(L+CR) Nobunaga: The Fool

[DragoonKain3]

Lols I guess I wrote off Himiko too early as the Nohime of that universe, considering she and Nobunaga are in a marriage of convenience now. Might not be the love of his life, but I can settle with her being the official wife. :fist pump:

That said, Jeanne looks so much prettier as Ranmaru. I dunno, her previous outift looked like she was trying a bit too hard to look sexy but takes it away instead.

Doesn't make me like her character so far though, being depicted as a helpless damsel-in-distress that always needs Nobunaga's intervention.

[BW95]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Lols I guess I wrote off Himiko too early as the Nohime of that universe, considering she and Nobunaga are in a marriage of convenience now. Might not be the love of his life, but I can settle with her being the official wife. :fist pump:

That said, Jeanne looks so much prettier as Ranmaru. I dunno, her previous outift looked like she was trying a bit too hard to look sexy but takes it away instead.

Doesn't make me like her character so far though, being depicted as a helpless damsel-in-distress that always needs Nobunaga's intervention.

I'm going to miss that outfit.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by Anime Online

I don't see why Jeanne has to be useful, or even skilled at arms.

Historically, she was just a farmgirl who allegedly saw visions to save France from the English. Though she was indeed accoutered as a knight and was involved (even wounded in action) in several battles, she was mainly a standard bearer who raised the army's morale. This belief came from her testimony in her trial in which she stated she preferred her standard to her sword. The French army did enjoy remarkable success when she was with them, though whether it was by the intervention of God or if she indeed had a hidden talent for military tactics is up to what you wish to believe.

However, Jeanne did display quick wit. During her trial in which religious prosecutors sought to trap her with questions that would indicate her guilt either way, Jeanne answered in such a way that left the prosecutors stupefied.

She doesn't need to be skilled at arms, although she should be useful in some way (doesn't have the be combat related). Right now she's absolutely useless in every possible manner. She's basically the child character right now, which would be fine if she was a child, but she's a fully grown adult.

Joan of Arc's role in battles is still a hotly debated topic. There are many historians who believe she was a brilliant strategist too, not just a standard bearer for morale. Even aside from those issues, the fact is the historical Joan of Arc was a person with extreme conviction and strength of personality. She was someone who inspired an entire nation. She did it all while being a child and a girl, which at that time was basically a non-person. The show's Jeanne is actually offensive in how inept she is.

Originally Posted by Gohan78

Not to mention that this girl is not the hystorical Jeanne D'Arc, but a fictional "Jeanne Kaguya D'Arc" who lives in a far future. The same thing goes for Nobunaga and the other characters. Complaining about the characters in this show not being consistent with their real-life counterparts makes no sense.

They don't have to be consistent, but Jeanne is a terribly written damsel character even without the association to the historical Joan. Imagine if the roles were reversed and Nobunaga basically does nothing while the other characters come in, tell him he's the Savior King, and fight all his battles and makes his decisions for him. Wouldn't be very interesting show would it? Not to mention, Jeanne is already a reincarnation of Ranmaru, making her Joan's reincarnation is just overkill and basically a plot device to include the western star's characters. The whole thing just feel's cheap and not very well thought out.

Originally Posted by BW95

Kaguya will inevitably have a part to play in all this. She does have a regalia after all, but for now I think it's best to think of her as an observer.

There are plenty of ways to portray an observer without making her into such a weak character. C.C. in Code Geass was an observer for most of the series (especially early on) but she was portrayed as mysterious character that was an equal to Lelouch, with her own hidden agenda. Mineva Zabi spends most of Gundam Unicorn being rescued by different Newtypes but she has incredible presence and strength of character.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Esclair

She doesn't need to be skilled at arms, although she should be useful in some way (doesn't have the be combat related). Right now she's absolutely useless in every possible manner.

We're on episode 3 of a two-cour series. She's been taken from her home and her usual environment and stuck in a situation that she has zero control over. She's barely had any time to even familiarize herself with her new environment. How on earth would she be "useful"? Who on earth would be "useful" in her situation?

Originally Posted by Esclair

Even aside from those issues, the fact is the historical Joan of Arc was a person with extreme conviction and strength of personality. She was someone who inspired an entire nation. She did it all while being a child and a girl, which at that time was basically a non-person. The show's Jeanne is actually offensive in how inept she is.

................................Episode 3. Of a two-cour show. Character development. Stuff like that.

(Also, what history, really. Hannibal and Machiavelli are girls and Takeda Shingen has an awesome mecha.)

Seriously, I just don't understand what people expect. That she just start out kicking ass and taking names and stay like that for the rest of the series or what?

[kk2extreme]

One wife down, many to go???

[Amario]

LOL now that is one way to get a guy haha, she is one sly queen.
On another note the ending song is seriously addictive. xD

[Haak]

Frankly I don't care whether Jeanne is useful or can do anything or has any skills. I'd just like her to have some actual personality. We're now three episodes in and even after the scene where she saved the kids from the fire, it still doesn't seem like she's gotten past the basic premise of her character. In a sense I do consider her useless: Useless to the story.

[Wandering Soul]

I guessed that Himiko had some sort of plan when I first saw her but when she finally revealed what her plan was I could do nothing but just laugh. So I looks like Himiko might be the best in the series at manipulating others

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

We're on episode 3 of a two-cour series. She's been taken from her home and her usual environment and stuck in a situation that she has zero control over. She's barely had any time to even familiarize herself with her new environment. How on earth would she be "useful"? Who on earth would be "useful" in her situation?

How about to herself? She hasn't been 'taken' to her home, Leonardo basically comes and asks her if she wants her destiny, and she just goes along with it with no thoughts of her own. Instead of just being a 'passenger', she should be the 'driver'. I've already outlined my thoughts on how she should have been portrayed in episodes 1-2 in this post: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=384 The plot and outcomes remain identical but Jeanne would come off as an 'active' character instead of 'passive' character like she is now.

................................Episode 3. Of a two-cour show. Character development. Stuff like that.

(Also, what history, really. Hannibal and Machiavelli are girls and Takeda Shingen has an awesome mecha.)

Seriously, I just don't understand what people expect. That she just start out kicking ass and taking names and stay like that for the rest of the series or what?

What about the other characters? They all seem to be 'useful'. Are you saying it would not be possible to develop their characters anymore because they're not portrayed like Jeanne? Nobunaga is already kicking ass and taking names, but there's still a lot of potential for his character to grow. Character development is far more than just going from useless to becoming a kick-ass character.

The current Jeanne is a poorly written character not because she's physically weak, but because her ONLY characteristic is being weak and indecisive. She has no goals aside from 'seeking her destiny', and it isn't even that strong of a goal because Leonardo had to come and push her to seek it. She has no idea what it even means aside from finding who the Savior King is. Of course, once she does find him she just tags along because she doesn't even know what else to do.

We aren't shown why she's even seeking her destiny aside from the fact that she has dreams about it. Does she have any other interests/desires aside from this? What does she plan to do after fulfilling her destiny? What is her opinion on the development and relationship between the Eastern and Western stars? Has she lost faith in the political leaders of the Western Star? What's her opinion on Leonardo? What about the situation on the Eastern Star? Her stance on warfare?

These are all questions that would tell us more about her as a character, as well as being highly relevant to the plot, yet we're 3 episodes in and virtually none of this is addressed. Her only role so far is to be someone for Nobunaga to rescue, and she basically has no opinions on anything, even her own 'destiny'.

[mayumi]

ah the topics of destiny and fate, how I detest them since EVOL.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Esclair

Instead of just being a 'passenger', she should be the 'driver'.

Says who? You. Just because that fits more of whatever image you have of her in your mind.

Originally Posted by Esclair

I've already outlined my thoughts on how she should have been portrayed in episodes 1-2 in this post: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=384 The plot and outcomes remain identical but Jeanne would come off as an 'active' character instead of 'passive' character like she is now.

But you're not the writer and the writer didn't do what you would've liked them to do. Next time apply for a place in the writing staff. Or write fanfic.

Originally Posted by Esclair

What about the other characters? They all seem to be 'useful'.

Frankly, I don't understand what you mean by "useful"...

Originally Posted by Esclair

Character development is far more than just going from useless to becoming a kick-ass character.

1) Who says that's where her character development is going? 2) Something tells me you weren't really paying attention to her dialogue.

Originally Posted by Esclair

The current Jeanne is a poorly written character not because she's physically weak, but because her ONLY characteristic is being weak and indecisive.

Episode three, character development, character arc, etc. etc. etc.

Originally Posted by Esclair

She has no goals aside from 'seeking her destiny'

What's wrong with that?

Originally Posted by Esclair

and it isn't even that strong of a goal because Leonardo had to come and push her to seek it. She has no idea what it even means aside from finding who the Savior King is. Of course, once she does find him she just tags along because she doesn't even know what else to do.

Basically, your problem is that you want the character to be someone she isn't and have a story that this anime is not about. As I said - write fanfic.

Originally Posted by Esclair

We aren't shown why she's even seeking her destiny aside from the fact that she has dreams about it. Does she have any other interests/desires aside from this? What does she plan to do after fulfilling her destiny? What is her opinion on the development and relationship between the Eastern and Western stars? Has she lost faith in the political leaders of the Western Star? What's her opinion on Leonardo? What about the situation on the Eastern Star? Her stance on warfare?

.......episode. three. Plot. Character arc. Character development. And so on and so forth. Really, I just don't understand what you want from the story after 3 episodes that didn't even focus on her.

Originally Posted by Esclair

These are all questions that would tell us more about her as a character, as well as being highly relevant to the plot, yet we're 3 episodes in and virtually none of this is addressed.

Maybe... just maybe... because the anime was too busy setting up the world and the main character (that is Nobunaga, not Jeanne) and thus focusing on things that are not Jeanne.

[Esclair]

Frankly, I don't understand what you mean by "useful"...

Lemme rephrase it. Useful isn't a very good term. I think 'impact' is a better word for it. First, there's impact on plot. She basically has none. You can remove all her scenes from the first 3 episodes and only need to tweak a few scenes and there would be no difference. Leonardo would have just gone to seek the Savior King himself, Nobunaga would still get into The Fool, and the events of episode 3 would have happened exactly as it unfolded. All the sub-conflicts between the different political factions would not have altered at all. That's how little impact Jeanne has on the plot.

Then there's character impact. She has virtually no interesting character relationships with anyone aside from Nobunaga, and even there it's virtually one sided as Nobunaga treats her pretty much as a side character of little note. He already has a fairly complicated web of relationship with the other characters too, which is far more interesting. Again, you can remove her and everyone else would stay the same.

Finally, there's audience impact, which she also fails at. Her lack of plot and character impact, coupled with the fact that we know virtually nothing about her except her use as a plot device makes her an extremely uninteresting character. An irrelevant side character can still be memorable if they have an interesting personality or aura, but she's completely lacking in that area too. I'd even say quite a few of her scenes have 'negative' impact, ie, I think less of her as a character because of them. Her interactions with Hideyoshi consists of him staring at her breasts, then fondling them and getting slapped. Then there's the scene with her trying to bind her breasts. Later Nobunaga makes a joke about her breasts. She's basically the 'boob joke' character now.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Says who? You. Just because that fits more of whatever image you have of her in your mind.

But you're not the writer and the writer didn't do what you would've liked them to do. Next time apply for a place in the writing staff. Or write fanfic.

Basically, your problem is that you want the character to be someone she isn't and have a story that this anime is not about. As I said - write fanfic.

Episode three, character development, character arc, etc. etc. etc.

.......episode. three. Plot. Character arc. Character development. And so on and so forth. Really, I just don't understand what you want from the story after 3 episodes that didn't even focus on her.

Maybe... just maybe... because the anime was too busy setting up the world and the main character (that is Nobunaga, not Jeanne) and thus focusing on things that are not Jeanne.

[/quote]

I just gave some examples of how it could be done without changing any of the plot or adding any extra scenes. If I just said Jeanne is useless without giving some examples of how it could be done people would just say 'there's not enough time, or it can't be done with everything else going on'. Of course the writers might have something else in mind for her character, but they're pretty much wasting all the time spent on her scenes. She has probably the most screen time after Nobunaga yet she has less impact than Himiko who only had less than 3 minutes of screen time and was only introduced in episode 3. Jeanne's character is just very poorly utilized so far considering how much time has been focused on her.

[Anime Online]

The anime is called Nobunaga: The Fool. It's obvious Nobunaga (and his mech) is going to be the central focus of the show, and everyone else that hangs around him are side-characters whose existence is to show how awesome Nobunaga is.

Da Vinci? He gave Nobunaga the mecha and now he's mostly a walking exposition device now. Mitsuhide? He does all the crap Nobunaga can't be bothered with. Hideyoshi? A trailer driver. Takeda Shingen? Just a mid-boss that goes down while guffawing.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by Anime Online

The anime is called Nobunaga: The Fool. It's obvious Nobunaga (and his mech) is going to be the central focus of the show, and everyone else that hangs around him are side-characters whose existence is to show how awesome Nobunaga is.

Da Vinci? He gave Nobunaga the mecha and now he's mostly a walking exposition device now. Mitsuhide? He does all the crap Nobunaga can't be bothered with. Hideyoshi? A trailer driver. Takeda Shingen? Just a mid-boss that goes down while guffawing.

Da Vinci is far more important to the plot than Jeanne is so far. He's the one that pushes Jeanne to seek her destiny. His betrayal is what forces the Round Table to speed up their time table. He gives Nobunaga his War Armor, as well as the character that will deal with all the technology and armaments and acts as a guide for their destinies. You cannot take him out of the story without significantly rewriting the plot lines. They'd end up needing another character to replace his role. Jeanne so far is completely removable without affecting anything.

Mitsuhide is Nobunaga's friend, as well as a buffer to help him deal with the court politics of the Oda household. Like you said, he fills in for the things that Nobunaga cannot do. Not to mention it's hinted that he has a complex relationship with Ichihime and of course there's the high possibility of his eventual betrayal.

The other 2 are throw away characters, but big the difference between the characters you named and Jeanne is that while those are considered 'supporting' characters, Jeanne is considered a 'main' character. Even if Nobunaga is supposed to be the only main character Jeanne has much more screen time than any other supporting character, yet her impact is less than Mitsuhide, Leonardo, and even the newly introduced Himiko. In fact, I'd say Mitsuhide is probably third in screen time behind Nobunaga and Jeanne, yet almost all his scenes are well utilized, giving us new information about his relationship with Nobunaga, his vision of Nobunaga, his criticism of the current Oda household and tradition, and of course foreshadowing for future events that he will highly likely incite.

[Darthtabby]

While I have my doubts about Jeanne, I think it's a little early to be writing her off entirely. My hope is that the direction they've chosen to take her in the beginning here will pay off in the long run. One thing I do like about her (despite it not fitting very well with either the real Jeanne or Ranmaru) is that she seems to have doubts about Nobunaga. There are times where she seems to be thinking something along the lines of "this is my saviour king?"

[NoemiChan]

I hope Jeanne is the lead heroine or at least, the first wife in Nobunaga's harem. I just can't bare to see her be a "guy". It's heart aching...T_T

[DragoonKain3]

Originally Posted by NoemiChan

I hope Jeanne is the lead heroine or at least, the first wife in Nobunaga's harem.

I thought Himiko just became Nobunaga's first wife this episode?

[Gohan78]

Originally Posted by Esclair

The current Jeanne is a poorly written character not because she's physically weak, but because her ONLY characteristic is being weak and indecisive. She has no goals aside from 'seeking her destiny', and it isn't even that strong of a goal because Leonardo had to come and push her to seek it. She has no idea what it even means aside from finding who the Savior King is. Of course, once she does find him she just tags along because she doesn't even know what else to do.

I think you are selling her short. In this episode alone she:

- was the only one who had the gall to talk back to Nobunaga
- gained Nobukatsu's trust and started training in archery
- asked Nobu to "treat her like a man on the battlefield"
- saved three children from a fire.

I'd say she was more useful than "Monkey". The fact that she owns a Regalia clearly means that she will become key in the future. Give her some time!

[greensoulreaper]

Originally Posted by the one above all

I guessed that Himiko had some sort of plan when I first saw her but when she finally revealed what her plan was I could do nothing but just laugh. So I looks like Himiko might be the best in the series at manipulating others

I can't believe how fitting saying "keikaku doori" is right now.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

I thought Himiko just became Nobunaga's first wife this episode?

But not actually his love interest yet....