Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I did not argue it at first. I gave an opinion and people bit my head off. I was just putting out what came up in my mind. What happened to that "freedom of speech?" I wouldn't have said anything had people just probably ignored it or told me what THEY thought rather than saying I'm delusional. Kujoe was actually very civil, (thank you.) but the others... hardly.

Now, now...be honest. I don't know about anyone else, but for me, your opinion is just that: your opinion. It was when you started making up supposed "facts" (like when you said that May'n was picked because Kawamori didn't like Aya Endo's singing voice, or that the Frontier Fleet launched in 2012, or that Tokyo was under water) that I started getting upset.

So no, it's not just your opinion that's getting you into trouble. And people who make up things and then take them as fact are, indeed, delusional.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Yes, you are right, Roy says "fickle girl." AnimeCentral translated most of the series so far if you wanna download them, just 2 left.

...

[Natsuki Hyuga]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

This discussion belongs in the SDF thread, no?

Nope, this thread is generally for discussing every romance in Macross series. The thread name itself should speak clarity, even if we all are too absorbed in MacF triangle all over this year

Whether Basara should have married a space whale instead of Mylene, or whether Max and Millia is such an adorable couple even pre-microed Millia or whether Sharon Apple shall go dominatrix to every single men in Macross Plus, you actually can discuss them all here

In fact, I believe even if SDF rewatch just started, this thread itself is a seperate topic, so I personally think it's okay to give opinions or make an argument on SDF Macross relationship. But not in the rewatch thread until the scene related to certain discussion pops up there.

/GOES OFF TO WATCH PIRATES OF CARIBBEAN NOW TO KYAA KYAA @ JOHNNY DEPP/

[erfine]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

It was when you started making up supposed "facts" (like when you said that May'n was picked because Kawamori didn't like Aya Endo's singing voice, or that the Frontier Fleet launched in 2012, or that Tokyo was under water) that I started getting upset.

Not to reopen old arguments, but wasn't the point about Frontier's launch continuity dependent? It's weird to argue over the "facts" of a fictional universe, especially one with so many alternate renditions of events.

Real life events are another story.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Regardless that the movie is different than the series when it comes to when they met, Hikaru STILL chose to fall in love with her for NO reason. He had barely met her in both universes (though in the movie she was famous then). He didn't quite know what he was getting into and once he realized just how unaware she was of his affections, he ended up falling for Misa, his own COMMANDER.

Do people normally choose to fall in love? Do they usually draw up lists with reasons beforehand?

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Their attitude.

Chi-Chi was described as a bitch and especially in the English version, both Minmei and Chi-Chi had the same play on me. In the Japanese, though, Chi-Chi was worse in terms of "I should be more important to you than anything else!" Minmei started that phase when she was living with Hikaru. Otherwise, besides that, both women found THEMSELVES more important than the war, yet they would swallow their pride and stand up to help in the end. When it comes to HOW that plays, they are different. Also, Minmei had a difference that she loved her fans more than Hikaru till the end.

Anyone who said that Chi chi was a selfish bitch has never seen Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball Z. Even the Japanese version Chi-Chi doesn't put herself first. Who she puts first in everything are her children, and her family. She never goes "What about me?" she only goes "What about Gohan, what about his future?". She doesn't want Gohan to fight because she's afraid he'll be killed, and the reason why she is like that is because of Goku and the things that he went through. But even then she once punched Gohan's tutor through a window for insulting Goku before Gohan after Goku died.

You can't say that Chi chi finds herself more important than the war, because she has never anything like to make anyone say that, besides Chi-chi's world isn't always at war (if you could even call it that). It was actually Bulma who was more selfish than Chi-chi.

Minmei meanwhile was a normal girl caught up in a war, and so did not know how to respond to it. There is also a question of whether or not Minmei really did love Hikaru at all, while Chi-Chi loved Goku from the start, and never stopped loving him even though she could have easily had anyone else. You saying that they have something in common besides being Chinese is proof of you not watching either series.

I did not argue it at first. I gave an opinion and people bit my head off. I was just putting out what came up in my mind. What happened to that "freedom of speech?" I wouldn't have said anything had people just probably ignored it or told me what THEY thought rather than saying I'm delusional. Kujoe was actually very civil, (thank you.) but the others... hardly.

I would help if you didn't bring up old discussions. All of things you bring up (except for you rather sexist Alto should only marry a girly girl who can cook argument) are things that have been brought up before by people who not only did pay attention to the series, but also weren't Ranka-centered in their views like you and therefore didn't need to insert her into events that didn't involve her, didn't make things up, and are generally much better at debating. It would also help if you didn't act like you were were high mighty and knew more than everyone here, despite you getting your information from wikipedia, which is public and can be edited by anyone, and if you didn't outright make things up.

@efrine
I don't think any of the alternate re-tellings say that Frontier launched in 2012, so not even that argument helps.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I did not argue it at first. I gave an opinion and people bit my head off. I was just putting out what came up in my mind. What happened to that "freedom of speech?" I wouldn't have said anything had people just probably ignored it or told me what THEY thought rather than saying I'm delusional

You are certainly welcomed to have freedom of speech, but you having freedom of speech does not mean the rest of us don't, and should stay quiet while you spew incorrect information. Moreover, this is a public forum, your statements come under public scrutiny. If we can deal with it, you should too.

Personally, I can care less whose fan you are, but when you start utilizing falsehoods to support your statements and then attempt to defend a rather hopeless position when proven wrong, it starts to get irksome quickly. For example, where did you get the information that Kawamori picked May'N because Aya couldn't sing? Of course Kawamori wouldn't pick Endo, the latter was never a singer in the first place!

Then telling us to take off our shipping goggles? And post something resembling a discussion about shipping? Sorry dear, self-contradiction and hypocrisy can only go so far.

- Tak

[CrowKenobi]

I don't know where to begin with the character mis-interpretations there...

But I do want to emphasize that any replies (to LMK's post above) MUST stay civil (that includes you LMK) or I WILL delete the whole post. If anyone can't, then there WILL be warnings given out.

[CrowKenobi]

I'm only talking about replies to your post.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

I'm only talking about replies to your post.

Oh, okay.

[wisteria233]

Spoiler for off topic:

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Hate to tell you this, but I have absolute PROOF that I own the entire Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT box sets. Have seen all 300 and some odd episodes! Chi-Chi IS a selfish bitch. In the beginning, when she met Goku, it was ALL about her. He was a little kid who didn't understand a thing of what he was getting into (that's why I love the "it was a proposal of marriage!?" shock from him). She drags him along for the ride and becomes a damsel in distress along the way where he has to rescue her. Regardless if he fell in love with her for a reason then, when Chi-Chi was younger - before they had Gohan - she WAS a selfish bitch.

And you saw Macross Frontier too, and yet you misinterpret everything there, so that doesn't help your argument any. Besides you're not the only who saw Dragon Ball, Dragon ball Z, Dragon Ball GT and read the manga.

In the beginning when Chi-chi met Goku she was looking for a way to Master Roshi (instead of her father mind you) to put out the fire on the mountain that was her home. At that time she never once talks about herself, as she too worried about her home being on fire. Chi-Chi also never gets kidnapped, so calling her a damsel in distress is inherently false, in fact the first time she appears she chops a dinosaur's head off and then blows it up (Yamcha and practically all the other characters lampshade this fact), and one time she even accidentally smacks Goku through a tree when she doesn't hold back during their training and that's the last time they meet as kids. Then she has Goku promise to marry her, (which he could have easily got out of mind you) and she never forces to do, she simply asks him and he says "okay". Then she doesn't appear for how many seasons again, until they are at the world tournament. In which afterwards its the Ox King who gets in trouble and they search for a way to get him out of it. Chi chi is never the damsel in distress in Dragon Ball proper.

I think you're mistaking her for Bulma who at first wanted the Dragon Balls to find a boyfriend, and penchant for getting kidnapped every other episode.

Wrong... so wrong. Her family is barely mentioned after Dragon Ball ends. Her father rarely shows up and her mother is never mentioned again. The only one who she DOES care about is Gohan. Does she care about him more than the world? YES. I can't COUNT the number of times she puts his SCHOOL WORK above saving the world, not realizing the school won't be there if he doesn't stop an evil being from destroying it. She also cares more about him than Goku, oddly enough. When Goku dies, yes, she is upset; but she is more angry at him FOR dying - for PROTECTING Earth AND her.

Once again I wonder if you even watched the series. The reason why she was pissed off at Goku (and this is mentioned) is because she was the last he find out that he died, and Gohan was kidnapped by Piccolo (and Krillin's at fault for that one) after she finds this out she faints and for a good few episodes is out like a light. It doesn't help matters that the only thing that she know is that Goku is just going to train more and go off in to a battle this time involving her 4-year old son who doesn't know how to fight and she that won't be able to see him at all until the battle ends, if he survives it. Unless ice water is running through your veins that would be hard to stomach, no matter if for the greater good or not. Oh and by the way even Goku had a hard time stomaching Gohan fighting, in fact none of the other characters were fond of the idea of Gohan fighting.

Oh yeah and if you knew anything about Dragon ball, you'd know that Gohan actually likes going to school, much more than likes fighting. He admits as much. And since when was it a crime to want your good education. I guess all those strict mothers, who believe that getting an education is important are the devil now. Oh and in between Cell Saga and Buu saga Chi-chi never bothers Gohan with about his school work, in fact she pretty much leaves Gohan to his own devices after this. In that time period Gohan makes the choice to focus on his school work. Also Chi-chi decides to train Goten to the point that he becomes a super saiyan in Goku's memory so your point is once again lost.

Oh, I think you missed a piece of that tutor episode where Chi-Chi does question why Goku always does this to her: die or vanish. She questions "why me?" Never mind that Gohan is the one mostly suffering, as he could've done something, especially in the Cell saga.

Maybe she's worry about her own future, which is understandable because she is a widow again, and Goku is her husband. What, she's not allowed to suffer because he's gone for the second time, leaving her to raise their son alone. And considering that she did beat the tutor for even saying what he did about Goku, again that kinda mitigates what your saying. Also she gets upset at Goku for leaving her alone all the time, because its what he does. Again unless there is ice water running through your veins it would be a problem for any woman, going through it.

To be honest with you, Chi-Chi never thinks with her head. If Gohan doesn't fight, there will be no future: nothing for him. The Earth would be destroyed so where would he go to school? Where would his career end up? She never thinks about that, which makes her totally LIKE Minmei AND Ranka. Instead of thinking of the honest reality, she fills her head with a video game, like bad guys and destruction doesn't exist. But with Goku, sure, he can go off and fight, then he'll die and she yell at him, even though she said nothing to him to even stop him or give him support. Honestly, Chi-Chi is the most annoying character in DB, but also the funniest.

Gohan was 4 years old the first time he was kidnapped by Piccolo to be sent into battle, he was just a toddler. No matter who you are it is quite unbelievable that a 4 year old, especially your 4 year old with no experience in fighting, would have an easier time defeating some super powered aliens with just one year of training than; a guy whose the reincarnation of an all powerful demon king, your adult husband who is deemed the strongest the in the world, and adult his friends who have been training in martial arts since they were small. No matter who the hell you are that shit is kinda unbelievable. Oh and on top of that Gohan wanted to go to school, he didn't like fighting, and again since when was it a sin to want your child to live a normal life and get an education? Just to point it out even Goku had a hard time stomaching this. Even if it is reality it is hard to believe, and again unless you have ice water running through your veins, or were incredibly trusting you'd have a hard time believing it too. Oh yeah and Gohan did become an engineer didn't he, he was still happy with his life wasn't he?

Yes it is very different from Minmei or even Ranka, as neither of them went through the emotional roller coaster that Chi-chi went through. OH and for the record she did get upset with Goku constantly going off to fight, because she was worried whether or not he'd return home alive (and considering his penchant for dying I think her worries are well founded).

You forget that Chi-Chi puts her son's future as being more important than him helping when he actually IS a big help. She picks this up with GOTEN too if you failed to realize.

And again Chi-Chi is a mother whose toddler is being pulled into conflict after conflict. And no she didn't pick this up with Goten, by the time Goten came around she realized that no matter what, what happened with Gohan would happen with Goten too, and so she personally trained Goten, until he became a super saiyan, and she never says anything against him going off to fight either, which is a fact that you failed to see in your watching of DBZ

Actually, Bulma made more sacrifices than Chi-Chi. She went WITH Gohan and Kuririn to Planet Namek to find the Dragon Balls. She risked being killed by Vegeta to protect a mere Dragon Ball. She rescued Goku more times than I care to count. Also, she helped calm Vegeta (a ruthless killer) into a normal life. That's a lot of sacrifices.

Because Bulma had both Kurllian and Gohan to protect her. She didn't risk anything because she was constantly in hiding, and she would bitch at them, for leaving her alone, constatly asking for one of them to stay and protect. Also she saved Goku, I think its the other way around. From Dragon Ball to Dragon Ball GT it is Goku that saves Bulma not the other way around. The only help she provides him is her tech knowledge. Also she sacrifice to calm Vegeta? By that time both of them were already interested in each other, and her relationship with Yamcha wasn't going anywhere, that's how they ended up together.

And when we talk about sacrifices, how many has Chi-Chi made? Yes, she protects people, but only when she's THERE. That's not good. Plus, she was absolutely AGAINST not going with Gohan yet she later said that GOKU needed her more. A mother is supposed to protect her young, I get that, but Chi-Chi is like a fucking hen...

Well both her son's, her husband, any semblance of a normal life, her sanity, any life that she was used to, etc. But according to you those things aren't they? And again Chi-chi isn't a strong so who can she protect? She was against Gohan going to Namek, and didn't want Goku to go because he was injured, so of course he needed her. Chi-Chi tried her best to protect her son's but the circumstances didn't allow to happen. Also make your mind are you saying she's a horrible selfish bitch for not wanting her children to get caught up in fights with intergalactic psychopaths, or is she a horrible bitch for not doing enough to make sure her son's don't get involved in the conflicts? Make up your mind.

Again, you're missing the point. Minmei didn't START out in a war. She was a normal kid. Hikaru crashes into her house. He chooses to fall in love with her when they are alone on SDF-1 after their small "adventure." Minmei took advantage of that just like Chi-Chi did Goku, neither man knowing where the relationship was going or what was going on. The only difference, Chi-Chi married Goku, Minmei only "play married" him and then laughed it off, as if it were a joke.

The war against the Zentradi starts in episode one, we only ever see Minmei during the war, you'd know this if you ever watched Macross. We never really get to see Minmei when there isn't a war, and while Minmei took advantage of Hikaru, without knowing it. Chi-chi didn't take advantage of Goku, since she didn't know that he had no idea what marriage meant, and she had no way of knowing. Also Chi-chi never once strung Goku along, she was interested in him from the very start. So once again the only thing they have in common is the fact that they are Chinese.

Actually, Chi-Chi had a CRUSH on Goku as kids. When she grew up, she became more selfish. I still remember at the tournament where she told him he promised to marry her. Remember his reaction? "Marry!? What's that?" Whilst Chi-Chi's feelings MIGHT have grown, he obviously didn't show a true interest in romance UNTIL he married Chi-Chi, as he was around LOTS of women who wanted a pass at him (Bulma included). He ALSO chose to love Chi-Chi, to fulfill a promise, not because he loved her in return. But you also miss the fact that whilst Chi-Chi MIGHT love him, when he dies, she's more angered than sad, and also, she gets over it EASILY. It's amazing how irritating she can be to me even now.

And you're forgetting the part, where Goku basically goes, "sure, why not" after he finds out what marriage means. Oh and you're also forgetting the fact that he could have easily gotten out of it if he didn't want to do it, by either turning her down, or just leaving via flying nimbus. Also it was outright stated that Chi-chi fell in love with Goku once they met again sometime before the demon king Piccolo arc. Also, you don't choose who you fall in love with, you don't even get to choose whether or not you fall out of love with someone love doesn't work like that.

Minmei, when Hikaru was gone, got over it easily too. Once or twice came the "is he okay?" But she pushed it aside until she saw him return with MISA.

What are you talking about? Minmei wasn't interested in Hikaru at all before the time skip, and after the time skip she had no idea that he was with Misa until the final episodes. You're not helping my doubts about you having seen SDF.

Plus, both girls had a strong fighting spirit. Minmei, despite seeing what horrible things the Zentradi could do, still sang to reach out to them, even - in DYRL - stood on a ramp like a TARGET where she could be killed and SANG. Chi-Chi is also the same way. When you get her started, she'll fight you till the end. It's obvious that Chinese women are strong. But remember that all women have hearts. Whilst Chi-Chi's wasn't broken, Minmei's was.

Minmei never got a chance to see the horrible things the Zentradi could do, because she was never on the front lines, and DYRL is a different continuity, and I doubt you've ever seen that too, with this comment. Minmei had to be convinced by Hikaru to sing the song, and the ramp was safely inside of the ship, they were using projectors, and holograms to display her image to the battlefield. No real fighting spirit was needed there.

[kujoe]

I'm going to avoid the Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z discussion due to its offtopic nature, but I'd like to mention that as far as Minmei and her role in the love triangle is concerned, the Robotech adaptation pretty much made me react kind of negatively to her.

Oh yes, you heard me right indeed... and I'm as guilty as charged. I watched Robotech first before the original Macross, and I've not even completely seen all of it in the original Japanese format. I didn't strongly hate her or anything, but it took the movie Do You Remember Love for me to fully appreciate her character and somewhat feel for her when she fails in love. She is quite different from her TV series counterpart however.

My memory of how her character is depicted in the Robotech adaptation is foggy at best, but with regard to characterization I assume she's more or less the same character in Macross?

[Ceci-chan]

Originally Posted by kujoe

I'm going to avoid the Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z discussion due to its offtopic nature, but I'd like to mention that as far as Minmei and her role in the love triangle is concerned, the Robotech adaptation pretty much made me react kind of negatively to her.

Oh yes, you heard me right indeed... and I'm as guilty as charged. I watched Robotech first before the original Macross, and I've not even completely seen all of it in the original Japanese format. I didn't strongly hate her or anything, but it took the movie Do You Remember Love for me to fully appreciate her character and somewhat feel for her when she fails in love. She is quite different from her TV series counterpart however.

My memory of how her character is depicted in the Robotech adaptation is foggy at best, but with regard to characterization I assume she's more or less the same character in Macross?

I first watched the Robotech adaption, also, and I wasn't a huge fan of either girl when I watched it. It was DYRL that made me fall for both girls and made the ending bittersweet. I had heard Ijima's "Do You Remember Love" before Mamegu's, and seeing the film along with it made it one of the best songs ever in Macross. ;A;
Well, at least, to me.

As for character similarity between the Japanese and English adaptions, I couldn't really tell you, since I've only seen the first episode of SDFM in Japanese so far.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by kujoe

I'm going to avoid the Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z discussion due to its offtopic nature, but I'd like to mention that as far as Minmei and her role in the love triangle is concerned, the Robotech adaptation pretty much made me react kind of negatively to her.

Oh yes, you heard me right indeed... and I'm as guilty as charged. I watched Robotech first before the original Macross, and I've not even completely seen all of it in the original Japanese format. I didn't strongly hate her or anything, but it took the movie Do You Remember Love for me to fully appreciate her character and somewhat feel for her when she fails in love. She is quite different from her TV series counterpart however.

My memory of how her character is depicted in the Robotech adaptation is foggy at best, but with regard to characterization I assume she's more or less the same character in Macross?

Well Minmei is more appreciative of Hikaru in DYRL than she was in SDF, as she recognizes the fact that Hikaru likes her, and returns his feelings. She also comes across as more mature in DYRL than she was SDF.

As for differences between the English version and the Japanese version. English version Minmei was annoying Japanese version Minmei behaved more like a young girl thrown into a war, she doesn't really take notice of Hikaru and takes him for granted, frequently hurting him without knowing.

[raile]

SDF Minmay was just not that into you, Hikaru.

DYRL Minmay otoh did, but she lost the (triangle again), but she did keep her stellar singing career. So everyone won.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by kujoe

My memory of how her character is depicted in the Robotech adaptation is foggy at best, but with regard to characterization I assume she's more or less the same character in Macross?

Not in the slightest. Carl Macek said in a 2001 interview that he deliberately made her more annoying than she was originally:

http://www.robotech.com/news/viewarticle.php?id=15

kurtkr Was it your intention for the Minmei character to be so annoying or did it just turn out that way?

Carl Macek says: It was always my belief that Minmei's immediate popularity onboard the SDF-1 was a bitter pill to swallow. Therefore, if her "talent" was marginal - but her "spirit" was high - it could show that even misguided personalities like "Minmei" could have a positive effect on people and dramatic situations. Melodrama is made up by extremes - and Robotech was played as melodrama - remember these characters are archetypes.

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

An opinion I had:

Okay, for a moment, take off your shipper goggles. I did when I found this thought entering my mind. Just be open-minded with this opinion please, as I may not have proof directly, but the scenes do add up to show this thought has structure to it. It isn’t like I just made this up, I thought about it long and hard over the last few days.

Episodes: 19-25

Spoiler for Remember this is just an OPINION!:

I removed my shipper goggles two days ago and watched #22 again. Then I noticed something that might’ve been overlooked by ALL AruSherri fans and Sheryl fans alike. It’s not actually the surrogate-mother thing, but rather a different thought that crossed my mind. Please just listen for a moment before you rant.

When I watched the episode back, I would watch the video first, then listen to the audio. And I noticed something very similar about these scenes that did pertain to Ranka. Before you rant that I didn’t remove my goggles, listen to me: is Sheryl the only one whose cried in front of Alto that week? No. Has he seen Sheryl weak before? Yes. So why is he so horrified? I’ll explain my opinion now.

First, we’ve all watched this episode countless times. Most of my friends (AruRan fans) considered the possibility of Alto seeing Sheryl as a surrogate-mother, but me, I see something more from this episode.

Flashback to #21 for a moment here. When Ranka leaves, Alto is chasing her, screaming for her not to go, then he holds not only a guilty expression as he watches her leave but a horrified expression, and then he speaks her name in breathless confusion, in utter shock. Now flashforward to #22 again. Sheryl is sobbing. Alto looks horrified and says her name in breathless confusion, in utter shock. Notice how similar his reaction is to the scene?

When Sheryl cries in #22, I think this was a wake-up call to Alto about Ranka from #20. Look back at it for a moment: Ranka cried over her music and singing. Sheryl did the same. Both are saying two opposite things though: Ranka wants to quit, Sheryl wants to continue to death. So what do they have in common? For one, Alto failed to ever ask Ranka why she cried in that scene. Another, he never confronted her on the matter, nor listened to her problems. So how is Sheryl a wake-up call to him about Ranka? He failed to be a good friend. When Ranka left, he realized that he had done something horribly wrong. I think, in a little way, that when she admitted love to him and said “goodbye,” he noticed that whatever he had done wrong would not be fixed easily. But when Sheryl starts crying in front of him, his expression is as horrified as when Ranka left, which leads me to believe he notices he’s done something wrong again. But with Sheryl, he can fix it. She’s not going anywhere.

How does this thought hold into the later moments when he sleeps with her? Well, for one thing, watch that scene back carefully: when she is shedding tears onto the floor, he looks at them, then the camera goes up to her open kimono, right where her “you-know-where” is nearly exposed. It’s obvious to me that scene was not just about romance. Like I said above: with Sheryl, he can fix the wrongs done. Ranka is gone, so he cannot unless she returns, but he understands that her “goodbye” is forever. Whether it was just a kiss or they truly slept together (which you can’t prove in the anime) is up to you, honestly. I see it where he could just kiss her and have removed his jacket. His clothes aren’t ruffled badly and the only difference in his uniform is the jacket draped over his shoulder. We don’t see a naked Sheryl in the anime nor proof, so they just kissed, really.

But this opinion does hold water!

At the end of #22, Alto confronts Ozma. Now, this does relate to Frontier more than Ranka, right? So how does this hold my opinion? Well, when Ozma left, he said words about Ranka choosing her own path and asking Alto where he would go now. Notice that Alto once again looks horrified as he remembers Ranka leaving in a flashback. Alto is still realizing he’s done things wrong. He screams in pure hatred at himself: for failing, for not noticing sooner of her pain, for not noticing Sheryl’s deeper pain, for not noticing her illness, and for just himself at being a complete fool.

In #23, when Sheryl is begging him to stay with her, he once again has that guilty expression. He accepts her words without any emotion. But I’m looking at the fact he says “I’ve never seen such a needy side of her.” Um, Alto… where haven’t you? How about #12 or #16? It’s obvious again that he failed to see any of her pain either.

Later, Alto is shown looking at the portrait that Nanase had drawn of Ranka in the movie. He remembers her leaving. He says “truly, I…”

You know, I actually laugh at this start of a sentence, as many of you AruSherri fans, or even us AruRan fans, think this would be where he says “I love Sheryl” or “I love Frontier” and even the “I wanted to protect you.” To be honest, I don’t see that anymore. To be fair, he could say those things, but honestly, the first would be rude to Ranka when she’s not even there. The second one would be more appropriate and the third one as well, but I see it differently.

For two episodes, he noticed he’s done something deathly wrong with Ranka. In #20, he demanded she sing to calm the Vajra. He knew what he meant then: “sing and calm the Vajra so we can destroy them and survive.” Even she knew his deeper meaning. But when she started sobbing, he was utterly confused. We’ve seen this before, right: with both girls? Yes. To me, it shows that he cannot see that either one has a flaw, just sees them as the girls he met almost a year ago. But in #21, this opinion holds most. After Ranka calls, he rushes to her side. But does he ask her about how she takes Nanase’s condition like all of you say? No. “Ranka, why didn’t you sing?” He doesn’t run to her side to comfort her, to be a friend, no. He runs to her side like he’s her manager. He doesn’t comfort her on her emotions, just her music. Instead of asking why she was upset or helping her shoulder the burden, he ignores the signs and takes her forced smile as a sign she’s perfectly fine. So, for two episodes, he noticed how horrible of a friend he was, even to Michael. He ignored all signs of deeper pains from all his friends around, drowning in his own demons – his mother, his father, and his past as an actor, the acting blood.

When he looks at her portrait, he looks upset, as if guilty and noticing his wrongs. This scene, to me, translates as “truly, I am so sorry.” Sheryl was his wake-up call to realize he’d treated Ranka wrongly.

Later, he speaks with Klan. Now, for a moment, drop that “he loves a lot of things” notion and just listen to my thoughts for a second.

When he speaks, he says he wanted to protect Ranka, that he’s been doing so ever since, “protecting.” Well, for one thing, if she was an excuse, that should’ve ended once she became friends with Michael, Luca, and Klan, as they could help her too. Then she became unimportant to him in #11, as it seems. I see that he considered her a friend in #3 and swore to protect her. Sadly, when he would fail to do so, he beat himself up and found himself unworthy of her. It doesn’t help that Brera pushes that in his face. But what has he protected if he failed so much? Himself.

I don’t see Alto as undecisive or loving his sky to the point of death or even Frontier is more important to him, but rather as he protected himself from an intimate relationship. In #13, he tells Ranka that if she doesn’t remember, she doesn’t want to. He’s always run away from his past and his father, probably afraid that if he returns, he’ll have to admit he was wrong. But with both girls, notice how when the relationship turns towards intimacy, he runs away. With Ranka, it was the kiss, the possibility that she loves him. With Sheryl, it was the full-on possibility that she might love him, that he might love her. He protects himself from a deeper relationship. This could be due to his mother, as it isn’t proven how she died, but it’s also probably because of his father and their shaky relationship. Also, Alto inherited his father’s attitude, really. When either one of the girls wants to quit singing, he tries to make them continue, just like his father: “that’s wrong! Do it again!” from #11. He ran away from any forms of love he held for either girl, whether friendship or romantic, and that harmed the both of them.

“I may have pretended not to notice things until now.” This is where the opinion really holds. Skip back to #21 and #22 again and notice that Alto held horrified expressions at both girls when they chose their own paths towards destruction and left him hanging. With Sheryl, he noticed he had done something horribly wrong with Ranka, had been a bad friend. With Ranka, he realized Sheryl was ill and needed his support. Each girl became a wake-up call to him. But it was when he realized he’d been avoiding the issues all along that he noticed he had lost his two closest friends. “I may have been running away.” And that is true. He ran away from the obvious situation, too lost in his own demons that he felt he couldn’t handle their problems. And in the end, he also failed to help Michael along as well, nor Luca or Nanase. He was a horrible friend to them all and he noticed it too.

“That’s why, if she becomes an enemy, if her songs bring about the end of us all, I would kill Ranka.” Yes, I will give the benefit of the doubt that he says that he will protect Frontier, but look at how upset he is. He holds the same horrified expression from the previous episodes. He realizes that he cannot help Ranka now. He has ruined whatever friendship he had with her. Sheryl notices it too, for she cries. It’s not just about Frontier to them, but that the both of them, even Klan, failed to realize they had pushed Ranka into her own pit of destruction by not listening to her voice, her reasons. They all heard her song but only Brera heard her heart crying out. Isn’t reality fun?

“Is that your love?” Honestly, look at this in the long run: he loves Frontier, he loves Ranka and Sheryl, he loves Michael, Luca, Nanase, and his mother and father. But for this moment, I see Alto’s upset expression, the guilt and sorrow on his face before he turns away and I realize that Klan is talking about Ranka more than Frontier. Rather than make Ranka suffer, he’d rather put her out of her misery, as he realizes he can’t fix their friendships now. That is why Klan is more upset too, as she realizes he cares deeply for Ranka but can’t save her. Sheryl knows it too. It’s not that Alto says he loves Ranka as a girlfriend, lover, or wife, but rather a person he cared for a lot and cannot help any longer. So he must kill her to save her. And, to him, that is the most upsetting thing of all, after all this time and effort he’d put in to protect her, he has to kill the person he swore to protect with his very life. That is upsetting.

In #24, I’ll give the benefit of the doubt to Sheryl, who requested that Alto save Ranka. But I look at the earlier portion of that episode for Alto’s emotions rather than the so-called “romantic” meeting of the two. We start out with Alto looking at the board with determination. Then that determination falls when the meeting is over. Now, back in #23, he said he would kill Ranka, but his expression here shows he still holds belief in Ranka. Instead of being determined that he will end the war, he looks upset as the meeting ends, as if he doesn’t truly want to kill her even for Frontier. Then he goes to see Sheryl.

Yes, it seems “romantic” if you don’t take off your goggles and look that Alto once again holds that guilty expression after the kiss. Once again, he wants to apologize. Not for rejecting her, nor for not responding to her kiss, but for all the wrongs he’s done. These moments are probably his last and he wants to give her his final words. And he did do Sheryl wrong in a lot of ways. But, like any person who might overanalyze, Sheryl assumes that Alto loves Ranka just as Ranka did her. She tells him not to tell her for she won’t be able to sing. Obviously, after Sheryl met and fell in love with Alto, her desire to sing became like Ranka’s: to sing for him. So she can understand Ranka’s broken heart, which is why #20 makes a lot of sense to me with the scene between them and the shoulder Sheryl gives to Ranka to cry on.

But when Ranka is revealed as the enemy and destroyed multiple ships of theirs, he should’ve known he had to kill her or risk losing Frontier. He knew he had to nuke her. So why approach her and try to enter her mind when he knew it was hopeless? It wasn’t about Sheryl’s request anymore. He still had belief in her, for one. But, the truth: he wanted to apologize. He wanted to explain why he was such a horrible friend. He wanted to try one last time to understand her, letting his walls fall. This is the first time he totally dropped himself open to one of them, connecting their souls together via the Vajra network. He never dropped himself for Sheryl, not this deep, for a conversation can easily be seen as lies, but he bared his soul to Ranka, as the connection is two-way, remember. But it is not literally by means of desiring to show her his love but rather to apologize and show her he does love her – as a person, as someone he can trust. After all they’d done, he owed her an apology.

I look at this episode as the long run of noticing his failures and amending them. For one, if he truly did love Sheryl all along, he led Ranka along and didn’t tell her. He allowed her to get attached emotionally to him. Regardless if he noticed her feelings or not, that is something you should always do. So either he did see her in a romantic light and it faded or he just saw her as a friend and loves Sheryl. But I see that he does think of Ranka as a romantic interest, after all, he does more for her than any of his other friends. Ranka is important to him. But that doesn’t change that he wasn’t a good friend either. He should’ve helped her, talked to her, asked her about her pain. He should’ve noticed that she’s too shy to speak her mind, that she was faltering. Instead, in #20, he basically says “shake it off, stand up and sing, help us kill these beasts!” He didn’t help her. If anything, he drove her to where she ended up. She couldn’t tell him about Ai-kun or her thoughts of the Vajra because he despised them, even before #20 came around. So, in the end, his flight towards her is to apologize and determine his suspicions might be correct of her true emotions.

One thing that gets on my nerves is that #25 is the first time he hears either girls’ cry for help. The entire time he’s been friends or a boyfriend to Ranka, he’s never actually noticed her true pain. Nor did he notice that Sheryl was truly ill. After all, Ranka’s showed to Sheryl and, likewise, Sheryl’s showed to Ranka. They both noticed the other had inner pain. Only Alto failed to see it. It’s not Ranka’s fault on the communication, instead, he doesn’t give the effort to learn about her emotions – another way he fails as a friend. But the same applies to Sheryl until the realization hits him. #13 was the first time he praised her or spoke of anything regarding her emotions.

But look back for a moment: he praises her. Does he mention her flaws? No. One thing even Sheryl noticed was how shook up she could get when she felt helpless in a situation. Instead, he talks about how she was when they met and how she proved him (and herself) wrong. He doesn’t see her flaws. He fails to see her pain, her inner conflict, her affections for him, all of it. Same with Sheryl. He fails to see her illness is deadly, her inner conflict, her love for him, all of it. He ignores it all. That’s a bad thing that just proves he has to learn to open up a lot if he plans to marry one of them.

In #25, this is repented for. He says “I heard it. Your soul was screaming out.” He finally noticed that she needed his help still and still loved him despite all he’d done. His drive to prove his affections for her (whether romantic or platonic) drove him to live despite Brera trying to kill him. He noticed that her heart was still heavy, that she needed his assurance that if she pulled away from her belief he would still hold her up and help her. And, when he breaks through to her – tells her to sing her true song – he gives her that assurance. When he broke her out of Galaxy’s control, they shared a heartful smile, one that he had shared with Sheryl just moments ago.

It’s obvious to me that if he does see either girl in a romantic light, his choices have led them to despair. He has to wake up and notice the things he has failed to see. And it started. He realized he was in the wrong and did everything he could to fix it.

Whether his affections for either girl was love or not is up to him. We’ll never know in the series state. But now that he’s seen Ranka does have flaws and she’s not the same girl he met a year ago, nor Sheryl, how will he react to either? After all, his eyes have been opened. And, if that’s not the best, he has his true sky to fly in.

Also, a little note: just because Alto slept with Sheryl doesn’t prove he loves her. You can have sex and not love the person. You can live with a person and not love them. You can share meals with a person and not love them. Same with Ranka. So it’s obvious that if either girl had the lead in his heart, he didn’t show it easily, as he chose to avoid an actually expression of love in the series and avoiding showing his affection truly. It would’ve been more romantic had Alto proposed to Sheryl in #22 instead of slept with her.

Now you can say what you want. Remember that this is just an opinion. Alto is a complicated person to read, honestly, as he thinks way too much about things that truly shouldn’t matter to him that much if they aren’t important (like his past). Phew. Hope you enjoyed. ^o^

I got a serious headache reading this fangirl post, and could feel reality slipping away and being replaced by fantasy, as your delusional views of different scenes, tried to drag me into said fantasy. He and Ranka never had any meaningful connection. She knew nothing about him, and had an image in her head about who and what he was, without trying to get to know him at all. Almost every single conversation they ever had(that we the viewers were shown), was about her. I'm sorry, but relationships don't work that way. Ranka doesn't yet have the emotional maturity for a relationship, especially when she and Alto are on two different levels. Hell, almost every scene that had them together, he was either saving her, or listening to her rant and rave about her life, or her singing. At least with Sheryl, there were some signs of learning about each other, and some chemistry being mixed around.

But alas, I'm just repeating some of the many, many points that have been posted here over the past couple of years.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

I got a serious headache reading this fangirl post, and could feel reality slipping away and being replaced by fantasy, as your delusional views of different scenes, tried to drag me into said fantasy. He and Ranka never had any meaningful connection. She knew nothing about him, and had an image in her head about who and what he was, without trying to get to know him at all. Almost every single conversation they ever had(that we the viewers were shown), was about her. I'm sorry, but relationships don't work that way. Ranka doesn't yet have the emotional maturity for a relationship, especially when she and Alto are on two different levels. Hell, almost every scene that had them together, he was either saving her, or listening to her rant and rave about her life, or her singing. At least with Sheryl, there were some signs of learning about each other, and some chemistry being mixed around.

But alas, I'm just repeating some of the many, many points that have been posted here over the past couple of years.

I think you forget that Ranka's image of him faded after EP1!! Geez, you all let that one continue on forever like it's the truth. Honestly, Ranka sees him as handsome after she finds out he's NOT a woman. It's not that she has an "image" in her mind forever. No, she tries to connect, he even wants her to, but the time never seems right for them two. Ranka is also SHY! Oh yes, I can picture it now "Alto-kun, I like you" -///- "I mean... forget that." Alto goes "huh?" And saying that she rants and raves everytime they see each other makes her sound conceited. And actually, not EVERY conversation was about her. Actually, whenever a conversation comes up about her after the first few episodes, it's brought up by HIM, not her. Hah, to be honest with you, he barely manages to save her. Actually, they spend more time together than you think. After all, in the series, they became quite close together where they could hold a cemented conversation - even better than Michael, Luca, or Nanase. They were quite close together. Plus, they had conversations without fights like he does with Sheryl a lot. THAT shows they have been able to connect and grow.

Don't forget the fact that it was Alto who helped Ranka grow up and sing. It was also RANKA who Alto chose to fight for. They each chose their career with the strength the other gave them. That's equality.

[teelatsuki]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I think you forget that Ranka's image of him faded after EP1!! Geez, you all let that one continue on forever like it's the truth. Honestly, Ranka sees him as handsome after she finds out he's NOT a woman. It's not that she has an "image" in her mind forever. No, she tries to connect, he even wants her to, but the time never seems right for them two. Ranka is also SHY! Oh yes, I can picture it now "Alto-kun, I like you" -///- "I mean... forget that." Alto goes "huh?" And saying that she rants and raves everytime they see each other makes her sound conceited. And actually, not EVERY conversation was about her. Actually, whenever a conversation comes up about her after the first few episodes, it's brought up by HIM, not her. Hah, to be honest with you, he barely manages to save her. Actually, they spend more time together than you think. After all, in the series, they became quite close together where they could hold a cemented conversation - even better than Michael, Luca, or Nanase. They were quite close together. Plus, they had conversations without fights like he does with Sheryl a lot. THAT shows they have been able to connect and grow.

Don't forget the fact that it was Alto who helped Ranka grow up and sing. It was also RANKA who Alto chose to fight for. They each chose their career with the strength the other gave them. That's equality.

I think you mean with the strength that Sheryl gave them.
And no it took several episodes for her to see Alto as other thing than her image of him. Yes there was interest from alto at first since Ranka was nice, but from Ranka is "enough of me let's talk about you, what do you think of me?"

And they didn't became close if they have there wouldn't be so many misundersatndings between them, and also the triangle was far more important for the series than friendship wich is why there isn't more time showing alto an say Michael talking but you knew it was there because Alto was at SMS most of the time training plus they were roomates.
Also it's to notice that fighting is quite healtly in relationships as long as it isn't too serious. And once again Alto and Ranka NEVER connected that was the whole point of chapter 21.

Also Alto used Ranka as an excuse and he said so himself, he could have chosed anything else to fight for if she weren't there.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I think you forget that Ranka's image of him faded after EP1!!

Actually, it didn't - it lasts through to episode 21 (if not the end), at least in part. Proof is on page 65 of 2059: Memories, which I don't have time to upload.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Don't forget the fact that it was Alto who helped Ranka grow up and sing. It was also RANKA who Alto chose to fight for. They each chose their career with the strength the other gave them. That's equality.

As teelatsuki said, you're missing the fact that it was SHERYL who got them both to do that (I might be remembering the novel here, or an interview, but it was written somewhere that Alto chose to push Ranka, and himself, because he was inspired by Sheryl in some way).

[MichiNekoChan]

Originally Posted by karice67

Actually, it didn't - it lasts through to episode 21 (if not the end), at least in part.

Yes because honestly, I lost count how many times *KIRAKIRA/SPARLKLY* Alto from episode 1 was shown through the course of the season.

(at least thats how I'm interpreting Ranka's "image" of him)

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I think you forget that Ranka's image of him faded after EP1!! Geez, you all let that one continue on forever like it's the truth. Honestly, Ranka sees him as handsome after she finds out he's NOT a woman. It's not that she has an "image" in her mind forever. No, she tries to connect, he even wants her to, but the time never seems right for them two. Ranka is also SHY! Oh yes, I can picture it now "Alto-kun, I like you" -///- "I mean... forget that." Alto goes "huh?" And saying that she rants and raves everytime they see each other makes her sound conceited. And actually, not EVERY conversation was about her. Actually, whenever a conversation comes up about her after the first few episodes, it's brought up by HIM, not her. Hah, to be honest with you, he barely manages to save her. Actually, they spend more time together than you think. After all, in the series, they became quite close together where they could hold a cemented conversation - even better than Michael, Luca, or Nanase. They were quite close together. Plus, they had conversations without fights like he does with Sheryl a lot. THAT shows they have been able to connect and grow.

Don't forget the fact that it was Alto who helped Ranka grow up and sing. It was also RANKA who Alto chose to fight for. They each chose their career with the strength the other gave them. That's equality.

You remind me so much of all the other fangirls I've seen over the years. Ranka and Alto were never CLOSE. Not in the way that you wish they were.

As for an example of her impossible and fantasy view of him, remember when Ranka was all gushy when he made that heart in the sky during her concert, thinking it was for her from him, without ANY evidence that he truly liked her that way. And forgetting that it was his JOB to make entertainment in the sky for her concert and the fans(you know, like he did with Sheryl in episode One???). They'd never kissed(outside of acting in a movie), or even held hands. There was no talk at all between them about romance or relationships, or much in the way of sexual tension(I believe the only time they had sexual tension was on the one planet for one scene, compared to the dozens the he and Sheryl had throughout the series).

Someday, you will look back at these earlier posts, and wonder WTF were you thinking...