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Old 2010-08-28, 22:27   Link #7601
azul120
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You're leaving out the episodes from R2 7 on, until R2 18/19.
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Old 2010-08-29, 00:19   Link #7602
Revolutionist
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The Black Knights were always going to be disposable pawns in Lelouch's game. Betrayal was a result of these pawns coming to this realization, but it was still insubordination, and they risked their entire "resistance" because they didn't like the facts. Trusting Schneizel was just dumb, they had ZERO guarantee that he would give them Japan just like that, specially when he had another Nuke installed on the Mordred and could just wipe them all out after Lelouch was disposed of.
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Old 2010-08-29, 01:21   Link #7603
Laurcus
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That's exactly what I was trying to say Revolutionist, I really could not have said it better myself.
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Old 2010-08-29, 12:30   Link #7604
Nogitsune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
The Black Knights were always going to be disposable pawns in Lelouch's game. Betrayal was a result of these pawns coming to this realization, but it was still insubordination, and they risked their entire "resistance" because they didn't like the facts. Trusting Schneizel was just dumb, they had ZERO guarantee that he would give them Japan just like that, specially when he had another Nuke installed on the Mordred and could just wipe them all out after Lelouch was disposed of.
Well, to be fair, Schneizel always was quite the diplomat and never jumped at the chance to use force, even willing to give up some power if it would utimately be worth it... but still, this is Japan we are talking about, and after all that had happened, yeah, I really don't get why the Black Knights would take that big a risk. I mean, they were pissed, and they had reason to be, and to the first members, Lelouch was basically taking Naoto's place, which made it even worse... but considering Ougi seemed pretty certain during the Narita arc that Zero knew hatred as well as sorrow, he should have got it to some extent and stopped to think for a minute. Villetta is not some kind of succubus that eats a man's ability to reason, for god's sake, and hey, at least I can see why she would want Ougi to stop fighting so much she'd trust Schneizel, who's Britannian royalty with a reputation and therefore probably pretty awesome to her.
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Old 2010-08-29, 12:42   Link #7605
azul120
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If that's the case, then why would she screw over Lelouch, who she must have known fairly well over that year?
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Old 2010-08-29, 12:47   Link #7606
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
If that's the case, then why would she screw over Lelouch, who she must have known fairly well over that year?
Probably because he lacked Schneizel's reputation, was a terrorist, and had proven to her that he was pretty damn dangerous. Yes, she watched over his "normal school boy" persona for a year, but even if he had given her reasons to consider him trustworthy to some extent then, she knew that this was not his real self. In fact, she might have considered everything about him back then to be "fake".

That, and with Lelouch there, Ougi would most likely have kept fighting.
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Old 2010-08-29, 12:53   Link #7607
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Viletta probably hated Lelouch since outside of his fake school persona (and even then he gave her hard times cutting class and such) all he did was force her to do things against her will.
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Old 2010-08-29, 13:35   Link #7608
azul120
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But it's not like she was innocent there. Remember, she was keeping surveillance over him under the Emperor's orders, and as part of her whole thing with seeking and finally attaining nobility by whatever means necessary. Lelouch blackmailed her only to keep her from ratting him out to the Emperor.
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Old 2010-08-29, 13:44   Link #7609
Kittenlady
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Exactly, so why wouldn't she out to get him? Villetta and Schneizel were only doing what made perfect sense; whatever they could to get rid of the enemy. It's the BK - especially Ougi - who should have had enough sense not to trust them.
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Old 2010-08-29, 13:52   Link #7610
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
But it's not like she was innocent there. Remember, she was keeping surveillance over him under the Emperor's orders, and as part of her whole thing with seeking and finally attaining nobility by whatever means necessary. Lelouch blackmailed her only to keep her from ratting him out to the Emperor.
Still, Villetta had no reason not to screw Lelouch over. He had his reasons, but in the end, that's true for pretty much every character in Code Geass. She saw how easily he controlled Rolo, how he lied to his friends at school, and she knew he had done a lot of shit (in fact, it wouldn't have been hard for her to figure out what happened to Euphie, and she could only make assumptions about the exact circumstances of Shirley's death). She also seemed very much in tune with Britannian ideals until she decided that Ougi was more important, so she'd certainly not want to see her guy risk his life to change the world - under a terrorist who kept a lot of secrets and was more dangerous than any of his subordinates could ever imagine at that.

Villetta is not what most would consider a "good person", and she was shown to only really care about those closest to her. She didn't owe Lelouch anything, and that was his doom. It's not something I resent her for, because I think it wasn't at all surprising - Zero was her enemy from the start, and the only thing he ever did for her was reunite her with Ougi in order to manipulate her. How was she supposed to know he'd not throw him away and leave him to die eventually? She's not an awesome person, but she's no worse than a lot of other characters who don't get nearly the same amount of hatred (though considering the circumstances, I suppose it's not surprising - Lelouch is huggable like that).
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Old 2010-08-29, 13:59   Link #7611
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She's still a Karma Houdini though. Lelouch may have stolen her Sutherland first (and not did anything further about her in Genre Blindness), but when for example Viletta was trying to turn in Zero and got shot by Shirley for her troubles, she was just wanting that promotion, certainly more than revenge on the guy who stole her Sutherland. Frankly, I think Shirley might have been able to stop Viletta from being a Karma Houdini, having done so the first time. Except, oh right, Shirley is dead. She was killed by Rolo.

Now Viletta can be a genuinely good person, but that relies on her being amnesiac, in the same deal as Light Yagami. Lelouch, of course, doesn't rely on it as much.

Anyway, the mutiny isn't an inherently bad concept. But given the way it was handled, and quite possibly even given what had happened in general, the worst Lelouch would have deserved was being investigated and demoted for being inconsistent, certainly not outright killed (at least that is what the BKs would have hoped) on the spot. The Kangaroo Court shenanigans were just uncalled for.
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Old 2010-08-29, 14:09   Link #7612
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Master Knight DH View Post
She's still a Karma Houdini though. Lelouch may have stolen her Sutherland first (and not did anything further about her in Genre Blindness), but when for example Viletta was trying to turn in Zero and got shot by Shirley for her troubles, she was just wanting that promotion, certainly more than revenge on the guy who stole her Sutherland.
So Villetta was trying to catch a terrorist in order to get a promotion. I don't see how that's particularly evil - sure, she dragged Shirley into the mess, but she never expected things to turn out the way they did. And yeah, Britannia as a whole was extremely faulty and "terrorists" could have quite noble motives, but Villetta was definitely not the only Britannian who didn't care about that. Heck, the Japanese often weren't any better, and Tamaki, for example, had no trouble hurting innocent Britannian students because they talked back to him while trying to protect their friends.
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Old 2010-08-29, 14:13   Link #7613
azul120
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Also, Villetta should have known how much he cared for Shirley, and known Rolo well enough to suspect him. (Remember, she witnessed him murder a couple of agents for approaching him the wrong way.) She must have also known him well enough to suspect his Geass could only work once a person. But she said nothing to that effect. Besides, Lelouch had been fighting Britannia, who she had been serving, and was now going to be against with Ohgi, so it's just pure selfishness.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
So Villetta was trying to catch a terrorist in order to get a promotion. I don't see how that's particularly evil - sure, she dragged Shirley into the mess, but she never expected things to turn out the way they did. And yeah, Britannia as a whole was extremely faulty and "terrorists" could have quite noble motives, but Villetta was definitely not the only Britannian who didn't care about that. Heck, the Japanese often weren't any better, and Tamaki, for example, had no trouble hurting innocent Britannian students because they talked back to him while trying to protect their friends.
She was part of the purist faction, and was no better than the rank and file to that effect, and only episodes prior to the betrayal, was trying to kill Ohgi so she could be rid of any association to the Black Knights, so she wouldn't have to worry about losing her nobility.
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Old 2010-08-29, 14:17   Link #7614
Betteroffer
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
So Villetta was trying to catch a terrorist in order to get a promotion. I don't see how that's particularly evil - sure, she dragged Shirley into the mess, but she never expected things to turn out the way they did. And yeah, Britannia as a whole was extremely faulty and "terrorists" could have quite noble motives, but Villetta was definitely not the only Britannian who didn't care about that. Heck, the Japanese often weren't any better, and Tamaki, for example, had no trouble hurting innocent Britannian students because they talked back to him while trying to protect their friends.
THAT's where it gets evil. She had an emotionally confused highschool girl who just lost her father tail a suspected terrorist, whom she clearly had at least a close friendship with, into a dockyard rather than try to get a warrant to search Ashford or any sort of sanctioned survelience team together because she wanted the glory for herself. That is putting herself before the people she is hired to protect and she explicitly stated that she was using Shirley in the event that Lelouch did have mind control powers. Remember, she would also suspect that he used these powers to make Clovis's men kill themselves, given the positioning of their injuries and stances, and could therefore suspect that he might do such to Shirley.

I don't recall any situations where Viletta can be sure or even remotely suspicious that Lelouch didn't deeply care about Rolo. From what I remember, she watched him take a sniper shot for the Vincent just like everyone else and there were no scenes I can remember where he voices anything close to contempt for Rolo to her. Further, he is shown at several times to voice genuine care for the Ashford students to, or at least infront of her. When Viletta suggests letting Shirley take his Cupid day 'ass-hat' (Ha!) and mentions that Shirley liked Lelouch enough to shoot her, Lelouch somberly states that he doesn't want to involve her anymore.
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Old 2010-08-29, 14:21   Link #7615
azul120
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Exactly. Lelouch led a "double life" out of necessity. She also had to have known he wanted Nunnally back as one of his motives, in addition to the world saving thing, as a matter of putting another human face on his struggle.
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Old 2010-08-29, 14:23   Link #7616
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Also, Villetta should have known how much he cared for Shirley, and known Rolo well enough to suspect him.
How would she know that when she rarely interacted with his "real" self? Even if she did realize that Lelouch cared for Shirley, she couldn't know that he wouldn't kill her anyway if she became a threat to his cause. That he kept Rolo around afterwards probably didn't help.

Lelouch had killed two of his siblings already, so even if Villetta suspected only Rolo, she had good reason to be worried about Ougi.

Quote:
She must have also known him well enough to suspect his Geass could only work once a person.
Possible, but who except Lelouch and C.C. really know the limiations of Lelouch's Geass? I'd say even the Emperor could only suspect.

Quote:
Besides, Lelouch had been fighting Britannia, who she had been serving, and was now going to be against with Ohgi, so it's just pure selfishness.
Ougi was risking his life there, and while Villetta most likely had some fondness left for Britannia, I can see why she wouldn't want to see him with the Black Knights, under a traitor to his own county and killer of his own flesh and blood of all people. Villetta didn't know that much about the real him - even if she did, there were things he'd happily have sacrificed Ougi for -, and while I agree that Villetta's way of protecting Ougi wasn't the most noble one, Lelouch himself had a peculiar way of keeping his loved ones save.

Edit:
@Betteroffer: Gah, seen that post too late. You make some good points, and I agree that Villetta did shitty things, but I still say she was no worse than a lot of other characters who get much less hate. Will reply to the rest later!
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Old 2010-08-29, 14:34   Link #7617
Kittenlady
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Villetta's evil because she manipulated an emotionally fragile person? Ok, um, about Lelouch...

I don't even like Villetta, but this all this hate for something that, in her situation, made perfect sense is pretty uncalled for.
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Old 2010-08-29, 14:42   Link #7618
azul120
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Some of those points are a little self-contradictory, Nogitsune. If Lelouch is wrong for turning against his own country, even though he has every reason in the world to, what reason does she herself have? She's only looking out for herself and her desires. I doubt she was concerned about the war. She could have had the decency to ask Lelouch himself, given that they had a couple moments together, instead of playing the victim card. "He used it on me too!" Shut up, bitch. Really, be grateful he didn't order "Die." on your ass, though a LOT of trouble would have been averted had he done so.

And though I suspect you're arguing otherwise Kittenlady, but Villetta was only in it for rank and promotion.
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Old 2010-08-29, 14:50   Link #7619
Kittenlady
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What's wrong with self-interest? It's still a pretty logical decision to make. And I agree, she was a bitch. But at the same time, plenty of other characters were worse or just as bad. That's why I don't get all the hate.

The BK were much worse, if only because they were spectacularly stupid.
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Old 2010-08-29, 14:54   Link #7620
azul120
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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
Nope, she was a bitch. But at the same time, plenty of other characters were worse or just as bad. That's why I don't get all the hate.

The BK were much worse, if only because they were spectacularly stupid.
Perhaps, but at least many of those characters actually stood for something meaningful. Villetta was mostly only about Villetta, and whatever Villetta wanted. Also, a lot of the things she did only served to screw things up even more.

To go back a bit, when making a case against someone, you have to be truthful in your statements, irrespective of your feelings. Anything negative influenced by such constitutes slander.

Last edited by azul120; 2010-08-29 at 15:10.
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