(CR) Hibike! Euphonium Season 2

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by karice67

...

I've been meaning to ask what you thought about the insistence from Hazuki and Midori and Reina, that Kumiko must be in love with Shuuichi - despite Kumiko's own protestations that he is a friend? An important friend but not a romantic interest. Kumiko tells them and her cactus: "Our relationship isn't like that" when she reflects on her relationship with Shuuichi.

I'm not commenting on Shuuichi but asking this purely from the perspective of your earlier comments about the representation of a-romantic people in fiction.

To me it seems like one of the things a-romantics dislike perhaps more than anything. The suggestion that they must be in love with people with whom they can hold a conversation. The repeated suggestion that there is something other than friendship at the root of their close relationships with certain friends - according to other friends.

This is a genuine question and I want to assure you beforehand that have no intention to deviate from this specific topic. Platonic friendship and the way these are treated by other friends.

[deadite]

Its always redirecting me to the sign in page. Maybe you can pm the link?

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by karice67

That's really weird...because I'm not signed in to linkedin or anything...

Hang on, I'll see if I can find the post's permanent link...

The link you posted works for me.

"It’s 2017. Why are we still telling women to act like men at work?" by Sallie Krawcheck. Mentioned in case that additional info helps others find it.
I'll read it later and get back to you on that topic...

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by karice67

Sorry, does it work now?

Works for me.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto

I've been meaning to ask what you thought about the insistence from Hazuki and Midori and Reina, that Kumiko must be in love with Shuuichi - despite Kumiko's own protestations that he is a friend? An important friend but not a romantic interest. Kumiko tells them and her cactus: "Our relationship isn't like that" when she reflects on her relationship with Shuuichi.

I'm not commenting on Shuuichi but asking this purely from the perspective of your earlier comments about the representation of a-romantic people in fiction.

To me it seems like one of the things a-romantics dislike perhaps more than anything. The suggestion that they must be in love with people with whom they can hold a conversation. The repeated suggestion that there is something other than friendship at the root of their close relationships- according to other friends.

The thing is, those protestations aren't the only thing she does. It's the rest of her behaviour--the way she looks unhappy and grips Reina's hand after she tells Shuuichi to go listen to Hazuki, the way she responds to Reina when asked about "Tsukamoto," the way she acts around Shuuichi in season 2--that tells me Kumiko is likely to be interested in him. And that's probably why her friends keep asking, because they sense the same thing.

Heck, the scene where she talks to her cactus about him? I read it as Kumiko trying to convince herself that "they're just friends." If she really wasn't concerned that she might think of Shuuichi as potentially being more, then I'd say that she wouldn't even have bothered trying to reason it out with her cactus.

Oh, and in this case, I'm talking about the emotional side of their relationship, rather than physical closeness. Whatever Kumiko ends up working out Shuuichi is to her, and what kind of label she wants to stick on their relationship, I think it's clear that they're very close emotionally. To be honest, I don't really care what it ends up being, but Kumiko needs to work it out. And that's all I really have to say on the relationship.

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by karice67

...

The situations are all ambiguous though and I don't really want to get into that.

I'm asking purely as an abstract from the perspective that Kumiko might in fact be sincere in her words that she does indeed want to remain friends with Shuuichi.

How do a-romantics view the behaviour of Kumiko's other friends in contrast to Kumiko's own insistence that they just aren't like that. He is a friend but her attachment to him is without any romantic interest - just as she says. Sincerely. Honestly. Repeatedly. But the friends, and possibly relatives, just don't drop the suggestive comments and open refusals to take her word for it....

If the series can be said to be about friendship that seems a very important point and I imagine something a-romantics wouldn't see as a very positive depiction especially if in the end the person who repeatedly stated no romantic interest starts dating the person she insisted was a friend but not a romantic interest.

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

...

Hashimoto-sensei had not known Mizore longer than Niiyama-sensei. In fact he had spent less time with Mizore than Niiyama had spent with Mizore because Mizore is in her section. Yet it is his observation in general practice which prompts her into approaching Mizore and finally make Mizore aim even higher.. Why wasn’t Niiyama cast to make that call herself? Out of her own initiative.

Why wasn’t a Satomi Niiyama hired directly as temporary substitute teacher? Hypotheticals.

Tohru Taki, on the verge of retirement, is sympathetic to his son’s situation but is not really seeing any change in his son’s mourning. Remembering how rebellious his son had been gives him an other reason to allow him more time to cope with the tragic loss of his young wife. He would like his son to succeed him but right now it is still too much of a gamble to recommend his son to the school.

Tohru Taki in stead approaches Niiyama-sensei about the position. Niiyama-sensei, who has been coming around frequently to check on her recently widowed friend whom she has known since university. His father had met her before and they talked about music and her career -as one professional musician to an other- at the funeral of his daughter-in-law. A young wife whose career had been cut short by a sudden illness. Unexpected given her health.

Tohru Taki is sympathetic to women’s causes. When the school asks for his advise for the temporary replacement of Rikako-sensei, who is scheduled for maternity leave, he suggests Niiyama as a candidate. He also suggests an other friend of his son Masahiro Hashimoto but expresses his preference for Hiiyama. The school decides that Niiyama is the more suitable substitute for the temporary position.

Niiyama-sensei was offered as an example of a positively portrayed adult woman. I find flaws in her portrayal. The flaw I identify is that some of Niiyama’s behaviour mirrors a troublesome aspect, a stereotypical aspect. The idea that men lead and women follow. Hashimoto-sensei’s mind reading set Niiyama-sensei in motion. He just happens to be a man. He leads she follows.

Taki-sensei replaced two women who could have been portrayed positively. They weren’t.
He replaced two women whose roles as music teachers and concert band advisors they could have played themselves. They could have moved the scenario one generation earlier.
None of those changes would have made the series any more complicated.

Do you have any other examples to offer for evaluation?

Do you know why Midori transferred to Kitauji?

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto

The situations are all ambiguous though and I don't really want to get into that.

I'm asking purely as an abstract from the perspective that Kumiko might in fact be sincere in her words that she does indeed want to remain friends with Shhuichi.

How do a-romantics view the behaviour of Kumiko's other friends in contrast to Kumiko's own insistence that they just aren't like that. He is a friend but her attachment to him is without any romantic interest - just as she says. Sincerely. Honestly. But the friends, and possibly relatives just don't drop the suggestive comments and open refusals to take her word for it....

That's the thing, though. It's not ambiguous to her friends, so I don't think Kumiko can be used to illustrate the kind of situation you're describing. *shrugs*

Also, re: this

Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto

The idea that men lead and women follow.

Please read and consider the article I linked with regards to this idea in particular.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto

Hashimoto-sensei had not known Mizore longer than Niiyama-sensei. In fact he had spent less time with Mizore than Niiyama had spent with Mizore because Mizore is in her section. Yet it is his observation in general practice which prompts her into approaching Mizore and finally make Mizore aim even higher.. Why wasn’t Niiyama cast to make that call herself? Out of her own initiative.

Illuminati.

No really, why does it have to be her? You provide no reason that it should be that way other than to fulfill an expectation.

Why wasn’t a Satomi Niiyama hired directly as temporary substitute teacher? Hypotheticals.

Tohru Taki, on the verge of retirement, is sympathetic to his son’s situation but is not really seeing any change in his son’s mourning. Remembering how rebellious his son had been gives him an other reason to allow him more time to cope with the tragic loss of his young wife. He would like his son to succeed him but right now it is still too much of a gamble to recommend his son to the school.

Tohru Taki in stead approaches Niiyama-sensei about the position. Niiyama-sensei, who has been coming around frequently to check on her recently widowed friend whom she has known since university. His father had met her before and they talked about music and her career -as one professional musician to an other- at the funeral of his daughter-in-law. A young wife whose career had been cut short by a sudden illness. Unexpected given her health.

Tohru Taki is sympathetic to women’s causes. When the school asks for his advise for the temporary replacement of Rikako-sensei, who is scheduled for maternity leave, he suggests Niiyama as a candidate. He also suggests an other friend of his son Masahiro Hashimoto but expresses his preference for Hiiyama. The school decides that Niiyama is the more suitable substitute for the temporary position.

What does this rambling have to do with anything?

Niiyama-sensei was offered as an example of a positively portrayed adult woman. I find flaws in her portrayal. The flaw I identify is that some of Niiyama’s behaviour mirrors a troublesome aspect, a stereotypical aspect. The idea that men lead and women follow. Hashimoto-sensei’s mind reading set Niiyama-sensei in motion. He just happens to be a man. He leads she follows.

Repeating the same thing doesn't make it true. Correlation doesn't apply causation. Flawed portrayals do not invalidate their existence. You found flaws because you over-analyzed a subtitled line and inserted your own expectations.

Taki-sensei replaced two women who could have been portrayed positively. They weren’t.
He replaced two women whose roles as music teachers and concert band advisors they could have played themselves. They could have moved the scenario one generation earlier.
None of those changes would have made the series any more complicated.

So? Whatever teacher's existence had to have excluded the existence of other teachers. If Taki was replaced by one of them, then would you complain that why a competent man was replaced? Or do we also have to run down the list of groups of people that aren't represented-- trangender, genderfluid characters. I mean I'm sure your male/female dichotomy has its limits if we want to continue this postmodern nonsense.

Do you have any other examples to offer for evaluation?

Being a series where the adults are limited in scope, I don't see how that's even relevant.

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by karice67

...

We disagree on the ambiguity. *shrugs* back. Mirrors again but Ravel omitted this time.

Thanks, for Sallie Krawcheck's essay, it was an interesting read. Read it before posting that reply though.

I think Satomi Niiyama would have been a wonderful substitute teacher. Not perfect but then again, who is?

I think casting Taki's unnamed wife as his father's successor would have worked out just fine. What do you think?

Do you have some thoughts on Orpheus, Prince Igor or Undine, or Kwaidan ...

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

...

I've edited my comment above to quote why you considered it unlikely that Niiyama could have picked up on Mizore's room for improvement.
In part you wrote: "Assuming and accepting a ceiling", why yes, that's what people do to people that they don't know that well." and you went on by suggesting that picking up the cue would be akin to mind reading.
That's why I wrote that Hashimoto knew her less than Niiyama did. He didn't need mind reading to notice - eventhough he spent less time with Mizore. Niiyama knew her better but didn't notice. Do you understand that your attempted excuse for the assumption of a ceiling doesn't apply?

Do you know why Midori transferred to Kitauji?

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto

Thanks, for Sallie Krawcheck's essay, it was an interesting read. Read it before posting that reply though.

So I can explicitly point out that, by demanding that Niiyama adhere to your idea of what a leader should be (i.e. the kind of leader that a man is), you are propagating a view that only exacerbates the issue of gender inequality?

And that's not even addressing the other problem I have with what you are trying to argue, which is that you're nitpicking on something that has little relevance to the main themes and main story, and ignoring what the show actually did instead.

Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto

Do you have some thoughts on Orpheus, Prince Igor or Undine, or Kwaidan ...

No, because I don't see them as relevant to what I'm interested in wrt this story.

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by karice67

...

An edit to a previous comment you might not have read yet.

If the series can be said to be about friendship that seems a very important point and I imagine something a-romantics wouldn't see as a very positive depiction especially if in the end the person who repeatedly stated no romantic interest starts dating the person she insisted was a friend but not a romantic interest.

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by karice67

So I can explicitly point out that, by demanding that Niiyama adhere to your idea of what a leader should be (i.e. the kind of leader that a man is), you are propagating a view that only exacerbates the issue of gender inequality?

And that's not even addressing the other problem I have with what you are trying to argue, which is that you're nitpicking on something that has little relevance to the main themes and main story, and ignoring what the show actually did instead.


No, because I don't see them as relevant to what I'm interested in wrt this story.

Sure you can. We'd just be in disagreement on the interpretation of certain actions, the relevance of certain details and the themes we see and hear in the series.

Niiyama picking up cues directly within her view or taking the initiative in encouraging Mizore to reach higher could have been done in accordance with her personality.

I think having this conversation is actually quite useful for this very purpose.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto

I've edited my comment above to quote why you considered it unlikely that Niiyama could have picked up on Mizore's room for improvement.
In part you wrote: "Assuming and accepting a ceiling", why yes, that's what people do to people that they don't know that well." and you went on by suggesting that picking up the cue would be akin to mind reading.
That's why I wrote that Hashimoto knew her less than Niiyama did. He didn't need mind reading to notice - eventhough he spent less time with Mizore. Niiyama knew her better but didn't notice. Do you understand that your attempted excuse for the assumption of a ceiling doesn't apply?

The full quote of mine was

She wasn't psychic about Mizore, or she's not perfect

Again, convenient exclusions.

Considering that you don't seem to be able to quote either the anime or other people properly without loading up your own imaginings (unless it suits your case), there's nothing more to say.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto

An edit to a previous comment you might not have read yet.

If the series can be said to be about friendship that seems a very important point and I imagine something a-romantics wouldn't see as a very positive depiction especially if in the end the person who repeatedly stated no romantic interest starts dating the person she insisted was a friend but not a romantic interest.

Then, given that they didn't start dating in the anime, I don't see why this matters. If you want to discuss what happened in the novel, please take it to the novel thread.

Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto

Sure you can. We'd just be in disagreement on the interpretation of certain actions, the relevance of certain details and the themes we see and hear in the series.

Niiyama picking up cues directly within her view or taking the initiative in encouraging Mizore to reach higher could have been done in accordance with her personality.

I think having this conversation is actually quite useful for this very purpose.

It's a minor point I don't find particularly relevant or interesting. Sorry.

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by karice67

Then, given that they didn't start dating in the anime, I don't see why this matters. If you want to discuss what happened in the novel, please take it to the novel thread.
It's a minor point I don't find particularly relevant or interesting. Sorry.

I think it matters as an abstract scenario regarding platonic relationships and the representation of a-romantics in fiction. I found it quite a relief that someone who had been so insistent in her statements that she had no romantic interest in her friend didn't end up dating him for that very reason.

I wrote this somewhere else before but in light of Sallie Krawcheck's essay you linked I wonder if you could evaluate this interpretation as well. Posted because Mamiko has also been proposed as a positively portrayed adult woman, in part because Mamiko is Kumiko's muse.

"Mamiko's father is harsh but he is still seen as sympathetic and Mamiko is seen as spoiled. He offers her higher education. She refuses. Couldn't handle the pressure. Didn't want the university degree to begin with. Beauticians can own their own businesses. Why didn't Mamiko take a business course to earn a degree and then work her way up as a beautician - to do a job she likes but with the ambition to one day open her own shop and truly work for herself? Instead she disappoints her father who thought she could do better. Assumed she could handle the pressure."

[BleedingUranium]

Originally Posted by karice67

The last few pages and days of following this thread have been incredibly painful, so I think I'm going to remove my subscription to this thread and just leave my involvement in the Eupho fandom here.

@Verso Sciolto

I agree with Bleeding Uranium in that you've misread Shu and Kumiko. Admittedly, lots of other viewers have over the course of this series, but I thought we had completely hashed this out as the second season was airing.

And in support of what Archon Wing was saying about gender and what you seem to be saying about it, may I suggest that you read this article? The person who wrote it makes some important points that I think you should consider.

Nooo please don't. I mean, I don't really blame you right now, but still...

Thanks for the article, that's an excellent read. Niiyama was handling the situation as best she can according to her personality, as was Hashimoto. Both succeeded to about the same degree with Mizore (meaning, not really at all).

And more broadly (leaving gender aside), the theme of everyone being at their best when they're allowed to tackle the problems in front of them as themselves is something consistent in the story; there is strength in diversity, and Hibike! certainly has a very diverse cast.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto

I think it matters as an abstract scenario regarding platonic relationships and the representation of a-romantics in fiction. I found it quite a relief that someone who had been so insistent in her statements that she had no romantic interest in her friend didn't end up dating him for that very reason.

I'm not sure you understand the difference between asexual and a-romantic, and it's not a topic I want to hash out here.

Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto

I wrote this somewhere else before but in light of Sallie Krawcheck's essay you linked I wonder if you could evaluate this interpretation as well. Posted because Mamiko has also been proposed as a positively portrayed adult woman, in part because Mamiko is Kumiko's muse.

"Mamiko's father is harsh but he is still seen as sympathetic and Mamiko is seen as spoiled. He offers her higher education. She refuses. Couldn't handle the pressure. Didn't want the university degree to begin with. Beauticians can own their own businesses. Why didn't Mamiko take a business course to earn a degree and then work her way up as a beautician - to do a job she likes but with the ambition to one day open her own shop and truly work for herself? Instead she disappoints her father who thought she could do better. Assumed she could handle the pressure."

You should pay more heed to how Japanese society works first, esp. with regards to what people expect women to end up doing (find a good husband and start a family).

"Expectations" -- that's the one big underlying issue that I feel most viewers missed. But I've tried and largely failed to explain it in the past, so I'm dropping out here. (edit: the most succinct piece I've written about it is here, if anyone's interested.)

[BleedingUranium]

Originally Posted by karice67

You should pay more heed to how Japanese society works first, esp. with regards to what people expect women to end up doing (find a good husband and start a family).

"Expectations" -- that's the one big underlying issue that I feel most viewers missed. But I've tried and largely failed to explain it in the past, so I'm dropping out here.

Thank you; it was especially prominent in the first season. I'll miss all your fantastic contributions, but thanks for sharing what you have. Ja ne.