[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[Matrim]

Spoiler for ep.3:

Another suspicious thing about Battler is the fact that he always survives all the twilights until the very end when the witch is supposed to be resurrected. I don't think anyone else can boast with such an achievemnt, discounting possible fake deaths and so on. If it wasn't for the meta world, tea parties and ???? he would have been very, very suspicious.

I also wonder how come Eva wasn't convicted of the murders in ep.3. OK, she is filthy rich but still if 17 out of 18 people die and only a woman with an ample motive to kill quite a few of them survives, she has got to have even better lawyers than OJ Simpson to avoid a guilty verdict. What if she managed somehow to prove that someone else was the murderer?

[lovelysan]

Spoiler:

Well, one can do amazing things if they have enough money... Still, 17 deaths is a suspicious thing.

And I think it's interesting that we've only been given a small glimpse of the future so far in the games. We haven't really heard ANYTHING about the investigations that must of happened afterward.

[k//eternal]

It was actually kind of interesting when you think about it.

Spoiler:

It was stated that there wasn't even enough evidence to show that a crime had occurred, yet with people getting killed in all these strange ways, it should be incredibly obvious. You'd have to assume that the whole scene had been altered heavily before anyone had a chance to investigate.

[Tjfarmer]

After finishing ep 3, I believe there are 2+ murderers. One of them being Kanon.

Spoiler for Kanon:

As many people have said, when it is said in red text that Kanon is dead, it could mean that his furniture self is dead, thus Kanon, his furniture name is dropped, and he becomes human again. Reverting back to his old name in the process. Making Kanon dead, but his human self alive.

Another thing, Jessica survives till the end in both eps 1 and 3. Kanon would obviously spare her. If there are multiple killers like I assume, it could explain Jessica's early death in Ep 2. The other killer goes to kill Kanon and Jessica, and then the fight ensues between them and Kanon. Jessica dies while Kanon is protecting her, which makes me believe a fire-arm was used from a long distance to hit Jessica in the back. Kanon escapes from the room (his body goes missing) and drops his furniture name after he leaves.

Another thing, Jessica is blinded, so when Kanon's ghost is guiding her, she can't really tell if it is his ghost or not. Kanon tells her she can't touch him, or he'll disappear, so Jessica really can't tell.

And Shannon, he would also spare her. Shannon could have also dropped her furniture name and gone back to Sayo. If Kanon assured Shannon of the survival of George, and maybe some people she's friends with (Battler and Maria?) Shannon could have played dead, with Nanjo as a possible accomplice to Kanon. And when George goes to see Shannon, since Shannon of course isn't dead, she hears Georges voice and replies because its the one she loves. Kanon also kills Nanjo because maybe Kanon thought Nanjo did something to Jessica, so he killed him for revenge.

Spoiler for Other Murderers:

Rosa as one killer, and Eva and Hideyoshi as another. Both of course working separately. Since Rosa's early death in ep 1, she might not be able to kill them..... but, was it ever red-texted that Rosa is dead in ep 1? We could assume that she kills some of them in ep 1, like Kanon maybe, while Kanon killed Eva/Hideyoshi in their rooms. Kanon runs down to the boiler room, and Rosa may be there and she quickly rushes out before others arrive. At the end of EP 1, Maria runs toward someone she knows, which may be Rosa.

Eva and Hideyoshi the other killers, because EP3 in general really makes me thing that. Hideyoshi could have easily created an alibi while she goes and kills Rosa and Maria. There original plan was to only kill Rosa and Maria, but Eva goes to far and kills Rudolf and Kyrie as well, so she can get all the money (and later kills Krauss and Natsuhi) Of course, while Eva and Hideyoshi are fighting she either accidentally kills him or purposely. I want to say accident, but that seems a little far-fetched to me.

[Matrim]

Spoiler for more speculation fun:

The actions of the authorities are certainly interesting thing to ponder. Back in Higurashi we knew just about everything the local police knew. Now we know pretty much only what the epilogue of ep.1 and ???? in ep.3 tell us and it is all extremely vague. In ep.1 apparently all (or most?) bodies were mangled beyond recognition. In ep.3 however the events become known as "an extremely unfortunate accident" and Eva walks away free. Either Eva bribed everyone and their dogs or there was truly grounds for such a verdict. One explanation is that it is all a cover-up. Maybe Rokkenjima is dangerous and there is Rokkenjima syndrome. Maybe Eva managed to hide or destroy all the bodies and then claim people went for a boat ride and the typhoon caught them? Maybe she killed the murderer(s) and had proof.
But we need to turn the chessboard and see what such a thorough investigation would give to us, the readers and guess why the author doesn't show it to us. First, the murder weapons. Second, who is really dead in the end. Third, causes of death. I think it's safe to say Ryuukishi07 wants to keep us in the dark about much of this which means that we probably really shouldn't trust Nanjo's calls about points one and three. For example if the victims of the first twilight did not die because of poison in ep.1 and 2, this would be a big clue that a lone killer is unlikely as you need quite superhuman skills to kill six people without anyone noticing a thing and even move the bodies later.

Spoiler for reply to Tjfarmer:

What's Kanon's motive according to you?

was it ever red-texted that Rosa is dead in ep 1?

Nope, no red text in episode 1. But her face was smashed, so it could have been someone else's body.

[Ithekro]

Curiouser and curiouser.

So one is given a mystery as it happens, but not a clear picture of the aftermath, evidence, nor motives.

Almost makes it unsolvable because you don't have what an investigations team would have....a clear picture of the results. Only frames of what is happening. Text (in red) of what is and what isn't truth. And Meta accounting of things that may or may not be as they actually are (magic vs anti-magic).

Quite the mystery....eh Watson?

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Spoiler for reply to Tjfarmer:

What's Kanon's motive according to you?



Nope, no red text in episode 1. But her face was smashed, so it could have been someone else's body.

Spoiler for speculation:

By red texted I meant in any later games.

And motive is kinda tricky, I think its pretty clear that Kanon does not like being furniture. At least in my opinion, and Kanon thinks that he's nothing more than just furniture, and he has to accept that what he is. If Kanon is truly one of the killers like I suspect, it might be explained, but I like to believe that he thinks if he kills the people that treat him like furniture, he would finally break free from being a furniture, in his eyes, and he wants to spare those that treat him as human (Jessica, for example)

[Klashikari]

Since Beatrice said "killed", you can rule out a "personality" issue. She implied that he died with the literal meaning. So you cannot exactly call out the personality claim here.
Ithekro thought the same, but Beatrice said "killed", not "dead".

[Tjfarmer]

Hmmm..... if that's the case then never mind about the personality thing. But I still think Kanon is suspicious, and has at least killed someone in the first 3 games.


Okay, can someone also explain this to me

Spoiler for end of game:

When you read Battlers description when he's dead, it says
"Jessica lost her eyesight. Battler was with her.
Wolf and sheep puzzle"

There were 3 people at the scene of Battlers death, Eva, Jessica, and of course Battler. It's kinda confusing me, but, wouldn't this mean there were 2 wolfs, and 1 sheep? I feel so dumb for not understanding this....

And since I'm already forgetting, at what point in the game does Beatrice red-text that Kanon was killed, and not dead? Probably first twilight, but I'm forgetting.

Then my other theory is that when Nanjo was killed, Jessica was kinda hallucinating when the killer whispered her to stay there and that they'll come back later. Maybe the whole Kanon ghost thing was an illusion as well, but unless it was brought about by some kinda drug, I believe that to be far fetched as well.

[Klashikari]

Spoiler for episode 3, end:

Basically, Beatrice, with that tips, imply that Battler and Jessica were sheep. But since Jessica lost her sight, she became "void" in the equation and it was 1 sheep (battler) then 1 wolf (Eva? someone else?), hence why he died.
Of course, we cannot take seriously that comment.

As for the red, she said that when Battler proved Kanon's innocence when Rosa was going on a complete paranoia crisis.

Battler: ".........Repeat it. 'Kanon-kun was killed in this room'."

Beatrice: "Hmm. Kanon was killed in this room. But I erased his corpse with magic, right? *cackle*cackle*cackle*!"

As for episode 3, beatrice indeed said they are dead, but as "human". She said

6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!

Which means all of them share the definition of "died". If Kanon is considered alive afterwards, then all of them, which is too far fetched.

[Tjfarmer]

But doesn't that only eliminate my theory for the events in ep 2?

In ep 3 when Beatrice confirms the deaths of all of the victims, did she say dead or killed? All I remember is she listed the names of every victim of the first twilight and then said either dead or killed.

[Klashikari]

She said "dead", but by that extrapolation, it means ALL the six are having personality issue (she is applying the red line for all of the 6 at once, so you cannot consider a definition being "different" for one).

That is really too much especially considering she first said "6 people/human". She pretty clearly state their status.
So they died as human/people, there is no confusion possible.

[Tjfarmer]

Ah, okay thanks. I really need to pay more attention to the game then. Mysteries are not my strong-suit.

Spoiler for speculation:

I guess we can eliminate the fact that Kanon has some personality disorder. But we still have no proof that he hasn't killed anyone at all. Which is why I believe that there are multiple murderers going on. I guess we'll never know until the end of the series, but I still suspect that Kanon, Rosa, Eva and Hideyoshi, have all killed at least one person in all games so far. My mind may change after I play ep 4, but I find those 4 suspicious.

[Avisch]

Rosa is suspicious indeed in episode 1 and 2. But to me details about her personality in episode 3 make her less suspicious.

Spoiler for Ep1-3:

In episode 1 her death cannot be confirmed. Maria was not killed in the parlor.
In episode 2 she is very accusing. The Tea party gives her possible motives (her being put-down as a child, ahh it's so sad! ).

In episode 3 her insistence that Eva tell everyone about the gold doesn't implicate her. The fact that she only wanted a her portion (atleast in Episode 3's scenario) implies that she is not greedy.

[Ithekro]

Brings up the question: are we solving one case, or four individual cases that happened differently each time.

If it is one case, then truths in one should be truths in another, or else something is fraud or open to interpretation...even the red text.

If this is four different cases...then what is true for one may not be true for another. The confusion factor is what is throwing people off I imagine. What is and what is not real. What happened and what did not happen.

[ClockWorkAngel]

I have a feeling that its seperate cases, think about it this way, the true good end may be discovered when the possibility of October the 4th isn't possible.

Also what's the song for when Battler confronts Eva-Beatrice first? The track fits perfectly with his new found badass.

[Avisch]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

If this is four different cases...then what is true for one may not be true for another. The confusion factor is what is throwing people off I imagine. What is and what is not real. What happened and what did not happen.

Well. I think the problem is grasping what parts of the "supernatural events" (this is what I them) are supposed to mean.

Like Virigilia said, both supernatural and natural means are happening at the same time. So we only get the murders at the end as what definitely happened.

For episode 2

Spoiler for episode 2 supernatural:

Kanon protecting Jesssica from the goat-butler. Losing to Stakes.

Do we interpret this as
"Kanon died protecting Jessica, Jessica then was killed" or just "Kanon died and Jessica died"

And thats the beauty of this mystery

[Benny1]

I'm like halfway through episode three or so.

I'm enjoying this so far, minus one scene.

Spoiler for Episode 3:

The scene with Eva-Beatrice tormenting Rosa over and over and over and over was completely disgusting and absolutely tasteless. I hope to never, ever see anything in Umineko like that again.

[Christen]

Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel

I have a feeling that its seperate cases, think about it this way, the true good end may be discovered when the possibility of October the 4th isn't possible.

Also what's the song for when Battler confronts Eva-Beatrice first? The track fits perfectly with his new found badass.

It's 翼 (tsubasa: wings). Pretty appropriate.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Benny1

I'm like halfway through episode three or so.

I'm enjoying this so far, minus one scene.

Spoiler for Episode 3:

The scene with Eva-Beatrice tormenting Rosa over and over and over and over was completely disgusting and absolutely tasteless. I hope to never, ever see anything in Umineko like that again.

That's just the disgusting and tasteless quota for the episode, satisfied by the first twilight murders in the previous games. Agreed that it was pretty vicious, though.