Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Colossa]

It is quite unbelievable that, at the end of season one, someone actually believes "Celestial Being is protected by the powers of plot".

So. Celestial Being is 'wrong'. The Gundams are nearly destroyed at the conclusion, with loss in arms and in life. Is the director not showing how 'Celestial Being's way will not work'? Can the audience deny that the producers' thoughts may reflect this? How then, pray tell, is Celestial Being "protected by the powers of plot"?

Already from the first episode, Graham calls the 'eradication of war by force' a hypocrisy. Not matter what Celestial Being does—saving lives from Earth's acceleration, shouldering the responsibility of eradicating the terrorists they brought out of the woodwork, the resolution of Azadistan's civil war by peaceful means—the world does not accept them, and their actions are futile.

Perhaps, due to that fact that it is subtle and built up over many episodes, and also that it is "not wearing a newspaper", the implication of the futility of Celestial Being's interventions may have not reached some viewers because they cannot fathom how some of the antagonists cannot just stand up and preach an aside to the crowd.

On closer examination of Celestial Being, we acknowledge it as an organization with unknown power, and political agenda. We know Aeolia Schenberg is its creator, and that it operates under the eyes of a group of observers. The objective is stated from the first episode: the eradication of war through force. The means by which this objective is to be accomplished: Gundams, Gundam Meisters, and Veda.

While actual details about the organization are fairly thready, Celestial Being is not the focus of the show. Rather, because Celestial Being's entirety is vague, the viewers must place their attention on the aspects we DO see of the organization: the Ptolemaios, and the Gundams.

So. Celestial Being is "secretive. It is unstoppable. It always has the initiative. It has no country. No holdings. No people. And hardly ever says a word." If this is so, then Celestial Being is likened to a judgment by God—if the name is not a dead giveaway to begin with. The Gundams are angels of judgment.

But the viewers are given a face to Celestial Being. They are bequeathed the Meisters. And we learn that Celestial Being, for all its attempts to rise above the fray, is upheld by humans, engages in the most primal act of humans (battle), and is brought down by humans.

If Celestial Being is so secretive, then by all means we cannot make assumptions as to what its goals, power, interests, or beliefs are. We can only examine how the Meisters approach their goals and what they learn from experience.

The problem, as I see it, is not whether Celestial Being is right or wrong—in action, in ideology, or in individual reasoning. That is a matter of perspective. Each person has the right to exercise his or her own discretion in 'judging' Celestial Being.

The problem, as I see it, is how someone judges an anime by his or her bias. I note the lovely rating of 1 on this episode's poll (perhaps the 1 is for the good animation, at the very least?), made by a certain unnamed member who had thankfully been absent for the month of March.

I am curious as to how one can have so much to say about a show that he/she has not analyzed well. And for the matter, make all sorts of small complaints about plot and characters (power and newspapers?), and focuses solely on trashing Celestial Being, without regard for the actual message Gundam 00 poses. It's somewhat baffling, also, how those who do not like 00 continue to watch.

About the state of the world: the 00 novel (or so I've heard) states that the 5th Solar War begins A.D. 2292—not too long ago, just the year after Setsuna was born, making it 16 years prior to the present date. If not for the appearance of Celestial Being, who is to say that there will not have been a 6th Solar War? A seventh? The AEU seems fairly desperate to hold onto everything, being the weakest of the three. If pushed enough, AEU might have launched preemptive attacks on the HRL or Union; it might have allied with one or the other, provoking the standalone into action. Interdependency is possibly an issue, but Louise mentions the troubles of moving from territories of one alliance to another, which makes me suspect that the alliances are fairly self-sufficient, especially with their respective orbital elevators.

Altogether, I think a war might have just been on the horizon, if just to duke it out with the other alliances for a bit and gain a little, and then retreat for the next bout after another 20 years. This is the zero-sum game mentioned; if the status quo persisted, this recurring cycle of war may have continued until the alliances tire of it. How many people, by then, will have suffered?

Credit to Wesley84 for all phrases in double quotes.

[Dean_the_Young]

First tip: don't try and speak fancy. If you can't pull it off (and YOU can't, apparently), don't. It makes you sound like you're putting on airs. That or it sounds like Stephen Colbert's parody of a college application essay, that too.

Originally Posted by Colossa

It is quite unbelievable that, at the end of season one, someone actually believes "Celestial Being is protected by the powers of plot".

Translation: "It is hard to believe that anyone would argue that CB has plot protection."

No elaboration, insert switch to different train of though.

So. Celestial Being is 'wrong'.

Wrong in what way? You aren't elaborating or clarifying any position here.

The Gundams are nearly destroyed at the conclusion, with loss in arms and in life. Is the director not showing how 'Celestial Being's way will not work'?

Double negative = no no, unless part of a colloquialism. Up to this point, CB's goal has been working. Even as they are hunted down, it was noted by Celestial Being that unifying the world was the accomplishment of the first phase of The Plan. As it is, Celestial Being's way has been shown to more or less work throughout the series, even if it's as much that others are taking advantage of them as it is them stopping any fighting.

Can the audience deny that the producers' thoughts may reflect this?

Objection! Placing burden of proof on the opposition is a logical failure. I also can deny this, as I did above, therefore making your rhetorical question irrelevant.

How then, pray tell, is Celestial Being "protected by the powers of plot"?

Multiple cockpit stabs/explosions that do not kill counts. Lockon had an open wound (meaning a compromised suit) in open space, and yet only had a lost eye. Setsuna is stabbed in the cockpit by a beam saber with it's own GN drive, and his shoulder isn't even singed, while Graham Acre also survives but is forced to wear a mask. Plot protection is a valid accusation.

Already from the first episode, Graham calls the 'eradication of war by force' a hypocrisy. Not matter what Celestial Being does—saving lives from Earth's acceleration, shouldering the responsibility of eradicating the terrorists they brought out of the woodwork, the resolution of Azadistan's civil war by peaceful means—the world does not accept them, and their actions are futile.

Graham =/= world.
How does Celestial Being save people from Earth's acceleration? That's called an "orbit."
But you're also wrong, because some parts of the world do accept them. Even as the powers tried to get their hands on the Gundams, they accepted them as part of the status quo when they aided Celestial Being in finding the terrorists. Until Alejandro's machinations set up Celestial Being to be framed, people like Saji accepted Celestial Being until the Thrones went on. The people of Azadistan arguably still accept Celestial Being for stopping the Civil World.

More importantly, their actions haven't been futile. It's been pointed out time after time again that Celestial Being has expected to be hated and not cared as long as it reduces/removes war. And we have a number of scenes across the series telling us how clever and successful Celestial Being has been as reducing conflict, at instigating the formation of a united government, and at fighting the sources of conflict.

Perhaps, due to that fact that it is subtle and built up over many episodes, and also that it is "not wearing a newspaper", the implication of the futility of Celestial Being's interventions may have not reached some viewers because they cannot fathom how some of the antagonists cannot just stand up and preach an aside to the crowd.

You're crossing into vague areas here. You are obviously against Celestial Being at this point, and yet antagonist can either mean them (the badguys) or the powers (the people who oppose the main characters of a series).
And again, Celestial Being has actually been successful at reducing conflict according to plan. Call it cannon hax if you must, but it's true.

On closer examination of Celestial Being, we acknowledge it as an organization with unknown power, and political agenda.

Acknowledge? Try "can bloody see with the eyes god gave us." You're trying to sound to smart again. Put away the thesaurus. Celetial Being's power has been the same throughout the series: the Gundams and their GN drives. The depth of that power is what is unknown. Similarly, Celestial Being's ultimate political goal was told to us in episode one. The only unknown has been the means to the end.

We know Aeolia Schenberg is its creator, and that it operates under the eyes of a group of observers. The objective is stated from the first episode: the eradication of war through force. The means by which this objective is to be accomplished: Gundams, Gundam Meisters, and Veda.

And the agents, and the people of the world, and the governments who are going to be pressed to act in their own roles. Everyone is part of the plan.

While actual details about the organization are fairly thready,

Say "rare," "sparse," or some variation of "few." "Thready" implies present but worn out, not covering much. Different implication from not having been given many in the first place.

Celestial Being is not the focus of the show. Rather, because Celestial Being's entirety is vague, the viewers must place their attention on the aspects we DO see of the organization: the Ptolemaios, and the Gundams.

Who are, for all intents and purposes, Celestial Being. Celestial Being isn't the embodyment of Aeolia's ideals; that's the Gundams. Everything else about Celestial Being, from the Meisters to Veda, exist to help the Gundams.

[QUOTE]
So. Celestial Being is "secretive. It is unstoppable. It always has the initiative. It has no country. No holdings. No people. And hardly ever says a word." If this is so, then Celestial Being is likened to a judgment by God—if the name is not a dead giveaway to begin with. [/QUOTEFirst: You're using "likened to" in the wrong context. Never use archaic when you can use modern, unless you like sounding silly.

Bit much of a limb to go out on. God? Aelia was rather clear that Celestial Being had only one goal, and his indication didn't include the words "in my name." There's also the minor part about how this is NOT so, and thus not fit comparing to god. Secretive, yes. Unstoppable? Not till episode 15, or just over six monthes. No country? Neither does NAMBLA, which is also secretive and disturbingly enduring, but I'd hardly call them godly. They have holdings: the Veda complex (hidden), Kraung Thep (not quite as hidden; in the Earth Sphere), and the Ptolemy (found multiple times). They have people, and other people know that; Marina knows Setsuna, the security agencies knew how to leak information to Celestial Being.

Oh, and names are a really, really stupid thing to base value judgments on. I could paint the exia purple, call it Barney, and it still wouldn't be a purple dinosaur. Pick a better argument for unilateral violations other than "they have a cool name." Hell's Angels aren't people from Dante's Inferno, the Florida Gators have little in common with the cousin of the crocodile, and I don't know what the Oakland A's would be like.

The Gundams are angels of judgment.

No, the Gundams are the perfect embodyment of the ideals of Aeolia Schenberg, who maintained hope in humanity for over three hundred years. The Gundams are agents of reform, not punishment. Completely different roles involved.

But the viewers are given a face to Celestial Being. They are bequeathed the Meisters.

Do NOT use bequeath when you mean shown. "Given a face" means to give an appearance. Bequeath means to grant or give. If you bequeath the Meisters, you are giving them to someone else. You aren't showing them, which is what your first sentence says.

And we learn that Celestial Being, for all its attempts to rise above the fray,

Celestial Being never tried to "rise above the fray," because Celestial Being never made it a priority to follow the moral mode until Setsuna started acting on his own. Members of Celestial Being openly acknowledge the hypocrisies they undertake when they act, but they also openly state that they don't care as long as they succeed. That's just about as far from attempting to rise above the fray as you can get; fighting to end fighting is about as much as getting into the fray as you can get.

is upheld by humans, engages in the most primal act of humans (battle),

Primal is something animals instinctively do. Those actions mainly include eating, sleeping, and, as the phrase "primal acts" is normally used, fornicating.

and is brought down by humans.

Apparently not, or they wouldn't be preparing to unleash the 00 on the world along with another set of models.

If Celestial Being is so secretive, then by all means we cannot make assumptions as to what its goals, power, interests, or beliefs are.

No, we can. The goal (not goals) of Celestial Being are about the one thing that isn't secret: the end of conflict.

We can only examine how the Meisters approach their goals and what they learn from experience.
The problem, as I see it, is not whether Celestial Being is right or wrong—in action, in ideology, or in individual reasoning. That is a matter of perspective. Each person has the right to exercise his or her own discretion in 'judging' Celestial Being.

All people are equal? Well, remember the second part of that value: Some people are more equal than others. It should already be clear by now that I think your views are based on faulty reasoning.

The problem, as I see it, is how someone judges an anime by his or her bias. I note the lovely rating of 1 on this episode's poll (perhaps the 1 is for the good animation, at the very least?), made by a certain unnamed member who had thankfully been absent for the month of March.

Actually, that person does it because he/she is a troll. Not much more deep thinking than that. Similarly, not much deep thinking went into all those 10's that keep popping up. It happens.

I am curious as to how one can have so much to say about a show that he/she has not analyzed well.

Tell you what. When I find someone who has analyzed 00 well, I'll be sure to point you in his or her direction.

And for the matter, make all sorts of small complaints about plot and characters (power and newspapers?), and focuses solely on trashing Celestial Being, without regard for the actual message Gundam 00 poses.

A message in a story is whatever you want it to be. "Describe the meaning" is one of the worst essay prompts you can ever get about a book or movie because there is no set meaning. It's the equivalent of being asked "what is your favorite color" when you know the grader has only one correct answer.

It's somewhat baffling, also, how those who do not like 00 continue to watch.

You ain't seen nothing yet. Go into politics watching, and you'll be amazed at the number of democrats who tune into Rush Limbagh.

But there are plenty of reasons to watch something other than for enjoyment. Really, I bet you can think of five off the top of your head.

About the state of the world: the 00 novel (or so I've heard) states that the 5th Solar War begins A.D. 2292—not too long ago, just the year after Setsuna was born, making it 16 years prior to the present date. If not for the appearance of Celestial Being, who is to say that there will not have been a 6th Solar War? A seventh?

I am.
Or, if you'd rather to discuss hypotheticals, who's to say that there would have been one? Who's to say that, in focusing on their own troubles and interests now that the world economy finally recovered (as President Brian told us), that the three powers wouldn't have kept the status quo, gone ahead with colony construction, and more or less enjoyed finally having as much energy as they need?

The AEU seems fairly desperate to hold onto everything, being the weakest of the three. If pushed enough, AEU might have launched preemptive attacks on the HRL or Union;

...please re-read that statement and rethink that conclusion. I know you followed it up somewhat with a more plausible alternative, but please remember the historical precedent for what happens when smaller countries attack more powerful ones. Hint: it started in the late 1930s/early 1940's...

it might have allied with one or the other, provoking the standalone into action. Interdependency is possibly an issue, but Louise mentions the troubles of moving from territories of one alliance to another, which makes me suspect that the alliances are fairly self-sufficient, especially with their respective orbital elevators.

Plus, there's the question of who they would ally with. The HRL is the AEU's neighbor, and it wasn't an HRL design that the AEU decided to copy. At the same time, though, the HRL and the Union have very little in the way of conflicting interests. The closest thing is Australia's proxemity to the HRL tower, which is a strong case AGAINST provoking a war against the Union, not for. On the other hand, though, the Union has been shown to be busy keeping itself together and more or less minding its own buisiness and racing its technology forward. Neither of the other powers have much inclination to play ball on the AEU's terms.

Altogether, I think a war might have just been on the horizon, if just to duke it out with the other alliances for a bit and gain a little, and then retreat for the next bout after another 20 years. This is the zero-sum game mentioned; if the status quo persisted, this recurring cycle of war may have continued until the alliances tire of it. How many people, by then, will have suffered?

Credit to Wesley84 for all phrases in double quotes.

Thousands, surely. Same as have suffered under Celestial Being.

[Wesley84]

I took sick (very sick) and that is why I was gone. I actually haven't watched the last five episodes and haven't really read anything that was unexpected or interesting concerning them. Mecha fights, dramatic minor character deaths, additional layers of Gundam wank, last minute character developements, and a mid-boss who did nothing but sit around and watch for 75% of the series. Basically the same ole same ole, just a bit more extreme in the animation and drama departments.

Nothing I was interested in seemed to have been revealed or events that I would have enjoyed occured. Nothing that wasn't predictable.

I would like an explanation as to what the "Earth Federation" is exactly though. A governing world body seems unlikely, pending extraordinary circumstances. A military alliance maybe?

Anyway, here's hoping the second season will be less about dickheads in space being dickheads to the world, and more about where humanity takes it from here. Along with a much more aggressive and ruthless approach when dealing with anything affiliated with Celestial Being.

[Dean_the_Young]

[Flaming removed - 4Tran]

Edit:I would like to apologize to Wesley for my outburst, and for going against my own advice against ad hominem attacks regardless of one's frustrations. I apologize, and I can assure you that the wonderful device of the "Ignore List" which I finally found will help keep it from happening again.

[mougrim]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Then in Moralia CB attacks a military EXERCISE which ends up crippling the country's economy and causes the deaths of quite a few civilians that would not have died as a result of the military exercise.

Moralia was a nation of mercenaries, weapon-producers and warmongers. If wars will be really eliminated, their economic will be ruined for sure. And if there are no wars - they creating them. Nation like this must be destroyed. Dixi.

[nutype]

is CB protected by plot shield?

yes and no.


YES

Granted they way they got owned they should of all died. If they weren't the protagonists of the show each and every one of them should died. Especially setsuna that got impaled by graham he should of died with explosion. The point is the writers want you to think omgomg they are all going to die befor s2.

NO

So many members of CB have died even the bridge bunnies and at least one of the meisters. The world now has some form of GN technology...

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

That's generally why people try and avoid spoilers and actually watch the show.
If you're too lazy to watch the show or read the pages of summary and discussion, you don't need to be told.

[Flaming removed - 4Tran]

It's not like I actually enjoyed watching the show to begin with. Picking it apart on a weekly basis was what kept me coming back to it, along with the false hope of it actually developing into a good story, told well, but then my health failed me, I was bed ridden for a month, and missed the final episodes. All I want to know was what all that time I spent waiting for something to happen ended up amounting to in the end.

There's no need to call me lazy either. There's a new season starting, I ended up having to drop alot series (even canceled an 43% complete Macross torrent I'd been downloading in preparation for the new series (it looks great btw. I fully expect it to be everything Gundam OO never managed to be to me)), and the fact I'm still in recovery while seeking new employment, I just can't be arsed.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by mougrim

Moralia was a nation of mercenaries, weapon-producers and warmongers. If wars will be really eliminated, their economic will be ruined for sure.

Not really. PMC trust is currently in the employment of the AEU building the solar elevator. PMC goes where the money is, they don't make the conflicts. Assuming that destroying them will end a single conflict is a fallacy of cause and effect. Would you go to a doctor who only treated the symptoms, or would you go to a doctor who gets the root of the problem? Even Sumeragi acknowledged that the best way to remove PMC would be to resolve the sources for war.

And if there are no wars - they creating them.

Any proof for that? Because the anime never said they they go out and start conflicts. LOGOS they are not.

Nation like this must be destroyed. Dixi.

Why, pray tell? Because they build up technological expertise doing what people want done?

[ReddyRedWolf]

Dean stop being a prick with the multiple quotations and criticisms.

It's getting old.

Besides as stated explicitly and implicitly in the plot, eradication of war is not the endgame of CB.

It's something else.

Eifman was taken out of the picture just to give a hint to us viewers.

A united planet under the Eath Federation is just one more phase in the plan.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Dean stop being a prick with the multiple quotations and criticisms.

It's getting old.

Trust me, breaking down into parts makes a response infinitely preferable to trying to simply quote on big blob.

Besides as stated explicitly and implicitly in the plot, eradication of war is not the endgame of CB.

It's something else.

Eifman was taken out of the picture just to give a hint to us viewers.

That was well before we discovered the split within Celestial Being, namely the Alejandro Conspiracy. It's a simple series of connections that lead to the point that the one who ordered Eifman's death was the one the one who was pulling the Throne's strings, IE Alejandro. Who's goal wasn't simply the end of conflict, but instead world domination, in opposition to Aeolia's goals, which have been revealed to honstly have been the end of wars. So Eifman was in fact correct, while Aeolia (and the crew of the Ptolemy) haven't strayed from their beliefs. Celestial Being has since been split, making such a duopoly possible.

A united planet under the Eath Federation is just one more phase in the plan.

But of course. And conflict quite likely hasn't ended yet, meaning Schenberg's goals aren't realized yet. The Meisters still have work to do, while Ribbons has his own plans.

[WhiteWings]

There is plenty of forces who don't agree with the new unity of governments not to mention problems that existed before won't just go away because Earth is united under a single government. And the former three global powers would still to some degree would be fighting over influence within the new government.

The conflicts resulting from the past and etc would be enough to get seond season to kick off.

[Chase]

Conclave-Mendoi finally got around to releasing episode 24 and 25 for those who want it for archive purposes

[iceyfw]

yup just watched 24 and 25 from conclave and mendoi and they were awesome. but i am confused when they showed double 00 gundam. thats not exia right? but a new gundam made because they really look very similar.

and what is this talk about trying to fit a solar furnance into something? the engineer talks about wondering if exia's furnance will fit too but im guessing setsuna hasn't kept in contact with him and he's somewhere with his gundam? (im guessing that was setsuna when Louise saw a green particle flying from the orbit.)

edit - rewatched the last min of the show and im guessing hes trying to find a solar furnance to fit into double gundam 00?

[KiNA]

There's a limited solar furnace around, so they have to refit it to other gundam if the new gundam have better capabilities then the old ones. My guess is each furnace have a unique ability to differentiate it from another furnace, so not all furnace can be interchangeable between gundam, They have to have a similarity purpose.

That being said hi IcEx ^^long time no see ^^

[iceyfw]

that does sound interesting but why build a gundam knowing a solar furnance isn't available for it... especially one that can't synchronize/fit with it. and he totally had an evil look when he mentioned exia's solar furnance >.> i think maybe his intentions may have changed the past 4 years but who knows

[GNWeapon]

Originally Posted by IcExAlcHeMy

yup just watched 24 and 25 from conclave and mendoi and they were awesome. but i am confused when they showed double 00 gundam. thats not exia right? but a new gundam made because they really look very similar.

and what is this talk about trying to fit a solar furnance into something? the engineer talks about wondering if exia's furnance will fit too but im guessing setsuna hasn't kept in contact with him and he's somewhere with his gundam? (im guessing that was setsuna when Louise saw a green particle flying from the orbit.)

edit - rewatched the last min of the show and im guessing hes trying to find a solar furnance to fit into double gundam 00?

Yep 00 Gundam's a new unit. And it was Saji who saw the trail of green particles instead of Louise. Oh that can't be Setsuna as it was another new unit on trail testing already. 00 Gundam is the 2nd in line of the new Gundam suits... supposely.

[Jeffry2009]

Man, I hate Alejandro Corner & Ali Al Sachez officially.

[Last_Hope]

Originally Posted by jafri

I hate Alejandro Corner plus Ali Al Sachez about what he did to Lockon.

You know, this is the first anime in a long, long time (perhaps ever) that I´m not rooting for or "hating" any characters at all. I just want Europe to win. Well, Sweden is an European country.

[Last_Hope]

Originally Posted by jafri

Whatever. But I don't do politics. Sorry.

Politics? If you´ve ever seen a thread which I´ve been active in you ought to know that I pretty much don´t do anything that is real life serious in here. But if it makes you feel better.

"I root for Europe cause they have the hottest army babe and you know also that other dude was cool but uh, he died so uh. Ah, well, they´ve got the hot babe! "

Or you could interpret my post as such that I don´t really like the characters... I like the plot of the show but the characters. They don´t have that much appeal to me, I just can´t feel that which I usually feel which makes me "love or hate" a character. Which was what I was aiming at with my post.

[Jeffry2009]

Opps. sorry about that because i don't know what you're talking about last time.