Macross Delta - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Thess

Agreed with you. I started with no expectation of Freyja and she surprised me in a good way. She's become one of my favorite Macross heroines, right there with Misa and Sheryl in only 8 episodes.

Freyja has been very well-wrote and well-developed so far. She has good chemistry with the rest of the cast, and she compliments them well.

As someone who's watched a lot of mahou shoujo and idol anime, it's very refreshing to see a girl like Freyja be the most popular Macross Delta girl so far (at least here on Anime Suki). With both mahou shoujo and idol anime, the most popular girl tends to be edgelords or "tortured soul" badasses or conventionally sexy divas. It's very nice to see a very hopeful and kinda whimsical and fun-loving girl like Freyja be the most popular idol/magical girl for a change.

Originally Posted by Arya

What is detracting points to me is the overall easiness through things happen for Hayate and Freyja, everything is going accordingly with any real struggle.

I strongly disagree with this.

Hayate has taken a lot of literal knocks in this show, especially in this episode. He's been punched and physically assaulted multiple times. He also was considerably humbled in his training by both Mirage and Messer. I don't know how anybody could consider his road an easy one, so far. He's fortunate to be surrounded by generally good and responsible people, but aside from that, the plot hasn't been easy on him at all.

Freyja failed her initial audition, and needed a special surprise audition in order to get into Walkure. Mikumo has been just as hard on Freyja as Mirage/Messer have been on Hayate. Freyja's very first concert was crashed by her own people basically declaring war on the peoples of Freyja's new friends. Short of getting into really gritty horror, this was probably the very worst thing that could happen to Freyja during her very first concert. What should have been a total dream for Freyja turns into a nightmare! And now Freyja is faced with being considered a traitorous outcast to her people, or at least to her people's beloved military elite. Finally, it's not like Freyja has been silky smooth and professional-seeming right away. She stumbled some during her first concert as a Walkure member, and that was even before the Aerial Knights crashed it.

How is any of this easy in the least? Short of turning this show into a much darker show, Delta has been as hard as it can be on Hayate and Freyja. Any harder and the show would not be able to maintain its generally bright and fun-loving tone. And honestly, I'm glad the show has the tone it does. There's plenty of gritty mecha shows out there if that's what you want. I'm glad that Delta is offering something flashy and fun, with just the right amount of struggle to ensure the show's story is also engaging and able to be taken seriously.

[Dark Wing]

Well said Triple_R...

Both Hayate and Freyja have grown alot in short amount of time it's hard not to be impressed with their development so far.

Freyja really did come into her own by the end she now knows for certain what she is singing for and it'sthe same as Hayate to put an end to this war. Noble and Heroic is the only way I can describe it.

Mirage however...needs some work. Hell they shouldn't really have been doing something with her character before Messer anyway being part of the main love triangle and all.

[Arya]

I don't intend transform this into a big fuss. It's just my opinion. But Hayate did almost whatever he wanted and despite it the show acknowledged him powering him up a couple of times. I didn't sense any real change or growth to justify such a power up.

About Frejya I don't feel she has any awareness of what's going on to justify her power up either. I mean, in this episode she ran against a giant enemy leaving her group (that is supposed to sing together). That's not what I call a move of someone who understands what's going on. I don't feel she has been affected by what was going on to her so far either. So I don't feel any real growth. She as hayate does what she wants and the show acknowledge her. It's that that is confusing for me.
Usually it should be the other way around. The character understands his limits or where he/she was wrong, corrects himself and so the growth happens. Here instead I feel like it's more the other way around.

But as I said, it's just me. And I'm not well-versed with the mahou shoujo / idol anime approach and sadly I'm having an hard time to get accustomed to it.

[ippus]

Hmmm so after watching-

Really bummed by Mirage being virtually useless all through this episode. To be fair she was in a pretty difficult situation, and honestly she managed to take quite a beating herself which...is unusual for a girl in anime and I do appreciate that to some degree...

But I really kind of wish she'd grow a bit of a prideful side and stop being so okay with being sidelined. Two eps ago she had legitimate problems yet none of it seems to be expressed due to Delta's perpetual need to make her on par with a kindergarten teacher...

I don't usually feel this way about Freyja's songs, but this new one sounds extremely amateur compared to Bokura no Senjou. As much as I like Mikumo's version of that song, Freyja still sent me feels on that episode while I just feel gimped this time since the Mikumo tease on the previous episode for THIS song sounded SO MUCH BETTER I might be in a minority with this (maybe?) but it really bugged me that the song felt so subpar...especially given how much they're shoving powerups down my throat.

I also get that Freyja is the main character, and the show needs her and Hayate to constantly power up to maintain that status- but to some degree I don't really get the capabilities of the Walkure at this point other than an opening act / distraction. It's clear with the Windermeres that they're on constant buffs when the prince is singing...but I can't say much for what the Walkures are doing? Before it seemed to heal VAR but now that doesn't feel like what's going on anymore? Their song doesn't seem to even cause powerups so...

I mean I guess they're staving off the virus from their flyers...? But on previous occasion that seems to fail as well..............

I guess I feel like given how the Walkure's were doing their thing even before Freyja was around, I was expecting them to actually...DO a bit more? The fact that Mikumo basically gave Freyja homework and nobody in the Walkure's motivations were touched upon (asides from Mikumo's apparent fearlessness from day 1) before she came to her grand conclusion really seems to cheapen the cast for what I feel like is just another round of the same old Freyja + Hayate powerup we've seen before. There's no real actual growth other than Freya and Hayate always sorta just happening, and Freyja's manufactured angst being reverted back to original conviction of singing to everyone...

Like honestly since when did Freyja NOT sing towards a difficult situation? Did Freyja ever NOT want her songs to be heard? Did Freyja not ever want to help people? Instead of having an actual serious discussion with the Knights, they opted for making her quirky by freaking out about apples... I get that her family are apple farmers but given her original reason for wavering this all just feels really really cheap. If anything the rest of the knights were SURPRISINGLY NICE ABOUT THIS DIMWIT TRAITOR WHO WAS OVER SIMPLIFYING THEIR CONVICTIONS.


AHHHGGGG--
Sorry...I don't really dislike any characters in this show (surprisingly) but that only bothers me more that they're being treated this way.


.....I Love Bogue. I dunno, he's like a bratty Renji (from Bleach) to me, I think it's cute. I'm actually kind of hoping he does end up liking Freyja just to see him Tsun all over the galaxy.

Keith and Messer have crazy chemistry. I also agree that I like the AradxKanamexMesser(xKeith) triangle (family sandwich) dynamic too. I actually really want more of them.

[Boukenxha]

Don't think I'll be able to put it into words myself, but I think I kinda understand what Arya and Ippus are both getting at. The show is not bad, it entertains me but the feeling is the writing is lacking something which I can't point out exactly, maybe can I say the show hasn't found its niche yet? I don't know...

Also I agree that Freyja's singing this episode was a little disappointing, her voice came out thin and shaky in the lower registers. That was not entirely her fault, the music supervision chose the song, could have at least raised the key for her. Mikumo (Junna) as she demonstrated in the previous episode definitely has a better suited voice to carry the song. The new group song was awesome though, loved it!

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Going back to the effects of the ruins: User intent/emotion has been portrayed as a major influence on what some Protoculture artifacts do, so my guess would be that the ruins perked up when they heard Walkure singing, but these weren't war ruins, so they interpreted Walkure's intentions as somewhat hostile (their core intention is to confuse/fight the Knights).

The Song of Wind is being used for evil, so that really confused the ruins on top of the previous singing.

Freyja is being entirely Pure Pure Heart, so that clears everything up and activates the ruins.

[Tak]

I have to agree. None of the characters in Delta has solicited the same strong reaction I had for Frontier in terms of development. I like Frejya very much, but she is neither hopes & dreams nor despair & nightmares. Well, I guess I do feel strongly for Bogue, but its the feeling of wanting to tie the bastard to a chair, strangling and toss him into the pacific. So yeah, not for the right reasons.

OTOH, I enjoy Delta immensely for a different reason, the world and lore. Frontier was pretty character-deiven, whereas Delta is world-driven. When characters are presented before a sea of worlds, races & culture, yeah, they'd appear insignificant.

- Tak

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Count me in as one of the people who’s not really excited or impressed with Delta so far. It’s funny that Delta’s episode premier is still the most exciting moment for me but then my excitement level gradually went downhill from there. I can’t see & feel what other people claim to be as “character development” in this episode. Sure, Hayate receive some beatings from his enemy and he did a mercy-shot to the said enemy (Kira-style) and Freyja decided to help the kitty-father no matter what and both of them received some power boost, but there’s nothing really stand out about that as those are just variation of something we’ve seen before in this series itself (let alone other mecha anime). I just don’t feel any excitement for all the things that’s happening in this episode.

The show is not bad, but it’s still hovering in the “okay” territory for me. To be honest, until this points, I don’t really like the songs save for the ED (and maybe that Borderline song?). I mean, I don't hate them and still have no problem listening to them, but I don't feel the urge to listen to it again. To me, most of them just sound like standard J-pop songs you can find everywhere in Japan nowadays. I hope they’re still saving the best songs for later. And...so far, nothing from Delta really captivate me. Not the battles and planes (like in Plus, Zero & Frontier), not the songs (like in Macross 7 & Frontier), not the serious tone (like in Zero & Plus), not the balls-to-the-walls wackiness (like in 7), not the characters (like in SDF, 7, Plus), and certainly not the story-originality (like in SDF). The show just lacks some “oomph” in every aspect for me, it’s like Jack of all trades, master of none.

Some people might argue that the “Mahou Idols” element make the series stands out, but I don’t think so because other series have done it better imo. What about Bishounen enemies? Well, that's pretty much a mahou shoujo trope, so...no. Still looking forward for this show to improve itself. At least I want one aspect to pack a serious punch and wow me.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Tak

I have to agree. None of the characters in Delta has solicited the same strong reaction I had for Frontier in terms of development. [skip]

- Tak

For there to be strong reaction regarding development it would require development to happen first...and Delta despite its brisk pace plot wise is stationary when it comes to the cast. That's mostly because Hayate and Freyja are hugging all the screentime without really getting character development from it and not letting the other characters do anything on screen.

Actually, after this episode I kinds feel like they wasted 4 episodes on Freyja trying to understand why she is singing.

[magnuskn]

Well, good to know that I am not the only one noting these things.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by azarhal

Actually, after this episode I kind feel like they wasted 4 episodes on Freyja trying to understand why she is singing.

Actually she knows why she is singing but she is not very confident because Mikumo is testing her all the time. She wants to be a Walküre. Correct question is... for whom is she singing?

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Tak

I have to agree. None of the characters in Delta has solicited the same strong reaction I had for Frontier in terms of development.
- Tak

For me it's not only the characters, but the whole show. I'm not really sure why or what it is, but it feels like something is missing.

[Annorax]

Ok, amateur here, so I might aswell be spouting r-tareded nonsense.

When Borgue attack Freyja, failed and Hayate starts to attack, what he did was quickly retreated away when he could(maybe) continue pressing down 31 and keep shooting. Why? Well, delta wing planes like 262 arent very good at maneuver and arent optimal subsonic flight compare to the forward swept wing of 31, getting close and personal in subsonic speed will put 262 in a disadvantageous position.

[Darthtabby]

IIRC, the problem with delta wings in air combat is actually that they bleed a lot of energy during sustained maneuvers. On the other hand they can be quite good at "instantaneous" maneuvers.

Now older delta wing interceptors did tend to have poor low speed handling which could be an issue during take off and landing. That's actually the reason why the historic real life Draken used an unusual "double delta" configuration rather than a more conventional delta wing with a consistent wing sweep. Swedish doctrine deemed conventional air bases vulnerable to attack and required fighters to be able to take off and land from eight hundred meter stretches of highway.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

The stupendous thrust-to-weight ratios in later-model VFs make things like conventional aerodynamics slightly less relevant, though you could argue that every little bit of design advantage still helps when you're leveraging the bleeding edge of performance.

The series did have a nod to conventional air combat maneuvering when Messer reminded Chuck about losing energy when going into the scissors.

Heh, Messer, scissors. That's all he and Keith do when they fight. They scissor more than a yuri doujin.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Well said Triple_R...

Thank you.

Mirage however...needs some work. Hell they shouldn't really have been doing something with her character before Messer anyway being part of the main love triangle and all.

Mirage is definitely the character that needs the most focus and/or development right now. Whatever critics might say about Hayate and Freyja, at least they have very set personalities and roles.

Hayate - The dancing wind-riding jet/mecha pilot that is raw in battle but very skillful and creative at piloting in general. Wears his emotions on his sleeve, and has a definite teenage spirit. However, he's slowly maturing and gradually gaining greater appreciation of the world around him, and the challenges it presents. Has become very good friends with Freyja and Mirage, and has a good working relationship with most people in Delta.

Freyja - The highly hopeful lover of songs that also has a caring considerate heart. A heroic colorful songstress that is awkward and hesitant at times, but who often comes through when the chips are down. Was singing at first mainly since she simply found Walkure cool and wanted to be like them, but has now developed a desire to use her music to end war. Dislikes war, and wants to end it through music - Is this not the very core of Macross? If this is somehow not good enough than what does that say about the entire franchise?

Mirage - Good-natured and highly responsible. Good pilot when it comes to the basics, but needs work being less predictable and more creative. Seems to be a decent soldier, but nothing special. Main motivation is... living up to her family name? There's some decent pieces here, but Mirage needs much more work than Hayate or Freyja do.

Originally Posted by Arya

But Hayate did almost whatever he wanted and despite it the show acknowledged him powering him up a couple of times.

Maybe the show doesn't see anything inherently wrong with people doing "almost whatever they want"? In fact, maybe one theme of the show is that you should follow your heart and be true to yourself, and this is precisely what will cause your life to resonate like good music and power you up! That theme could also apply to Freyja, of course.

Macross Delta's theme doesn't necessarily need to be one of self-sacrificing duty.

About Frejya I don't feel she has any awareness of what's going on to justify her power up either.

Please read what I wrote about Freyja above. She's made a big step here, in my view. She's gone from singing mainly for fun and out of admiration for Walkure, to singing with higher purposes in mind - the purposes of healing the afflicted, ending war, and bringing smiles to the people who listen to her.

I mean, in this episode she ran against a giant enemy leaving her group (that is supposed to sing together). That's not what I call a move of someone who understands what's going on.

You know, Arya, there is such a thing as being overly strict about things like protocol. At the end of the day, results matter, and Freyja is getting good results so far.

Anyway, if the show just isn't clicking for you or somebody else, so be it. Everybody has their own tastes and sensibilities, and I respect that. That being said, we shouldn't lose sight of what the show is trying to accomplish, and what directions it has chosen to go in. Sometimes, those aims and directions are simply different that what a particular viewer would like.

Originally Posted by ippus

Like honestly since when did Freyja NOT sing towards a difficult situation? Did Freyja ever NOT want her songs to be heard? Did Freyja not ever want to help people? Instead of having an actual serious discussion with the Knights, they opted for making her quirky by freaking out about apples... I get that her family are apple farmers but given her original reason for wavering this all just feels really really cheap. If anything the rest of the knights were SURPRISINGLY NICE ABOUT THIS DIMWIT TRAITOR WHO WAS OVER SIMPLIFYING THEIR CONVICTIONS.

The apple thing might seem silly at a superficial level, but these things can mean a lot depending on context.

Speaking personally, I've lived my entire life on an island province named Newfoundland, which is part of Canada. The fishery is a huge part of the cultural heritage of my province. Our songs, our stories, our books, loads of it goes back to the major role that fishing has played in the history of our province. It very much shapes our understanding of ourselves. Even still, to some extent, over 20 years after the Newfoundland cod fishery collapsed.

I get the impression that apple farming is just as big to the Windermere people as cod fishing was to Newfoundland. That sort of thing really does shape a people, and can create a deeper appreciation for certain things.

To you, a cod fish might just be another food item. To me, it runs deeper, as I associate it with my home and its cultural heritage. To both of us, an apple might be just another food item. But to Freyja...

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Some people might argue that the “Mahou Idols” element make the series stands out, but I don’t think so because other series have done it better imo.

What other series have done Mahou Idols better, in your opinion? AKB0048? Symphogear?

I've watched some of AKB0048, and while I see why some like it a lot, I can honestly say I prefer Delta. Symphogear is an excellent show, but the idol side of things is just barely there, really. When it comes to actual music idols that can do seemingly magical things, I've never seen any anime characters as fun and entertaining as Walkure is.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Mirage - Good-natured and highly responsible. Good pilot when it comes to the basics, but needs work being less predictable and more creative. Seems to be a decent soldier, but nothing special. Main motivation is...

Protect people's smile, she mentioned that when she chatted with Hayate about his first kill and even earlier when she said she was a soldier and flew to protect.

[Kazu-kun]

If Mahou Idols is a thing, I'd say AKB0048 has the edge over Delta. Delta's idols are okay but besides Freyja (and Mikumo to a lesser extent) they don't get much focus, unfortunately.

[Darthtabby]

Interestingly Symphogear, AKB0048, and Delta all come from the same studio. In fact both AKB0048 and Delta are Kawamori productions.

Something to note here: Delta has gotten some "typical" developments out of the at breakneck speed. Freyja and Hayate became part of their respective units in two and three episodes respectively. I've been trying to avoid doing too much more comparison between Delta and Frontier in this thread, but since Hayate and Freyja have such strong resemblances to Alto and Ranka, I think they're a good point for comparison. Alto was made to give serious consideration to the path he was choosing before he joined SMS, and took an extra episode to get to the "test" stage. He also had a more serious attitude about the job. Ranka isn't quite as direct a comparison since she was aiming to be a solo act rather than part of a unit, but she initially failed and struggled for a fair bit of the series before getting her big break.

Personally, I think its just as well that Delta is taking a different approach, but this stuff may be part of the reason people feel that Hayate and Freyja have had it easy compared to their Frontier counterparts.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by azarhal

Protect people's smile, she mentioned that when she chatted with Hayate about his first kill and even earlier when she said she was a soldier and flew to protect.

So Freyja makes them smile, and then Mirage protects that smile. Nice combo!

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

If Mahou Idols is a thing, I'd say AKB0048 has the edge over Delta. Delta's idols are okay but besides Freyja (and Mikumo to a lesser extent) they don't get much focus, unfortunately.

To explain my take on Delta vs. AKB0048 - I much prefer Delta's character design philosophy. In other words, Walkure literally looks cooler and more appealing to me than the AKB0048 idols do. I prefer Delta's art-style and idol costumes.

Also, I like the focus on precisely five magical idols instead of a focus on a large group of somewhat random people trying to become idols.