(L+CR) Youjo Senki (Saga of Tanya the Evil)

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by James Rye

From what I understood the whole war begun with the Entente Alliance electing a new Leader who got to power by appealing to the nationalism of his people of a greater Entente Alliance over the issue of the disputed territories in the north of the Empire. The Empire hold claim over them though nobody else recognized it and from that episode where Tanya was a spotter and we first saw the Sioux guy we know that the Entente army was just supposed to do a "political exercise of power demonstration" but they accidentally crossed the border with the Empire army overreacting and shelling the hell out of them creating a humiliating loss for the Entente Alliance who couldn't back down anymore.

It's a shame the details were glossed over in the anime (and also the manga, though to a much lesser extent)

The Entente Alliance didn't "cross the border" accidentally. They (foolishly) saw it as entering their own territory, even though it was considered otherwise by international treaty. The Empire were so completely justified in attacking them that they even invited foreign journalists to observe. Even though they triggered it intentionally, the Entente Alliance was completely unprepared for a counter-attack and got trampled.

What happened next was a mistake by the Empire though: they decided to use the opportunity to launch a full scale invasion immediately. Later on, the ones who proposed that were removed - we never even see them in the anime or manga. The reason the Republic attacked was because that's what their defence strategy called for, before the Entente Alliance even began their brinkmanship. Basically, they couldn't allow the Empire to become any stronger and so had to use the opportunity to attack.

From the point of view of modern Europe, all these unilateral actions could be considered "wrong" but for the time it was quite normal. I found the overall description of the situation and the "law of unintended consequences" to be very interesting.

[~Yami~]

if somehow Tanya could make her way to meet Lelouch, they'll be the best pair ever

honestly, I feel that the empire is lucky that Tanya didn't have any desire to rule... she just loyal and strict to her job as soldier
if she is used like this, I won't be surprised if she rebels in the future...
She noticed the fault on command but let the superiors to sacrifice her

I thought we have done with Sioux family but his daughter joined now...
It is almost clear that Empire will collapse in the future since they don't have enough resource to deal with the rest of the world
Let's just see what will happen to Tanya if they lost... since she is loved by "god", it would be interesting

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The Empire's sin: being too badass. The others' sin: being to cowardly. Yeah, that's real balanced there.

I never got that. You're projecting. The show spent a lot of time showing the 'enemy' to be as human and moved by understandable motivations as the soldiers on the Empire's side. They're not 'cowards', they're justifiably afraid. When Tanya makes her speech in episode 12 she's not complaining about the other countries: she's saying that the upper echelon is stupid, because just because they like a pragmatic, rational approach to war, they assume everyone else will do the same, especially underestimating how being pragmatic and rational tends to go to shit when you're the one who lost and are thus afraid and angry. It's normal of people to react that way. It's stupid of the commanders to overlook that.

And yeah, the Empire is militarily more powerful. That doesn't equate to being good or virtuous. But even in our real world, Germany got cocky twice because it had a lot of power to lay down: coal, steel and industry. They felt like they could take over the world. They overestimated themselves, and their arrogance was their downfall, but one-on-one they would have won a lot of battles. That others will gang up on you if you act like a bully, again, is common sense. It doesn't mark them as cowardly and the show doesn't judge them to be so. If anything, it shows the cracks in the Empire's facade of rationality that they keep underestimating their enemy: they always plan 'rationally'... for the most convenient case, never accounting for how the others will actually react to their behaviour.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But the letter of the Geneva Convention (not applicable in YS, I know) is quite clear. If you're going to take up arms against an army, you'd better do it in uniform. Or, if uniforms aren't available, find some way to distinguish you from civilians.

I assume YS has something very similar. But even so, do you think as civilians in an occupied town that fear for their and their loved ones' lives people who can get their hands on some weapons will always care? Or know? Soldiers study war laws, civilians don't, on average. I wouldn't really feel like they're 'cowards' for doing so, and the show didn't try to push that view (after all, the act of the Empire was not shown in a positive light). But at the same time, from the point of view of the Empire's soldiers, to invade rather than shell the city would have meant risking their own lives for the sake of those of civilians some of whom would have been ready to stab them in the back (from their own point of view for excellent reasons). Who would be happy to risk their lives for that? The temptation to say "fuck it" and take the safest route is strong. A superior might actually feel the DUTY to do so, because he'll feel that first and foremost he owes it to his soldiers to guarantee the best conditions and the least useless risk for them. It's complicated, I don't see any obvious answers frankly. Everyone wants to live, everyone feels a sense of duty towards different people and entities, and when you're in war, that self-interest clashes with that of others. There's really no way to decide easily who's right and wrong in such muddied situations.

[Panzercracker]

Originally Posted by eiyuuou

What are you talking? If someone attacks you, will you dogeza and say "yes, my lord and master?"
If you decided to defend yourself, a second bully jumps in to help the first and when you can still defend, the third ,the fourth, the fifth and so on
just because you didn't get destroyed by the first or with the first.

A truce? well, too late as you didn't go down by or with the second
now, they fear you being too powerful so everyone vilify you and wants you c.r.u.s.h.e.d.

And what are you talking about? If you destroy the first and second then claim their houses and property at your houses. There will not only the fifth guy but a coalition of hundreds people consider you as a threat, must be destroyed and attack you as same time, do you think you have enough power and resource to against a coalition of hundreds people?

If you stop after beat out the first or second and let them go with a truce, there will be people will admit your power and form allied or a sphere with you, but if you try to claim the loser's properties, people will see you as a robber, a danger and you will be alone on your own.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Panzercracker

And what are you talking about? If you destroy the first and second then claim their houses and property at your houses. There will not only the fifth guy but a coalition of hundreds people consider you as a threat, must be destroyed and attack you as same time, do you think you have enough power and resource to against a coalition of hundreds people?

If you stop after beat out the first or second and let them go with a truce, there will be people will admit your power and form allied or a sphere with you, but if you try to claim the loser's properties, people will see you as a robber, a danger and you will be alone on your own.

See, the thing is, before WW1 it was normal to keep the territory you win in a war. The idea of giving back your gains to prevent escalation, basically didn't exist. War used to be localised and short. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

[Panzercracker]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

See, the thing is, before WW1 it was normal to keep the territory you win in a war. The idea of giving back your gains to prevent escalation, basically didn't exist. War used to be localised and short. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

Yeah, and that is also the reason for many "empires" that rise and fall quickly, thus expand to neighbour countries is a bad idea with great chance that they will form a coalition to gang bang that empire and lead to oversea colonized era.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

Well, that's the point, right? Tanya has hindsight from her experience of XX century history, and feels frustrated at how fucking moronic everyone else is being, from her point of view.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

It's a shame the details were glossed over in the anime (and also the manga, though to a much lesser extent)

The Entente Alliance didn't "cross the border" accidentally. They (foolishly) saw it as entering their own territory, even though it was considered otherwise by international treaty. The Empire were so completely justified in attacking them that they even invited foreign journalists to observe. Even though they triggered it intentionally, the Entente Alliance was completely unprepared for a counter-attack and got trampled.

What happened next was a mistake by the Empire though: they decided to use the opportunity to launch a full scale invasion immediately. Later on, the ones who proposed that were removed - we never even see them in the anime or manga. The reason the Republic attacked was because that's what their defence strategy called for, before the Entente Alliance even began their brinkmanship. Basically, they couldn't allow the Empire to become any stronger and so had to use the opportunity to attack.

From the point of view of modern Europe, all these unilateral actions could be considered "wrong" but for the time it was quite normal. I found the overall description of the situation and the "law of unintended consequences" to be very interesting.

Yeah, okay. That sounds more like WW1's "someone lit a match in the gunpowder storage room, where lots of countries put leaky kegs". But as you said, the anime didn't convey that.

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

I never got that. You're projecting. The show spent a lot of time showing the 'enemy' to be as human and moved by understandable motivations as the soldiers on the Empire's side. They're not 'cowards', they're justifiably afraid. When Tanya makes her speech in episode 12 she's not complaining about the other countries: she's saying that the upper echelon is stupid, because just because they like a pragmatic, rational approach to war, they assume everyone else will do the same, especially underestimating how being pragmatic and rational tends to go to shit when you're the one who lost and are thus afraid and angry. It's normal of people to react that way. It's stupid of the commanders to overlook that.

1. Again, you're mixing the reasons the war continues with the reasons the war started, which is what I was talking about.
2. Tanya went right ahead and said the other countries were motivated by fear. So maybe "cowardly" is an exaggeration, but it's less of a mouthful.

And yeah, the Empire is militarily more powerful. That doesn't equate to being good or virtuous.

No. But bottom line? The Empire didn't attack anyone that didn't attack them first. While the others did attack the Empire, either out of fear, or in some kind of opportunistic land grab.

But even in our real world, Germany got cocky twice because it had a lot of power to lay down: coal, steel and industry. They felt like they could take over the world. They overestimated themselves, and their arrogance was their downfall, but one-on-one they would have won a lot of battles. That others will gang up on you if you act like a bully, again, is common sense.

And that isn't what happened in YS. At least in the anime. I'm willing to accept that kari-no-sugata II's explanation makes things a bit more balanced. But in the anime, they omitted German faults.

It doesn't mark them as cowardly and the show doesn't judge them to be so. If anything, it shows the cracks in the Empire's facade of rationality that they keep underestimating their enemy: they always plan 'rationally'... for the most convenient case, never accounting for how the others will actually react to their behaviour.



I assume YS has something very similar. But even so, do you think as civilians in an occupied town that fear for their and their loved ones' lives people who can get their hands on some weapons will always care? Or know? Soldiers study war laws, civilians don't, on average.

And what's the excuse of the regular army guys who supported them?

I wouldn't really feel like they're 'cowards' for doing so, and the show didn't try to push that view (after all, the act of the Empire was not shown in a positive light). But at the same time, from the point of view of the Empire's soldiers, to invade rather than shell the city would have meant risking their own lives for the sake of those of civilians some of whom would have been ready to stab them in the back (from their own point of view for excellent reasons). Who would be happy to risk their lives for that? The temptation to say "fuck it" and take the safest route is strong. A superior might actually feel the DUTY to do so, because he'll feel that first and foremost he owes it to his soldiers to guarantee the best conditions and the least useless risk for them. It's complicated, I don't see any obvious answers frankly. Everyone wants to live, everyone feels a sense of duty towards different people and entities, and when you're in war, that self-interest clashes with that of others. There's really no way to decide easily who's right and wrong in such muddied situations.

Yeah, but in modern time, we, the good guys, will bomb civilian residential blocks because we're pretty sure there are terrorists in them. It's only the bad guys who play the insurgent game.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

See, the thing is, before WW1 it was normal to keep the territory you win in a war. The idea of giving back your gains to prevent escalation, basically didn't exist. War used to be localised and short. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

Eh. In the Franco Prussian war, the Prussians took Paris. They only kept Alsace and Lorraine. I don't suppose it was about escalation as much as it was about the costs of long term occupation, but still.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah, okay. That sounds more like WW1's "someone lit a match in the gunpowder storage room, where lots of countries put leaky kegs". But as you said, the anime didn't convey that.



1. Again, you're mixing the reasons the war continues with the reasons the war started, which is what I was talking about.
2. Tanya went right ahead and said the other countries were motivated by fear. So maybe "cowardly" is an exaggeration, but it's less of a mouthful.


No. But bottom line? The Empire didn't attack anyone that didn't attack them first. While the others did attack the Empire, either out of fear, or in some kind of opportunistic land grab.


And that isn't what happened in YS. At least in the anime. I'm willing to accept that kari-no-sugata II's explanation makes things a bit more balanced. But in the anime, they omitted German faults.


And what's the excuse of the regular army guys who supported them?


Yeah, but in modern time, we, the good guys, will bomb civilian residential blocks because we're pretty sure there are terrorists in them. It's only the bad guys who play the insurgent game.


Eh. In the Franco Prussian war, the Prussians took Paris. They only kept Alsace and Lorraine. I don't suppose it was about escalation as much as it was about the costs of long term occupation, but still.

I guess what I don't understand is... the show doesn't give a judgement of moral value. And I don't either. You are doing it. Saying you did something out of fear is very different from saying you're a coward - you are conflating the two things. If I have a cobra staring at me and hissing at me you bet I'm going to be fucking afraid, for good reason. And if I have a weapon and no chance to flee then I'll probably use it to kill it. Being a coward isn't just acting out of fear: is doing something evil or immoral out of fear. Sure, war isn't a nice thing, but the Empire doesn't seem to think that. They're very proud and basically got what they wanted: to provoke others into attacking them with their military power so that they didn't even need to dirty their hands looking like the first ones to move. Which, by the way, is also what Germany aspired to do in WW1 - except it failed, lost its patience and ended up attacking, which meant Italy wasn't bound to intervene in its defence any more and in the long term earned it yet another enemy.

Yeah, but in modern time, we, the good guys, will bomb civilian residential blocks because we're pretty sure there are terrorists in them. It's only the bad guys who play the insurgent game.

Except I never said I think that qualifies the US as "the good guys". Neither did the show. Again, you are. You're basically saying the show endorses a lot of stuff it really doesn't.

[The 48th Ronin]

So Tanya went the Erwin Rommel route? Interesting.

[Arc Unin]

Originally Posted by The 48th Ronin

So Tanya went the Erwin Rommel route? Interesting.

about Rommel in LN

Spoiler:

No, in the light novel, Rommel is the commander of Imperial Southern Continent Expeditionary Force. Tanya is his subordinate, and his name is Rohmer(ロメール) instead of Rommel(ロンメル).

[James Rye]

^That just makes me want to see a 2nd season of Youjo Senki even more. Rommel's was a pretty impressive commander and I guess the YS version of him will be close to him in at least the military genius aspect.

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

It's a shame the details were glossed over in the anime (and also the manga, though to a much lesser extent)

The Entente Alliance didn't "cross the border" accidentally. They (foolishly) saw it as entering their own territory, even though it was considered otherwise by international treaty. The Empire were so completely justified in attacking them that they even invited foreign journalists to observe. Even though they triggered it intentionally, the Entente Alliance was completely unprepared for a counter-attack and got trampled.

What happened next was a mistake by the Empire though: they decided to use the opportunity to launch a full scale invasion immediately. Later on, the ones who proposed that were removed - we never even see them in the anime or manga. The reason the Republic attacked was because that's what their defence strategy called for, before the Entente Alliance even began their brinkmanship. Basically, they couldn't allow the Empire to become any stronger and so had to use the opportunity to attack.

From the point of view of modern Europe, all these unilateral actions could be considered "wrong" but for the time it was quite normal. I found the overall description of the situation and the "law of unintended consequences" to be very interesting.

Wow, that's yeah, that's dumb of them. I would be pissed at the Entente Alliance too if I were the AK or the Republic. Same with the Empire if they had left it at that counterattack without the invasion there would be no war now. Too bad we never saw those guys propose said action and get sacked for it afterwards. Fools didn't thought this through what this meant for their other neighbors.

But it's not like we don't have such situations today, just think of the "green men" on Crimea or yesterday's US missle attack on a Syria military airport, both were unilateral and not in accordance with international law, but it's not like either side cared about that, they cared about the political/power gain they can get from such actions.

[Gan_HOPE326]

* mod snip *

But this is not the thread for that, so let's either stop it or move it elsewhere.

[Freeze_Flare]

Found this pic on twitter. Anyone knows what this is about?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C831kPsVoAAFs9f.jpg

Nonetheless, Aoi Yuuki in Tanya's uniform: HNNNNGGGGGGG

[Hata]

Originally Posted by Freeze_Flare

Found this pic on twitter. Anyone knows what this is about?

text accompany picture:
“Youjo Genki Devil of the Rhine” open recording, Empire 203 air maho battalion, new recruit qualification test, part 2 finished. thanks for coming.

(so it is a audio “propaganda” program, you send in your “resume” for the two parts live shows in order to see the live recording.)

[Benigmatica]

Episodes 11 and 12:
I'm late, but it seems that the Empire won't rest until all of its enemies are defeated... and Tanya is aware about it given that she came from the real world.

It was a nice series, but I wish Studio NUT and Kadokawa would make another season!

[eiyuuou]

Originally Posted by Panzercracker

And what are you talking about? If you destroy the first and second then claim their houses and property at your houses. There will not only the fifth guy but a coalition of hundreds people consider you as a threat, must be destroyed and attack you as same time, do you think you have enough power and resource to against a coalition of hundreds people?

If you stop after beat out the first or second and let them go with a truce, there will be people will admit your power and form allied or a sphere with you, but if you try to claim the loser's properties, people will see you as a robber, a danger and you will be alone on your own.

What are you talking about? While you fought the first, the second attacked you. You were fighting on two fronts without a winner.
You have never even beaten the first or the second when the third jumped on you.
The moment you beat the third, while the first and second are still around, everyone wants you dead.
People don't fight only on logic alone, bro. Empire made that mistake, so do you.

[James Rye]

Originally Posted by Hata

text accompany picture:
“Youjo Genki Devil of the Rhine” open recording, Empire 203 air maho battalion, new recruit qualification test, part 2 finished. thanks for coming.

(so it is a audio “propaganda” program, you send in your “resume” for the two parts live shows in order to see the live recording.)

Aww, so no 2nd season? Dang, I hoped it was popular enough and boosted the LN sales enough for it to get a 2nd season. :C

[James Rye]

Looks like Youjo Senki might get a 2nd season after all, despite being out only shortly it outdid all other series from last season expect Konosuba2. Look at the numbers here:

>14,241　この素晴らしい世界に祝福を! 2
>*6,680　幼女戦記
>+4,925　銀魂.
>*4,232　MARGINAL#4　KISSから創造るBig　Bang
>*4,168　小林さんちのメイドラゴン
>*4,119　弱虫ペダル NEW GENERATION
>*3,978　ACCA13区監察課
>*3,851　ガウリールドロップアウト
>*3,463　青の祓魔師 京都不浄王篇
>*3,294　リトルウィッチアカデミア
>*2,994　亜人ちゃんは語りたい
>*1,971　風夏
>*1,464　SUPER LOVERS 2
>*1,179　政宗くんのリベンジ
>*1,067　セイレン
>*1,059　うらら迷路帖
>**,781　クズの本懐
>**,756　スクールガールストライカーズ Animation Channel
>**,387　Chaos;Child
>**,380　ハンドシェイカー
>**,371　あいまいみー ～Surgical Friends～
>**,273　南鎌倉高校女子自転車部
>**,263　AKIBA’S TRIP -THE ANIMATION-
>**,213　アイドル事変
>**,134　エルドライブ【elDLIVE】

2nd one is Youjo Senki and it sales will still rise if I had to guess over the next weeks. Could get over 10k in a month maybe.

[Toukairin]

Having finally seen the whole series after I was recommended to have a look at it in full English, I must say that I really enjoyed it from start to finish. It's interesting to see how such anti-hero actually thinks to survive in such a big mess.

Being a fan of authenticity, I was satisfied with the research done on most individual weapons used by all sides. However, I keep wondering why the M1 Garand and the SIG MKMS figure in this although way earlier than their official entry into service. In my opinion, M1903 Springfield rifles modified with Pedersen devices would have filled the part of being semi-automatic rifles that can deliver a high volume of fire. I also read that the British Royal Flying Corps used semi-automatic Farquhar-Hill rifles, and those could have been used by Allied Kingdom mages.

As for Panzer III tanks and V1 rockets, it's very wear to see them. However, I can understand their (anachronistic) inclusion since they could be considered as machines built by that mad scientist, Adelheid von Schugel.