Madoka Magica - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[Gimpy]

Maybe Kyube can and will grant any wish like a genie. With what he said to Madoka, anything is possible with a wish, so Madoka just needs to wish the system to no longer exist. Maybe she did before but Homura couldn't stand it because she saw it as Madoka sacrificing herself and so she went back in time to stop it. She doesn't care about anyone except Madoka, so she wouldn't care if the system continued as long as Madoka wasn't a magical girl.

[Makender]

Originally Posted by Gimpy

Maybe Kyube can and will grant any wish like a genie. With what he said to Madoka, anything is possible with a wish, so Madoka just needs to wish the system to no longer exist. Maybe she did before but Homura couldn't stand it because she saw it as Madoka sacrificing herself and so she went back in time to stop it. She doesn't care about anyone except Madoka, so she wouldn't care if the system continued as long as Madoka wasn't a magical girl.

Hmm that would give QB the choice of either "have only one of the most powerful magical girls in existence" or grant Homura's wish to redo and maybe grab all the marbles if she can only redo once and can't prevent Madoka from becoming a witch again. I could totally see QB taking that gamble.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Just watched the episode and as expected, people are going to either proclaim just how "right" they were in predicting the outcome, and other people are bitter that the story is going in a "predictable" manner.

I was quite willing to move on from this debate over heavy foreshadowing vs. plot twists, but since other people seem to want to keep it going...

This story is going in a highly predictable manner. No need for quotation marks there at all.

This is what I would call proper storytelling.

So "proper storytelling" is heavily foreshadowing important plot points, and a writer essentially telegraphing his or her every move?

Keep in mind that NGE (a prominent deconstruction-oriented anime that Madoka has been compared to before) didn't do this. NGE had many plot twists, some of them arguably "extreme". NGE introduced very important characters with startling roles late in its TV airing, and killed a couple characters off in dramatic, plot twisty fashion. And the final two episodes of its TV airing also came almost entirely out of left field for a lot of people.

Does that mean that NGE was engaged in "improper storytelling"? Or does it mean that a plot twist approach to storytelling is perfectly legitimate, and arguably preferable to the heavy foreshadowing approach?


For me, the dramatic impact of many of the episodes of the 2nd half of NGE was greatly heightened, and that much more awe-inspiring and rewarding, precisely because they were very surprising, and only lightly foreshadowed (if foreshadowed at all).

It doesn't need to rely on extreme twists and turns, and can fully entertain by simply trying to engage the audience.

You can engage your audience and still have welcomed plot twists or turns.

I find it silly that Madoka is now being accused of being too predictable after people tried to argue for ambiguity.

That's not silly at all. What does ambiguity have to do with predictability? You can have one without the other, or you can have both, or you can have neither. They're two totally unrelated things.

It can't go both ways.

Sure it can. My earlier hope for this anime, if it had been realized, would have made it both unpredictable and ambiguous.


Now, I'll put up my take on the episode itself in awhile, as I just watched it. First, though, I wanted to address Reckoner's post here.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Makender

Madoka doing nothing to save her own skin isn't admirable, but it also isn't blameworthy. Sayaka on the other hand entered into the contract, discovered she's a soul stuck in a stone, copes with it badly like it really makes all that much of difference (I mean really, you knew that you were different and were sentenced to fight witches the rest of your life, what difference does this make), and then slaps Madoka in the face with the guilt trip because she isn't doing anything to "help" when she's right there beside you trying to support you. Show a little understanding and gratitude? Meh, then there wouldn't be a plot driver to send Sayaka over the edge.

I forgot how dangerous this thread is for any stray opinion. I'll elaborate at what I mean before I'm rotten-tomatomized myself.

Before I start is there anyway we can agree that along with Homura, Sayaka probably has been the most interesting character in this show? Madoka's character next to those two is as flat as a doormat that isn't brought in even when it's raining outside. Sayaka's plight to becoming a witch was so nicely laid out. It was a step by step process since her wish was granted. The clause that went with the wish is that she will need to become a Mahou Shoujo. Now the question is what is the general perception of a Mahou Shoujo? Obviously it is seen in positive light by everyone here. A Mahou Shoujo does good things for others. So Sayaka doesn't mind becoming a Mahou Shoujo even though she is familiar with the danger of becoming one thanks to her first hand experience with what happened to Mami. She is also perceiving it as that she has already done something good for that boy by becoming a MS. And then enters Homura. The initial perception of her wasn't a good one for Sayaka. If I remember correctly both Sayaka and Madoka loudly wondered why two MS don't get along. From Sayaka's point of view, it doesn't help that Homura doesn't care to clarify matters. And then enters Kyouko. She pretty much changes the whole perception of a Mahou Shoujo. Kyouko came across as someone who didn't give a damn about anything else other than collecting grief seed. That obviously doesn't bode well with Sayaka. She is still going to persist with her role as Mahou Shoujo just because the boy she helped cure is still around and Madoka is constantly by her side. And then the final nail in the coffin. Kiyubi's revelation of the soul gem. Everything she knows, she believed in, her own ideal and etc. falls around her in pieces. Even if she is still able to be with the boy she likes, she can't let it happen after what she knows, can she? The final conversation for Sayaka with Kiyube pretty much seals the deal. It also explains why MS needs to be so detached, uncaring, and etc. Not many will be able to cope with the burden of MS otherwise.

In comparison, Madoka's ideals are similar to those of Sayaka's. And yet she can't take that step to become a MS either because of her own fear and uncertainty. And yet she doesn't mind accompanying Sayaka even though she very well knows there is absolutely nothing she can do. She is heartfelt for Sayaka, she is trying to empathize, she wants to help even though it is so very clear for all of us she can't help Sayaka in any shape or fashion. It's like someone in the hospital who is trying to soothe a terminal patient. I know my example is crude but that's exactly what has been Madoka's role thus far.

I was genuinely wondering when will Sayaka tell Madoka off. Just go away. shoo shoo... She was not going through what Sayaka was, so how can she even begin to fathom Sayaka's agony.

Hence, my conclusion why I have found Madoka to be annoying. The only role she has successfully upheld in this series is how terribly hapless and fragile she is. Sayaka in comparison had a strong sense of do-good and went with it till her mind broke. I agree that Sayaka is pitiful, but I didn't find her annoying. Madoka, on the other hand,....... of lord she is so very annoying! So when in the end of this episode Kyubi redefines Mahou Shoujo, it becomes so very clear why Madoka holds the greatest potential to be a MS aka a witch.

Don't hurt me people, especially if you are a Madoka fan.

Btw, subs are out!

[yakuri-moe]

I hope these show gets F*CKED UP until the very end, bittersweet ending being more bitter than sweet.

Wouldn't it be ironic that, if Homura's wish was to stop Madoka from being a magical girl she turned out to be responsible for it this time? It'd fall beautifully in the fact that the magical girl's wish itself will never go as they hope for and/or lead to a horrible conclusion

Originally Posted by monir

of lord she is so very annoying! So when in the end of this episode Kyubi redefines Mahou Shoujo, it becomes so very clear why Madoka holds the greatest potential to be a MS aka a witch.

Don't hurt me people, especially if you are a Madoka fan.

Don't worry, you're not the only one. She's a moron (it's an opinion, guys).

Personally I hate Madoka and I hated her more after this episode. It's so obvious that QB has his own corrupt agenda (especially obvious on episode 6 when he was so nonchalant about the truth of the SG, and she was freaking there) yet she still listens to what he says as if he was a trusted counselor, while dismissing anything Homura says even though she's been warning her since the first episode. It's not her choice to not become a magical girl what annoys me, but her constant wavering towards it even though there are many hints pointing the seediness of such a contract. There's only so much naivety I can take.

I think she's a perfect example of the kind of main character magical girl shows usually have: naive, innocent and pure, always wanting to make friends out of everyone (Nanoha, Usagi, most Precures..., you name them). While such character works fine for the usual MG formula, in a more harsh, "realistic" world they wouldn't be as lovable, effectively grating on your nerves for their naivety. It does work well to make a contrast between Madoka, an stereotypical magical girl series protagonist, with this kind of gritty world.

[Decagon]

I don't know about Sayaka being the witch from ep 1. A bunch of the art in Homura's room during the meeting has what seem to be notes on that... thing.

[Estavali]

I'm surprised nobody has made any remarks on Homura's house. Doesn't it look VERY familiar, like a certain shop in a previous work that also had Shinbo and Kajiura involved?

After watching this episode, I have this growing suspicion that Homerun-chan is actually a post-Walpurgisnacht Sayaka.

Spoiler for Hurried thought:

She's too concerned about protecting Madoka, to the point that she is actually willing to kill Sayaka to spare Madoka the anguish of seeing one of her best friends transformed into a Witch. This is something that Madoka would never do, considering how much she value her friendship with Sayaka, and would be very OOC of what we have seen of her so far, if she would go to such lengths just to protect herself (we are looking at a girl who is willing to accompany a friend on her Witch-hunts despite the dangers which she is all too aware of).

Also, this theory may also answer Homerun-chan's actions throughout the series so far, like how she seemed hurt when Madoka called her Akemi-san in episode 1, and why she knows that Charlotte is not something Mami could handle (and how she herself was able to take down the same witch without too much a hassle. Because she herself had witnessed the Witch's ability previously). It also explains her driving obsession to prevent Madoka from becoming a MG; simply because Madoka paid a price too high to turn her back from a Witch! To Sayaka, this would be unacceptable, especially after her harsh words to Madoka this episode, she would be heartbroken if her best friend was still willing to sacrifice herself just for her sake. Just because she, Madoka, was a person too kind, a friend too good to be true.

Even if Kyubey is lying about Madoka being able to save Sayaka after she becomes a MG, it may be still possible for him to reverse the Witch-MG transformation if Madoka wishes it so. In other words, the foundation of Homerun-chan=Sayaka theory lies in the event that Madoka wishes Sayaka out of her Witch state and succeeds in doing so (regardless his intentions and plans, Kyubey apparently honors his part of granting the wish of the potential MG).

I'm afraid my post may not be as well laid-out as I wish it so (since I'm running late for work and has little time to organise my thoughts. Alas for the parts which I have no time now to write out! ). So I apologise if what is written now seems full of holes (if the theory itself is not so in the first place . And yes, I do recognise that a very big hole here is why Homerun-chan didn't stop Madoka from throwing Sayaka from the bridge in the first place )

[Deconstructor]

That is a large wall of text.

In the Kyubey wars, I have always used Puella Magi instead of mahou shoujo/magical girl. Part of it is to remain original to the title, but I felt there was a significant enough difference, even if I didn't know what that difference was. This episode shows what happens when Puella Magi (magical girls) evolve into Puella Maga (witches).

The emotional conflict I have with this episode is between Sayaka and Madoka. Madoka is too scared to become a Puella Magi, that's understandable. But Sayaka, brave enough to make a stand against witches, is turned into one herself. That just seems unfair.

EDIT: To be fair to Madoka, she has come very close twice. If it were not for Homura, Madoka would be a Puella Magi now.

[Makender]

Originally Posted by monir

Before I start is there anyway we can agree that along with Homura, Sayaka probably has been the next interesting character in this show? Madoka's character next to those two is as flat as a doormat that isn't brought in even when it's raining outside. Sayaka's plight to becoming a witch was so nicely laid out. It was a step by step process since her wish was granted. The clause that went with the wish is that she will need to become a Mahou Shoujo. Now the question is what is the general perception of a Mahou Shoujo? Obviously it is seen in positive light by everyone here. A Mahou Shoujo does good things for others. So Sayaka doesn't mind becoming a Mahou Shoujo even though she is familiar with the danger of becoming one thanks to her first hand experience with what happened to Mami. She is also perceiving it as that she has already done something good for that boy by becoming a MS. And then enters Homura. The initial perception of her wasn't a good one for Sayaka. If I remember correctly both Sayaka and Madoka loudly wondered why two MS don't get along. From Sayaka's point of view, it doesn't help that Homura doesn't care to clarify matters. And then enters Kyouko. She pretty much changes the whole perception of a Mahou Shoujo. Kyouko came across as someone who didn't give a damn about anything else other than collecting grief seed. That obviously doesn't bode well with Sayaka. She is still going to persist with her role as Mahou Shoujo just because the boy she helped cure is still around and Madoka is constantly by her side. And then the final nail in the coffin. Kiyubi's revelation of the soul gem. Everything she knows, she believed in, her own ideal and etc. falls around her in pieces. The final conversation for Sayaka with Kiyube pretty much seals the deal. It also explains why MS needs to be so detached, uncaring, and etc. Not many will be able to cope with the burden of MS otherwise.

Oh Sayaka is certainly one of the more dynamic characters of the show. Coupled with that I'm no Madoka fan. Its just her completely adamant attitude toward "justice" and unwillingness to budge from that point of view to the point that she views everyone in a negative light is a dislikeable trait in her. I just dislike her as a character and her over-the-top, emotional response to her situation. Maybe I'm developing a kind of Suzaku-style hate for her.

In comparison, Madoka's ideals are similar to those of Sayaka's. And yet she can't take that step to become a MS either because of her own fear and uncertainty. And yet she doesn't mind accompanying Sayaka even though she very well knows there is absolutely nothing she can do. She is heartfelt for Sayaka, she is trying to empathize, she wants to help even though it is so very clear for all of us she can't help Sayaka in any shape or fashion. It's like someone in the hospital who is trying to soothe a terminal patient. I know my example is crude but that's exactly what has been Madoka's role thus far.

It's actually quite a good analogy as Madoka can only be there for Sayaka to help "soothe" her suffering much like a visitor for a terminally ill patient. I just can't respect Sayaka for even thinking that Madoka should join her in her illness however. If she just said "Please leave me alone. It's too painful for you to be around" then she saves herself from being a selfish jerk. But she didn't.

[herbert]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

But Sayaka, brave enough to make a stand against witches, is turned into one herself. That just seems unfair.

I don't call it "brave," because it's actually coward. Something else is much scarier than witches so she turns to witches and becomes one of them.

It's understandable, by the way.

[Triple_R]

Now, putting aside my defense of the plot twist approach to storytelling, I thought that Episode 8 was pretty good.

One area where I think Episode 8 actually hasn't received enough credit is in its overall artistic and animation direction. SHAFT clearly pulled out all the stops for this episode.

Lots of great, dramatic, panning shots of characters during intense confrontational moments. Atmospheric imagery (such as the handling of rain and backgrounds) was simply sensational. Lots of great philosophical musings in this episode, and there was a superb psychological thriller aspect to Sayaka in this episode.

I think that the "blame game" (some people finding fault with Madoka, some finding fault with Sayaka, some with Homura) may be misplaced here.

This show has a strong element of Greek tragedy to it, and I'm starting to think that the point is not to judge the characters for their personal failings, but rather to try to interpret what each of these characters may be saying at a thematic level, or perhaps even as a commentary on the human condition.

Sayaka's encounter with an obviously misogynstic man helped set her off even further than she already was, and made her question if this world is even worth defending or not. It's a very dark observation that Sayaka is making, but truthfully, I've always wanted to read a wesern comic book like that; where a noble heroic character runs into a lot of darkness inherent in the people that he or she is protecting, and starts to wonder if what they're doing is really worth it or not.

Sayaka also became irate with Madoka because she misinterpreted Madoka's cries of concern for her friend as Madoka judging her harshly. From Sayaka's perspective, Madoka has no right to judge her, because Sayaka is the one out there, putting her life on the line.

Madoka is the good-natured pacifistic soul that simply wants peace and trainquility and for the happy, peaceful life she and her friends had back at the start of Episode 1 to return. With that in mind, it's not hard to see why Homura is going to such lengths to try to help out Madoka, and get through to her.

I think that Homura is deeply impressed by Madoka's character, by her sweetness, and by her idealistic caring, and hence loves Madoka. She doesn't want to see Madoka sacrifice herself for others because Madoka herself is such a wonderful person with a wonderful life, in Homura's eyes.

I have some deeper speculations here, pertaining to a possible biblical analogy, but I'm going to keep that private for now until I see more leading to that.


All in all, I'm actually going to give this a 10/10. As Kanon wrote, the execution here was superb. And while some of the overarching plot events have been more predictable than I would have liked, the intricate details of how those plot events have been implented into the anime itself, has been somewhat surprising. Sayaka's meeting with that misogynstic man on the bus was truly a startling scene, that I never would have foreseen, for example. And yet, it was a very effective one, imo.

So, again, 10/10. I'm very much looking forward to more.

[yakuri-moe]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Sayaka's encounter with an obviously misogynstic man helped set her off even further than se already was, and made her question if this world is even worth defending or not.

It doesn't help that Kamijou (whatever his name was) didn't tell her anything about going getting released from the hospital even though they're childhood friends and she visited him practically every day. A dickish move if you ask me.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

All in all, I'm actually going to give this a 10/10. As Kanon wrote, the execution here was superb. And while some of the overarching plot events have been more predictable that I would have liked, the intricate details of how those plot events have been implented into the anime itself, has been somewhat surprising.

Yes, execution disarmed my worst fears nicely. Overall plot still feels a bit childish but we have another 4 episodes to bring in a plot complexity and probably it doesn't matter anyway - devil is in the details

What really bother me is

why Homura just didn't tell everyone the truth early on?

For now it feels really stretched, but I am more than willing to wait and see.

[ahelo]

My Madoka won't be a Mahou Shoujo theory might actually come true.

My new theory now is...

MADOKA = GOD

Based from what Homura said "Everything revolves around Madoka"

[serenade_beta]

Aryah... Blue finally died... Well, go figures on that... Wasn't as much of a shock or sad to me as I expected it would be.

Anyways... Q-beh... Damn...
I thought he was doing his usual Super Sellsman Talk with Madoka on the contract, but then he gets shot to pieces......... But of course, he is still alive.
But, hmm... I see. So the world setting is using time travel, huh? I guess that is what the beginning of the series was?

By the way, by Q-beh's logic at the end, wouldn't it be better to use "Majokko" instead? That ways, you use the two kanji for "shoujo" and the "ma" of "majo" without adding "hou", which isn't in either?
Q-beh --> QB, so Incubater --> IQBT?

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I was quite willing to move on from this debate over heavy foreshadowing vs. plot twists, but since other people seem to want to keep it going...

This story is going in a highly predictable manner. No need for quotation marks there at all.

Highly predictable? That's going a little far. Highly predictable is like that crap Infinite Stratos.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So "proper storytelling" is heavily foreshadowing important plot points, and a writer essentially telegraphing his or her every move?

Keep in mind that NGE (a prominent deconstruction-oriented anime that Madoka has been compared to before) didn't do this. NGE had many plot twists, some of them arguably "extreme". NGE introduced very important characters with startling roles late in its TV airing, and killed a couple characters off in dramatic, plot twisty fashion. And the final two episodes of its TV airing also came almost entirely out of left field for a lot of people.

Does that mean that NGE was engaged in "improper storytelling"? Or does it mean that a plot twist approach to storytelling is perfectly legitimate, and arguably preferable to the heavy foreshadowing approach?

Proper storytelling is simply the ability to tell a story and engage the audience without having to rely on gimmicks. This is why I felt Code Geass R2 fell apart compared to season 1, since instead of trying to focus on and tell a good story, they started relying too much on gimmicks that made season 1 successful.

Yes, NGE had a few twists and turns, but ultimately that's not what made the show so interesting for most viewers. Twists and turns can add excitement, but if the story itself was not very exciting/interesting in the first place, then the effect is pretty weak. However, not every series needs dramatic twists and turns, and some would do better without it.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

For me, the dramatic impact of many of the episodes of the 2nd half of NGE was greatly heightened, and that much more awe-inspiring and rewarding, precisely because they were very surprising, and only lightly foreshadowed (if foreshadowed at all).

You can engage your audience and still have welcomed plot twists or turns.

Which I never said anything against. All I am trying to say is that Madoka as a show exemplifies what I call great storytelling, because it is able to engage without these tactics or gimmicks.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's not silly at all. What does ambiguity have to do with predictability? You can have one without the other, or you can have both, or you can have neither. They're two totally unrelated things.

Because when one argues that for example, kyube's morality is an ambiguous issue, then the plot becomes unpredictable under such an approach, which is just what you wanted. Otherwise the people who were fairly certain that Kyube was evil are the only ones who can claim predictability.

Originally Posted by Dharma

Yes, execution disarmed my worst fears nicely. Overall plot still feels a bit childish but we have another 4 episodes to bring in a plot complexity and probably it doesn't matter anyway - devil is in the details

What really bother me is

For now it feels really stretched, but I am more than willing to wait and see.

Fairly certain Homura said something along the lines of people not believing her before.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by ahelo

My Madoka won't be a Mahou Shoujo theory might actually come true.

My new theory now is...

MADOKA = GOD

Based from what Homura said "Everything revolves around Madoka"

In complete seriousness, I think that Madoka is being setup as a very Christ-like figure. So, you're not far off in your theory, imo.


Edit: Reckoner, that's mostly fine. I just think that the plot twist approach to storytelling isn't necessarily a bad one (i.e. "improper"), and hence I wanted to defend it. Also, I wouldn't be so sure, if I were you, over what "most people" found interesting when it comes to NGE. Most NGE fans I've talked with where truly blown away by the plot twists, and would not have found the anime as interesing without them. At the very least, Reckoner, I'd like it if you could admit that plot twists and turns can make at least some shows better.


This anime of Madoka Magica, I admit, is working fine without it though, mostly due to extremely exquisite execution. Also, while some speculations of mine have now died, I have found new exciting ones to take their place. Very, very compelling and intriguing anime.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

By the way, by Q-beh's logic at the end, wouldn't it be better to use "Majokko" instead? That ways, you use the two kanji for "shoujo" and the "ma" of "majo" without adding "hou", which isn't in either?

It needs to be "mahou shojo" to nail the fans that they're tearing apart the MG genre.
Recall that Kaijo once put up Mai HiME as a better deconstruction of the MG genre? Part of the reason it isn't recognised as such is because it never sold itself as an MG show in the first place. In contrast, Madoka's been rubbing it in that this is an MG show.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by ahelo

My new theory now is...

MADOKA = GOD

Based from what Homura said "Everything revolves around Madoka"

That... may be stretching it too far. I do not think he meant that in a literal sense. If that were so, Madoka is the Sun and everyone else are planets.

Originally Posted by herbert

I don't call it "brave," because it's actually coward. Something else is much scarier than witches so she turns to witches and becomes one of them.

So if Sayaka is a coward, what does that make Madoka?

Sayaka was aware of the consequences, yet she blindly charged forth into battle without regard for her own survival. Sayaka did everything she could to kill witches, believing that she would save people from harm. In the end, she gave up her soul and her sanity, paying the ultimate price. That is something I must respect.

Bad things happen to good people.
Terrible things happened to Sayaka. But she had a heart of justice... no matter who condemns Sayaka, she left me utterly compelled.

[serenade_beta]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

It needs to be "mahou shojo" to nail the fans that they're tearing apart the MG genre.
Recall that Kaijo once put up Mai HiME as a better deconstruction of the MG genre? Part of the reason it isn't recognised as such is because it never sold itself as an MG show in the first place. In contrast, Madoka's been rubbing it in that this is an MG show.

I know. Only half-joking. Mainly talking to Q-beh, not the staff that came up with the name.