Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[Enternal]

Originally Posted by bhl88

If no one watched A's... How good would it be?

I think if no one watched A's and have at least watched the 1st season and/or 1st movie, then the movie would be fantastic if it isn't already for those who have watched A's. It's just that those who have watched A's will have quite a few things they're dissatisfied about with the movie like not including certain explanation or scenes. Either way at least to me and quite a bit of people here, it's great.

[bhl88]

Same. While I think the 1st movie can match the 1st season... The second doesn't.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by motaku96

After reading this, I had to see what you guys were talking about on the previous pages.

Why so serious? It's just a reboot movie made for fanservice and selling merchandise. You guys are getting so hot and bothered by screen time and plot development issues. If ya want all that stuff, a novelization would probably be your best bet. Not that I think they'll do one.

*shrug* I just enjoy debating.

Originally Posted by bhl88

If no one watched A's... How good would it be?

They want the two stars appearing it seems... Maybe we should all invite Tsuzuki to California... And mob him.

Better for most, I'd say. Most of the grumbling is about how some of the changed bits don't click as well or people preferring the series.

You can't miss what you've never seen, after all.

[motaku96]

Originally Posted by Keroko

*shrug* I just enjoy debating.

Me too(depending on my mood). Otherwise I wouldn't have posted.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

My thoughts are as follows:
Fate and Arf are on their way to Earth, via a series of teleport jumps.
Lindy, Chrono, and Amy will follow up later on the Arthra, as Lindy plans to get a house on Earth so that Fate would have a home near Nanoha (and to take a break to bond with her new daughter). Amy and Chrono have their modified movie conversation here.
Fate arrives, but senses the barrier up, and her and Arf go charging in.
They double-team Vita (who is draining Nanoha at the moment) and smack her away, binding her in the rubble of a building
They only exchange a few words before Signum and Zafira attack
They fight for a bit, but Shamal shows up and binds Arf, allowing Zafira to knock her out, as per the movie.
Vita gets free, and she teams up with Signum to put Fate down and start to drain her
Arthra shows up, they detect the barrier, and Chrono and Lindy teleport down and get the drop on the pair, knocking them away from Fate (Chrono and Lindy were the only two with power enough to teleport into the barrier; a few Enforcers are working on it from outside). They get a short combat scene, no longer than 30 seconds combined... but also long enough that Lindy recognizes the Wolks. Chrono doesn't really (he was too young then), but does see Shamal fly away with the book.
The Wolks realize they'll soon be outnumbered once the barrier goes down, and retreat
Some short scenes showing Lindy distraught at failing to protect her new daughter, and Fate distraught at failing to protect Nanoha

Interesting ideas.

Personally, I would have played it closer to the A's TV show.

I'm simply have Fate show up completely out of nowhere to stop Vita from draining a near-unconscious Nanoha. And I'd keep the "We're friends" line. That would be Fate's first appearance in the movie - It would certainly make for a grand entrance, imo.

I'd also have a little bit of Fate vs. Vita one-on-one.

The rest I'd probably play like you did.


Just so you know, the World's Finest movie I mentioned isn't an actual real life movie. It was a hypothetical movie I came up with to try to better convey my argument.

Because most of them gave up and left. They realized they were never going to get development of certain aspects... or rather, that the only real development would be between two characters. The Nanoha fandom is actually quite small in the western world. Why?

The first season is quintessential magical girl. It's very cutsey. It's just not the sort of thing that your average 15 to 35 male nerd is into, in the west. K-On! has much the same issue.

To the extent that Madoka Magica gets around this, it's only because its famous for being dark. But even then, its genre limits it somewhat in the west.

Nanoha isn't all smiles and rainbows, but it never gets any darker than a woman harshly abusing her daughter. Almost nobody actually dies in this franchise. About the only characters who do are antagonists and side-characters. As much as I like Vita, I think StrikerS would have been much edgier and had a much more impacting climax if Vita had died at the end of her excellent badass scenes inside Jail's ship.

The perfect magical girl show (for adult males) would be somewhere between Nanoha and Madoka on the light/dark scale. I briefly hoped that VRO might pull this off, but it ultimately ended up even more sugary than Nanoha is.

Answer: Because people get turned off by the pedo things.

This means you can't pitch it to the traditional Sailor Moon market. I remember regretting how a couple short scenes in the original Nanoha anime pretty much doomed it in this regard (otherwise, Nanoha could have easily been pitched to the traditional Sailor Moon market, imo).

Nanoha may well have been better off if its major characters were in their early-to-mid teens, like we see with Madoka Magica and Sailor Moon. Nanoha's maturity level would seem more reasonable then. The pedo aspects would be significantly less pedo, and maybe not even pedo at all.

Yes, normal people do find it creepy. I've tried to show Nanoha to more normal anime watchers(dear god, I can't show Nanoha to non-anime people at all!), and their two main complaints are the pedo transformation scenes, and all the lesbian subtext between two nine year olds.

I understand where you're coming from. I can certainly see where it could be an issue with the first Nanoha movie.

Still, I felt that this movie kept it reasonably ambiguous and child-like. We don't hear Nanoha go on at length about Fate's "pretty eyes" (as she did in the original TV series and Nanoha the 1st movie). I personally didn't get a sexual tension vibe from the Nanoha/Fate scenes in this movie.

On a personal note, I've started to become a bit disgusted with anime fans in particular, over some of their more queer habits and likes, like panty shots. Yes, anime is getting a bit bigger in some respects, but there are very valid reasons why it won't get mainstream approval. And I think many anime fans get so far into their fetish, that they begin to lose sight of what society at large finds okay. And sexual tension between two 9-year-olds is definitely not okay, according to society.

Heh, I was just at Sakura con this weekend, and I reminded myself why I avoided the booths, where they were selling things. Because I walked down and found booths with huge posters and pillow covers with naked anime girls (although with post-it notes hiding important bits). I'm like... seriously, dude? And we want the world to respect us? But I digress, and have wandered off into one of my peeves.

I pretty much agree with your peeve here. It used to bug me a lot too.

But now? Now I've come to terms with the fact that anime will likely never go mainstream in the west. And yes, the predominance of these unusual fetishes are a big part of the reason why.

The anime fandom in general has made its choice here, and there's only so much individual fans like you and I can do about it. C'est la vie.

Long story short (too late, I know): regardless of what you or I think, the western world has already judged certain things to be taboo. And while I'm usually up for taboo-busting, I gotta say, I'm not there yet with regards to 9-year-old girls. If it is your thing, sure, knock yourself out. Just don't try to convince yourself that it is normal or accepted in the world at large.

I don't think it's normal for two 9-year-olds to have sexual desire for each other. However, I do think it's normal for a 9-year-old boy to show a bit of an innocent crush on a 9-year-old girl. I had crushes on certain girls when I was 9 years old. And 9-year-old girls can have innocent crushes on their male peers.

If we truly believe that a homosexual orientation is a matter of birth/genetics, and if we truly believe that a homosexual orientation is as legitimate as a heterosexual one, should two 9 year old girls having innocent crushes on each other be all that problematic?

I don't know. I can't shake the feeling that if Nanoha was a boy, more people would be going "Aaawwww.... isn't it cute how caring and protective he is of this poor, abused girl that he has a crush on? The way he tries to help her is just so adorable!"


I'm probably going to leave it at that. We've probably talked this out as much as we possibly can. Thanks for the interesting discussion, Kaijo.

[Kyral]

Finally watched it (Woah, it's been ages since I posted in the Nanoha section! Oo).

Pretty much like the first movie, I like it a little less than it's series counterpart...

Spoiler for Things I liked::

• Reinforce Zwei from the very begining.
• Battles were epic!
• Unison Devices are mentioned.
• Lindy joining the fray
• Wolkenritter in plate armor.
• Schwalbenflug! Oh... they corrected some German.
• Arisa and Suzuka nearly keept intact.

Spoiler for Things I not liked:

• No Graham, I really liked the guy. It also helped a little explaining how Hayate was able to live alone before. His twin familiars also were the ones introducing Yuuno into the Library.
  But I can see why they cut him out.
• No Yuuno / Vita battle. Come on, you don't need to like Yuuno, but him holding his own without an Device against a Cardridge System powered Vita? This was so Badass! (But to be honest, after the first movie I was not surprised)
• Chrono being just there... doing not much. Me and a friend startet calling him the "quota Chrono".
• Usage of "Snow Rain" was a little weaker then in the series.
• Durandal's voice. It sounded a lot more weak.
• No "Sir, there are non-combatants on the left at three hundred yards."

Well, all in all, it was as I expected. And I enjoyed it.

[Demi.]

>>Alica and Suzuka nearly keept intact.

Arisa? I guess Alisa works too.

At first I was thinking "Alicia", but then I was like, no, that can't be right.

[Kyral]

Originally Posted by Demi.

>>Alica and Suzuka nearly keept intact.

Arisa? I guess Alisa works too.

At first I was thinking "Alicia", but then I was like, no, that can't be right.

Oh... I wrote it with an l? Normaly I write it with an r, so that it's not confused with Alicia.
EDIT: I also wrote it with an c... damn cold... >.<

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by motaku96

Anyway, I'll just address your last question. How much time are you talkin' about? That 10 minutes you mentioned a few pages back? Meh, I probably wouldn't notice if I never saw it.

But having seen it, would you be open to cutting at least some of that 10 minutes worth of mostly NanoFate scenes, in order to give screentime to development Chrono and Lindy?

But I said before that little things like Rein's narration at the beginning and end really helped set the tone, so I would like to keep them in if possible. You also cut out some important parts, like it has to be established that Fate is there to attend school, so yes they have to do the whole school intro thing(beyond that is fair game I guess). And at the end, for future content, they have to make it clear that Nanoha showed Arisa and Suzuka since they weren't 'magically' in the city when Reinforce was attacking. But how could you cut out the transformation sequences!? That's blasphemous!

Why do you need Fate in school at all? Actually, given the short time frame of A's, it might be better to push that school stuff off into the 3rd movie. Some time at the start of the 3rd movie to establish that Fate is now attending Earth school.

As far as NanoFate content specifically, I hope you're not thinking of abolishing it entirely.

I never advocated abolishing it entirely. Merely pruning more unecessary parts. All the things the audience would believe about NanoFate, would still be there. You'd still believe they were close partners. The problem is, when you even suggest cutting one or two scenes, there are people who will throw hissy fits. Even if one has $1 million, one will still complain if someone else advocates that maybe, just maybe they can donate $10 to people who have no money. It's an interesting aspect of human nature.

I was advocating taking some from those that have much (still leaving them with plenty), and giving to those that have none. Admittedly, I do find myself becoming more of a dirty socialist these days, heh.

Originally Posted by bhl88

If no one watched A's... How good would it be?

Plot holes and lack of development would be plot holes and lack of development, regardless. In fact, one of my points was that, if you take any other movie and establish during that movie that two characters lost a loved one to a murderer or something, suggest that one of them has suffered emotional trauma because of it... but then never follow with them dealing with it as they confront the thing/person that killed their loved one, then you have a bad movie, regardless. If this had been any other movie, I have no doubt that everyone here would be in 100% agreement that the movie lacked critically needed development from some of the characters.

Proof? Take the Bay Transformers. How many of the bots were actually developed? 2, maybe 3 autobots, and 2 decepticons. And even that is pushing it. I remember a VGcats comic that one of the bots going, "Wassup! I'm Jazz! I have like 2 lines in my own movie!" How many here think the Transformers movies suffered from lack of character development?

Oh, I'm sure someone will argue: "Hey, but they focused on LaBouf and Megan Fox, the main characters! Everyone else was a minor character!"

@Triple_R: I'll have to get to your post a bit later.

[Triple_R]

Kaijo, I have to ask... Where do you get this frankly bizarre notion that all characters are created equal?

I keep reading your recent posts on this board, and I keep getting these strong impressions from you:

1. The only legitimate approach to character-handling is the ensemble cast. Having relatively few major characters supported by a supporting cast is illegitimate.

2. Having equal screen-time for all characters is the ultimate ideal.


Frankly, I disagree with both of those, simply as a matter of principle.


Kaijo, there are plenty of stories, including recent ones, where the plot revolves around a major character or two or three. And all the other characters are supporting cast. And many of these stories are fantastic. They suffer nothing from using supporting cast characters as just supporting cast characters.

There's nothing inherently wrong with storytelling that prioritizes certain characters over others. In fact, I find your approach to be potentially very limiting, and even downright suffocating for some creative visions. If all characters have to be treated exactly the same, that undermines the ability to have any character truly stand out from the crowd, imo.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kaijo, I have to ask... Where do you get this frankly bizarre notion that all characters are created equal?

If you got this impression, then it would be incorrect. I don't think all characters need to be equal. My impression of you, however, is that two characters deserve all the development, and no one else should get any. Would this be correct? If not, please tell me why.

I merely believe that characters that are connected to the plot, deserve development over those that have less of a connection. As I have said many times, and you are probably sick of hearing: the plot,the narrative, is more important than one character.

I keep reading your recent posts on this board, and I keep getting these strong impressions from you:

1. The only legitimate approach to character-handling is the ensemble cast. Having relatively few major characters supported by a supporting cast is illegitimate.

2. Having equal screen-time for all characters is the ultimate ideal.

Just to remphasize, no. In the context of this movie, I believe Lindy and Chrono deserved more development than the scraps they got. Somehow, that translates into "everyone deserves equal screentime!" which is false. In fact, I believe I downright stated that people like Yuuno didn't have much to do with this plot, and could be downplayed (hence, my removal of one his scenes).

I hope I have sufficiently corrected this inaccurate view.

I DO believe that it is very possible to give sufficient development to more than just two people, however. Plenty of other shows with casts just as large (or larger) demonstrate that it is possible. Thus, the A's movie failing in this regard is quite obvious.

Kaijo, there are plenty of stories, including recent ones, where the plot revolves around a major character or two or three. And all the other characters are supporting cast. And many of these stories are fantastic. They suffer nothing from using supporting cast characters as just supporting cast characters.

There's nothing inherently wrong with storytelling that prioritizes certain characters over others. In fact, I find your approach to be potentially very limiting, and even downright suffocating for some creative visions. If all characters have to be treated exactly the same, that undermines the ability to have any character truly stand out from the crowd, imo.

Oh, I absolutely agree that some focus on a few. But you're trying to draw a false analogy, because in those shows, the supporting cast members have no great connection to the plot, like Chrono and Lindy did to the A's movie. I mean, the death of a loved one that led to emotional trauma. Emotional trauma was apparently important enough to address in the first movie, and AGAIN in the A's movie... for one character only.

That's bad writing, no matter how you try to spin it.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

If you got this impression, then it would be incorrect.

Just to show where I'm getting that impression...

From here: This was probably a long-winded way of saying: you can't be objective, if you heavily favor any particular relationship and character to the degree I've seen from a few. In order to be truly objective, you have to look at each character equally, and determine their proper development in the scope with the movie. (bold emphasis mine)

And here: Ironically, yes, I do realize that Dogs Days has a lot of characters, and manages to share the screen time between all them for some development among all of them. In this respect, I do realize that Dog Days does it better than Nanoha (and above people who want Nanoha to consist of only two characters).

I don't think all characters need to be equal. My impression of you, however, is that two characters deserve all the development, and no one else should get any.

Please show me where you get this impression from my arguments. Because it certainly isn't correct.

At no point have I suggested that Hayate, Reinforce, and the Wolkenritter shouldn't get development in this movie. I've also spoken up for Fate and Nanoha, of course. Right there is no fewer than 8 characters.

How important is your 9th most important character, really? At some point, this heavy focus on supporting cast characters really does come across as a bit much to me...

I merely believe that characters that are connected to the plot, deserve development over those that have less of a connection.

Fate is involved in every scene of conflict in this movie. She was also involved in every scene of conflict in the original TV Series. She's obviously just as connected to the plot of this story as any other character is. She's certainly no less connected then someone who spends most of the time on the sidelines while other people fight...

Emotional trauma was apparently important enough to address in the first movie, and AGAIN in the A's movie... for one character only.

Yes, because the emotional trauma of Hayate, Reinforce, and the Wolkenritter was totally ignored.

Frankly, this movie had enough crying in it as it is. It explored "emotional trauma" very thoroughly.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Personally, I would have played it closer to the A's TV show.

I'm simply have Fate show up completely out of nowhere to stop Vita from draining a near-unconscious Nanoha. And I'd keep the "We're friends" line. That would be Fate's first appearance in the movie - It would certainly make for a grand entrance, imo.

I'd also have a little bit of Fate vs. Vita one-on-one.

The rest I'd probably play like you did.

THe problem is, Yuuno held off Vita in the series. You don't have that here. You have to take Vita out of the picture somehow for Fate to fight Signum alone, hence my double-team and bind (and she can probably use the "we're friends" line while glaring down at Vita. Considerably more epic in my opinion.

The first season is quintessential magical girl. It's very cutsey. It's just not the sort of thing that your average 15 to 35 male nerd is into, in the west. K-On! has much the same issue.

Heh, bad example to use. K-On! emphasizes the catnip that is "moe" to fanboys. Actually, better to call it just crack. K-On! consists of cute moe girls, doing cute moe things, with barely any plot. Hell, they rarely actually play their instruments. The women's anime group that I am a part of, all hate that show, and others like it. It is for guys only.

MG shows are were generally for young girls, 10 and under... until they noticed that guys ages 20-40 were watching them, too. Hence, Nanoha.

This means you can't pitch it to the traditional Sailor Moon market. I remember regretting how a couple short scenes in the original Nanoha anime pretty much doomed it in this regard (otherwise, Nanoha could have easily been pitched to the traditional Sailor Moon market, imo).

Nanoha may well have been better off if its major characters were in their early-to-mid teens, like we see with Madoka Magica and Sailor Moon. Nanoha's maturity level would seem more reasonable then. The pedo aspects would be significantly less pedo, and maybe not even pedo at all.

Had it been me, I would have made them at least 13 or 14. Nanoha's maturity level, while an issue at first, gradually made sense to me once I absorbed info from the other materials. It is something I would have more directly addressed in a reboot movie... but Nanoha got screwed out of explanations and development there as well.

I don't think it's normal for two 9-year-olds to have sexual desire for each other. However, I do think it's normal for a 9-year-old boy to show a bit of an innocent crush on a 9-year-old girl. I had crushes on certain girls when I was 9 years old. And 9-year-old girls can have innocent crushes on their male peers.

If we truly believe that a homosexual orientation is a matter of birth/genetics, and if we truly believe that a homosexual orientation is as legitimate as a heterosexual one, should two 9 year old girls having innocent crushes on each other be all that problematic?

I don't know. I can't shake the feeling that if Nanoha was a boy, more people would be going "Aaawwww.... isn't it cute how caring and protective he is of this poor, abused girl that he has a crush on? The way he tries to help her is just so adorable!"

This is probably getting a bit off track for this thread, so I'll just say... it's all in how you handle it. You can't deny that there was some serious subtext to how Nanoha said things, and how they acted. Had it been a boy and a girl, I would have had issues with it as well. In fact, I felt one scene in S1 wasn't needed, where Nanoha smiles at Chrono, which flusters him, and Yuuno turns red and angry and gives Chrono a glare. A boy of Yuuno's age wouldn't really feel that way, either. Chrono, perhaps he'd get a bit flustered, just from Nanoha's innocent openness. But they didn't follow it up with heavy subtext, either.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Just to show where I'm getting that impression...

From here: This was probably a long-winded way of saying: you can't be objective, if you heavily favor any particular relationship and character to the degree I've seen from a few. In order to be truly objective, you have to look at each character equally, and determine their proper development in the scope with the movie. (bold emphasis mine)

And here: Ironically, yes, I do realize that Dogs Days has a lot of characters, and manages to share the screen time between all them for some development among all of them. In this respect, I do realize that Dog Days does it better than Nanoha (and above people who want Nanoha to consist of only two characters).

Ah, I can understand why you might think that way, then. There is a bit of a difference between being able to look at all the characters equally, and giving them equal screen time and development. The former means you have no real favorites, or at least put your bias on the shelf to judge properly who needs what amount of screen time or addressing. You want NanoFate, just because you like NanoFate. It is hard for you to put that bias on the shelf and judge the characters equally, because to you, Nanoha and Fate will always be the most important, the main characters.

I like Nanoha and Yuuno as characters, but I am capable of putting them on the shelf and cut screen time where necessary. And you are probably sick of me saying it, but I'll say it again and again:

For the plot.

Remember those three words, if nothing else.

Please show me where you get this impression from my arguments. Because it certainly isn't correct.

Then I would suggest you not having the impression of me that you do, and looking deeper. But I say this because you don't really want any scenes of your favorite characters cut. I understand why, but you're not being objective. It can be difficult to discuss things if you're not, but here we are. As long as you cling to those as the Most Important Thing, then no compromise can be reached. I can only just point it out. I am willing to put my favorites on the line, but you are not.

At no point have I suggested that Hayate, Reinforce, and the Wolkenritter shouldn't get development in this movie. I've also spoken up for Fate and Nanoha, of course. Right there is no fewer than 8 characters.

How important is your 9th most important character, really? At some point, this heavy focus on supporting cast characters really does come across as a bit much to me...

Hayate and the Wolks really come out as a group, and not too much as individuals, and they were handled fine in the movie. But the mere fact that we *can* address a "9th" person (in your words) easily, means you can't dismiss the argument casually.

Fate is involved in every scene of conflict in this movie. She was also involved in every scene of conflict in the original TV Series. She's obviously just as connected to the plot of this story as any other character is. She's certainly no less connected then someone who spends most of the time on the sidelines while other people fight...

Not as much as Chrono. In fact, you could replace Fate with Chrono in every fight scene, and not much would change. Well, considering Chrono has emotional issues with the book, it would probably be more emotion-intense. Like the way Lindy confronted Signum. There was more history and intensity there, than there ever was with Fate and Signum.

Yes, because the emotional trauma of Hayate, Reinforce, and the Wolkenritter was totally ignored.

Frankly, this movie had enough crying in it as it is. It explored "emotional trauma" very thoroughly.

Then a simple question, answer yes or no: Is it important to resolve, or at least address, emotional trauma in a movie where said emotional trauma is made evident?

[motaku96]

Originally Posted by Kyral

Finally watched it (Woah, it's been ages since I posted in the Nanoha section! Oo).

Pretty much like the first movie, I like it a little less than it's series counterpart...

Spoiler for Things I liked::

• Reinforce Zwei from the very begining.
• Battles were epic!
• Unison Devices are mentioned.
• Lindy joining the fray
• Wolkenritter in plate armor.
• Schwalbenflug! Oh... they corrected some German.
• Arisa and Suzuka nearly keept intact.

Spoiler for Things I not liked:

• No Graham, I really liked the guy. It also helped a little explaining how Hayate was able to live alone before. His twin familiars also were the ones introducing Yuuno into the Library.
  But I can see why they cut him out.
• No Yuuno / Vita battle. Come on, you don't need to like Yuuno, but him holding his own without an Device against a Cardridge System powered Vita? This was so Badass! (But to be honest, after the first movie I was not surprised)
• Chrono being just there... doing not much. Me and a friend startet calling him the "quota Chrono".
• Usage of "Snow Rain" was a little weaker then in the series.
• Durandal's voice. It sounded a lot more weak.
• No "Sir, there are non-combatants on the left at three hundred yards."

Well, all in all, it was as I expected. And I enjoyed it.

Copycat!! Hehe, just kidding~

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But having seen it, would you be open to cutting at least some of that 10 minutes worth of mostly NanoFate scenes, in order to give screentime to development Chrono and Lindy?

Why do you need Fate in school at all? Actually, given the short time frame of A's, it might be better to push that school stuff off into the 3rd movie. Some time at the start of the 3rd movie to establish that Fate is now attending Earth school.

I never advocated abolishing it entirely. Merely pruning more unecessary parts. All the things the audience would believe about NanoFate, would still be there. You'd still believe they were close partners. The problem is, when you even suggest cutting one or two scenes, there are people who will throw hissy fits. Even if one has $1 million, one will still complain if someone else advocates that maybe, just maybe they can donate $10 to people who have no money. It's an interesting aspect of human nature.

I was advocating taking some from those that have much (still leaving them with plenty), and giving to those that have none. Admittedly, I do find myself becoming more of a dirty socialist these days, heh.

The majority of things you were cutting weren't even nanofate scenes, so I'm not sure if you're seeing nanofate where there isn't or you're just more concerned about fluff, and nanofate happens to be an easy way to generalize it.

I'll just give you a straight answer to your question. If they could add a badass Lindy vs Signum fight scene, then hell yeah, I wanna see that. Cut out one of the slower parts of the movie and I'm cool as ice. Do I think that they should do that just to satisfy my wants and needs? Nope. It's fun to theorize, but the movie is done and I don't feel I'm entitled to anything in particular.

The thing is, you keep saying "unnecessary parts" and I think that's pretty subjective. What you consider unnecessary isn't gonna be universally considered unnecessary. Which I think is why you're gettin' in so many arguments and can't see eye to eye with some people. And again with this comparison with the rich vs poor. You sure feel like you're on some moral high ground don't you.

I'm not sure if you're more angry at the producers of the movie for taking it in a particular direction, or if you're more angry at the fanbase for accepting said direction.

Well, guess it comes down to you thinking you can do a better job telling the story, if given the chance. Assuming you can write for the sake of the story, and not to provide service for the fans. I mean, if you wanna write a fanfic about it to have it your way, moar powah to ya.

[Nanya01]

I'm not sure if you're more angry at the producers of the movie for taking it in a particular direction, or if you're more angry at the fanbase for accepting said direction.

How about both?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by motaku96

The majority of things you were cutting weren't even nanofate scenes, so I'm not sure if you're seeing nanofate where there isn't or you're just more concerned about fluff, and nanofate happens to be an easy way to generalize it.

Heh, tell that to some of the people here like Demi. According to them, what I was cutting would suddenly make NanoFate not viable at all, or something.

I'll just give you a straight answer to your question. If they could add a badass Lindy vs Signum fight scene, then hell yeah, I wanna see that. Cut out one of the slower parts of the movie and I'm cool as ice. Do I think that they should do that just to satisfy my wants and needs? Nope. It's fun to theorize, but the movie is done and I don't feel I'm entitled to anything in particular.

I suppose that is one way of putting it. I prefer to have movies properly develop things that they introduce. Honestly speaking, the other way they could have gone with this, is to completely remove the fact that the Book killed Clyde. Remove the link totally, then it would make sense to not have any development for Chrono or Lindy in the A's movie. They can just focus on the DAB support cast. The way some fans feel, I don't suppose we need Chrono or Lindy having any real scenes of merit at all, since they're just unwanted secondary characters and all.

The thing is, you keep saying "unnecessary parts" and I think that's pretty subjective. What you consider unnecessary isn't gonna be universally considered unnecessary. Which I think is why you're gettin' in so many arguments and can't see eye to eye with some people. And again with this comparison with the rich vs poor. You sure feel like you're on some moral high ground don't you.

Close, but there is such a thing as objectivity and legitimate critical review of a piece. The objective I use, is what other reviewers honestly and critically reviewing a series or movie would do. Is the movie internally consistent? Does it address the elements it brings up? In this case, it does not. It brings up emotional trauma suffered by Chrono, and the complex feelings Lindy and Chrono have toward the book (that Chrono would lie to his mom about it). And then... goes nowhere with it. No matter what movie it is, that is dropping the ball, and any critic would deduct points from it on that basis.

Well, guess it comes down to you thinking you can do a better job telling the story, if given the chance. Assuming you can write for the sake of the story, and not to provide service for the fans. I mean, if you wanna write a fanfic about it to have it your way, moar powah to ya.

I can't say better or not, but I have written several fics that people have liked. I even got kudos for getting Yuuno and Arf back in the action. But you can read "Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Crisis" and it's sequels, as well as "Future Tense" and judge for yourself. Or one of my many crack fics. All listed on ff.net under "Kaijo." I can't promise they are the best, but I've gotten many people, including NanoFate people, to say they liked them.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Heh, tell that to some of the people here like Demi. According to them, what I was cutting would suddenly make NanoFate not viable at all, or something.

It would effectively remove it from the movie. I mean, your suggested cuts included the two best NanoFate scenes in the entire movie. Given that even you yourself admitted that NanoFate doesn't get that much focus in the movie (and yes, you did admit this many, many pages ago), your edits would leave them with pretty much nothing worth talking about at all.

I suppose that is one way of putting it. I prefer to have movies properly develop things that they introduce. Honestly speaking, the other way they could have gone with this, is to completely remove the fact that the Book killed Clyde. Remove the link totally, then it would make sense to not have any development for Chrono or Lindy in the A's movie. They can just focus on the DAB support cast. The way some fans feel, I don't suppose we need Chrono or Lindy having any real scenes of merit at all, since they're just unwanted secondary characters and all.

That's a horrible strawman argument on your part, Kaijo. In fact, your arguments are loaded with strawmen.

Close, but there is such a thing as objectivity and legitimate critical review of a piece. The objective I use, is what other reviewers honestly and critically reviewing a series or movie would do. Is the movie internally consistent? Does it address the elements it brings up? In this case, it does not.

Sure it does. The movie is internally consistent. The movie does address the elements it brings up. Just because it doesn't do it quite as much as you might like it to do it, doesn't mean it's not doing it at all.

It brings up emotional trauma suffered by Chrono, and the complex feelings Lindy and Chrono have toward the book (that Chrono would lie to his mom about it). And then... goes nowhere with it.

That's not true. That's simply not true. There are scenes in this movie that "goes somewhere with it". Including even one scene that you suggested cutting!

No matter what movie it is, that is dropping the ball, and any critic would deduct points from it on that basis.

You're massively overstating it. Critics may factor it into their review, but they could reasonably disagree on how important it really is.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It would effectively remove it from the movie. I mean, your suggested cuts included the two best NanoFate scenes in the entire movie. Given that even you yourself admitted that NanoFate doesn't get that much focus in the movie (and yes, you did admit this many, many pages ago), your edits would leave them with pretty much nothing worth talking about at all.

It all depends on what you mean by focus. As I also said, Nanoha and Fate would still have many more scenes together. You'd still get scenes of Fate worrying about Nanoha. In fact, my proposed changes would have brought back more of the A's style of the first encounter, which would have given you a better NanoFate moment.

That's a horrible strawman argument on your part, Kaijo. In fact, your arguments are loaded with strawmen.

Strawmen, how? Demi, and I believe you, are on record as saying that secondary characters don't deserve development. Only the mains do. And you don't see how how relegating them to support and declaring that their development isn't important, isn't essentially saying, "They're just unwanted secondary characters?" True, I might be going a bit overboard, but that is the sentiment that you project.

But read the first sentences there again. We can go two routes with this, to "fix" it with regards to the plot:

#1. Properly develop Lindy and Chrono with regards to the book, resolving their feelings.

#2. Remove the entire subplot.

I'm actually a bit okay with either. The half-ass method they have given us, is the worst option. They hint at things to come, foreshadow... and then go nowhere with it.

Sure it does. The movie is internally consistent. The movie does address the elements it brings up. Just because it doesn't do it quite as much as you might like it to do it, doesn't mean it's not doing it at all.

That's not true. That's simply not true. There are scenes in this movie that "goes somewhere with it". Including even one scene that you suggested cutting!

Point me to where Chrono addressed his emotional trauma. And if you say the grave scene at the end, I'll throttle you. You would never be satisfied if NanoFate got only a very short silent scene in the epilogue.... yet you would expect everyone else to be happy with it.

You're massively overstating it. Critics may factor it into their review, but they could reasonably disagree on how important it really is.

Literature 101. Or, to put it in a context that people here might better understand: Chekov's Gun. Chrono (and pretty much the whole Clyde backstory) is essentially a Chekov's gun that was cocked, and never fired. Quote from the trope page, with emphasis:

"If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there." —Trope Namer Anton Chekhov (From S. Shchukin, Memoirs. 1911.)

Again, emphasis added was mine. This is basic stuff. Well, maybe literature 102 or 201...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Strawmen, how?

Nobody said that Chrono and Lindy were "unwanted". And nobody said they didn't deserve character development at all.

But with a cast this size, sometimes supporting characters aren't always going to get as much focus as you want.

I mean, in most shows that I liked, I can nonetheless think of some supporting cast characters I would have liked to have seen more from. It's a fault, sure, but it's nothing worth days and days and days of debate over. IMO.

Here's the thing - Lindy and Chrono's background nicely dovetails into the Book of Darkness main plot. Yes, I agree. But it's not like the Book of Darkness main plot is depended on developing that connection to its fullest. It would be nice, sure. It's something worth wanting. The lack of it is worth criticizing in a "missed opportunity" way. But it's not like the plot falls apart without it.


Personally, I'd shave off a half a minute here (previous movie flashbacks and Nanoha running), a minute or so there (transformation scenes cut in half), and a bit more here and there, and eventually scrounge up 3 to 4 minutes for your emotional grave site scene. Yes, it would be a good scene.

[Nanya01]

Um... *Ahem* Triple_R... A cast THIS size has trouble giving minor characters development?

um...

Don't watch the Gurren Lagann movies then with a much larger cast of characters.