What is the message that Kazuma Kamachi wants to communicate?

[LazyHunter]

Spoiler for Answer to Loremaster:

Originally Posted by Loremaster

And not acknowledging that it is a problem is equally ridiculous.

Nah, I don't agree with you. It's not a problem here anymore that it's a problem in other LNs. I see people respecting each others opinions. Disagreeing about things and talking about them it's not problematic, and a few Elitist fans dismissing the fans that "aren't on their level" or "don't get the series" are an annoyance that can be easily ignored, not an issue.

But you're correct, this index's community, in general, is not the origin or be the end of such behaviour. It's ingrained in peoples desire to feel important in their constrained idea of community which is often created in a particular fandom. Those who hold the most stronger or stubborn views would often be known more than an average fan. So basically the Elitist behaviour displayed by the extreme fans are just trying to inflate their ego and attempt to seem more important.

AS you said, those are a small minority present in every community. Every time an anime based on a manga, a LN or a VN there will be some of these fans of the source material who dismiss fans who only watch the anime or prefer the anime. It's not just Index, those Elitist fans are everywhere.

That grumpy stick known as Natsurin is reflecting a general behaviour that is displayed in the index community that goes beyond even this forum. Who knows very well that isn't inherent to just those who enjoy index. It's basically the fault of those very loud fans, who want to seem the most correct in their constrained idea of community and a feel a glimpse of importance.

Again, I personally don't see it as a problem in the Index community, here on in the other forums I frequent. Vocal minorities happen in all communities.

But reading your post makes me feel you're trying to defend the community, though my only experience with the Index fans, in general, is this place and some roleplaying forum I can only use this as it's a place we share.

Of course I am, I disagree with several things Natsurin said about it.

This place isn't any ideal place to have a chin wag about our favourite esper or magician. To be fair it's not as bad as it has been, but joining this community is rather daunting and if you look beyond the corners of this site lot of people view the members in that negative light. A reputation that has been well earned many years before has lingered as a bad stain and sadly continues to be so as its really hard to crack the circle of fans on here.

I mean let's not forget in the past those who enjoyed Misaka as a character was attacked as a 'fag' and those who didn't enjoy Othinus are often labelled as 'clueless' even if that god is just Index 2.0.

As you said, this was an issue in the past, when the Railgun seasons aired there were spikes in rabid shippers and fans of both the source material and the anime attacking each other. That has died down.

A large part of that are rabid shippers attacking other heroines, those people should be ignored as they rarely have a point to their ramblings.

But I'm not here to bring up old wounds of the past, more so to help get others acknowledge the point that is being made. This community isn't immune to such behaviour and so I urge you to read Nats post once more and try to acknowledgewhat it's implying.

I read it two times, and I understand what Natsuring was implying. I simply don't agree with it.

As it's not just a personal opinion, it's a view that is often shared beyond this forum and I personally like to see it gone. So there will be a time when new members can join here and not feel intimidated by expressing their view.

Several people can have the same opinion and that still doesn't make their opinion a fact. Some people view this forum as fanboys? Good for them and they have a right to that opinion, but should we really care about what people of other sites think and say about us and our opinions on a series? Seems like a waste of time to worry about what people we don't interact with think about us. Some Elitist fans dismiss/attack fans who don't enjoy the series as much as them or dislike it entirely as "not getting it"? Those people should be considered on the same level as trolls.

If someone wants to join and express different views, they can. If they don't like the general view of the series in this forum and feel they can't join because of that, once again, they can, that's their choice. I myself left a forum about the series because basically everyone else had a wildly different opinion about the series and characters, so there wasn't much common ground for me to talk about them. I never thought they were "wrong" for having different opinions, and I'll feel the same towards any members here who express a different opinion.

And also to point out, that saying the author is a genius and writes amazingly isn't a basis for an argument. We can have great discussions and only if we also listen to each other.

I didn't say it wasnt? I said some fans, including me, think's he's a good LN author and that Index is a great LN series. That's a perfectly valid subjective opinion, a far cry from saying he's a genius, and it's not trying to be an argument to discuss the quality of a series.

Spoiler for Answer to Natsurin:

Originally Posted by Natsurin

I've said Index specifically, yes, but I never actually said anything about other light novels simply because firstly, I don't follow any other novel that has a large enough fanbase for it to be a problem, and secondly that that's not the same standard other people hold it to most of the time. It's a general rule that the more popularity a work has, the more rabid and aggressive fanboys or haters it'll attract and that showed during the SAO grand war, but I can't actually say anything about novels I'm not reading or people would then be trying to discredit my posts on my mindlessly hating things I don't even know much about in the first place.

I've seen the same style of "fanboys" and "haters" of Index in several other novels, especially when an anime comes out and their popularity explodes. That's why I say it's not an issue of Index, is an issue of the medium and fiction in general. People blow series out of proportion all the time.

That's where you're starting to head into assumptions and dodging parts of my message to invalidate my points. There was actually a time there I thought Index was a pretty high-tier novel as well and for those specific volumes I still think that way (because apparently this subforum struggles with the notion of "grey areas" rather than full on black or white, I guess it's easier to flag people when you don't have to ponder the implications of what they're saying when they're saying they don't like something in this series). And while no one's openly saying it, some people are definitely acting the part and almost act offended on the handful of times their opinion of Kamachi's beautiful prose was contested and argued against by pointing out a flaw or anything that might compromise the idea that it's not a perfect work unless it's widely agreed by the entirety of the fanbase that it was a really shitty flaw (but it's so uncommon that I don't even have an example that would immediately pop to mind besides the useless baiting for marketing purposes of early NT volumes), and that's certainly not a behaviour I was the only one subjected to.

What parts of that paragraph I'm dodging or ignoring? Mikoto haters? Rabid shippers like that should be ignored. The fact that as a commercial action/sci-fi/fantasy LN, Index is a hobby work without much depth made by an author that simply loves writing cool/weird stuff? That's obvious, and has nothing to do with my argument or the part of your post I'm criticizing.

This particular line? "Kamachi is, also, just an average author whose main high point of praise is simply how persistent he is in pursuing his hobby in the ways he prefers doing it"? As I said, that's an opinion I respect, but it's just that, an opinion as valid as those who say he's a good author or that he's a bad author.

I'm not offended or anything you dislike some or all parts of the series. I never adressed your opinion on the series itself on my post because I have no issue with it, just like I have no issue with several members of this forum who I have disagreed and discussed things on the past. I also didn't adress it because it has nothing to do with my argument, which is that I don't see the Elitist problem you claim the community has. Therefore, I consider the Elitist fan you describe in your post a strawman. As Loremaster mentioned, Elitism and the haters of certain characters were certainly a problem in the past, but nowadays it's on the levels of any other community. Therefore since you're saying this now, it must be because of recent events or development on the series. Given your later statements of your opinion on NT (opinion that, once again, I respect even if I disagree with it), I concluded that you have an issue with the people who are enjoying NT and its later developments. If that was a wrong assumption to make I apologize, but that was the impression I got from your post

Since you're also conveniently foregoing this and the numerous times I mentioned not hating this series (but that's fine, that's basically to be expected at this point), as I mention later in my post, I don't care about whether or not they love it, what bothers me is how they express that love and you can't say this fandom hasn't been prone to the most absolutely nonsensical circlejerking and other absolutely retarded behaviour born of a suprematist mindset of "agree with our superior opinions, or fuck off from our precious subforum" that the mods had to repeatedly intervene and separate just to quell. Weird how Index isn't the only light novel series with such an admittedly difficult series structure and rabid fandom issues, but was the only one that was forced to be separated so much just to keep tidy and peaceful if the fanbase is, as you seem to think, not that bad compared to others...

I'm not foregoing anything. At no point did I attack you for your opinion on the series itself, because I have no issue with people having different opinions than me of it and disliking it or not liking it as much as I do. My arguments were about your talks of elitism, as should be obvious by readin my post.

I'll point to my answer to Loremaster above, that comes from a time where there was a problem with the community, a problem that is nowhere near as present today.

If you love something, that's good for you and not my place to say anything about it as long as it floats your boat. But if you're constantly going to circlejerk (and, again, don't you dare tell me this very subforum has never been very heavily oriented towards circlejerking people who had unfavourable opinions when there was a time where barely mentioning some characters would get you flagged as a fag who had no credibility) because you like it and don't accept others don't like it, or are just generally shit at expressing your love for the series in a mature way where everyone can agree to disagree, then that's an entirely different problem.

Refer to my answers above, and this forum is not heavily oriented towards circlejerking, as should be obvious by the many people who have made their displeasure with some of the later developments on NT known without being attacked by everyone else.

Like I said far too many times now, I don't like where the series is going, but I've never encouraged anyone to do anything or attack anyone on the opposite stance. The most I've done is just defend my point because you guys seem to translate every non-"this is a great novel" to "I hate this and I'm just here to mention that" when, if any attention was paid, it would've gone noticed that I've mentioned repeatedly liking this series prior to where it went wrong in my opinion. Again, must be more difficult to process when trying to categorise people as "worthy or filthy infidels incapable of understanding the great truth" or some other bollocks.

And that's fine. I disagree with your opinion, but I respect it and agree with your stance on people with conflicting opinions to mine. I haven't seen that many people attack those who didn't like the novel. Disagree with them, sure, but not take it as a personal offense or an insult to the series.

Once again, not paying attention to my point to say it's personal grudge and forego entirely what I'm saying. What I said was that Index was not written with a message in mind to begin with, and its sole messages are the thematic ones that may be included in a volume, simply because it was never planned to even grow at the size where it could deliver a message.

That would only apply to the first novel, and as I said, most people read the series because they like the plot, characters, etc; not because it has an unique message like you claim.

Or go ahead, find an actual message that the series as a whole in Kamachi's mind wants to deliver to its audience, because chances are there aren't on the sole basis that there doesn't need to be for it to be able to entertain people.

My post has nothing to do with the question of if there's a central message to the series that Kamachi wants to communicate, because I agree with you and others that it doesn't have one. It's an action/sci-fi/fantasy LN that Kamachi writes to write cool/weird stuff and people read it because they like said stuff. That's not the point I'm arguing againts.

I'll concede my next paragraph was rather poorly written and expressed, but once again it's not that exact mindset that bothers me (if a plot point truly surprises you, good for you, I'm not going to sell myself as someone who sees everything coming just to make others feel like idiots since even this series surprised me a few times whether in a good or bad way) but the expression that's as if Index is unique in that regard is what's annoyingly short-sighted. Most of the time, it's not, and the fanbase needs to seriously take a step back when it comes to literally praising everything Kamachi writes because... well, it's Kamachi, and clearly anyone else who doesn't agree is mistaken to his greatness as opposed to other works (that could very well be worthy of similar praise in different ways).

I fail to see how I disagreed with you on this. Fanboys like that are a vocal minority. Like other vocal minorities, they do not represent the majority of the fanbase.

I find it rather interesting you seem quite attached to this "strawman" term to discredit what I'm saying, not only rather poorly at that since you're not tackling the other half of my message which said there was no message to be read in Index which was a rather considerable part of my entire post, despite affirming yourself you had no experience with Index communities beyond this one and my repeatedly affirming I've had involvement with other Index communities as a whole, and not just restricted to English ones and mentioning two times at that that what I was saying didn't restrict itself to AnimeSuki alone.

Once again, my post was never about what message is to be read in Index (As mentioned above, I agree with you in that theres' none), my post was about your attack on fans. And for I think you did use a strawman to represent those few Elitist fans who disses all that don't like the series as "not getting it". This is something I rarely see so I disagree with your and Loremaster's opinion of this being somehow a widespread problem in the community and not a small minority of people that can be easily ignored, just like trolls or rabid shippers.

Also, a bit unrelated but, "I don't follow many Index forums besides this one" doesn't mean I lack experience with other communities. I've been to several and still follow a few. Those include several Spanish-speaking communities. Still doesn't change my opinion of the community or your opinion that the series has an Elitist problem.

As a last comment I'll say that I fully agree with OH&S. However, one should also take into account that people that do like things in the series that you don't are not necessarily "being dishonest" or "not accepting the faults". If they like them their opinions are as valid as those who don't.

I'm going to leave it at here before getting more off-topic, but if anyone wants to continue this discussion they can send me a PM.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by OH&S

EDIT: In order to prevent my post from being deleted I guess I'll just say this: There's no reason why you can't accept the faults of this series and still enjoy it nonetheless. I've made piece with the fact that Index isn't a critically praised masterpiece and just another sandbox for Kamachi to go crazy quite a while ago. Sometimes along the way he stumbles (NT14 and NT17 come to mind) sometimes he has resounding successes (NT6, NT8-11,NT18). It won't stop it from being my favourite LN series.

It isn't quite right to look a for a deep answer as to what Kamachi wants to communicate as it changes with each volume, story arc, saga and series. There's definitely some recurring themes that he uses but I'm pretty sure they aren't especially complex or its something that other series do a lot better. Not that its something to get hungover about.

You really like that gif don't you, lol? Also, I agree with your take on it. I think his quality goes up and down, but he's using this sandbox to create some incredible masterpieces every now and then. I mostly love his creativity and his ideas like in the long post I outlined above. You're better with words though.

That reminds me, not to take sides or anything, but I do think that some of us used to have a problem with being elitist. I say this because: "guilty as charged" . I've hopefully emotionally matured though, so it's fine. People have different opinions and everyone's experience is valid and important. It's still annoying to the people who want everyone to like something after they personally enjoyed it so much, but it isn't fair to circlejerk and ignore other people's opinions )though maybe nicer words could be used to describe the behavior lol since when you talk like that no one wants to listen to you lolol).

Rather than elitism, I think that our sub-forum has always just had a lot of miscommunication because we have lots of ingrained misunderstandings where we think we're insulting each other or arguing when we're really not trying to make each other mad... Not to preach, but I think that most of us could really work on that. I'll say though that I think OH&S is especially level-headed among us. He rarely gets childishly mad lol. The only fault I see in your responses is that you've been overly cynical and jaded over the years, Meh. That's just my opinion though.

It might be worthwhile as a community to try to find a better way of expressing points/thoughts to each other instead of going in and shouting and defending each other's honor so we can overall communicate better here and get along well instead of suffering here on the sub-form when we could all just be having fun. I mean, we all do want to have fun right? I am personally committed to work on that anyway. I think it'd be a good thing to try to improve the quality of the community. It might make it more fun to stick around even in-between novels.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by bakato

Plenty of things. If Touma is any indication, he has a fetish for older woman with big busts.

If we're just sticking to Majutsu no Index, what's Kamachi Kazuma trying to say the way he keeps introducing new love interests to Touma through the volumes? It's very possible to make a best-selling and memorable love triangle story, like Maruto Fumiaki's White Album 2. But Touma's story doesn't look like a true harem, and so if he ends up with just one heroine (or even none of them) a lot of fans will be disappointed.

It's going to be dramatic enough given what will happen between Mikoto and Misaki once Touma finds out his history with Misaki. Then you have Kaori (who is Touma's fetish) and Itsuwa fighting over Touma as well. But why did Kamachi keep piling on more potential love interests on Touma, such as Orsola and Agnese? Are the later heroines just Kamachi satirizing the harem genre in general? Or is it something else, like he's making fun of the saying "You might be unlucky in life, but at least you're lucky in love"?

[KiharaRonin]

I think he's just introducing many female characters because he likes to make girl characters and because it's what sells.

As for the whole series' message, there seems to be multiple messages. Each volume contains a new message Touma (or some other protagonist) tries to prove to an antagonist. Some volumes have more than one.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by KiharaRonin

I think he's just introducing many female characters because he likes to make girl characters and because it's what sells.

Does each new female character that Kamachi create mean a lot of new sales of merchandise such as figures that Kadokawa can sell? I'm not so sure. It makes more sense for him to do that in To Aru Kagaku no Railgun because that story is focussed around the female student characters, like a science fantasy version of K-ON!.

But so many of the potential love interests for Touma have turned out to be red herrings in the end, like Aisa Himegami, or Index (who I've heard some people say has become a background character in a series named for her). Having all these female characters become love interests for Touma and then never have their plot threads get resolved sounds like padding the plot to me. Or is there some message Kamachi is trying to communicate through this that I'm missing?

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

If we're just sticking to Majutsu no Index, what's Kamachi Kazuma trying to say the way he keeps introducing new love interests to Touma through the volumes? It's very possible to make a best-selling and memorable love triangle story, like Maruto Fumiaki's White Album 2. But Touma's story doesn't look like a true harem, and so if he ends up with just one heroine (or even none of them) a lot of fans will be disappointed.

It's going to be dramatic enough given what will happen between Mikoto and Misaki once Touma finds out his history with Misaki. Then you have Kaori (who is Touma's fetish) and Itsuwa fighting over Touma as well. But why did Kamachi keep piling on more potential love interests on Touma, such as Orsola and Agnese? Are the later heroines just Kamachi satirizing the harem genre in general? Or is it something else, like he's making fun of the saying "You might be unlucky in life, but at least you're lucky in love"?

If by true harem you mean definitively ending up with all the girls, then Index never looked like one.

I never saw Orsola as a potential love interest. We were bound to get more female characters in trouble instead of only males.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Does each new female character that Kamachi create mean a lot of new sales of merchandise such as figures that Kadokawa can sell? I'm not so sure. It makes more sense for him to do that in To Aru Kagaku no Railgun because that story is focussed around the female student characters, like a science fantasy version of K-ON!.

But so many of the potential love interests for Touma have turned out to be red herrings in the end, like Aisa Himegami, or Index (who I've heard some people say has become a background character in a series named for her). Having all these female characters become love interests for Touma and then never have their plot threads get resolved sounds like padding the plot to me. Or is there some message Kamachi is trying to communicate through this that I'm missing?

I think calling them love interests is a bit much. Touma saved them and defended them at great personal risk and cost, demonstrating outstanding and admirable character. He's given them every reason to be smitten with him unlike other generic harem protagonists. But considering Touma has had very little contact with the heroines aside from Misaka outside of their respective crises, I don't think a romantic relationship was ever on the table. Their plot threads were resolved when Touma saved them in their respective volumes. If their regular lives don't intersect with his, then there's very little to justify further interaction. You can't fault Touma for that when he's getting dragged into someone else's personal crisis with world shattering stakes involved.

I think this is all for the best. Touma saved their days and restored their normal happy lives. Latching on afterward would be very crass. I don't think there's really any message here. It's just a natural outcome of events.

[KiharaRonin]

Originally Posted by bakato

If by true harem you mean definitively ending up with all the girls, then Index never looked like one.

I never saw Orsola as a potential love interest. We were bound to get more female characters in trouble instead of only males.



I think calling them love interests is a bit much. Touma saved them and defended them at great personal risk and cost, demonstrating outstanding and admirable character. He's given them every reason to be smitten with him unlike other generic harem protagonists. But considering Touma has had very little contact with the heroines aside from Misaka outside of their respective crises, I don't think a romantic relationship was ever on the table. Their plot threads were resolved when Touma saved them in their respective volumes. If their regular lives don't intersect with his, then there's very little to justify further interaction. You can't fault Touma for that when he's getting dragged into someone else's personal crisis with world shattering stakes involved.

I think this is all for the best. Touma saved their days and restored their normal happy lives. Latching on afterward would be very crass. I don't think there's really any message here. It's just a natural outcome of events.

All of this!

[Five_Overs]

Its pretty simple, people can think whatever they want. Whether the toaru series is a masterpiece or a mediocre work, gold or trash is up to the reader to decide. As long as they explain their point of view when they disagree and not try to force others to conform to their opinions, I don't see a problem. dniv in particular is pretty good at elaborating why he think the way he does.

As for me personally, I think to aru deserves all the praise it can get. Kamachi's skill to take a bunch of seemingly irreconcilable ideas and masterfully string them together is often underrated I feel. I just cannot find any other author that comes close to what kamachi does best.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by OH&S

EDIT: In order to prevent my post from being deleted I guess I'll just say this: There's no reason why you can't accept the faults of this series and still enjoy it nonetheless. I've made piece with the fact that Index isn't a critically praised masterpiece and just another sandbox for Kamachi to go crazy quite a while ago. Sometimes along the way he stumbles (NT14 and NT17 come to mind) sometimes he has resounding successes (NT6, NT8-11,NT18). It won't stop it from being my favourite LN series.

It isn't quite right to look a for a deep answer as to what Kamachi wants to communicate as it changes with each volume, story arc, saga and series. There's definitely some recurring themes that he uses but I'm pretty sure they aren't especially complex or its something that other series do a lot better. Not that its something to get hungover about.

After reading NT 19, I now realize that your messages are starting to take on a new sinister meaning.

Choronzon represents the principle of dispersion. And that's what happens when members of a fandom clash. So if you're resisting the dispersion, then you must be Aiwass! And Kamachi said in the afterward that Aiwass is evil ... which means ... you must ... be ... evil!

I'm watching you OH&S. Trying to defuse (disperse) these tension filled gatherings ... you're either Aiwass or Coronzon stalking us. We shall not fall to you!

[Master Assassin]

I think we do have one clear message from Kamachi after all these years looking at what he has done.

He simply loves writing so much that being paid for it is kind of a bonus for him, more or less. Considering his LNs were not the only things with his name on it, I fail to imagine that he's struggling with bills to impede with his love.

And I'm partially joking because... well, I haven't been following what's going on in Raildex much, not even after the "End of the Memetic Curse: Will There Be An Index III?"

I enjoy the flavors of his writing gimmicks he comes up with, and a number of his chapters in A Simple Monitoring kind of amuse me.

Speaking of which, it's about time I edit my signature...

[Chosen_Hero]

What is the message that Kazuma Kamachi wants to communicate?

That being a high schooler called Kamijou Touma is suffering (most of the time) and that if you don't want to lead an indentured life at the service of powerful monsters that use you to further their plans you don't save the girl that falls from the sky.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

That being a high schooler called Kamijou Touma is suffering (most of the time) and that if you don't want to lead an indentured life at the service of powerful monsters that use you to further their plans you don't save the girl that falls from the sky.

Sounds about right. * infinity