[Anime-only] Shippuden Episode 159 Discussion

[Kafriel]

Orochimaru would be at an advantage, he's got a million ways of substitution/escape, and lots of...snaaaakes! Itachi is invincible, his artifacts are hacks in the very literal sense of the term: anything he strikes gets sucked into eternal genjutsu, anything coming at him is deflected.

[CoreyPmc1]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

I don’t know, I think you guys are underrating Oro-sama…He was stronger than Jaraiya with a million more jutsu’s and forbidden techniques (Didn’t Pain even admit Jaraiya could have beaten him if he found out his secret a little sooner)…I think other than Naruto, Oro would have the best chance at taking down Pain a notch…I think when facing Pain, the more high level techniques the better…At the very least you can engage the other Pain’s while figuring out their capabilities…Oro is as strategic as he is powerful, so I think he’d have a shot...Atleast better than Kakashi and Jaraiya…


Now Naruto is gonna hax his way to a win regardless, but he has the stamina and cloning ability to deal with Pain unlike Itachi….I think stamina and chakra reserves are paramount verses this guy…Itachi (who was dying although we didn’t know it) would run out of chakra before he could take out all the Pain’s IMO…Even if he pulls an Amatseru, you gotta hit all six of there a$$ess right? And Susuno’o would get sucked into Miroku-Pain’s wind-tunnel right? (Inuyasha refrence there^^) Hell I don’t even know if you can use MonkeyGold Sharingan on Pain’s eyes since the REAL PAIN might be puppeteering all these fools from an Al’Queda cave somewhere…So I think Itachi might have an even harder time than Oro…But I do think Oro is getting a raw deal here in-terms of if he could deal with Pain…

"Jiraiya is the most skilled member of the Legendary Sannin according to the Third Data Book."

Also:
Total Stats
Tsunade: 35
Orochimaru: 35
Jiraiya:35.5

[somedude1]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

I don’t know, I think you guys are underrating Oro-sama…He was stronger than Jaraiya with a million more jutsu’s and forbidden techniques (Didn’t Pain even admit Jaraiya could have beaten him if he found out his secret a little sooner)…I think other than Naruto, Oro would have the best chance at taking down Pain a notch…I think when facing Pain, the more high level techniques the better…At the very least you can engage the other Pain’s while figuring out their capabilities…Oro is as strategic as he is powerful, so I think he’d have a shot...Atleast better than Kakashi and Jaraiya…


Now Naruto is gonna hax his way to a win regardless, but he has the stamina and cloning ability to deal with Pain unlike Itachi….I think stamina and chakra reserves are paramount verses this guy…Itachi (who was dying although we didn’t know it) would run out of chakra before he could take out all the Pain’s IMO…Even if he pulls an Amatseru, you gotta hit all six of there a$$ess right? And Susuno’o would get sucked into Miroku-Pain’s wind-tunnel right? (Inuyasha refrence there^^) Hell I don’t even know if you can use MonkeyGold Sharingan on Pain’s eyes since the REAL PAIN might be puppeteering all these fools from an Al’Queda cave somewhere…So I think Itachi might have an even harder time than Oro…But I do think Oro is getting a raw deal here in-terms of if he could deal with Pain…

i dont think oro would have a chance against pain cause he wont be able to get close, he would have to deal with multiple summonings as well as missiles and crazy ass telekenises.

[wingdarkness]

Those rankings are bull...That's like a sportsbook ranking the Cleveland Cavs over the Orlando Magic, but the Magic are the better team...You wanna stand behind that that's fine..It's official so you are in coolzone, but based on what is shown in the anime, Oro has far more techniques and skills than Jairaya has ever shown....

[Kafriel]

Why don't I see anyone mentioning the more than possible Tsunade VS Pain? She's the sole survivor of the legendary sannin, she's got beef with Pain and it's her duty to smite him...plus she's got good chakra control, being a medical master and all, so Pain's insane-eyes-distortion thingy shouldn't work on her, and she can smash them one by one with a fist.

[iBeast]

Originally Posted by CoreyPmc1

"Jiraiya is the most skilled member of the Legendary Sannin according to the Third Data Book."

Also:
Total Stats
Tsunade: 35
Orochimaru: 35
Jiraiya:35.5

Are you taking that seriously? First of all, look at how overrated Tsunade is...she's pretty weak to be considered in the same category as Oro and Jiraiya...and even then Oro is decades above Jiraiya. Go watch the search for Tsunade arc again...Oro with no arms dominating Jiraiya and Tsunade.

According to the data book Kakashi is both stronger than Sasuke and Naruto while being on par with Itachi

[james0246]

Please stop discussing data book entries in an Anime-Only thread. But, as a quick word of advice, the data books stats do not adequetly take into account power-ups and power boosts, so Senjutsu, Infūin: Kai/Chakra enhanced strength, and Yamata no Jutsu are not represented in the various stats. Additionally, adding up the stats is foolish and presents no real information...

That being said, Jiraiya has 30+ techniques to his name. Orochimaru has 26. and Tsunade has 11. So, just based on what was shown to the audience (I'm using the total number of techniques shown in the anime and manga for all of the characters), Jiraiya has far more techniques and abilities. Jiraiya has also shown the use of 2 elements (in the anime and manga), whereas 1 of Orochimaru's 2 elements is anime only (Oro-chan has only shown Wind in the manga), and Tsunade has only shown one elemental technique.

Additionally, in regards to a Orochimaru v. Pain discussion...well how about we let Pain speak for him/itself over the next couple of episodes, then you can decide for yourself whether Oro-chan could have actually stood up to a full on Pain Gangbang.

---

Edit:
So which bad/awful anime should I choose for the lowest category next time? Duel Masters maybe? Beyblade? Samurai Gun?

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by james

Jiraiya has far more techniques and abilities.

Again, where is this shown? Both are dead so they won't be showing anymore anytime soon...If Jaraiya has a 1000 techniques and Oro only has 5...What's better, a 1000 techniques that don't do $hit or 5 techniques that pwn hard?? There shouldn't even be a debate on who is stronger between Oro and Jaraiya IMO (Especially in a vs. Pain scenario) I know Oro has some sick shit beyond hair-needles and puppets on his shoulders...I'm not even an Oro fanboy either, it's just like duh, to me...

[james0246]

Spoiler for Jiraiya's Techniques shown in the series...:

Barrier: Dome Method Formation - B
Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison - B
Chakra-Suppressing Seal - Supplementary
Earth Release: Swamp of the Underworld - A
Finger Engraving Seal - C
Fire Release: Big Flame Bullet - B
Fire Release: Dragon Fire Technique - C
Fire Release: Flame Bullet - C
Fire Release: Toad Oil Flame Bullet - B
Fire Sealing Method - B
Five Elements Unseal - A
Frog Conversion Technique - C
Hiding in a Toad Technique - C
Needle Jizō - B
Rasengan - A
Sage Art: Goemon - Unranked, but S-Rank in effect
Sage Art: Hair Needle Barrage - Unranked, but S-Rank in effect
Sage Mode - Unranked, but S-Rank in effect
Shadow Clone Technique - B
Summoning Technique (Toads) - C
Summoning: Crushing Toad Stomach (Anime only) - Unranked, but A-Rank in effect
Summoning: Food Cart Destroyer Technique - B
Summoning: Toad Mouth Bind - A
Summoning: Toad Shop Technique - B
Super Great Ball Rasengan - Unranked, but S-Rank in effect
Toad Flat - Shadow Manipulation Technique - B
Toad Oil Bullet - C
Transparent Escape Technique - Unranked, but D-Rank in effect
Twin Rasengan - Unranked, but A-rank in effect
Wild Lion's Mane Technique - B

Spoiler for Orochimaru's Techniques shown in the series:

Body Flame Technique - Unranked, but probably D-rank
Body Shedding - Unranked, but probably A-rank in effect
Casualty Puppet (Anime only) - Unranked, but probably B-rank in effect
Earth Clone Technique (Anime only) - Unranked, but probably C-rank in effect
Eight Branches Technique - S
Five Elements Seal - A
Gathering of the Snakes - Unranked, but probably B-rank in effect
Hidden Shadow Snake Hands - C
Kusanagi Sword: Long Sword of the Heavens - B
Leech All Creation: Attack Prevention Technique - Supplementary
Living Corpse Reincarnation - S
Many Hidden Shadow Snake Hands - B
Myriad Snake Net Formation - B
Orochimaru's Juinjutsu - A
Shadow Clone Technique (Manga only) - B
Slithering Snake Mode - Supplementary
Snake Authority Spell - C
Soft Physique Modification - Supplementary
Summoning Technique (Snakes) - C
Summoning: Impure World Resurrection - S
Summoning: Rashōmon - B
Summoning: Triple Rashōmon - A
Temporary Paralysis Technique - D
Twin Snakes Mutual Death - A
Vanishing Facial Copy Technique - B
Wind Release: Great Breakthrough - C

Just adding up what was shown, Jiraiya (at 30 techniques) has shown more than Orochimaru (at 26), and Jiraiya has shown a greater variety (both in terms of rank and type). But, Orochimaru does have more S-Rank techniques under his belt (then again, it was Jiraiya who said that a shinobi with a few mastered techniques is greater than a Shinobi with multiple S-rank techniques...). Honestly, there is no way to show or even really say that one is more powerful than the other. They were both Kage Level fighters more or less equal to each.

At the end of the day, both characters are nothing compared to Pain. Again, wait a few more episodes before you start trying to label anyone as being equal or greater than the Pain Brigade.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by james0246

Spoiler for Jiraiya's Techniques shown in the series...:

Barrier: Dome Method Formation - B
Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison - B
Chakra-Suppressing Seal - Supplementary
Earth Release: Swamp of the Underworld - A
Finger Engraving Seal - C
Fire Release: Big Flame Bullet - B
Fire Release: Dragon Fire Technique - C
Fire Release: Flame Bullet - C
Fire Release: Toad Oil Flame Bullet - B
Fire Sealing Method - B
Five Elements Unseal - A
Frog Conversion Technique - C
Hiding in a Toad Technique - C
Needle Jizō - B
Rasengan - A
Sage Art: Goemon - Unranked, but S-Rank in effect
Sage Art: Hair Needle Barrage - Unranked, but S-Rank in effect
Sage Mode - Unranked, but S-Rank in effect
Shadow Clone Technique - B
Summoning Technique (Toads) - C
Summoning: Crushing Toad Stomach (Anime only) - Unranked, but A-Rank in effect
Summoning: Food Cart Destroyer Technique - B
Summoning: Toad Mouth Bind - A
Summoning: Toad Shop Technique - B
Super Great Ball Rasengan - Unranked, but S-Rank in effect
Toad Flat - Shadow Manipulation Technique - B
Toad Oil Bullet - C
Transparent Escape Technique - Unranked, but D-Rank in effect
Twin Rasengan - Unranked, but A-rank in effect
Wild Lion's Mane Technique - B

Spoiler for Orochimaru's Techniques shown in the series:

Body Flame Technique - Unranked, but probably D-rank
Body Shedding - Unranked, but probably A-rank in effect
Casualty Puppet (Anime only) - Unranked, but probably B-rank in effect
Earth Clone Technique (Anime only) - Unranked, but probably C-rank in effect
Eight Branches Technique - S
Five Elements Seal - A
Gathering of the Snakes - Unranked, but probably B-rank in effect
Hidden Shadow Snake Hands - C
Kusanagi Sword: Long Sword of the Heavens - B
Leech All Creation: Attack Prevention Technique - Supplementary
Living Corpse Reincarnation - S
Many Hidden Shadow Snake Hands - B
Myriad Snake Net Formation - B
Orochimaru's Juinjutsu - A
Shadow Clone Technique (Manga only) - B
Slithering Snake Mode - Supplementary
Snake Authority Spell - C
Soft Physique Modification - Supplementary
Summoning Technique (Snakes) - C
Summoning: Impure World Resurrection - S
Summoning: Rashōmon - B
Summoning: Triple Rashōmon - A
Temporary Paralysis Technique - D
Twin Snakes Mutual Death - A
Vanishing Facial Copy Technique - B
Wind Release: Great Breakthrough - C

Just adding up what was shown, Jiraiya (at 30 techniques) has shown more than Orochimaru (at 26), and Jiraiya has shown a greater variety (both in terms of rank and type). But, Orochimaru does have more S-Rank techniques under his belt (then again, it was Jiraiya who said that a shinobi with a few mastered techniques is greater than a Shinobi with multiple S-rank techniques...). Honestly, there is no way to show or even really say that one is more powerful than the other. They were both Kage Level fighters more or less equal to each.

At the end of the day, both characters are nothing compared to Pain. Again, wait a few more episodes before you start trying to label anyone as being equal or greater than the Pain Brigade.

Look man, you just know cause you know...Think of me being the you who was at this point in the manga having this discussion...Even if the next few episodes blow my theories out of the water it won't be because I didn't think this through properly...You have the advantage of actually knowing the outcome, at a point in time you didn't...From THAT POINT my argument stands that Oro would have a better chance dealing with Pain based on what the anime has shown of both fighters abilities and most importantly their mentalities...

From what we've been shown, it seems to me that Oro has a bevy of lethal and ominous S-class techniques (so why wouldn't he have more if he could prepare to fight Pain?)...His techniques (atleast to me) have exhibited better range and defensive abilities throughout the coarse of the show...He's a better tactician and far better spam-fighter than Jaraiya has ever been shown to be...He basically owned 2 Sannin's with no arms and it took the #1 hidden item on the show to ultimately defeat him...If he had been confused by Pain's abilities he would have dipped snake-style to generate a better plan instead of going back for throat surgery IMO... In any event I thought it was vividly expressed in the anime that Oro was the special one who went bad and was always stronger than Jairaya...

When I think about Oro (other than the child-molesting^^) I think of a $hitload of different techniques, most of which names i don't even remember there are so many...When i think of Jaraiya I think: Hair needles, Frog Summoning, Rasengan...I'm using my noggin here...I just think Oro's getting a raw deal just because he can't f*ck with Sharingan...No one else has really been in his area code minus Uchiha and Galaxy-spitting Growlruto...

[james0246]

^My words were not meant to reflect any special knowledge (gained from only reading the manga). Rather, I am emphasizing that the super cereal techniques won't come out until Naruto arrives (something any Shounen Fan could have told you...in fact, you've already mentioned soemthing similar several times ), so, obviously, Pain will start showing something extra fantastic when he starts fighting Naruto

That being said, let's break it down. Yamata no Orochi (the bigg ass 8-Headed White Snake) gets owned by Summoner Pain with relative ease. Edo Tensei gets owned by the Pain Body that sucks out souls. Etc. Orochimaru is a mutt compared to the pedigree of Pain, so please cut the BS. Naruto is going to be the only one with the power to stop Pain and that's probably only going to be because of some silly unrealistic plot device.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Also, the anime has yet to mention the "Paths" of Pain (IIRC), so I'm finding that sorta hard to follow, not that I think it's a true spoiler, but if they plan to have a scene explaining it all I would have rather not known this...Too douchebaggy of me to find fault with this? Monir?

Didn't it? The 6 paths of Pain was the way they presented themselves during their first apparition right before they killed Jiraiya and unless I'm mistaken it was mentionned again (maybe translated as Realms this time?) before Pain started his invasion when he told Konan which ones would make a diversion and which ones would search for Naruto.
There is not much into it, the names are simply based on the six realms of Buddhist cosmology like most things related to the Rinnegan.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by iBeast

Are you taking that seriously? First of all, look at how overrated Tsunade is...she's pretty weak to be considered in the same category as Oro and Jiraiya...

I agree that Tsunade is definitely the weakest in battle. But she is the best medical ninja, and that's very important. So if she heals a lethally injured ninja, for example Naruto, then we can also count Naruto's later achievemnts as her achivments since he would be dead if she's not there to save his life. What would Sasuke be able to do against KillerBee without his healers? Sasuke would be able to die fast, and that's it.

Originally Posted by iBeast

and even then Oro is decades above Jiraiya. Go watch the search for Tsunade arc again...Oro with no arms dominating Jiraiya and Tsunade.

You should know that the plot required a Tsunade vs Orochi battle, where Tsunade shows her ability and will to become hokage. That's why Jiraiya didn't use sage mode. Sage mode is like super-saiyan mode in DBZ, the powerup that it gives is huge. If you want to compare Naruto with Sage-Naruto just wait some more episodes and you'll be surprised. But look at the facts: Jiraiya using sage mode was able to kill one of the 6 pains while he had only one arm (Pain cut his left arm after Jiraiya killed 3 pains and they came back from death). In sage mode even a mediocre jutsu/ability turns into kage level. So while Jiraiya was weaker than Orochimaru, but i'm sure in sage mode he was stronger.

[Hunter]

He didn't use Sage-mode because he had been drugged by Tsunade and couldn't mold his chakra properly, all the Sannin were handicapped in this battle.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

He didn't use Sage-mode because he had been drugged by Tsunade and couldn't mold his chakra properly, all the Sannin were handicapped in this battle.

That's why there is no real point in using it as a means of comparison between the Sannin (there is no way of knowing just how fucked up the characters were, so there is no way to really know hiw much stronger or weaker the characters were)...

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

That's why there is no real point in using it as a means of comparison between the Sannin (there is no way of knowing just how fucked up the characters were, so there is no way to really know hiw much stronger or weaker the characters were)...

I guess that's true for Orochimaru too, in his fight against the old Sarutobi it did seem to me that he was not giving his 100%. He was playing around with his arrogant style, while the 2 kage-puppets did the work, then he didn't do anything to stop the death god jutsu thinking that Sarutobi can do no harm to him. After that he didn't have his arms to make jutsu, then he was closed into a weak and unprepared body for 3 years. And finally Itachi didn't even give him any chance to show his abilities, he mindraped Orochimaru so fast both times that it made Orochi look like a weakling.

BTW i think both Orochi vs Itachi fights are all-time fighting world records: the quickest beating of a kage level opponent

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by james0246

That's why there is no real point in using it as a means of comparison between the Sannin (there is no way of knowing just how fucked up the characters were, so there is no way to really know hiw much stronger or weaker the characters were)...

Doesn't mean we can't have a fun hypothetical discussion on it...Stifle conversation much?

Originally Posted by james0246

^My words were not meant to reflect any special knowledge (gained from only reading the manga). Rather, I am emphasizing that the super cereal techniques won't come out until Naruto arrives (something any Shounen Fan could have told you...in fact, you've already mentioned soemthing similar several times ), so, obviously, Pain will start showing something extra fantastic when he starts fighting Naruto

That being said, let's break it down. Yamata no Orochi (the bigg ass 8-Headed White Snake) gets owned by Summoner Pain with relative ease. Edo Tensei gets owned by the Pain Body that sucks out souls. Etc. Orochimaru is a mutt compared to the pedigree of Pain, so please cut the BS. Naruto is going to be the only one with the power to stop Pain and that's probably only going to be because of some silly unrealistic plot device.

Dude, you're telling my my opinion is gonna be $hit once more of Pain's abilities are shown, i'm just saying the only way you could be that confident is because you already know the outcome, but not-knowing the outcome gives me my confidence (Argumentatively)...
I just don't like when people who've read the manga act like we're not in the same boat..I'm figuring this $hit out like you did 2 years ago...I don't have to wait 5 more episodes to have a fun and knowledgeable discussion on who would be a better matchup for Pain between Oro and Jaraiya...Did I say he'd win? I said he'd fair better than Jaraiya did because I believe he has shown more evidence throughout the anime on this...

I don't think calling Oro a mutt compared to Pain is fair given Oro's status as the truest villain the show has ever presented...5 months ago Pain was a flickering image standing on stone-finger, now Oro is a mutt in comparison? Sorry I don't jump ship that easily, and as rawsome as Pain is, and i admit he's a beast, his power is slowly but surely moving into the realm of ghey...Good ghey, but ghey all the same...

Naruto is going to beat Pain because he's the shonen character of legend...And hax will be involved as it has been in every main character beating the main villain shonen showdown ever conceived...I've got no beef with that, I welcome it...

Originally Posted by Hunter

Didn't it? The 6 paths of Pain was the way they presented themselves during their first apparition right before they killed Jiraiya and unless I'm mistaken it was mentionned again (maybe translated as Realms this time?) before Pain started his invasion when he told Konan which ones would make a diversion and which ones would search for Naruto.
There is not much into it, the names are simply based on the six realms of Buddhist cosmology like most things related to the Rinnegan.

I just had never heard the names of each path and would have like to find that out by seeing it presented, but no harm, no foul I suppose...

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

I just had never heard the names of each path and would have like to find that out by seeing it presented, but no harm, no foul I suppose...

Well yes you did, as I said they were given 2 episodes ago, it's possible they weren't translated though, you could know them as Shurado, Chikushodo, Gakido, Tendo, Ningendo and Jigokudo instead of Asura, Animal, Preta/Hungry Ghost, Deva/God, Human and Hell Realms/Paths.

Anyhow as far as the Orochimaru/Jiraiya discussion, I agree with you that Oro would last longer but not particulary because he's supposed to be better than Jiraiya (I think they were about equal). He would last longer because he was a whole lot harder to kill for good.

[wingdarkness]

^Yep, it was the latter translation...My badd on that then...I didn't know what the hell Ningendo meant when i saw it...

Originally Posted by Hunter

Anyhow as far as the Orochimaru/Jiraiya discussion, I agree with you that Oro would last longer but not particulary because he's supposed to be better than Jiraiya (I think they were about equal). He would last longer because he was a whole lot harder to kill for good.

Well not dying is half the battle i'd say^^...

[james0246]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Doesn't mean we can't have a fun hypothetical discussion on it...Stifle conversation much?

Dude, come on, you can't just indict me without also signaling Hunter as well .


But, if you like, you think Orochi owned the 2 other Sannin even when he had no arms. So, my argument will be that Tsunade's poison took away 90% of Jiraiya's strength. Because of that, he actually had the best showing, considering he could hardly use any of his techniques. Prove me wrong...wait, you can't. Why? Because we have no idea what the strengths of the Sannin were at that specific moment. If we have no idea what their strength was at that moment, then we can't make any real comparison, so the discussion will essentially become a fan contest only.

Sorry if that is too "stifling" for you (I didn't know that I was Archie ...), so I'll try not to bring up my dissent in the future ...

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Dude, you're telling my my opinion is gonna be $hit once more of Pain's abilities are shown, i'm just saying the only way you could be that confident is because you already know the outcome, but not-knowing the outcome gives me my confidence (Argumentatively)...

Dude (), I'm telling you what you already know. When a Leveled Up Shounen character goes to fight the Big Bad for the Final Showdown, new shit (i.e. new techniques) will be shown. I am not giving away anything that anyone with any knowledge of various Shounen works would not know. Pain will obviously show some new fucked up technique. What it is? Who knows. But it will make us all slightly soil our pants…probably.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

I said he'd fair better than Jaraiya did because I believe he has shown more evidence throughout the anime on this...

And I proved you wrong . Oro-kun would be beaten the same as or worse than Jiraiya...

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

I don't think calling Oro a mutt compared to Pain is fair given Oro's status as the truest villain the show has ever presented...5 months ago Pain was a flickering image standing on stone-finger, now Oro is a mutt in comparison? Sorry I don't jump ship that easily, and as rawsome as Pain is, and i admit he's a beast, his power is slowly but surely moving into the realm of ghey...Good ghey, but ghey all the same...

Agreed. Orochimaru is one of the truest Evil characters in the series...but he's no Pain (not that Pain is necessarily as Evil as Rochi-kun). The dude's name is Pain...you don't get that moniker unless you are tough shit that throws down greater than the greatest. My boy (boys?) Pain not only fucked Hanzou (the guy that tied and created the Legendary Sannin), but he supposedly did it with one body! But, before that he/they killed every single person related to Hanzou in any way. Pain is hardcore.

Could Orochimaru have killed at least 3 bodies? Maybe. Jiraiya did have a nifty genjutsu that worked on several bodies at once afterall (something we do not know if Orochimaru possessed), but Orochimaru is also really hard to keep dead(which is why I like to call him Rochi-kun sometimes), but one good soul suck should take care of that little problem. Whatever the case, and to piss off MidnightViper88, Asura would fall first .