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Old 2014-12-12, 18:48   Link #341
Kenju of the Right
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nah Id say hes mostly creative with his characters

tthough I do admit, I wish he'd give Kanzaki, Stiyl and Index(love all three of them) the same focus he gives Mikoto, Accel and Touma

he obviously has the skills to do great things with them. Though, the relationship with Touma & Stiyl happens to be my favorite in the series.
Their bond isn't in your face, but more underlying.
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Last edited by Kenju of the Right; 2014-12-12 at 19:05.
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Old 2014-12-13, 11:30   Link #342
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Fizix View Post
I think he is uncreative with the characters generally, well there are some exceptions.

He just doesn't develop the core cast evenly. There are far too many characters; as levelseven said, new chapter, new opponent, new cast surrounding touma. If you do that then you'll never develop character relationships properly and you'll never utilise characters to their potential.

I wish there was a much smaller cast that was properly utilised and developed. The "main cast" (or show figureheads) are all interesting characters that have loads of potential.

Its pretty bad when you can't use the term "main cast" confidently ��
Kawakami(Horizon) has a large cast yet he can pull it off without leaving his characters in the dark.
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Old 2014-12-13, 13:42   Link #343
Fizix
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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
Kawakami(Horizon) has a large cast yet he can pull it off without leaving his characters in the dark.
I've not read/watched that, is it as descriptive in its narrative? I think that's an important point with this series, its very heavy in its descriptive narrative; to the extent that it can go on a bit at times. As the anime is built off of the novels everything will follow in the same way.
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Old 2014-12-13, 13:49   Link #344
Fizix
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Originally Posted by Kenju of the Right View Post
nah Id say hes mostly creative with his characters

tthough I do admit, I wish he'd give Kanzaki, Stiyl and Index(love all three of them) the same focus he gives Mikoto, Accel and Touma

he obviously has the skills to do great things with them. Though, the relationship with Touma & Stiyl happens to be my favorite in the series.
Their bond isn't in your face, but more underlying.
Hmm... While I partly agree, I don't think he gives many of them the focus they deserve. It doesn't really show the relationships between touma and the others, sometimes I wonder whether Touma actually likes half of the characters or whether they are just there... Whether they are more an annoyance to him than friends. But they are treat as such so I assume they should be.

And likewise if the other characters care about him, or why they care about him. Index is a prime example of this. So are others like Mikoto, who I sometimes question whether he even likes.

Other cases such as Accelerator, Shiage and Mikoto (with her friends), you can sense the connection and relationships they have with those around them, they have depth. It makes the events they are involved in have more meaning. You know why they act in certain ways or why they are fighting.

Touma doesn't, likely because he is spread out across so many people. This can lead to Touma sometimes feeling like a wheel out, plastic hero with shallow reasons for fighting.

Maybe that's going a bit too far, but hopefully you understand what I'm getting at.

Last edited by Fizix; 2014-12-13 at 13:55. Reason: Trying to clarify
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Old 2014-12-13, 13:54   Link #345
Chaos2Frozen
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Horizon is ridiculously heavy on text, each of the books are 2-3 times the thickness of a regular LN.

The first two season only manages to cover the first 2 books (4 parts altogether).


[delete off-topic]

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Fizix View Post
Touma doesn't, likely because he is spread out across so many people. This can lead to Touma sometimes feeling like a wheel out, plastic hero with shallow reasons for fighting.

Maybe that's going a bit too far, but hopefully you understand what I'm getting at.
But that is the point- why do you need some arbitrary reason to save someone? Are they not worth saving if you don't know them? Are they not worth saving because there isn't a reward? Do you not save people because they were deemed 'evil' ?
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Old 2014-12-13, 14:08   Link #346
Fizix
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Horizon is ridiculously heavy on text, each of the books are 2-3 times the thickness of a regular LN.

The first two season only manages to cover the first 2 books (4 parts altogether).



Read his match with another school in the dihaisensai.

Then the Amakusa's interaction when they see him in the hospital.

The one thing this series isn't short of is people's impression of Kamijou, Kamijou's impression of people, and Kamijou's impression of Kamijou.

People just tend to overlook those for the more impressive fight scenes.

EDIT:



But that is the point- why do you need some arbitrary reason to save someone? Are they not worth saving if you don't know them? Are they not worth saving because there isn't a reward? Do you not save people because they were deemed 'evil' ?
I might check Horizon out when I have time. I haven't read much of the OT novels prior to where the anime cuts off so maybe it gives more focus. But I feel his relationships between the main characters isn't particularly explored. Like index is just a stream of biting gags and him placating her and Mokoto a stream of zapping gags with him unintentionally annoying her. I expect more substance there.


In regards to whether people are worth saving, I think my post is put across badly, I was referring mainly to those who appear to be his friends or people he supposedly cares about. That's different to whether he should fight for someone. When he fights with or for those who he supposedly cares about then that should be palpable, it changes the context of the situation and adds something to it I think.
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Old 2014-12-13, 14:20   Link #347
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Fizix View Post
I might check Horizon out when I have time. I haven't read much of the OT novels prior to where the anime cuts off so maybe it gives more focus. But I feel his relationships between the main characters isn't particularly explored. Like index is just a stream of biting gags and him placating her and Mokoto a stream of zapping gags with him unintentionally annoying her. I expect more substance there.
It's definitely there, but in small, not so obvious amounts.

If I were to give a description to their relationships, Index-Touma-Mikoto, everything can be base around "Trust".

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Old 2014-12-13, 14:31   Link #348
Fizix
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
It's definitely there, but in small, not so obvious amounts.

If I were to give a description to their relationships, Index-Touma-Mikoto, everything can be base around "Trust".



But we do know, if not from his words at least from his actions, there are people he trust to watch his back, there are people he wants to keep out of danger, there are simple classmates he mess around with, girls that he don't understand, girls that he do understand etc.

It might have been better spelled out clearly (which I think is what's happening in NT) but for the most part we do know.
I haven't really picked up on that, I feel he is spread too thinly. Maybe I need to pay more attention, I get the impression he is surrounded by people who annoy him but won't leave him alone at times.

I think its clearer with characters like Accelerator and Shiage as their respective casts are smaller, more time is given to each and therefore you get a better feel for them, their relationships and their place in the world. The characters feel more fleshed out and real for it.


Spoiler for NT5? Not in the slightest bit serious, about character development:


I'm going off topic now, so I'll stop.
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Old 2014-12-13, 14:42   Link #349
Chaos2Frozen
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I haven't really picked up on that, I feel he is spread too thinly. Maybe I need to pay more attention, I get the impression he is surrounded by people who annoy him but won't leave him alone at times.
When he's in trouble, who does he call for help? Occasionally Index (vol 5), sometimes Mikoto (vol 18).

Despite his antagonism with Style, he trust him to watch after Index (vol 18), he shares his troubles with Tsuchimikado (SS1).

Eh, honestly there's too much examples, but like I've said it's all the little gestures, I'll agree if you're saying there's little to no big emotional scenes between him and the recurring cast Like Index outside of their story arc, but I disagree that we know nothing about what he thinks.
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Old 2014-12-13, 14:47   Link #350
Fizix
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
When he's in trouble, who does he call for help? Occasionally Index (vol 5), sometimes Mikoto (vol 18).

Despite his antagonism with Style, he trust him to watch after Index (vol 18), he shares his troubles with Tsuchimikado (SS1).

Eh, honestly there's too much examples, but like I've said it's all the little gestures, I'll agree if you're saying there's little to no big emotional scenes between him and the recurring cast outside of their story arc, but I disagree that we know nothing about what he thinks.
OK I understand and appreciate that. His actions do show his relationships to these characters; and thats kind of my point, that's how we know there is something more there, but we never really get to see it. Why does he trust index, Mikoto and Styil? (Styil is actually a really good example of what I'm getting at).

I think its literally down to the spread out cast not giving Touma consistent time with the characters, (which as a byproduct leaves certain good characters underdeveloped). I don't feel the relationships between the characters like I can with Accel and Shiage.
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Old 2014-12-13, 14:52   Link #351
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Back on topic to index specifically, wouldn't life be so much easier if Touma started making use of online shopping? Surely the supermarkets in Academy City have home delivery?
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Old 2014-12-13, 15:38   Link #352
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You're assuming that Imagine Breaker will let him keep a working computer. Half the time it won't let him keep a working phone.
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Old 2014-12-13, 15:58   Link #353
Fizix
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You're assuming that Imagine Breaker will let him keep a working computer. Half the time it won't let him keep a working phone.
I guess this is true, but he always manages to have a new one almost immediately after so I doubt it would be too much of an issue.
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Old 2014-12-13, 16:30   Link #354
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I do not think a person need a reason to help someone, yesterday I helped an old lady across the street and paid the passage of buses for an unknown, but what makes kamijou is totally different, he is willing to risk / throw away the own life to protect the smile of a stranger (especially if you're a girl with tears), how can you take seriously a character with a good life, and are willing to lose everything for others?
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Old 2014-12-13, 16:39   Link #355
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I do not think a person need a reason to help someone, yesterday I helped an old lady across the street and paid the passage of buses for an unknown, but what makes kamijou is totally different, he is willing to risk / throw away the own life to protect the smile of a stranger (especially if you're a girl with tears), how can you take seriously a character with a good life, and are willing to lose everything for others?
This is the difference I can't follow when I read vol 11. I'm familiar with the old testament Touma that hesitates to follow index when he said "will you follow me to hell?" he doesn't do so and go to school. Why? because its dangerous but even so he still helps in the end when it came barging in front of his door or his guilty consciousness says so. But the difference in initial Touma and the current written Touma is different for me. And maybe it because the goal change as it goes. Originally it's a one shot novel that turn into serialization but in sense. Kamijou pre-serialization and pre memory lost is a bit different from the Kamijou after serialization and after memory lost.
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Old 2014-12-13, 16:53   Link #356
LG-MAX 2.o
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What the hell do you think fire-fighters are doing? Are they not risking their lives for complete strangers as well? You could say it's their job but it doesn't change the fact that they chose that life.

This isn't some mind blowing concept.

And Mira wonders why I'm grumpy...
they gain money with this profession, and with that money feed their families, entire month firefighters receive the salary and if do not receive go into shutdown, they are not playing at being the hero.

Furthermore, they are trained to do what they do, it gives security, study and try to improve themselves, that training Touma do? when he at some point thought "I need to be stronger / improve my skills / to become smarter so I can help others"?

Kamijou runs blindly, without purpose, preparation, or reason, and yet in the end manages to save the day and the girl with 100% accuracy, well, there was the case of OT vol 2, but that loss never affected him, as if it never happened, with the way Kamachi treats this volume, look it never existed, the most important thing that happened in it (dragon) was passed to Railgun.

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Old 2014-12-13, 17:25   Link #357
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Somehow I knew you would miss the point.

Do you know how much civil servants get paid? Fire fighters, police officers... They don't get paid a lot that's for sure. If it's about money there are far easier jobs with less risk to their lives.

NOBODY joins those organizations for the money, there might be a few rotten eggs, but on the whole the good guys there truly believe in helping people and sign up for it.
I did not say they do it just for money, but they earn something to do and are also trained to do what they do, so do not risk their lives blindly. what kamijou wins? friends? then he does it all in hopes of increasing the number of contacts on facebook? and what kind of preparation he does?

police, teachers, firefighters, lifeguards, military, etc. There are many professions where someone skittish a life and those professions do not make the rich person, but they do not do something like this without preparation / blindly or without receiving anything in return. (money, benefits, promotions, personal satisfaction, willingness to grow in life and gives a better life for their family, some trauma that someone has suffered in the past and do not want others to suffer, adrenaline, etc.

where Kamijou falls?
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Old 2014-12-13, 17:56   Link #358
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100% accuracy? Hardly. He gets beat up and thrown all over, that's hardly a perfect score. When you're in a test, you don't get the full marks just for the right answer without getting the right method.
OK, now you do not get the point, Kamijou does not fail to save someone before his eyes (from the OT vol 2 at least if you want to argue), even the air microbes are saved.

for the rest, it is difficult to have a discussion when there is nothing in your argument that denies my point of view. I'm just saying that it is difficult to take seriously a character who risks something as important as life itself by unknown without a real reason besides protecting smiles (preferably women, I wonder if one day some villain will realize that all they need is to ask help for Touma with tears in eyes, even if Touma does not help, this should cause a short circuit in his brain.), but well, that's something to ordinary people, we are now talking about Kamijou Touman, "one who is protected by the gods", then, I think he can do what he wants, if he fails the gods will arrange everything so that he has not "unnecessary changes."

ps: talking about the beatings, after which Acqua and Silvia did to him, and he still walks normally and has no sequels to disrupt daily life, etc, so I do not care much, since he can still save people even after that.
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Old 2014-12-13, 18:46   Link #359
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really its hard to take a character seriously just because they like to protect others? =_=

even in real life people like that exist. i'm just saying. you either have a bleak view in reality or blind to reality.

they might be hard to take seriously at first but they exist and when you see it in action. you will know.
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Old 2014-12-13, 19:31   Link #360
LG-MAX 2.o
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really its hard to take a character seriously just because they like to protect others? =_=
people who are important to you, such as your family and dear friends = OK.

Someone you met a few minutes and has no obligation = this story needs to be better developed.
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