Hokages.

Nja is standing behind this spoiler and already posted the correct Bleach and OP spoilers. It's real.

Naruto will also meet Kirabi and someone with powerful eyes in the future. Likely Sasuke with Itachi's eyes.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by DeDe

A few chapters ago it showed Kabuto killing some ninja. Those are the guys. Their bodies become the new vessels. Just like Kin and Zaku did with the First and Second Hokages.

Nja is standing behind this spoiler and already posted the correct Bleach and OP spoilers. It's real.

Naruto will also meet Kirabi and someone with powerful eyes in the future. Likely Sasuke with Itachi's eyes.

-Ah I see, that would make more sense then. Though didn't Kabuto starngle them to death? I thought the sacrifices were supposed to be living. Then again, he did only go after their throats so maybe he just made them pass out and then used their unconscious bodies for the sacrifice. Well, I guess you can look at it this way: at least those fodder ninja now get to be imitation Akatsuki which is a much better fate than being fodder.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

@Hunter: Sasuke becoming the "incarnation of the problem" is only the means by which Naruto can find a solution/prove whatever solution he concocts. Consequently, as I said, Sasuke is plot device for Naruto's solution. (Additionally, I never claimed that Naruto's character development was good (if readers will recall, I, along with Rahan, was one fo the most vocal on this forum, concerning Naruto's awful "discussions" with Karui and the Raikage), rather I was simply pointing out that Naruto had character development, whereas I do not believe Sasuke has really had any (or at least nothing to the degree that Naruto had). Also, I did not mind that Naruto did not have an answer to Nagato's meaningful questions, in fact I find that refreshing (many other manga that ask such questions resort to some BS (which Naruto will eventually also use) about "peace, love and understanding"), because there si no real answer; but, I hated Nagato's reaction to Naruto's words.)

The problem here is that your definition of plot device is way too large, going by this everything and everyone is a plot device and so pointing out Sasuke as a plot device has little value because it just means he is the 2nd most important plot device of the story.
I wasn't saying you thought Naruto's development was good, I was saying that you, and many others people in this thread, are holding a double standard according to your feelings rather than facts.
I think your dislike of Sasuke's character and the way he has been developed make you say he has had none whereas it is obviously untrue :
While they all are shounen characters, ie one dimensional archetype unlikely to change in any great way (at least more than once if they used to be vilain) Sasuke's persona has changed a lot since its creation.
Of course -just as everyone else- his main goal has remained the same, but the boy who would sacrifice himself to save his friends became someone who would smile while attempting to kill them just because they stood in the way or were no longer useful to him on the short run. That's one hell of a change, claiming there has been no development between the Sasuke who tried to save Karin from Amaterasu and the one who coldly attempted to kill her because she was no longer useful is nothing but selective blindness.

Now let's take a look at Naruto since those two are always compared (and since they are the only two characters Kishimoto really bothers about). Almost the same can be said about him, his main goal hasn't changed since the beginning, in fact I happen to think Naruto and Sasuke's development are incredibly similar but going in exactly in opposite direction.
Naruto's main goal hasn't changed one bit since the first arc and was firmly stated at the end in front of the graves of Zabuza and Haku : changing the meaning of being a ninja. Even becoming Hokage and saving Sasuke is an extension to that. As the story unfolded Naruto's goal became more global, to be a different kind of ninja, to eventually change the Hyuga, to change his ennemy into what he believed they should be, to make those change to the entire ninja society. His goal hasn't changed, his simply extended them to the rest of the world.
Which is exactly what happened to Sasuke's characters as well, his main goal hasn't changed, but as he fell prey to his own rage and hatred he also extended them to the rest Konoha (and considering the way he is going, the world if he were to success, just like Nagato once did).

[Sasheks]

^I agree with you about the character development thing, they both have developed.
Though Naruto and Sasuke did change their roles slightly.
/Naruto - charging ahead with screams and fists ; Sasuke - thinking,
whereas now Naruto tries to actually talk with his enemies while Sasuke is attacking everything and everyone/

Originally Posted by SuigetsuKun

Suigetsu is the best, we all know that. Naruto's not able to hold a candle on Suigetsu. He'd give it all into one blast and Suigetsu would simply survive. Running water never grows stale. You can't land a hit on Suigetsu... In fact, Suigetsu could simply make Madara drown.

I don't know if you're joking or not but is it just me or did Juugo actually carried a beaten up Suigetsu on his back after the Kirabi fight. But then again he saved their sorry as*es.

[michaelman]

Now that Sasuke has Itachi's eyes... Will he get the legendary sword and shield that Itachi equiped his version of susano with?