Babylon Series

[Cosmic Eagle]

Can't help thinking of Kiara Sesshouin = Magase Ai with that kind of aura the latter has lol


if she's a supernatural entity or something, fine actually, depending how well it fits the narrative theme. Just don't do something jarring like have her be the product of a secret black project that the corrupt government cabal at the center of the plot is responsible for. That would be very anticlimatic

[Nachtwandler]

It is funny that Ai has the same seiyuu as Chidori from FMP.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Or unless the author is pulling an unreliable narrator + Lelouch's ability to foresee dialogues and Ai was never there on that street, at least not at that precise time.

I really hope that's not the case, but I'm still not convinced I should trust this author.

Could be a recorded conversation indeed. It was very generic from Ai's side so it doesn't even have to include a supernatural ability to foresee dialogues. Just some imagination and some cold reading along with controlling the conversation is good enough. She had completely control over how to drive it so it'd actually be ridiculously easy, especially given that she had already profiled him before and knew that he is pretty easy to corner on touchy subjects. However, I don't think the girl is Ai. It'd be really boring if she was.

Show just isn't working for me as much as I want it to. I am willing to stick with it some more but it's just missing something that I can't quite put my finger on. The characters are kinda bland so far (apart from Ai, and her uncle this ep) and there's really nothing too exciting going on. Perhaps it's because I already have strong opinions on the "controversial" topic that the show is trying to form a conflict around (I am very pro-euthanasia) or perhaps it's because it's simultaneously asking me to suspend my disbelief and accept that something supernatural is going on while also trying to play make-believe totally-realistic bureaucracy (it's doing the latter very wrong and only ticking cliches imo) but I hope the show focuses more on the characters rather than the system as that's where the show has done better so far and is also generally more interesting than yet another take on corrupt politics.

[Jan-Poo]

Itsuki never said anything about euthanasia, nobody actually knows for sure what he means when he says that he wants to make suicide legal.

The sentence alone is meaningless, since suicide in itself is not illegal in Japan or most parts of the world. If suicide was illegal, people that attempted suicide and failed would be jailed or fined, as it happens for attempted murder, attempted robbery and so on. So what Itsuki actually wants to make legal is anyone's guess, and the idea that he wants to make assisted suicide legal is just one of those guesses. It could be something entirely different. Or he could be simply blissfully unaware that what he wants to make legal is legal already.

[Grifis]

As far as I'm concerned, this has more pull than Psycho Pass (while both are pleasing me aesthetically.) There's something exciting about the witch hunt.

[Fevvers]

While I’m not sure if this show will really delve into the supernatural (or if this is a misdirection) but I’m seeing Tomie vibes from Ai. It worked for Tomie since from the get-go the supernatural aspect was obvious, in Babylon, well.. not so much. I’ll give it a few more episodes. Sucks though, was hoping for this to have a multi layered female villain at least since the concept seems interesting...

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Itsuki never said anything about euthanasia, nobody actually knows for sure what he means when he says that he wants to make suicide legal.

The sentence alone is meaningless, since suicide in itself is not illegal in Japan or most parts of the world. If suicide was illegal, people that attempted suicide and failed would be jailed or fined, as it happens for attempted murder, attempted robbery and so on. So what Itsuki actually wants to make legal is anyone's guess, and the idea that he wants to make assisted suicide legal is just one of those guesses. It could be something entirely different. Or he could be simply blissfully unaware that what he wants to make legal is legal already.

Right, but that doesn't change that the show itself is presenting it as a debate on Euthanasia for now if you take it at face value and I don't care much for it and I probably care less for whatever other pretentious shit Itsuki actually means with it. The show is presumably going for something more sinister with Itsuki although his argument for now can be summed up as more or less that death is a good thing because reasons and therefore suicide should not only be legal but actively encouraged and celebrated which pretty much requires making assisted suicide legal. Unless something major changes, Itsuki is a fairly uninteresting character for me even as his ambitions remain ambiguous as he just reeks of self-insert pretentiousness / pseudo-intellectualism to me. Granted, it's an unfair assessment to make this early when he has barely got any screen-time, so we will see if that changes with the next episode when he'll supposedly get to be on the spotlight a little more with the debate.

[Grifis]

When the guy wanted to make suicide legal, I thought I can support that.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Itsuki never said anything about euthanasia, nobody actually knows for sure what he means when he says that he wants to make suicide legal.

The sentence alone is meaningless, since suicide in itself is not illegal in Japan or most parts of the world. If suicide was illegal, people that attempted suicide and failed would be jailed or fined, as it happens for attempted murder, attempted robbery and so on. So what Itsuki actually wants to make legal is anyone's guess, and the idea that he wants to make assisted suicide legal is just one of those guesses. It could be something entirely different. Or he could be simply blissfully unaware that what he wants to make legal is legal already.

Just as a minor point: there have been points in time when suicide itself has been considered illegal and people who attempted it and failed got tried for it. Yes it was stupid but, for example, in a heavy catholic country it wouldn't be unreasonable to have the law follow the idea that suicide is a sin and take the leap of making it actually illegal despite how much sense it makes. Link

[Tenzen12]

Bit dissapointed with majority of politicians in that debate. They had good point, but no system of around their core beliefs to deal with very basics counter arguments which is bit stupid if not unheard in real life.

Good that Hiasa seems to ber real person and not just Magase in disguise. Regardless I can easily imagine ending where Seizaki ultimately loose to her influence and commit suicide himself (even if it means leaving family behind). I didn't see that in many anime/novels but these kind of stories are relatively common in west short novels and story gives lot of vibes of it.

Anyway I don't see what is wrong about charging suicide as crime. It is difficult technically as if it succeed perpatator cannont be held responsible and guys who actually commit suicide don't giver a crap about people they leave behind in first place (so there is no point deamnd reparations for damage from them), but despite of practical difficulties idea itself is sound.

[Anh_Minh]

One of my problems with this series is that it keeps having guy friends of the MC suicide, but we haven't spent enough time with them for me to even remember who they are. Except the first one.

[Wandering Soul]

Maybe those politicians should have done more research on the kid they decided to support to the point of canceling their own candidacy.

[Anh_Minh]

Yeah, that was an incredibly stupid cherry on top of an absolutely dumb cake of making the kid a candidate.

Also, they acknowledged that suicide isn't illegal in the first place. So what's that new law about? Legalizing aiding suicide?

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah, that was an incredibly stupid cherry on top of an absolutely dumb cake of making the kid a candidate.

Also, they acknowledged that suicide isn't illegal in the first place. So what's that new law about? Legalizing aiding suicide?

I think the law is really more about de-stigmatizing suicide. Itsuki said it himself, by making it legal it's no longer just about running away, but it now becomes a legitimate choice. A choice that someone can openly talk to and discuss with other people about. It would force the whole nation to discuss and confront the elephant in the room. Also, there's a big difference between something technically not being illegal, verses something actually being legal. When the government makes something legal, that also means it can be regulated. And, the government can set up things like safe suicide homes, so people who want to commit suicide can first try to get help, and if they still want to are at least not jumping in front of cars, off of buildings, off of bridges, or jumping in front of trains. You know killing themselves in ways that inconvenience other people.

About the episode itself, yeah the politicians tried, but you could see Itsuki's counterarguments from a mile away. The "if you make it legal everyone will want to do it" argument always makes me laugh though. But, yes, how in the world did they not check this kids background.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Good that Hiasa seems to ber real person and not just Magase in disguise. Regardless I can easily imagine ending where Seizaki ultimately loose to her influence and commit suicide himself (even if it means leaving family behind). I didn't see that in many anime/novels but these kind of stories are relatively common in west short novels and story gives lot of vibes of it.

It would have been hard for Hiasa and Ai to be the same person since they both have tractable histories that not only makes it hard for her to be in two places at once, at least as far as we know, but Ai would have known many years in advanced that she would be partnered with Zen which didn't happen by Hiasa's choice.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

One of my problems with this series is that it keeps having guy friends of the MC suicide, but we haven't spent enough time with them for me to even remember who they are. Except the first one.

There only been two deaths of people Zen actually knew tho. Usually writers who kill off characters you barely are expecting their deaths to affect you personally as a viewer to begin with. The point is have empathize with Zen who you should so kind of investment with. A colleague whom you worked with that dies sucks for anyone in that kind of position so it would be natural for Zen to be emotional about it and they feel for him dealing with the fallout from that in general.

Originally Posted by Wandering Soul

Maybe those politicians should have done more research on the kid they decided to support to the point of canceling their own candidacy.

Wasn't Nomaru the only one who did so? But yeah especially from what supposed to be a shrewd individual. He even brought his mother who would have or should have told him beforehand unless Itsuki predicted and made arrangements.

But really, Nomaru could played the emotional appeal gambit without having the kid replace him.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Also, they acknowledged that suicide isn't illegal in the first place. So what's that new law about? Legalizing aiding suicide?

As Cloudedmind mentioned, this is acknowledged in the show and why legality in itself actually isn't important. What Itsuki is trying to do here is something usually taken as given or not talked about much at all (at least positively) an actual discussing point. It's merely a springboard to a larger discussion.

My guess his ultimate goal is to increase the suspectablitly who might be on edge considering it due to harsh living conditions and normalizing idea of killing yourself for any reason even among healthy mind people. Remember the contexts of suicides here so far, all them have happened to normal people or those who weren't prone to such thoughts with no commonility between them. Ai clearly behind the abnormality of this and I think this might be a step for her spread her influence. If she is supernatural being or has some kind of ability cause people to suicide it's might limited in some way. She perhaps needs to reduce or remove the common people have towards the idea for her better manipulate large amounts of people.

[Grifis]

Uh oh. Someone is right about Itsuki being charismatic. I think I've fallen for his charms.

[Jan-Poo]

The whole debate was surreal, it seems that nobody could make the distinction between what is "legal" and what is "socially acceptable".

There are several things that are legal but at the same time frowned upon by society. For example cheating on your girlfriend or boyfriend is generally frowned upon by society but there is absolutely no law (in most countries at least) that makes it illegal.

What Itsuki seems to want to do is using a law to change the view of society toward suicide, but that's simply outside the scope of what a legal system does.

And at any rate laws are not meant to list everything that is legal, laws are meant to set rules and list what is not legal. A law that simply states on a purely ideological manner that "suicide is legal" doesn't make any more sense than a law that states that "breathing air is legal". At best he could eliminate a law that says that "suicide is illegal", the problem is that such law doesn't exist in Japan.


But, this isn't the only facepalm moment of this episode, I just can't fathom exactly what Seizaki is planning to do after he kidnaps Itsuki. Let's not even talk about the fact he would commit a grave crime, what is he going to do with Itsuki after that? Does he plan to keep him in a basement for the rest of his life? Is he planning to kill him? Is he just thinking that he could release him after that and that at that point he would magically stop working on his plan and that he wouldn't press charge against him and everyone that helped him?

[OH&S]

Ok. After EP6, the facade of this series has completely broken down.

In a procedural drama about adults, crime and politics, why were all the adults (minus Itsuki) acting like complete idiots?

The entire existence of Magase being a shape-shifting, intellectual rapist that drives people to suicide was already stretching it, but this episode...

• Planning to kidnap a politician? (Probably just until after the election, but still...)
• Equating suicide to marijuana usage? (Its the black market that's the issue)
• Pointing out the logical fallacy but letting the argument continue regardless? (Challenge him, dammit!)
• Appealing to emotion? (Though I guess someone had to).
• Only one question/remark from each person on the against side? (Where's the debate!?)
• Not doing a simple background check on the boy you're planning to prop up in an election? (It was so obvious that was going to backfire).

Maybe I've just lost the plot. What exactly does this suicide law actually enable if its not illegal in the first place? And what's the intent? Does it cover Euthanasia and people in exacerbating circumstances like a painful terminal illness?

---

It was nice to finally see Seizaki's wife. Hope Magase doesn't do anything to her.

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Meh. Absolutely disappointing episode. Nobody did anything sensible and the whole debate was a joke that conflated legality, morality and social stigma as Jan-poo has eloquently put a couple of posts above.

It made no sense where MC was going with the kidnap Itsuki plan nor why everyone would just go along with him (if the show was going for a realism angle, there should have been at least a couple conscientious objector even if they wouldn't arrest him or foil his plan otherwise) but I guess we won't find out now because of the reveal with the kid.

The kid thing was not only totally predictable the moment he was brought in (this show relies on such cheap happenstance that it was practically a guarantee the kid was related to Itsuki last episode already, and made certain with his appearance in the debate) but also remarkably stupid. Surely a shadow council of politicians that wish to run a testing ground for new world order would vet their choices for candidates, right? Nope, not with Itsuki and not with his son. Now it's one thing to ask the ask the viewers to suspend disbelief that a charming young man managed to swindle some politicians who viewed him only as a pawn and not a threat, but it's another to ask the viewers to buy that the same politicians would gamble their position so readily without at least checking the identity of their next pawn.

All around stupid. And pretentious.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The whole debate was surreal, it seems that nobody could make the distinction between what is "legal" and what is "socially acceptable".

There are several things that are legal but at the same time frowned upon by society. For example cheating on your girlfriend or boyfriend is generally frowned upon by society but there is absolutely no law (in most countries at least) that makes it illegal.

What Itsuki seems to want to do is using a law to change the view of society toward suicide, but that's simply outside the scope of what a legal system does.

And at any rate laws are not meant to list everything that is legal, laws are meant to set rules and list what is not legal. A law that simply states on a purely ideological manner that "suicide is legal" doesn't make any more sense than a law that states that "breathing air is legal". At best he could eliminate a law that says that "suicide is illegal", the problem is that such law doesn't exist in Japan.

Because in a lot of people's minds the two things are often linked. Yes, there's a difference, but we all know people often vote from a moral, ethical, and what they themselves may deem socially acceptable, point of view. But, yes one of them could have made the argument that even if you make suicide legal, that doesn't mean it will suddenly become socially acceptable. But, isn't that also why Itsuki is having the people vote on it? Or at least he's running on the platform of making suicide legal, so it can be viewed that anyone who votes for him, agrees with his proposal. So, he isn't completely banking on the law itself changing people's attitudes, but that the whole discussion up to the vote will.

Originally Posted by OH&S

Ok. After EP6, the facade of this series has completely broken down.

In a procedural drama about adults, crime and politics, why were all the adults (minus Itsuki) acting like complete idiots?

The entire existence of Magase being a shape-shifting, intellectual rapist that drives people to suicide was already stretching it, but this episode...

• Planning to kidnap a politician? (Probably just until after the election, but still...)
• Equating suicide to marijuana usage? (Its the black market that's the issue)
• Pointing out the logical fallacy but letting the argument continue regardless? (Challenge him, dammit!)
• Appealing to emotion? (Though I guess someone had to).
• Only one question/remark from each person on the against side? (Where's the debate!?)
• Not doing a simple background check on the boy you're planning to prop up in an election? (It was so obvious that was going to backfire).

Maybe I've just lost the plot. What exactly does this suicide law actually enable if its not illegal in the first place? And what's the intent? Does it cover Euthanasia and people in exacerbating circumstances like a painful terminal illness?

---

It was nice to finally see Seizaki's wife. Hope Magase doesn't do anything to her.

In regards to your second point. Black markets only exist if something is illegal. If you can legally engage in an activity there's no need to take it underground. So, the black market isn't always the problem. Sometimes the legality of something is. Besides, that wasn't even why Itsuki brought up that point. He was just countering the other guys argument that legalizing suicide could increase it's frequency, and Itsuki pointed out that marijuana use didn't suddenly skyrocket just because Canada made it legal, same with some other countries, and places.

And your fourth point. ALL politicians appeal to people's emotions. You can have the greatest plans in the world, but if you can't get people emotionally behind you, you'll get nowhere. And, as Trump proved you can have practically 0 practical plans, but if you can get people emotionally behind you, you can become the President.