Being Open Minded.

[Kiomi]

I hope This is the right spot to post this, ^^ sorry if it isn't. (its about anime so it can't go into General Chat).

My reply to somone in another forum:
I really like being open minded about men's oppinions and womens. I really don't want to be a bitchy type of wife all husbands talk about. I can go from Love Hina (Negima) Midori no Himi, to Ouran Host Club and Hot Gimmick haha. If i actually fall inlove I don't want my life ruined later by misunderstandings ><. I think guys should try that more xD......watch really girly anime that way you can understand your girlfriend.
_
My brother usually watchs Echii, and He will usually ask me to watch them becuase he thinks its funny or good. I do end up watching alot of Echii and likeing it, So i tell him to watch some Shojo anime with me. Hahahaha he usually finds them Cheesy and stupid. The only one he has liked so far is Ouran Host Club.

As a girl,Ive also noticed that in Echii the men are interested in girls for what they physicly can do more then how they are on the inside. If they are cute, Can they cook, How she stands. Its almost as if the guy knows the girl inside to out by just the first glance. Then after a man looks at her from the outside he will get to know her from the inside. AND THAT THIS IS NOT BAD, this is simply how men are and look at it in a more positive way. Many Women will be like OH THAT PERVERT. When he isn't....they are just naturally drawn to the way women look and grew up that way.

For Shojo, Its all about how the guys are on the inside. The Main character might end up falling for a hot guy, but it was never for how he looked. Its mostly how it is on the inside. Getting to know him, seeing his weakness, finding his soft spot. And the women seem to want to belief men will want to do the same. Men will never understand you unless you show him. I don't ever see a normal boy or man suddenly fall into a long sentence of love.

I think if more women read Echii and more men saw Shojo's and come to a understanding the world would be a better place? hahaha.....i guess? xD

Now if your a guy who read this, do you agree with what I said about echii, do you view things differently. (all people are diffrent)

If you were a girl who read this do you agree with what I wrote about in the Shojo section.

I really want to see how people view things, ^^. I really think people should be opened so, hey I thought why not make a post about this.

******Oh and please don't flame, PLEASE!!!******

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kiomi

I really like being open minded about men's oppinions and womens. I really don't want to be a bitchy type of wife all husbands talk about. I can go from Love Hina (Negima) Midori no Himi, to Ouran Host Club and Hot Gimmick haha. If i actually fall inlove I don't want my life ruined later by misunderstandings ><. I think guys should try that more xD......watch really girly anime that way you can understand your girlfriend.

Heh - that's pretty admirable. Reminds me of my sisters, who also watch a pretty wide range of shows, usually based on my recommendations. As a general rule, they find fanservice/ecchi "unnecessary", but can still enjoy the show anyway. To be truthful, though, I actually have a higher shoujo anime tolerance than they do.

I think your assessment about how men and women generally see characters in anime is pretty insightful. On the way men and women see fanservice, I brought up a related topic a little over two years ago (it's an old thread now, though, but there were some interesting points mentioned back in the day). As you mentioned, men have this way of looking at people, and even characters in fiction, that's sort of "outside-in" - if you look at your average guy anime fan's list of favourite anime character, it doesn't end up being all about looks, even if looks may attract a person to a character in the first place. Women seem to have a harder time looking past this "first phase of attraction" in men, whether you're talking about fiction or real life. As such, I often find that women get more offended by fanservice than men even notice it. I think it's because, as you say, they're trying too hard to tie it to some deeper motivation on the inside (like, "he must not find me attractive!" or "who knows how far it goes in his perverted little mind!"), whereas it seems to me that it's a much more "surface level" thing. But this becomes one of those great Pygmalion Projects in a relationship, where the woman's always trying to change the man to be less visually-oriented, and more interested in the emotional side of relationships. Not that it's always like that, but it's something I've seen fairly often. The answer, as you so wisely pointed out, is in trying to understand each other.

I definitely agree with your tone - if people try to "meet each other half-way", even when it comes to something like watching anime, and can approach everything with an open mind, it can only lead to greater undersanding. I think we can all agree that's a good thing. Good post, Kiomi.

[jedinat]

I usually find ecchi annoying (too distracting!). And I read/watch way too much shoujo for my own good. (and unfortunately enjoy everything but some of the mahou-shoujo stuff) So what does that make me, being a guy?

*cries*

[Kiomi]

Originally Posted by jedinat

I usually find ecchi annoying (too distracting!). And I read/watch way too much shoujo for my own good. (and unfortunately enjoy everything but some of the mahou-shoujo stuff) So what does that make me, being a guy?

*cries*

=O thats really cool. Shoujo? ive never seen it spelled that way ^^. If only my borther would like Shoujo, everytime theres a "cheesy" moment he makes a funney noise and leaves the room. v.v I hope he never reads this btw xDDDD

[Aiya Kasai]

Originally Posted by Kiomi

=O thats really cool. Shoujo? ive never seen it spelled that way ^^. If only my borther would like Shoujo, everytime theres a "cheesy" moment he makes a funney noise and leaves the room. v.v I hope he never reads this btw xDDDD

That's how its spelt...lol.

Oh hey its cool if a guy can watch Shoujos...because guy's (from what i've seen)...think they need to act a certain way at all times. They can't do this or that...because it might make them look "gay"....

You reading Shoujos is a good thing...lol.

[Kiomi]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Heh - that's pretty admirable. Reminds me of my sisters, who also watch a pretty wide range of shows, usually based on my recommendations. As a general rule, they find fanservice/ecchi "unnecessary", but can still enjoy the show anyway. To be truthful, though, I actually have a higher shoujo anime tolerance than they do.

I think your assessment about how men and women generally see characters in anime is pretty insightful. On the way men and women see fanservice, I brought up a related topic a little over two years ago (it's an old thread now, though, but there were some interesting points mentioned back in the day). As you mentioned, men have this way of looking at people, and even characters in fiction, that's sort of "outside-in" - if you look at your average guy anime fan's list of favourite anime character, it doesn't end up being all about looks, even if looks may attract a person to a character in the first place. Women seem to have a harder time looking past this "first phase of attraction" in men, whether you're talking about fiction or real life. As such, I often find that women get more offended by fanservice than men even notice it. I think it's because, as you say, they're trying too hard to tie it to some deeper motivation on the inside (like, "he must not find me attractive!" or "who knows how far it goes in his perverted little mind!"), whereas it seems to me that it's a much more "surface level" thing. But this becomes one of those great Pygmalion Projects in a relationship, where the woman's always trying to change the man to be less visually-oriented, and more interested in the emotional side of relationships. Not that it's always like that, but it's something I've seen fairly often. The answer, as you so wisely pointed out, is in trying to understand each other.

I definitely agree with your tone - if people try to "meet each other half-way", even when it comes to something like watching anime, and can approach everything with an open mind, it can only lead to greater undersanding. I think we can all agree that's a good thing. Good post, Kiomi.

Oh no, im double posting >.<. I read your last post actually ^^. I watched Straw Berry eggs also, I really liked it xD. What you said about fanserivice, I can withstand some fan service because it can be really funny, and somtimes a show needs a good sexual glow (breasts w/e) just so the audience can live a little. But I think....that its kinda gives guys (or girls) this sexual fantasy. I stand in the mirror and look at my self and i still can't understand why men are so interesting in........*cough*. I think censoring nude off TV shows kinda gave humans some sort of fantasy. I'm an artist so Im pretty used to all of it... so i don't go "oooo" and "aaahhh" to much at men's bodies. and thanks ^^

[NoSanninWa]

I also watch a wide variety of anime. Though I tend more to watching more shojo than ecchi since most ecchi is just too superficial for me to tolerate.

I appreciate your view on how ecchi is written. Of course it is that way because most men actually view women like that. They start by looking at a woman's outside (and perhaps a few small facts about her), then start making assumptions about who she really is. Of course this is a dramatic oversimplification.

Similiarly the shoujo model is based on a simplification of what women is like.

Actually both of these models are based on stereotypes of human nature and prove the rule that stereotypes are sometimes created because there really are many people like that. Unfortunately.

Perhaps more men should watch shoujo and more women should watch ecchi. In this way both genders would become a little bit more like each other. They would come to broaden their understanding of each other and grow as humans.

[Ziv]

Originally Posted by Aiya Kasai

That's how its spelt...lol.

Oh hey its cool if a guy can watch Shoujos...because guy's (from what i've seen)...think they need to act a certain way at all times. They can't do this or that...because it might make them look "gay"....

You reading Shoujos is a good thing...lol.

*takes note*
could you give some more examples? I'm gonna be goin to college in a few months and first impressions are very important =P

[npal]

I prefer shoujo to ecchi. I refrain from watching ecchi, it's usually crude and unnecessary, and most of the time I can't get what's so funny about it. Fanservice fares better, since there's a number of shows that use fanservice intelligently and sparingly instead of making it tasteless.

On the contrary, shoujo anime make up a good percentage of what I watch.

Other than that, I watch a variety of shows (excessive gore or horror is usually a no-no, though).

I don't care who watches what (unless someone watches shounen-ai/yaoi Yuri, I can handle ) but I haven't seen many girls watching ecchi. On the other hand, I know many guys who watch shoujo shows on a regular basis.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Kiomi

As a girl,Ive also noticed that in Echii the men are interested in girls for what they physicly can do more then how they are on the inside. If they are cute, Can they cook, How she stands. Its almost as if the guy knows the girl inside to out by just the first glance. Then after a man looks at her from the outside he will get to know her from the inside. AND THAT THIS IS NOT BAD, this is simply how men are and look at it in a more positive way. Many Women will be like OH THAT PERVERT. When he isn't....they are just naturally drawn to the way women look and grew up that way.

For Shojo, Its all about how the guys are on the inside. The Main character might end up falling for a hot guy, but it was never for how he looked. Its mostly how it is on the inside. Getting to know him, seeing his weakness, finding his soft spot. And the women seem to want to belief men will want to do the same. Men will never understand you unless you show him. I don't ever see a normal boy or man suddenly fall into a long sentence of love.

Granted, I haven't gone far with many shoujo romances, but personally I find them both comparable in a way. The difference is the focus or the aspect that gets the most attention in the end. Indeed, in ecchi the usual scenario would have the main guy get attracted or fascniated with the main heroine's looks at first, and from that point on he gets into the mix of learning more about her character and personality. What comes next? Problems, the usual comedy, rivals, so on and so forth.

From my limited experience from stuff like the usual Watase fare (just two titles if anyone's wondering, including Escaflowne and some Karekano as well) it's my opinion that the same is actually true in shoujo. The main girl, usually plain-looking but sweet—as opposed to the plain and simple-minded, often perverted shounen hero—is usually struck by the looks of the main love interest in the beginning. Not only by his looks, but his reputation among his peers usually makes quite the impression upon the girl as well—like falling for the smart and brave hearthrob who every guy wants to be, falling for the so-called "bad boy" personality, or getting impressed by what this "perfect" man is capable of doing. In this sense it's quite similar, wouldn't you think so?

Such first impressions are portrayed in a similar fashion as that of shounen, only with differing gender perspectives. In fact, it's quite interesting that you mention that the heroine falls for the "hot guy." The "inside" as you put it, gets fleshed out later on just like in shounen. The angst, the drama, the conflicts to their budding relationship and so on—which actually end up being comparable to the general pattern (wherein challenges are faced later on after the "she's hot!" phase) in your standard shounen romance...only less ecchi. The one thing that truly separates them is the seriousness or the manner in which the content is fleshed out, and from whose perspective.

Anyway, that's my personal opinion regarding this matter. But if anyone's wondering, I enjoyed the love story in RahXephon a lot while preferring the more dramatic, understated variety such as Tsukihime in general.

[physics223]

Truth be told, I never liked ecchi much. It often irked me. I fall head over heels for well-made shoujo romances like Honey & Clover (I assume it's shoujo); like kujoe, I also love subtly-told complex stories with understatement. Tsukihime's the best of both worlds for me: it contains a Faulknerian complexity along with the Hemingway-esque understatement (patented by Hemingway himself). More men should watch shoujo. More women should watch more shoujo as well. XD

[leongsh]

Originally Posted by physics223

I fall head over heels for well-made shoujo romances like Honey & Clover (I assume it's shoujo);

It's josei, i.e. targeted at young women, and not shoujo, i.e. targeted at young/teenage girls.

I do watch a wide variety but my preference is generally skewed towards shows which are targeted at seinen (young men), e.g. Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Monster, Zipang, Emma, to name but a few.

[DaFool]

Actually more men read shoujo than you give them credit for, especially those in the prime otaku age (mid-twenties).

Its also the age where a guy is more likely to appreciate Memoires of a Geisha more than X-Men 3.

I agree with kujoe that the outside-in approach also pertains to some shoujo, but instead of looks, it is social status or reputation. How many male characters in shoujo are rich? Or the captain of the kendo / basketball / soccer team? Do you know how almost impossible it is for the average loser otaku to achieve such alpha-male status?

Now take the inverse. The love interests in shounen / seinen have varieties of simplistic personalities, as well as hair colors, bust sizes, and patterns on their panties. In other words, it takes very little to get a boy's love interest flowing. Even an average girl can fit this profile if she dolls up, behave charmingly, or heck, even like a child and leave her brain behind.

Even if you concentrate on the visuals---remember females have a wider variety of color and texture perception than males (an evolution of berry-picking in hunter-gatherer societies)---in general, a man would always consider you prettier than you consider yourself, simply because his eyes focus on the highlights rather than the details. Just look at all the girls in boys' romance who don't bother to comb their hair!

My conclusions: more alpha-males in shoujo, less alpha-females in shounen (they mostly appear in gunslinging animes with minimal romantic developments)

Take the two Haruhi shows for example. The Ouran Haruhi had to have a setting in a rich, elite school. The Suzumiya Haruhi setting is just an average high school. I'd say the requirements for a shounen / seinen romance are less. Also, have you heard about a shoujo / josei romance in an engineering school? No, because alpha males are not found in engineering schools, just dorks. Romances are overwhelmingly featured in art schools. Thus Ah! My Goddess hits right home by fulfilling a need for romance in a technical environment. Also Love Hina to some effect, since we're poor guys in cram school or in a low-end technical job. Unless we come to some inheritance, or unless the power law which governs the allocation of resources in society gets changed, the only way to achieve such status is by busting one's ass for 30 years. Humans being hypergamous, the females marry up, the males marry down. That's why the two groups of unattached people are old rich women and young poor men. (Guess what demographic are otaku?) Nevertheless, shows such as Honey & Clover almost approach realistic males by presenting affable guys. However, it is still an art setting. In fact its the girls this time that turn me off.

Now back to shounen / seinen romance. When a guy finally decides on his love interest (if ever he does), then he usually zeroes in hunter-style on her. That can mean absolute loyalty and fidelity. Unfortunately, very few harem anime have decided protagonists...they are mostly of the annoying undecided types.

Now, as to whether the inside counts, yes, but its different for men and women. In general, for men it is what you do, for women it is what you are. Thus a love interest for a male doesn't need to have social status already, she just needs to show the charm that she's on her way (like having a tsundere personality and bossing him around). Ironically the most romantic situations are just the opposite...in shoujo, its dialogue and actions, whereas in shounen, its just being. ("Don't talk to me. Just be with me.") Examples: Sitting reading a book (Saiyuri in Place Promised in our Early Days, Yuki Nagato in Haruhi) or sitting in a train with the head on one's shoulder. The emphasis here is on Companion rather than Lover. A woman's aim is to make her lover her best friend (husband). A man's aim is to make his friend is lover.

I used to consume lots of shoujo, until the dramatic seinen slice-of-life genre (Mushishi, Kino no Tabi, Aria, Emma) came to fruition. Since I've never had any serious romantic experience, I don't care about interpersonal relationships but instead like to watch likeable characters doing either everyday things or what they do best. Now if that includes getting an occasional peek up their skirt, why all the better.

[physics223]

Originally Posted by leongsh

It's josei, i.e. targeted at young women, and not shoujo, i.e. targeted at young/teenage girls.

I do watch a wide variety but my preference is generally skewed towards shows which are targeted at seinen (young men), e.g. Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Monster, Zipang, Emma, to name but a few.

Oh, that. I stand corrected. I'm generally skewed towards josei and seinen as well; I ask pardon for the mistake in my previous post. Though I think Tsukihime's either seinen or josei too, right?

[rooboy]

Originally Posted by physics223

Truth be told, I never liked ecchi much. It often irked me. I fall head over heels for well-made shoujo romances like Honey & Clover (I assume it's shoujo); like kujoe, I also love subtly-told complex stories with understatement. Tsukihime's the best of both worlds for me: it contains a Faulknerian complexity along with the Hemingway-esque understatement (patented by Hemingway himself). More men should watch shoujo. More women should watch more shoujo as well. XD

I find this amusing because neither of these shows is actually shoujo. Before you label something as shoujo, you should probably check and see if it actually is. As leongsh already stated, Honey and Clover is josei (it's the only josei anything I've ever seen animated). Tsukihime is about the closest definition of seinen I could imagine (and I've never even seen it), but I do know that the manga is serialized in Dengeki Daioh (the same fine seinen magazine that gave us Azumanga Daioh and Ichigo Mashimaro, among others) and it's based on a doujin visual novel type game that was aimed squarely at the seinen audience.

Not that it's just you, I find these kinds of mistakes quite common. I don't think it's possible for someone to be watching more shoujo than other genres (unless you're watching barely any anime) because (to the best of my knowledge) this has been the busiest shoujo season ever, and there's still only a bare handful of shows (Nana, Ouran High Host Club, and Gakuen Heaven are the only ones I know of, and I'm not even sure about Gakuen Heaven) - unless you're only watching one or two other shows, you're probably not watching more shoujo than anything else. Among the more popular shows I've seen incorrectly identified in the last year or so as shoujo are: Magical Lyrical Nanoha (both seasons, seinen), Kashimashi (seinen), Azumanga Daioh (seinen), School Rumble (!) (shonen), and Honey and Clover (josei, though at least this one is actually designed to be consumed by females). A lot of what people assume to be shoujo is, in fact, seinen.

Personally I like to watch shoujo for exactly this reason: so little shoujo is made into anime that any series that actually makes the leap is (almost by definition) based on pretty good source material. So little gets made that they just take the cream off the top of the genre. Similarly, despite the fact I can't stand the first couple of episodes of Honey and Clover, I persevered watching it - knowing that at some point I would like it because it had to be pretty good if it's the only josei show I've ever even heard of.

EDIT: Oop, Physics already caught his mistake before I hit the "Post" button. Yes, Tsukihime is seinen.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by DaFool

My conclusions: more alpha-males in shoujo, less alpha-females in shounen (they mostly appear in gunslinging animes with minimal romantic developments)

What do you mean by "less alpha-females?" I'm sure there are shounen protagonists which have aimed high for that girl who at first seemed unattainable in his eyes. She's either too pretty and smart, very assertive and too strong-willed, or some goddess from another world. Or are you referring to femme fatales who can kick ass in particular?

And yes, Emma! How could I have forgotten about that?

[DaFool]

Back when anime was just robots and tentacles, along came CLAMP. I had watched (and read if applicable) all their works up until recently. Thus most of my shoujo exposure is all thanks to them. However I feel as I have outgrown them, like physics223 I'm at the seinen / josei stage.

Now, ecchi is good because it adds lifespan to guys so they can die 5 years earlier than women instead of 10 years:

http://www.newshounds.us/2006/06/01/...n_studio_b.php

Granted, that study was a fluke and was probably never done, but hey, it rings some truth. Ecchi is a mild relaxing meditation. Especially with good animation and mild music, it puts a grin on my face. It relieves stress after pulling an all-nighter. The whole point is not to get too deep with character description because doing so is taxing. Thus the ecchi light subgenre under seinen is designed for this purpose, and is broadcast when the core audience is at home in their apartments after a full days' worth of being a corporate dog. After all, why bother with character descriptions if we don't even have time nor resources to get dates? Once we climbed the ladder and transitioned from being gamma males to beta males (hopefully with a small chance of becoming alpha male or top dog), then perhaps there'd be interest in character descriptions.

But character development is not lacking, in most of the good shows at least. After all this is the process that one goes through from becoming gamma (those high school wusses no one pays attention to) to beta-alpha (midlevel professionals who've had some experience working the pits). Sure the 'bad boys' romantic stereotypes have all the fun during that time, but they are usually surpassed later on. Just look at what women want in their teens, twenties, then thirties...and look at what makes husband-material for those in their thirties? You've guessed it, the likes of us. Former dorks who've made it.

kujoe: that's correct, well they're both alpha. But notice most shounen love interests are childhood-friend / neighbor / girl-next-door. Please point me to any ojou-sama pairings should you come across it. It could be changing now, though (I'm still riding the tsundere wave)

[kujoe]

So you were referring to social status then?

Ojou-sama pairings, huh? Now that's kind of difficult. With the tsundere theme becoming more popular each day, maybe we'll see something in the near future?

[physics223]

I think I'm in the minority among guys when I say I enjoy little ecchi. Even when I was still a budding anime addict (I'm helpless right now), I always delighted in watching well-written stories dovetailed with excellent animation. Though I really didn't get the differences between the different types of anime - thanks, roo and leongsh - I seem to understand a little more now.

[npal]

Second that, my ecchi enjoyment ranges from low to "why am I watching this crap"?