Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[willyvereb]

@frenze12: Before the retcon...and if the type is anti-world it means the targets can be something other
For example what if the target is equals the amount of paralell worlds it can destroy at once?
Ok, ok...I am joking...but seriously has it really been stated what counts as target and what isn't?
Excalibur killed more than 1000 shadows in Hollow Ataraxia and cleared half of the town...and judging from calculations it has the damage(from the later submitted stat calculators) of 800-1000 opposed to Gil's 5000+...And it was before the retcon.
In Fate Gilgamesh did use full powered Ea against Saber's Avalon, but after the retcons it was deemed false as Shirou summoning Rho Aias in UBW.

Gilgamesh's Ea at full power now the very least can demolish countries if not a whole planet even if anti-world is a bit of overstatement for it.

Gilgamesh is damn overpowered and that's the source of his arrogance. Actually he also possesses insane luck also which was ingored always in the plot as Nasu handled that attribute quite freely(except that certain first Saber vs Lancer scene). Gilgamesh actually can evaulate people's capabilites quite well and as bit Zaraki Kenpachi(from Bleach) he always uses the strenght required and nothing more. Gilgamesh is a damn spoiled and bored bastard. He wants the fights to be fullfying somehow...not by a thrilling battle but by fuelling his sadistic desires. The reason he loses is only because he's the bad guy so he eventually needs to be, opposed to the formerly mentioned Kenpachi who's somehow on the good side.

[LostHanyou]

When I brought up this whole "destroy epic characters with a dumb plot move!" conversation I was also speaking of Berserker in fate. And no one has responded to that.

[frenze12]

@willyvereb:

Sorry but you seem to rely a lot on retcons, got any source on that? (not al retcons are true). Even in fate/zero where he acknowledge Alexander as an opponent his EA only took out half of his army + through his bounded field. It is highly unlikely that when Gil says "I will defeat with all my strenght" that he wouldn't even use 50 % of his EA.
(that like saying that Ryougi could fly trough time) It stinks pretty bad.
With a max range of 1-99 (m) (not to mention max target) it is nearly impossible to destroy even a country. Ea orginaly was a sword with equal output or (slightly) higher than excaliber + further increased in power by GoB (power increased but max targets and range are still the same).

[orangejuicetang]

I know the ubw shield retcon is true at least. I think I've heard of the Fate one, but I'm not sure. I'm sure it was stated that Ea was at least 3 times greater than Excalibur though. Probably more.

A dumb plot move? If it's one his intrinsic abilities from his reality marble, and something he uses at various times throughout the different route's how does that make it a plot device? That's like saying, "I found Rin's jewel's a stupid plot device because they allowed her to match Caster in magic for a little while" or "I found Gilgamesh's GoB to be a stupid plot device because all it did was make him a formidable opponent." But seriously, if it's something that has an explanation and is used various times, it's not a plot device. It's not as if it was something that only happened once and never happened again. Simply labeling everything you don't like as a "dumb plot move" is just idiotic.

[MonkeyDude]

I'll drop my Gil/Shirou argument since I don't think both parties will reach a consensus on the matter. Still makes no sense to me to be honest, but I'll overlook it due to the ridiculousness that is the ending

As for Excalibur/Ea comparisons, Ea is the superior NP alone due to rank (EX compared to A++). There is also the primary weakness of Excalibur in that only the "tip" is the actual attack. Take the whole Rider/Saber fight in Fate. If Rider would have steered her Pegasus away from the attack instead of taking it on, well Saber would have lost plain and simple. Plot dictated that they meet in a head on attack even if Rider was still VERY maneuverable in that light-blob form. In terms of sheer power and usability, I'd rank Ea above Excalibur. If we are talking about +plot armor, Excalibur has a slight edge if paired with an Avalon.

Yes I am aware that Excalibur has an AOE behind the tip of the attack that expands in 'x' angle, but a Servant should have no trouble surviving the remains of the "ultimate killing technique."

I am more interested in what Ea actually is. Going by its description, it seems to be the oldest NP out there and is similar to Akasha in that it is the "root of all memory of life." It's a weapon that existed before life on the planet existed. Gaia is "the wish of the Earth to preserve life," so we can say that Ea existed before Gaia itself. Can anything forged by Gaia beat something that was already in existence before it? I wish Nasu wouldn't make things so vague

[frenze12]

Originally Posted by MonkeyDude

I am more interested in what Ea actually is. Going by its description, it seems to be the oldest NP out there and is similar to Akasha in that it is the "root of all memory of life." It's a weapon that existed before life on the planet existed. Gaia is "the wish of the Earth to preserve life," so we can say that Ea existed before Gaia itself. Can anything forged by Gaia beat something that was already in existence before it? I wish Nasu wouldn't make things so vague

I think you are taking the explanation a bit too literary. what you are describing is mechanism of the sword or more likely what the sword represents (Ado's weapon from Notes seems to use the same mechanism). The sword itself is not created by earthly components, no date is given when it is created. And that is basically all we know about EA.

[orangejuicetang]

Well first, Exclaiblast is really big.

Spoiler for :

And next, if I remember correctly, Rider launched into her attack first. It's only after she started charging Saber that Saber used Excalibur.

[grylsyjaeger]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

And next, if I remember correctly, Rider launched into her attack first. It's only after she started charging Saber that Saber used Excalibur.

Yep. Saber's identity isn't revealed to anyone until she uses that Holy Sword.

Except for Archer and Gilgamesh of course.

[Nevflinn]

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

When I brought up this whole "destroy epic characters with a dumb plot move!" conversation I was also speaking of Berserker in fate. And no one has responded to that.

Nasu is pretty infamous for those, but Fate's ones seem to be the most justifiable. With Hercules, we are going to let it slide simply for two reasons:

1) Shirou and Saber took seven of his lives in that swing, thus making it 'Seven in one blow'.

2) Look at the stupid bastard, he's got no arms left!

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

YES HE HAS!

Well what was he going to do, bleed on them?!?

[frenze12]

Well the moment when I heard Archer's final words to shirou in fate (" If you can't beat your opponent image something that can.") , a Chekhov's gun was just bound to happen.

[LostHanyou]

Originally Posted by Nevflinn

Nasu is pretty infamous for those, but Fate's ones seem to be the most justifiable. With Hercules, we are going to let it slide simply for two reasons:

1) Shirou and Saber took seven of his lives in that swing, thus making it 'Seven in one blow'.

2) Look at the stupid bastard, he's got no arms left!



Well what was he going to do, bleed on them?!?

Erm, considering his HEAD nearly blew off and it still regenerated, I'm willing to say his limbs would do the same.
The point is, something weaker than Excalibur shouldn't be able to take 7 lives, especially a 1 rank weakened projection. I pointed out earlier that Gilgamesh used the original caliburn against Shirou and it did nothing special, it acted only as a normal sword even when the slash was larger than what was dealt to Berserker. Note that this was the original, which should be stronger.
It made no sense for Berserker to die and seemed only to show how "awesome" projection is.

[Nevflinn]

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

Erm, considering his HEAD nearly blew off and it still regenerated, I'm willing to say his limbs would do the same.
The point is, something weaker than Excalibur shouldn't be able to take 7 lives, especially a 1 rank weakened projection. I pointed out earlier that Gilgamesh used the original caliburn against Shirou and it did nothing special, it acted only as a normal sword even when the slash was larger than what was dealt to Berserker. Note that this was the original, which should be stronger.
It made no sense for Berserker to die and seemed only to show how "awesome" projection is.

D-did you misinterpret a Monty Python quote?? :O

Still, since we're being serious, note that Gram and Caliburn are two different stories from two different myths, and just have a similar surrounding. Just because it is the original does not mean it's better - the sword in the stone is a much more famous myth, after all. In addition, Shirou had the scabbard inside of him, and it's a well-established fact that Avalon is broken.

[willyvereb]

No. Actually Gram/Merodach has an excalibur-like blast too. Gilgamesh used it in the VN. The details are messy, but after a bit of analysation it's certain. Also it's been stated somewhere that Calibum is the power-effective though less powerful version of Excalibur. It means instead of sending out a wasteful weave of blast it forms a cutting edge which can cut through almost anything. It has some kind of special ability for sure as in the VN and even in the anime after it hit a huge flash of light engulfed the area(also we heard Excaliblast's classical sound in the VN with it).
In short it wasn't a simple strike that killed Berserker.

[LostHanyou]

Excalibur = A++
Caliburn = Somewhere between A - A+, minus a rank due to projection. Since B wouldn't hurt Berserker, we can say B+.
Caladbolg = A due to -1 rank projection and +1 rank broken phantasm.

So you're saying that it makes sense for a B+ noble phantasm to kill Berserker SEVEN times, when Caladbolg could only hurt him?
I don't recall in the VN, but in the anime they clearly stab Berserker through the heart without some blast. Everything about it is just so ridiculous; Saber survives enuma elish but Berserker not only cannot survive something weaker than Excalibur, but dies more than once?

Also I totally missed that monty python joke -_-

[orangejuicetang]

well, first things first.

Spoiler for caliburn:

They shoot off the caliburn blast from inside Beserker. Next, we don't know how much damage Caladbolg could do to Beserker because Beserker diverted/blocked most of the force of the blast.

[Khu]

I laugh at how Saber knows how to pleasure a guy...even though she's King Arthur. XD

Maybe he got some before~

[LostHanyou]

Caliburn broke through Berserker's weapon that blocked caladbolg.

Wait what?

Even if caladbolg didn't hit him directly, the blast did. I'm sure the blast would have seriously injured or even killed Saber if it weren't for Shirou getting her away last minute, if that's any measurement of the power of that blast.
And again, we're not talking about one life. If caliburn took one and caladbolg couldn't, fine, I could accept that. This is seven lives a higher ranked noble phantasm couldn't take.
Or, how about when Berserker took 22 noble phantasms in UBW? All of them probably over B rank to damage him, it took a life and a half of his. Sure, the divine mystery behind them might not have been activated, but this is still 22 times the amount.
You can't possibly say that a A rank noble phantasm, even if slightly blocked, couldn't take a single life when a B+ ranked caliburn takes 7. You can't possibly say 22 B+ and above noble phantasms can only take 1 1/2 lives, when a single B+ caliburn can take 7.

[orangejuicetang]

First, I don't think B+ rank means what you think it means. A B+ rank Noble Phantasm doesn't necessarily do more damage normally than a B rank Noble Phantasm. Conversely, there are times when a B+ rank Noble Phantasm will deal more damage than an A rank Noble Phantasm. B+ doesn't mean this NP deals damage somewhere between the B class and A class, but rather, it normally deals B damage but it can potentially double it's power in certain circumstances, and B++ means it can quadruple it's power in certain circumstances. Next, about the Caladlbolg thing. Beserker's Noble Phantasm checks against the rank of all attacks against it. Caladbolg was a high enough rank and would have killed him a few times. Caladbolg's explosion on the other hand, might not necessarily be A ranked and thus it wouldn't harm Beserker at all. Also, your forgetting something. They fired Caliburn's blast while the blade was still inside Beserker. Godhand is basically something that covers his skin, and probably doesn't cover his internal organs. So he's taking all of Caliburn's damage internally, without Godhand nullifying any of it. Because remember, that not only does Godhand cause him to ignore any attack B or below, it also turns his skin as hard as iron, meaning he'd probably get some damage reduction even if hit with an attack with a rank high enough to damage him.

[Seitsuki]

I reckon Battle Moon Wars is the best example. God-hand: nullifies damage under a certain point (>5000), any damage higher than that is decreased (6000 -> 1000 etc). Caliburn however ala Fury nullifies the shield and crits for all its 9000 glory. Or more as the case is.

[MonkeyDude]

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

Well first, Exclaiblast is really big.

Spoiler for :

And next, if I remember correctly, Rider launched into her attack first. It's only after she started charging Saber that Saber used Excalibur.

I'll just quote the entry in the Type-Moon wiki:

To a third party viewer, it looks like a huge band of light, though in practice, only the tip is what can hit, and the light is a result of the "dislocation" of everything that this "ultimate killing technique" goes through. The tip of the attack also holds heat, making it a wave of light that can mow through the surface of the Earth. The concentric area of impact is broad enough to incinerate an entire military cohort, as it ranks as an anti-fortress Noble Phantasm.

Yes Rider launched into her attack first, but she just had to ram that blob of light head on rather than dodging it? I mean I can find this reasonable if she were on the ground, but she was flying through air at a rather fast pace. That head on attack had to happen for plot purposes to demonstrate the power of Excalibur else it wouldn't make sense in an actual fight. Saber herself should be fully aware how her noble phantasm works and do you honestly believe her "tiny" attack could connect to an opponent buzzing around in the air?

As for the current discussion...

The simple formula to ascertain the strength of something is by their age. So the older they are, the stronger the weapon becomes. In practice, this means that anything in Gil's vault should be more powerful than the same weapons the Servants wield; this is only on an assumption that the "age" of the weapon reverts to zero when it became a part of the heroic spirit. Though given that the Servants have far more experience wielding said weapons, Gil is at a disadvantage if they were to fight with the same weapons.

IIRC, God Hand deflects any attack below B rank; that means any attack B and above can damage Berserker. The Caliburn Shirou traced must have been at least rank A to even dent Berserker. I doubt it was Shirou who dealt the killing blow to Berserker given that Saber herself was also holding the sword. So it's basically Shirou tracing the weapon and Saber using it to deal the finishing strike. With Saber at the helm, Berserker's death is a guarantee...though seven in one blow?

They may have unleashed the true attack within Berserker, but having it take seven lives is rather ludicrous. How God Hand works is rather odd in that the regenerating effect isn't instantaneous, at least when the wounds are rather large; if we go by the attack Rin dealt to Berserker. The wound regenerates itself as if time was being reversed to bring back Berserker back to his original state, but not once did it instantaneously brought him back to normal. Let's say Caliburn did 7000 points of damage in one attack and God Hand can only nullify damage 999 points and below. After Caliburn exceeds the damage God Hand can handle, Berserker should only lose one life until another attack is launched that does another 1000+ points of damage. Though what happened is that the damage stacked and every 1000 points of damage Caliburn did IN ONE ATTACK took 1 life from Berserker, adding to a grand total of 7.

Nasu seems to enjoy using RPG elements in FSN and that doesn't make sense RPG wise. At least the RPG's I've played had my character with 50hp dying only once when he takes 150hp worth of damage and my auto-revive items kicks in just fine. Though for plot purposes demonstrating the awesome tracing ability of Shirou? Well of course it makes sense!

Isn't there a trope for this phenomenon? The whole demonstrating an awesome new power for the first time in its full overblown glory?