Danganronpa 3: Future Arc - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[DMurphy]

So, AC-Phoenix, despite how you confidently said that there were definitely drugs and poisons that could make someone appear dead to anything but medical equipment, you don't actually know that. That's just something you believe without any evidence.

-- Also, sorry, the sentence 'oh, that real corpse was actually technically a fake corpse' is just patently absurd. An actual corpse is, by definition, not a fake corpse. Nor is someone who's alive and just lying still with some blood on them. As it turns out, words have meanings.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

So, AC-Phoenix, despite how you confidently said that there were definitely drugs and poisons that could make someone appear dead to anything but medical equipment, you don't actually know that. That's just something you believe without any evidence.

Because there are no poisons or medivines out in the world causing paralysis, low pulse or medicine that can put you in an artificial coma.

As for non dead people believed dead (although not deliberate faking)
But of course Kirigiri, whose deductions are far away from being without fault can differ what made doctors throughout the ages put people in coffins whwere they suffered a slow death from suffocation.
Last known case of someone having almost been suffered premature burial was 2005 in the US, while someone actually suffered that in 2014. (source wikipedia).

2014 - and you want to tell me that Kirigiri can distinguish that from actual death when certified doctors in the US couldn't even with the help of medical equipment in 2005?

Originally Posted by DMurphy

-- Also, sorry, the sentence 'oh, that real corpse was actually technically a fake corpse' is just patently absurd. An actual corpse is, by definition, not a fake corpse. Nor is someone who's alive and just lying still with some blood on them. As it turns out, words have meanings.

Ad a) And yet, the corpse's identity was fake, thus making it a fake corpse of person X, as they were still alive. hence fake.

Ad b) And yet all the surviving students believed it to be a corpse, while it actually wasn't. hence technically a fake corpse.

[DMurphy]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Because there are no poisons or medivines out in the world causing paralysis, low pulse or medicine that can put you in an artificial coma.

As for non dead people believed dead (although not deliberate faking)
But of course Kirigiri, whose deductions are far away from being without fault can differ what made doctors throughout the ages put people in coffins whwere they suffered a slow death from suffocation.
Last known case of someone having almost been suffered premature burial was 2005 in the US, while someone actually suffered that in 2014. (source wikipedia).

2014 - and you want to tell me that Kirigiri can distinguish that from actual death when certified doctors in the US couldn't even with the help of medical equipment in 2005?

Generally, people with paralysis or in artificial comas still have pulses and still breathe, and 'low pulse' doesn't mean 'undetectable pulse and undetectable breathing' -- oh, and 'body temperature low enough to be consistent with a corpse.'

I wouldn't say 'doctors in the US sometimes bury people incorrectly!' is a good argument, because -- so what, the US has incompetent doctors, that isn't news.

Ad a) And yet, the corpse's identity was fake, thus making it a fake corpse of person X, as they were still alive. hence fake.

Ad b) And yet all the surviving students believed it to be a corpse, while it actually wasn't. hence technically a fake corpse.

The problem here is that a) Nobody outside of this conversation would ever refer to either of those things as a fake corpse, you are stretching the definition of the term to the point of nonsense. I don't honestly believe even you would refer to either of those things as a fake corpse, except you hadn't misremembered an important plot point and are now clamouring to pretend you didn't.

And b) Even if you weren't, that's not what you meant by fake corpse anyway, is it? What you meant was 'an object which has never been alive and has been made to be indistinguishable from a corpse' not 'the corpse of someone else which has been rendered unrecognisable by fire damage' or 'a completely alive person lying on the floor with their eyes shut and some blood on them.'

[stray]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Given her post death/fake death narration unlikely

Speaking of tropes don't forget that posthumous narration and posthumous characters are things...

Honestly, I really don't get the appeal of Yukizome being alive or the mastermind or whatever.

[Dengar]

I missed the last part of the conversation.

Did we perchance discuss the possibility that the mastermind could already be dead, but the plan doesn't need them alive to succeed?

[DMurphy]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I missed the last part of the conversation.

Did we perchance discuss the possibility that the mastermind could already be dead, but the plan doesn't need them alive to succeed?

We did! That's the viewpoint I've been advocating, re: Chisa.

(Then again, it's entirely possible that Chisa isn't the mastermind at all. It's possible they aren't even in the building. Maybe it's Hiro.)

[Homura7]

Originally Posted by stray

Speaking of tropes don't forget that posthumous narration and posthumous characters are things...

Honestly, I really don't get the appeal of Yukizome being alive or the mastermind or whatever.

Like I said, Thanatos Gambit.

And while we are at it, I'm here to tell you that I found indisputable evidence of my suspicions, and at the same time proof of the existence of an accomplice, or rather, a person unintentionally and unknowingly helping out the killer or forced to work agaisnt his own will. A recurring element in Dangan Ronpa that mirrors Sakura and AI Chiaki.

But alas, I'm not going to share this time. I'm going to save this for the next week

[stray]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

We did! That's the viewpoint I've been advocating, re: Chisa.

(Then again, it's entirely possible that Chisa isn't the mastermind at all. It's possible they aren't even in the building. Maybe it's Hiro.)

The whole Thanatos Gambit (unless Alpha is talking about something different) or unattended game or however you want to put it is sort of an interesting possibility but I dunno how you pull it off without analysis or luck.

...except maybe if you're SHSL gamer.

I guess I'll just go for broke on Nanami as mastermind. At least until next Despair.

[Kitsu Breaker]

Tell me, guys
How if feel that your waifu was tainted by Despair?

[Homura7]

Originally Posted by stray

The whole Thanatos Gambit (unless Alpha is talking about something different) or unattended game or however you want to put it is sort of an interesting possibility but I dunno how you pull it off without analysis or luck.

...except maybe if you're SHSL gamer.

I guess I'll just go for broke on Nanami as mastermind. At least until next Despair.

And this is why I say the killer must be alive. If you want the game to run the way it was intended, then watching from the shadows isn't just enough. The killer would have to make sure there are no mishaps, so the best way is to infiltrate among the survivors without raising any suspicions. But that is still not enough. For the game to run as smooth, someone's cooperation would be also needed. Not as an accomplice per se, but forcing one of the survivors to work for the killer against his own will.

A Thanatos Gambit is when someone is deliberately manipulating things with the only final purpose of either losing or dying at the end of it. A good example of that would be:

Spoiler for Code Geass spoilers:

Lelouch Lamperouge.

[Dengar]

I thought a thanatos gambit usually starts with the mastermind dying, along with them dying being a critical piece of the plan.

[Homura7]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I thought a thanatos gambit usually starts with the mastermind dying, along with them dying being a critical piece of the plan.

It can be at the beggining or at the end. Long term plans often have the mastermind dying at the end. Like the example I wrote above.

[Dengar]

Well like I said, dying actually has to be an important part of the plan. Either the plan revolves around their inevitable death, or their death is actually the cause of some chain of events.

[Golden_Witch]

Am I...the only one who changed his opinion on Tengan?

I thought he was badass old man, but after "How does it feel, knowing that your beloved Yukizome was tainted by despair?" it sounds more like he was mocking Munakata.

That's what I get in hindsight too of other things he said.
"You think you can eliminate despair by starting a war, but that's naive!"
"Is that why you sacrificed Yukizome?"

And after Despair revealed that Junko and Mukuro seem to have been let into HPA due to the board with Jin and Koichi being powerless to turn them down.....

Tengan got super suspicious.

Calling in.

Junko = Big Bad of Danganronpa.
Tengan = Greater Scope Villain.

Ever heard of those terms?

While the Big Bad is directly responsible for the current story — the Big Bad is the villain or situation that the protagonists are attempting to defeat or overcome — a Greater Scope Villain isn't a major force in the plot. They are just responsible for anything evil or fueling at least a part of the fictional setting (how much of it depends on the scale of the Greater Scope Villain's influence) in which the story takes place. A Greater Scope Villain may be the Big Bad's superior, but just as often they're completely unrelated — indeed, a Greater Scope Villain may threaten the Big Bad just as much as they threaten the protagonists. Whatever the relationship between the Big Bad and Greater Scope Villain, the Greater Scope Villain is always Out of Focus — the threat they pose is general and in the background, while the threat posed by the Big Bad is specific and immediate.
This is not a subtrope of Big Bad. A Greater Scope Villain is a more threatening force of evil in the setting and overshadows it, but due to various factors, it is disconnected on a personal level from the main plot, which is caused by the Big Bad.

This fits with, I think it was in UDG, where you can pick up information how the "True Ultimate Despair" resides at the top of the Future Foundation and are accused to be the true puppeteers behind everything that occured.

[Marina2]

^
I don't know, Tengan seemed to surprise with Munakata's reaction to his word.

[Homura7]

I don't think Tengan is to blame. He actually never expected the reveal would drive Munakata bonkers. His words were actually meant to convince him to face the truth and get him to the good side. Too bad it didn't work.

While it sounded arrogant, Tengan only wanted Munakata to realize that if he remained hellbent on destroying Despair, that isn't going to lead to any good results.

This exchange says it all:

Munakata: What about it? Did you really think that would be enough to make me waver?
Tengan: *shocked* Munakata...

Tengan's last words meant for someone (who is not Naegi) before dying showed he had learned from the mistakes of the past. His final message is also him passing (entrusting) the torch.

With that said, he obviously isn't free of any guilt. It's clear Tengan gets part of the blame for all the corruption at Hope's Peak, as former Headmaster.

[Homura7]

The end is nigh, and even now I still question: what is the real purpose of this game?

For starters, the hallmarks of Junko's games are totally absent. Unlike the previous games, this one seems to have been arranged with a specific final purpose to achieve. Even Monokuma is but a mere extra in the grand scheme of things, having no physical presence at all.

Whoever is responsible seems to be hellbent on exterminating the majority of the members of the Future Foundation, and stop killing at some point.

[Nvis]

I feel Mitarai is an unwilling accomplice. Chisa could easily blackmail him since his "work" help caused the Tragedy.

[Dengar]

With all the lack of foreshadowing, I sure hope the final explanation will leave me in a WTF?!? state for weeks.

[Homura7]

I'm pretty sure the foreshadowing is all there, in really high quantities. But when you are watching the show you never consider certain things and events as foreshadowing, let alone when you are unsure on who is the culprit.