(L) Monogatari Series Light Novel discussion

[Altima of the Gates]

But then Kizu happened and Hanekawa voluntarily helped him for "no" reason. Hence why he constantly empathized how she saved him even though he was actually the one literally saving her life back then.

As Shikijin said, Hanekawa became his friend before the incidents and tells him flat out, "I'm not the saint you think I am, I am doing this because you're interesting and I'm interested. This was kind of why people get bad character analysis about her, because they equate it to Twilight. She tells us why she liked him in Neko White, because he desperately helped people while being this kind of pathetic person on the inside ("I fell in love with the crybaby Araragi-kun, because I have never cried before."). And she was the one who talked him out of suicide, so she does deserve some of the credit for that.

Hitagi is simply difficult to write properly in a story. She seems to have no particular flaw to exploit, so the only thing connecting her to the overall picture is her connection with Kaiki.

It was told with her privately with Hanekawa and Araragi she still, even now, blames herself for what happened with her mother and has several issues with self-esteem once you get past her initial personality, despite the support she gets from her dad and Araragi. That would have been great to work with, but unfortunately, Hitagi has gotten such a reputation for being this indomitable person whose flaws end up not being flaws that it's made hard to explore. He tried with Koi through Kaiki, but kind of stopped along the way for some odd reason. How she couldn't just tell Araragi to stop throwing himself at Nadeko in particular, as if she was afraid ("if I was that kind of woman my life wouldn't have ended up like this."). He should explore that more, and humanize her character like he did in Neko White (it was criminal not to show the part with her father in the epilogue imho).

[mugimugi]

The is no "before the incidents". Kizu starts, Araragi looks at her, pantsu flash, they walk together and talk about vampires. He meets Kisshot. Turns into a vampire, Hanekawa finds out. Maybe his reputation in school adds to that but...eh
They weren't friends before and she wasn't involved with him or responsible for any of it, though she decides to help him, because as you said she's just interested in him. There's so little she knew about him before and after the turned into a vampire that this counts as having no real reason other than attraction.
This is slightly going off track, I initially did the rundown of their early relationship and those events to describe their Araragi's views on her. Because Araragi (or Nisio) did a bad job on doing that during the Kizu-Bake timeline. Referring to the whole he says he loves her but hates her stuff.
From his point of view, he was saved by her and I think it was even foreshadowing that early in Kizu. Though just from the events happenig, it's not that evident since he was the one literally saving her. She did "save" him because of his state of mind back then. (And this is where my argument with Shikijin started). But then just shortly after with the events of Neko Black, the ugly side her behavior was revealed, and that's what he was referring to when he said she also disgusts him, or whatever he said but then he keeps her a "his Hanekawa" later. And Neko Black did a really confusing and awkward job at describing how he feels towards her.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by mugimugi

The is no "before the incidents". Kizu starts, Araragi looks at her, pantsu flash, they walk together and talk about vampires. He meets Kisshot. Turns into a vampire, Hanekawa finds out.
They weren't friends before

Hanekawa befriended him the first time they met, at least in her mind. She added her number on his phone.

There's so little she knew about him before and after the turned into a vampire

Mind that Senjougahara already knew about the Fire Sisters back in Hitagi Crab. Hanekawa being Hanekawa she possibly knew even more. Apparently according to the setting Araragi was some sort of celebrity, it was just his selfloathing and his low esteem that made him think he was unpopular.

From his point of view, he was saved by her and I think it was even foreshadowing that early in Kizu. Though just from the events happenig, it's not that evident since he was the one literally saving her. She did "save" him because of his state of mind back then. (And this is where my argument with Shikijin started).

I didn't think it was an actual argument, nor I was denying anything specific. I just felt I had to provide some cultural context. You just have to downplay yourself in Japan.

By the way, in Japanese the verb "tasukeru" is the one translated to either "save" or "help". It's the same verb, used for both small and big favors.

But then just shortly after with the events of Neko Black, the ugly side her behavior was revealed, and that's what he was referring to when he said she also disgusts him, or whatever he said but then he keeps her a "his Hanekawa" later. And Neko Black did a really confusing and awkward job at describing how he feels towards her.

Kind of agree, but then again nothing could have worked really well. You can't just simply ditch Hanekawa.

[mugimugi]

I think my definition of friendship was that they had to establish a proper relationship first to call it like that when I wrote all this. Or at least spend a bit more time together.
I don't remember when or if it's even true but I think it was mentioned that Hanekawa heard about Araragi before they met. Or at least it was mentioned that he gained a reputation when not attending to school, which she should have known about.
Then he befriends Hanekawa, starts dating Hitagi both rather "famous", Kanbaru starts spreading rumors about him and some people know him as the big brother of the Fire Sisters.
A legend was born.

Actually, now that we learned about pretty much everything about him, it's understandable that he values his friends so much and is so self-sacrificial about it. It's not just that he gained these traits after Kizu, the fact that the Sodachi thing had such an effect on him is probably a good indicator that he was always that "good guy". But I would have liked seeing his relationship with a male friend in the series. A lot of his personality or actions look like chivalry towards women (though he has other sometimes ulterior motives and maybe also depression?), I wonder how he would have acted with a male friend.

I usually don't really care too much about speculating about these characters and just accept it (though I like discussing it).
But I get asked sometimes what I think about his perversions or his pedo tendencies. Like is he's a pervert/lolicon? Is it running gag because of the self-referential writing? Has Araragi good intentions (like with Mayoi) or is it meant as a joke by him, the author or both? Or just the author's own interests? I think a lot of that doesn't matter too much or can be explained by observing his character, context, the writing itself and Nisio as a author. Or maybe it doesn't need or can't be explained. But the one thing I didn't really figure out was his line in Neko when gets the sword and says his reason is that he thinks Hanekawa is hot before he leaves.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by mugimugi

I think my definition of friendship was that they had to establish a proper relationship first to call it like that when I wrote all this. Or at least spend a bit more time together.

That's why Hanekawa is more like one of those generals of the past, like those in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Once she makes up her mind that's it.

But I get asked sometimes what I think about his perversions or his pedo tendencies. Like is he's a pervert/lolicon? Is it running gag because of the self-referential writing? Has Araragi good intentions (like with Mayoi) or is it meant as a joke by him, the author or both? Or just the author's own interests? I think a lot of that doesn't matter too much or can be explained by observing his character, context, the writing itself and Nisio as a author. Or maybe it doesn't need or can't be explained.

Yes, he does say it's all a joke. Though the line often gets blurred, he doesn't actually have much interest in loli bodies. That's why the only other one who had girlfriend potential for him was Hanekawa, and yet he never touched her with a finger, because in the end he is faithful to Senjougahara.

But the one thing I didn't really figure out was his line in Neko when gets the sword and says his reason is that he thinks Hanekawa is hot before he leaves.

(The original Japanese word was "moe" instead of hot)

That was just him spouting cool lines. But so what if he finds her hot? Even Senjougahara finds Hanekawa hot

[Kreion]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Anyway, admittedly it is hard to understand why Araragi didn't date Hanekawa. Much like in the real world, it's just the kind of thing that simply happens.
I don't think that's really the case, considering also the fact that Hitagi barely appears in the novels. In fact I am baffled by the dimension of her fanbase compared to her overall presence in the story.

Hitagi is simply difficult to write properly in a story. She seems to have no particular flaw to exploit, so the only thing connecting her to the overall picture is her connection with Kaiki.

Yes, Kaiki was her lover, but the two probably never even kissed or even held hands together. It was all a thing in their heads made overdramatic for entertainment purpose.

I don't think it's hard to understand why Araragi didn't date Hanekawa really...he never makes any sort of move towards her. It's safe to assume that pre-kizu Araragi was a 'good' person - at least the kind of person that wouldn't start a relationship based solely on lust. He has little/no experience with 'love' - to the extend that he has to go to Tsuhiki for advice - but he recognizes that he doesn't love her as much as he finds her attractive.

Which isn't surprising as practically every character who meets her thinks she is...Kizu splits time between Hanekawa, Kiss-shot and Oshino, out of those characters she's the one whose most openly on 'his' side. Yet the two of them don't talk about much of importance in the book, a lot of their discussion comes back to his situation etc. It's only in Neko that he starts to get to know her personally and starts to understand what his emotions are.

But as you've discussed he has a pretty complex relationship her for the entire series.

As for Koi...the Kaiki/Hitagi thing always seems to be a joke that's thrown around more than an actual thing. Though as you said it's entirely possible that there was some...connection between the two of them, but I wouldn't call them lovers considering nothing ever actually happened.

He's more like what-if scenario for the most part...

[Altima of the Gates]

(The original Japanese word was "moe" instead of hot)

That was just him spouting cool lines. But so what if he finds her hot? Even Senjougahara finds Hanekawa hot

Plus, and the important part to emphasize was that he was trying to sound cool while choking back tears, but the anime didn't emphasize that part.

Aarargi is abnormal, remember the last part of Neko Black where he and Hanekawa talk? He blatantly is relying on her more than he seems to(which is part of the reason for the stress), and during their last talk, one of the big bursts of emotion he has was saying, "if you turn delinquient, what am I supposed to do?!". People tend to forget these little details that give more complexity to the character's actions, thoughts, and feelings.

As for Kizu, mugimugi, she really helped more than his state of mind, she trained him to use his abilities more than Kisshot did and told him how to beat Episode. Oshino was just salty she was the big reason why his plan worked, beyond her strangeness.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Kreion

I don't think it's hard to understand why Araragi didn't date Hanekawa really...he never makes any sort of move towards her.

He didn't exactly make any sort of move toward anyone. In the end it was the girl that had to do the work. And it's not like Hanekawa wasn't trying to "fish" him... she made him deputy class rep for a reason. She was subtly shaping him up.

but he recognizes that he doesn't love her as much as he finds her attractive.

I wish you could give Araragi more credit. He was willing to die for Hanekawa's sake. He cared that deeply for her. Lust seems to be just a comic outlet for his feelings.

Originally Posted by FelynxTiger

There should be a japanese course called "Learning japanese to be able to read the monogatari novels" then everyone would be happy

That's what I did. I taught myself Japanese exactly to read the Monogatari series. Resources are everywhere on internet. You don't even need to learn the kanji at first, softwares translate them for you. It takes a bit of practice because Japanese as a language is very different from Western languages, plus Nisio can be a bit hard at times, but it's doable.

[mugimugi]

Yes I understand "moe" losely as being attracted to someone or something because of certain traits. In Hanekawa's case, I would think she's hot as well.
Also did he? I think he called her moe before the last line, then he poses and says the last line before the chapter ends.

What I didn't understand was the purpose of saying that, considering he was talking to Meme. Like, was he literal? Was it because what he found out about her recently?
Considering that he mentioned striking a pose, I get that he was trying to look cool, but that line certainly doesn't help in my opinion... It's just weird to write a line like that in that specific moment and context. But that whole scene was weird to be honest, like when he can't listen to what Meme says about Hanekawa anymore and gets angry or frustrated.

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

As for Kizu, mugimugi, she really helped more than his state of mind, she trained him to use his abilities more than Kisshot did and told him how to beat Episode. Oshino was just salty she was the big reason why his plan worked, beyond her strangeness.

I think that's what helped his state of mind. I can't say if Nisio had the scenario already worked out with Sodachi, or at least and idea as for why Araragi was depressed. But we can tell that he lost faith or trust in people and relationships or whatever. So her helping him out and sticking with him during that crisis even though she had no proper reason to was what had an effect on him, I guess. But I also don't think that point was too much a thing back then considering it was the 2nd story and possibly the last.

Originally Posted by Shikijin

That's what I did. I taught myself Japanese exactly to read the Monogatari series. Resources are everywhere on internet. You don't even need to learn the kanji at first, softwares translate them for you. It takes a bit of practice because Japanese as a language is very different from Western languages, plus Nisio can be a bit hard at times, but it's doable.

When did you start? I never practiced reading or writing, I was only able to listen to it. Monogatari still gives me hard times, so I often just gloss over the sentences and fill in subconsciously what I missed thanks to context. I still have to stop and look up stuff all the time.

Also I have the full Zoku raws now (feels bad though, I want the actual book...). But that person who did the latest detailed summaries for the short stories and Owari I think will probably long done writing one for Zoku before I even finish the book.

[Rost-Light]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

He didn't exactly make any sort of move toward anyone. In the end it was the girl that had to do the work. And it's not like Hanekawa wasn't trying to "fish" him... she made him deputy class rep for a reason. She was subtly shaping him up.

I have to disagree about "any" in your statement. Yes, may be he didn't take concrete actions and "Hitagi strikes first!", but I can't say that he didn't want to.
The next day, after the first conversation with Hitagi, he climbed to the roof of the school on a steep wall - not only because "I want to fulfill the request of my friend" - when you read about his thoughts it is became obvious that he wanted to impress her.

And there is one of my favourite moments in the Mayoi Snail, when Koyomi thinks about resolving little girl's problem as soon as possible to spend all day with Hitagi:

" I can treat her to lunch, and go shopping with her. If there is still time after that, we can go somewhere else for fun. Yeah, that should work. Thanks to my sisters, I can’t just go home, so I can spend the day attending to Senjougahara. Luckily, I have plenty of money on me, so-…Wait, why am I so intent on doing things for her!?".

This thoughts are still new for him, but it's obvious that he are already moved by Hitagi. "-wait, why does it look like I'm becoming unable to part with Senjougahara's poison now? " and so on. He had no time to do anything because Hitagi confess to him almost immediatly, but if she doesn't it wasn't impossible that Koyomi would take a step forward. He was ready for this.

And Araragi said that he asked her out in a date many times before she brought him under starry sky, but was rejected.
It is not fair to say that Hitagi made their relationship alone. She took initiative but Koyomi already had some intentions about her

I wish you could give Araragi more credit. He was willing to die for Hanekawa's sake. He cared that deeply for her. Lust seems to be just a comic outlet for his feelings.

Yeah, he was ready to die for her sake. But Hanekawa did not need it. She needed him living with her. But Araragi prefer to die for her sake then live for her sake. After he found out her true personality he was very afraid of her.

"Cats frighten me.
And -- Hanekawa is equally as frightening. "

This is not clearly connected to your dispute. And I don't think that Araragi's feelings toward Hanekawa are based on lust - it is stupid - he has complex feelings but they are not resolved in the form of love

But I just find this moment interesting and I want to change topic a bit. Koyomi starts in Kizu without any motivation to live, then in Neko Black he is still not ready to live - he prefers to die, and only after meeting with Hitagi... No, it's starts earlier, but it is important factor. And I still want to see the result of this development in Zokuwari. If Nisio abandoned this theme in the "final" novel I will be very depressed.

Originally Posted by mugimugi

What I didn't understand was the purpose of saying that, considering he was talking to Meme. Like, was he literal? Was it because what he found out about her recently?
Considering that he mentioned striking a pose, I get that he was trying to look cool, but that line certainly doesn't help in my opinion... It's just weird to write a line like that in that specific moment and context. But that whole scene was weird to be honest, like when he can't listen to what Meme says about Hanekawa anymore and gets angry or frustrated.

Why weird? Hanekawa is his ideal, even after Neko Black even after Neko White. And Oshino said very unpleasant things about her. And this things are true, and moreover Araragi already realized most of them himself. When you know something like that - it is already painful but when you listening about it from someone else - it's completely different. And moreover - Oshino asked Araragi one vexing question. As always Oshino already knew the true answer but Araragi still tried to hide his emotions behind this "cool" phrase. As for me it's only natural.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by mugimugi

When did you start? I never practiced reading or writing, I was only able to listen to it. Monogatari still gives me hard times, so I often just gloss over the sentences and fill in subconsciously what I missed thanks to context. I still have to stop and look up stuff all the time.

I don't remember the year but the first book I tried was Nisemonogatari. Neko had yet to come out. Writing would help remembering the kanji, but for me it was enough just being able to read, with an OCR program that would save me from looking up every kanji.

Nisio admittedly is not an easy start, but it's like a crash course, you'll learn a lot of things about Japanese in a short time.

Originally Posted by Rost-Light

I have to disagree about "any" in your statement. Yes, may be he didn't take concrete actions and "Hitagi strikes first!", but I can't say that he didn't want to.

Well, when I actually read the first story, he sounded more considerate toward Hitagi than even the anime made him to be. Then again it's partly a matter of narration style, I guess. When you can read his thoughts it adds a new dimension to the character.

Obviously it's not like Araragi could have had some real resistance toward Hitagi. I just wouldn't say his behaviour could be considered specifically "seductive", more like simply "chivalrous".

The next day, after the first conversation with Hitagi, he climbed to the roof of the school on a steep wall - not only because "I want to fulfill the request of my friend" - when you read about his thoughts it is became obvious that he wanted to impress her.

Sorry, but I don't even remember the scene after all these years. It sounds so surreal that it was probably metaphorical though.

Yeah, he was ready to die for her sake. But Hanekawa did not need it. She needed him living with her. But Araragi prefer to die for her sake then live for her sake.

At the time Araragi didn't really know that Hanekawa loved him. That's why he was shocked to hear that in Tsubasa Cat.

More in general, Araragi believed to be unlovable at first.

After he found out her true personality he was very afraid of her.

"Cats frighten me.
And -- Hanekawa is equally as frightening. "

He also found Senjougahara scary sometimes, like with the ballpoint pen incident, or when he was abducted. It's no big deal. Every girl in Monogatari got her scary moments.

[Rost-Light]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Well, when I actually read the first story, he sounded more considerate toward Hitagi than even the anime made him to be. Then again it's partly a matter of narration style, I guess. When you can read his thoughts it adds a new dimension to the character.

That's right. Anime version makes even Gahara-fun as myself doubts about Koyomi's feelings toward her up to the moment when Koyomi refuse to die for Hanekawa sake on the roof, because he remembered about Senjougahara. This moment convinced me, even if it was in the form "because if I die, Hitagi will kill Hanekawa". I wonder if I ever read this scene in the novel. I think that his thoughts at this moment are very important but all that I have is just a "flashback" in the anime version. I guess in the novel this scene is more detailed.

And because the lack of this moments many people end up believing that Koyomi has no feelings toward Hitagi at all. It's pretty sad for me.

Obviously it's not like Araragi could have had some real resistance toward Hitagi. I just wouldn't say his behaviour could be considered specifically "seductive", more like simply "chivalrous".

May be, but I still think that it is not necessarily to behave yourself seductively to become closer with girl. Sometimes "chivalrous" way works too.
But I think it is only matter of point of view and different experiance. By Araragi's behaiver and thoughts I consider him more motivated towards Hitagi and you don't. It's natural. I accept your points, thanks.

Sorry, but I don't even remember the scene after all these years. It sounds so surreal that it was probably metaphorical though.

Years? I guess you just didn't read Koyomi Flower from Koyomimonogatari yet.

Spoiler for quote:

"But Naoetsu High’s rooftops were restricted, and average students were prohibited from entering. The door to the rooftop was locked, so, far from an average student, a below-average student like me would normally have no chance of entering.

Then, if you wanted to know how I trespassed onto the rooftop, then what I did was—I climbed up the outer walls of the buildings from a window on the top floor.

If my hands had slipped even a little bit it would have meant instant death.

As for why I would go to such an extent for the sake of a girl I had met just two days ago, even I couldn’t really understand, but it’s possible that I had actually just been hungry to fulfill a ‘request from a friend’."

But I mixed up the date of event. It was not "next day" but day after "next day". And yeah, I have quoted only the part which gives benefits to my opinion. If you read full story you will find out that his motivation at that moment is very debatable. I think that his thoughts at this moment clearly contradict (OBJECTION!!! ) his actions and make a conclusion that he tried to hide his feelings from reader. But someone else may come to a different conclusion.There are no solid facts here.

At the time Araragi didn't really know that Hanekawa loved him. That's why he was shocked to hear that in Tsubasa Cat.
More in general, Araragi believed to be unlovable at first.

This is a solid point. I can't argue with that. At least until I will read Tsubasa Cat.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Rost-Light

Years? I guess you just didn't read Koyomi Flower from Koyomimonogatari yet.

Ah yes, Koyomimonogatari. I thought you were talking about Bake because you mentioned their first conversation. So it's Koyomi Flower, at the beginning of chapter 3.

In fact rereading that part I wouldn't really say Koyomi thought Senjougahara would be impressed. Even though she knew he was a vampire, that was a bit reckless of him. On the other hand I can agree that he was going too far for friendship, even considering how he usually behaves.

[Altima of the Gates]

But I just find this moment interesting and I want to change topic a bit. Koyomi starts in Kizu without any motivation to live, then in Neko Black he is still not ready to live - he prefers to die, and only after meeting with Hitagi... No, it's starts earlier, but it is important factor. And I still want to see the result of this development in Zokuwari. If Nisio abandoned this theme in the "final" novel I will be very depressed.

Well he still has the self-loathing and almost of a martyr complex, seeing as he almost killed himself with Nadeko, in opposition to the fact that he knew Hitagi would be sad if he died. It is partially why Hitagi was over a barrel and worried on what to do, so it's not like their relationship stopped that part of him, moreover, she kind of enables that, because she finds him helping people to be attractive as evidenced by her conversations with Kaiki when he asked her to just tell Araragi to stop. Being with Hitagi didn't necessarily fix that abnormality of throwing himself in the wood chipper.

At the time Araragi didn't really know that Hanekawa loved him. That's why he was shocked to hear that in Tsubasa Cat.

The commentaries written by Nisio for the last episode of Tsubasa Cat make that a bit funny though. They hung out pretty much all the time, that gym storage room incident in Kizu, the multiple passes he makes on her and the way he chickens out at the last minute for each one of them. I got the feeling some of it was the fact that he was, as Hanekawa said, a chicken. That punch he got from her was well deserved if he honestly thought that girls just do that naturally for any friend. His excuses were also gut busting.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

The commentaries written by Nisio for the last episode of Tsubasa Cat make that a bit funny though. They hung out pretty much all the time, that gym storage room incident in Kizu, the multiple passes he makes on her and the way he chickens out at the last minute for each one of them. I got the feeling some of it was the fact that he was, as Hanekawa said, a chicken. That punch he got from her was well deserved if he honestly thought that girls just do that naturally for any friend. His excuses were also gut busting.

Past a certain point you just can't manage a love triangle without a dense MC

In Araragi's defense, that one time with Nadeko in Nise the way he was dense was incredibly funny (at least if you read the novel).

[Pi-face]

New Zokuowarimonogatari spoilers from 4chan:

Spoiler for Spoilers:

Morning after Araragi graduates from high school, after Araragi had washed his face, it looked like his reflection stopped moving and when he touched the mirror he seemed to sink into it. After meeting a short version of Karen (and Tsukihi, who seems normal) and a version of Ononoki who shows emotions, he panics and (after calling for Shinobu gets no response from his shadow) goes to the shrine to find Hachikuji, the god of the town. Hachikuji is an adult (but is a god, not a living human). He tells her what he's experienced. She suggests he has ended up in a mirror world.

Araragi thinks Shinobu, who he believes had been left behind in the normal world because vampires don't have a reflection, might be able to open a portal to get him out. He tries to go to the bath in Kanbaru's house, due a tale about Kanbaru's father that she tells him Koyomi Water, thinking his reflection there might allow him to communicate to his world. Kanbaru is Rainy Devil version and tries to kill him. Black Hanekawa saves him. Black Hanekawa advises him to find his partner. He notices that Kanbaru's devil arm is still on the same side (and Hanekawa's larger boob), so he starts to wonder about what's the pattern of reflection.

He goes to book store wanting information to get a better idea of the pattern but it's too much effort to read the flipped text of the books. He goes home, where he meets Sodachi (as seen in the cover illustration), who apparently grew up living with him and gets on well with him (flirting with him even).

He goes back to the shrine to see Hachikuji and she's got the god "Kuchinawa-san" with her to give advice. Kuchinawa-san is Nadeko with short white hair and speaking like Kuchinawa-san did in Otori. She gives some advice basically about not thinking of the people as being mirrored left-right, but being their other sides. Their flipsides. Their normally hidden sides.

That night (after discovering that Sodachi sleeps in a bunk bed in his room) he's woken by Ononoki. Ononoki grew suspicious due to Araragi's reaction to her, did a self-assessment check and edited her personality to be emotionless (for efficiency). She takes Araragi to see Shinobu, who is a human living in a castle with charisma so strong that it makes people kill themselves. She warns that Araragi being in their world will have a bad influence and advises Araragi to find his "partner".

Araragi tries to get into Kanbaru's house again, with Ononoki distracting Kanbaru. The reflection in the house's bath does nothing special, even when he starts using the bath. But then Tooe Gaen comes in. They talk while she's in the bath with him. She insists on washing his back, then disappears. He realizes she scratched a message on his back: the name of his (now former) school.

Ononoki (who personally doesn't want to follow Tooe's hint) goes back to Shinobu for more advice, but gets nothing useful. She tries to find Black Hanekawa and finds loli Hanekawa getting drunk at the shrine along with Hachikuji and Nadeko. They're relaxed that everything's progressing toward being solved.

Before going to the school, Araragi thinks he should put his uniform on. But there's no male uniform in his room. Araragi had been thinking that his version in the mirror world would be Ougi-chan, because that's his other side. Finding that he apparently has a female uniform makes him think this is confirmed. He worries that mirror Ougi might be in his world, working with his Ougi. He puts the female uniform on, dressing like Ougi, and goes to the school. He finds Ougi in the classroom that Ougi had made in Ougi Formula. Ougi is dressed in male uniform, as a joke because of Araragi cosplaying her (she had replaced Araragi's male uniform with hers as a joke, to panic him and make him hurry up, but hadn't expected him to actually wear it).

Ougi explains what's going on: that Araragi had unknowingly done light magic with the washroom mirror. He pulled out the other side of people, the thoughts that they left behind (similar to regrets), represented spiritually by saving the fraction of light that is absorbed rather than reflected by the mirror, and transforming the town he lives in. Characters who aren't in the town (Hanekawa, Sodachi and Tooe) are basically illusions, but the other characters are transformed by the spell. Ougi has made a black mirror (it absorbs 100% of light) and tells Araragi to put it in Hachikuji's shrine. It'll abosrb the extra light to remove the spell.

It ends with Araragi talking to Hitagi about what happened, while they're heading to get Araragi's university entrance exam results.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Pi-face

New Zokuowarimonogatari spoilers from 4chan:

Spoiler for Spoilers:

Morning after Araragi graduates from high school, after Araragi had washed his face, it looked like his reflection stopped moving and when he touched the mirror he seemed to sink into it. After meeting a short version of Karen (and Tsukihi, who seems normal) and a version of Ononoki who shows emotions, he panics and (after calling for Shinobu gets no response from his shadow) goes to the shrine to find Hachikuji, the god of the town. Hachikuji is an adult (but is a god, not a living human). He tells her what he's experienced. She suggests he has ended up in a mirror world.

Araragi thinks Shinobu, who he believes had been left behind in the normal world because vampires don't have a reflection, might be able to open a portal to get him out. He tries to go to the bath in Kanbaru's house, due a tale about Kanbaru's father that she tells him Koyomi Water, thinking his reflection there might allow him to communicate to his world. Kanbaru is Rainy Devil version and tries to kill him. Black Hanekawa saves him. Black Hanekawa advises him to find his partner. He notices that Kanbaru's devil arm is still on the same side (and Hanekawa's larger boob), so he starts to wonder about what's the pattern of reflection.

He goes to book store wanting information to get a better idea of the pattern but it's too much effort to read the flipped text of the books. He goes home, where he meets Sodachi (as seen in the cover illustration), who apparently grew up living with him and gets on well with him (flirting with him even).

He goes back to the shrine to see Hachikuji and she's got the god "Kuchinawa-san" with her to give advice. Kuchinawa-san is Nadeko with short white hair and speaking like Kuchinawa-san did in Otori. She gives some advice basically about not thinking of the people as being mirrored left-right, but being their other sides. Their flipsides. Their normally hidden sides.

That night (after discovering that Sodachi sleeps in a bunk bed in his room) he's woken by Ononoki. Ononoki grew suspicious due to Araragi's reaction to her, did a self-assessment check and edited her personality to be emotionless (for efficiency). She takes Araragi to see Shinobu, who is a human living in a castle with charisma so strong that it makes people kill themselves. She warns that Araragi being in their world will have a bad influence and advises Araragi to find his "partner".

Araragi tries to get into Kanbaru's house again, with Ononoki distracting Kanbaru. The reflection in the house's bath does nothing special, even when he starts using the bath. But then Tooe Gaen comes in. They talk while she's in the bath with him. She insists on washing his back, then disappears. He realizes she scratched a message on his back: the name of his (now former) school.

Ononoki (who personally doesn't want to follow Tooe's hint) goes back to Shinobu for more advice, but gets nothing useful. She tries to find Black Hanekawa and finds loli Hanekawa getting drunk at the shrine along with Hachikuji and Nadeko. They're relaxed that everything's progressing toward being solved.

Before going to the school, Araragi thinks he should put his uniform on. But there's no male uniform in his room. Araragi had been thinking that his version in the mirror world would be Ougi-chan, because that's his other side. Finding that he apparently has a female uniform makes him think this is confirmed. He worries that mirror Ougi might be in his world, working with his Ougi. He puts the female uniform on, dressing like Ougi, and goes to the school. He finds Ougi in the classroom that Ougi had made in Ougi Formula. Ougi is dressed in male uniform, as a joke because of Araragi cosplaying her (she had replaced Araragi's male uniform with hers as a joke, to panic him and make him hurry up, but hadn't expected him to actually wear it).

Ougi explains what's going on: that Araragi had unknowingly done light magic with the washroom mirror. He pulled out the other side of people, the thoughts that they left behind (similar to regrets), represented spiritually by saving the fraction of light that is absorbed rather than reflected by the mirror, and transforming the town he lives in. Characters who aren't in the town (Hanekawa, Sodachi and Tooe) are basically illusions, but the other characters are transformed by the spell. Ougi has made a black mirror (it absorbs 100% of light) and tells Araragi to put it in Hachikuji's shrine. It'll abosrb the extra light to remove the spell.

It ends with Araragi talking to Hitagi about what happened, while they're heading to get Araragi's university entrance exam results.

Let me get this straight, so basically Araragi didn't enter a mirror world but actually transformed his whole town and the people in it?

[Shikijin]

I finished reading the book. Review:

Spoiler for Zokuowarimonogatari:

Following the Japanese storytelling style, the book starts off slow and then picks up the pace. I confess since some time ago I started having doubts about the direction the Monogatari series is going, but by the climax of the book I was braving the late hour to read just one chapter more. In that sense, the book is overall enthralling, despite the premise of the Mirror Land is in itself lame (something Koyomi himself acknowledges in the book).

Once finished, I have mixed feelings about the book. The theme of the book, regrets, was sort of moving at times, and we get to know something more about Tooe (by the way, the Gaen bloodline specializes in creating kaii). The premise allowed to show known characters in a different light (like Shinobu nicknamed the "Oshiro" because she had a castle). There was also nice humor as usual, for example when Araragi complains he didn't think this was the kind of story where the MC had to crossdress

On the flipside, I am worried about the role of the characters. The story has reached a point where there a lot of characters and they all tend to be friends because they are good people. We need someone who also plays the part of the antagonist, like Hanekawa could. Sodachi for example is just there as a background character you feel pity for. The role of Ougi is also unclear. As uncovered in Owarimonogatari Ougi is

Spoiler for Owarimonogatari 3:

Araragi's double (meaning Ougi can't flirt with Araragi anymore I guess)

, but so what? With Shinobu at least you could understand what was her relationship with Araragi, but with Ougi is not so easily defined. Allegedly, Araragi cleans Ougi's mess and Ougi cleans Araragi's mess, except that this time Ougi was conveniently secluded in the ghost room so she couldn't do anything. Big meh

It is mentioned that there are specialists who still think it would be better to eliminate Araragi, so there are ways to make interesting stories, but I don't think Nisio will go that way. It's like there are only fillers and sidestories left to tell.

The highlight of the book for me was when Araragi considered to see what the mirror version of Senjougahara would look like, but he though it would be bad taste, like checking your lover's phone, so he didn't do it. I was so expecting the copout there

By the way, Senjougahara now has twintails. She says it's because now that she is not a highschooler anymore she doesn't feel the need to look more mature than her age, the opposite in fact. She also says that Koyomi apparently wishing for a mixed bathing with Kanbaru's mother made her rethink that.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Pi-face

New Zokuowarimonogatari spoilers from 4chan:

Spoiler for Spoilers:

Morning after Araragi graduates from high school, after Araragi had washed his face, it looked like his reflection stopped moving and when he touched the mirror he seemed to sink into it. After meeting a short version of Karen (and Tsukihi, who seems normal) and a version of Ononoki who shows emotions, he panics and (after calling for Shinobu gets no response from his shadow) goes to the shrine to find Hachikuji, the god of the town. Hachikuji is an adult (but is a god, not a living human). He tells her what he's experienced. She suggests he has ended up in a mirror world.

Araragi thinks Shinobu, who he believes had been left behind in the normal world because vampires don't have a reflection, might be able to open a portal to get him out. He tries to go to the bath in Kanbaru's house, due a tale about Kanbaru's father that she tells him Koyomi Water, thinking his reflection there might allow him to communicate to his world. Kanbaru is Rainy Devil version and tries to kill him. Black Hanekawa saves him. Black Hanekawa advises him to find his partner. He notices that Kanbaru's devil arm is still on the same side (and Hanekawa's larger boob), so he starts to wonder about what's the pattern of reflection.

He goes to book store wanting information to get a better idea of the pattern but it's too much effort to read the flipped text of the books. He goes home, where he meets Sodachi (as seen in the cover illustration), who apparently grew up living with him and gets on well with him (flirting with him even).

He goes back to the shrine to see Hachikuji and she's got the god "Kuchinawa-san" with her to give advice. Kuchinawa-san is Nadeko with short white hair and speaking like Kuchinawa-san did in Otori. She gives some advice basically about not thinking of the people as being mirrored left-right, but being their other sides. Their flipsides. Their normally hidden sides.

That night (after discovering that Sodachi sleeps in a bunk bed in his room) he's woken by Ononoki. Ononoki grew suspicious due to Araragi's reaction to her, did a self-assessment check and edited her personality to be emotionless (for efficiency). She takes Araragi to see Shinobu, who is a human living in a castle with charisma so strong that it makes people kill themselves. She warns that Araragi being in their world will have a bad influence and advises Araragi to find his "partner".

Araragi tries to get into Kanbaru's house again, with Ononoki distracting Kanbaru. The reflection in the house's bath does nothing special, even when he starts using the bath. But then Tooe Gaen comes in. They talk while she's in the bath with him. She insists on washing his back, then disappears. He realizes she scratched a message on his back: the name of his (now former) school.

Ononoki (who personally doesn't want to follow Tooe's hint) goes back to Shinobu for more advice, but gets nothing useful. She tries to find Black Hanekawa and finds loli Hanekawa getting drunk at the shrine along with Hachikuji and Nadeko. They're relaxed that everything's progressing toward being solved.

Before going to the school, Araragi thinks he should put his uniform on. But there's no male uniform in his room. Araragi had been thinking that his version in the mirror world would be Ougi-chan, because that's his other side. Finding that he apparently has a female uniform makes him think this is confirmed. He worries that mirror Ougi might be in his world, working with his Ougi. He puts the female uniform on, dressing like Ougi, and goes to the school. He finds Ougi in the classroom that Ougi had made in Ougi Formula. Ougi is dressed in male uniform, as a joke because of Araragi cosplaying her (she had replaced Araragi's male uniform with hers as a joke, to panic him and make him hurry up, but hadn't expected him to actually wear it).

Ougi explains what's going on: that Araragi had unknowingly done light magic with the washroom mirror. He pulled out the other side of people, the thoughts that they left behind (similar to regrets), represented spiritually by saving the fraction of light that is absorbed rather than reflected by the mirror, and transforming the town he lives in. Characters who aren't in the town (Hanekawa, Sodachi and Tooe) are basically illusions, but the other characters are transformed by the spell. Ougi has made a black mirror (it absorbs 100% of light) and tells Araragi to put it in Hachikuji's shrine. It'll abosrb the extra light to remove the spell.

It ends with Araragi talking to Hitagi about what happened, while they're heading to get Araragi's university entrance exam results.

So wait is -that- why Ougi's wearing a male uniform in Hana?

[Shikijin]

IIRC in Hana Ougi said s/he wasn't a trap. That may have been a lie, or maybe not. Maybe it is the subject of another story.